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Let's use the GPU to speed up POV-Ray!
http://www.cgarchitect.com/news/SIGGRAPH-2009-CHAOS-GROUP-GPU.shtml
</Saul>
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Understanding the structure of the universe
via religion is like understanding the
structure of computers via Tron.
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Darren New schrieb:
> Let's use the GPU to speed up POV-Ray!
>
> http://www.cgarchitect.com/news/SIGGRAPH-2009-CHAOS-GROUP-GPU.shtml
Quite impressive. Seems better suited to speed up MCPov than POV-Ray
though :-P
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Actually not bad, for having a single primitive type and an extremely
simplified test scene :)
BTW, one thing I've always disliked about many GI renderers is the need
to perform multiple passes to get rid of the speckles. POV's method of
a single, high quality pass is, I believe, much to be preferred.
...Chambers
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Chambers wrote:
> Actually not bad, for having a single primitive type and an extremely
> simplified test scene :)
The test scenes later in the video (I admit it's tedious to watch it
straight thru) are quite complex.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Understanding the structure of the universe
via religion is like understanding the
structure of computers via Tron.
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Chambers schrieb:
> Actually not bad, for having a single primitive type and an extremely
> simplified test scene :)
>
> BTW, one thing I've always disliked about many GI renderers is the need
> to perform multiple passes to get rid of the speckles. POV's method of
> a single, high quality pass is, I believe, much to be preferred.
For real-time rendering the multi-pass approach is much better suited
though: Just re-starting the render whenever the user pans or dollys
around gives you a simple and low-latency way of trading speed vs. quality.
I don't think it matters much /how/ a good-quality render is achieved,
provided that it is achieved in due time. I'd actually prefer a coarse
speckled preview over being able to quickly see the top-left corner in
full quality :-), and the only reason why I prefer POV-Ray over MCPov is
that I think POV-Ray in most cases gives almost the same quality in much
shorter time (due to the caching of data), and that I find MCPov hard to
set up (due to the inevitable hassle with portals because it doesn't
support POV-Ray's classic lighting model).
And strictly speaking, POV-Ray can't do GI in a single pass either: It
needs radiosity pretrace to achieve any reasonable quality.
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Darren New <dne### [at] san rrcom> wrote:
> Let's use the GPU to speed up POV-Ray!
>
> http://www.cgarchitect.com/news/SIGGRAPH-2009-CHAOS-GROUP-GPU.shtml
Completely mindblowing, specially the later scenes! o_O That's why V-Ray is top
today, without even resorting to unbiased algorithms.
I can also see real-time raytracing in nextgen game engines sooner than
expected.
> </Saul>
huh?
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nemesis wrote:
>> </Saul>
> huh?
An indication that I wasn't being serious about POV-Ray implementing it.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Understanding the structure of the universe
via religion is like understanding the
structure of computers via Tron.
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nemesis schrieb:
> Completely mindblowing, specially the later scenes! o_O That's why V-Ray is top
> today, without even resorting to unbiased algorithms.
Sure it's unbiased? Looks like a monte-carlo approach to me.
>
> I can also see real-time raytracing in nextgen game engines sooner than
> expected.
Yup. Though gamers will need to get used to the noisy images when they
move... which is virtually constantly :-P.
The game engine designers will also need to find a way to not fully
re-render a scene just because /something/ in it moved.
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clipka wrote:
> Yup. Though gamers will need to get used to the noisy images when they
> move... which is virtually constantly :-P.
There's already noise in images. It just shows up as a lack of detail,
instead. (Of course, you'd probably have both, since they're coming from
different causes.)
> The game engine designers will also need to find a way to not fully
> re-render a scene just because /something/ in it moved.
I wouldn't think that's difficult, if you're doing GI to start with.
Certainly only the stuff you didn't see before would need to be re-rendered.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Understanding the structure of the universe
via religion is like understanding the
structure of computers via Tron.
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Darren New schrieb:
>> The game engine designers will also need to find a way to not fully
>> re-render a scene just because /something/ in it moved.
>
> I wouldn't think that's difficult, if you're doing GI to start with.
> Certainly only the stuff you didn't see before would need to be
> re-rendered.
... and that space where /something/ was before.
And anything that could possibly be affected by the resulting change in GI.
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clipka <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:
> nemesis schrieb:
> > Completely mindblowing, specially the later scenes! o_O That's why V-Ray is top
> > today, without even resorting to unbiased algorithms.
>
> Sure it's unbiased? Looks like a monte-carlo approach to me.
At least until very recently V-Ray used regular biased backwards raytracing with
photon mapping, except incredibly optimized. Perhaps those speckles in the
video have simply something to do with the GPU calculating an insane amount of
rays and rendering pixels out of order?
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On Sun, 23 Aug 2009 21:22:17 -0400, nemesis wrote:
> clipka <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:
>> nemesis schrieb:
>> > Completely mindblowing, specially the later scenes! o_O That's why
>> > V-Ray is top today, without even resorting to unbiased algorithms.
>>
>> Sure it's unbiased? Looks like a monte-carlo approach to me.
>
> At least until very recently V-Ray used regular biased backwards
> raytracing with photon mapping, except incredibly optimized. Perhaps
> those speckles in the video have simply something to do with the GPU
> calculating an insane amount of rays and rendering pixels out of order?
IIRC, the ray depth was only set to 5 in those videos, wasn't it?
Jim
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clipka wrote:
> ... and that space where /something/ was before.
Oh yeah. I guess I was thinking too much of the static scenes they showed
and not enough about actual, you know, video games. :-)
Hey! Myst! ;-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Understanding the structure of the universe
via religion is like understanding the
structure of computers via Tron.
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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Aug 2009 21:22:17 -0400, nemesis wrote:
>
> > clipka <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:
> >> nemesis schrieb:
> >> > Completely mindblowing, specially the later scenes! o_O That's why
> >> > V-Ray is top today, without even resorting to unbiased algorithms.
> >>
> >> Sure it's unbiased? Looks like a monte-carlo approach to me.
> >
> > At least until very recently V-Ray used regular biased backwards
> > raytracing with photon mapping, except incredibly optimized. Perhaps
> > those speckles in the video have simply something to do with the GPU
> > calculating an insane amount of rays and rendering pixels out of order?
>
> IIRC, the ray depth was only set to 5 in those videos, wasn't it?
hmm, but they appear even when there's no glass around. ;)
It cleans up pretty quickly anyway. Ok, not yet there for games, but for
real-time architectural visualization, this is nuts. Can only wonder some GPU
iterations ahead... XD
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On Sun, 23 Aug 2009 22:23:07 -0400, nemesis wrote:
>> IIRC, the ray depth was only set to 5 in those videos, wasn't it?
>
> hmm, but they appear even when there's no glass around. ;)
Yeah, true....
> It cleans up pretty quickly anyway. Ok, not yet there for games, but
> for real-time architectural visualization, this is nuts. Can only
> wonder some GPU iterations ahead... XD
Well, and one thing from the demo was that the card in use was described
as "not the high-end option" (words to that effect).
Jim
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nemesis schrieb:
> At least until very recently V-Ray used regular biased backwards raytracing with
> photon mapping, except incredibly optimized. Perhaps those speckles in the
> video have simply something to do with the GPU calculating an insane amount of
> rays and rendering pixels out of order?
Well, maybe they're artifacts of the photon mapping; that would appear
to be quite fitting.
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Jim Henderson schrieb:
> Well, and one thing from the demo was that the card in use was described
> as "not the high-end option" (words to that effect).
I actually happen to have that same GPU (GeForce 285) in my machine. I
went for that particular graphics card /because/ I didn't intend to get
the heaviest weapon out there, rather just some decent graphics power
for a decent price (something to do some fluent Wings3D or Poser work
with) - so I guess there's heavier artillery /already/ in both the
gamers' and CG professionals' arsenals.
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clipka wrote:
> nemesis schrieb:
>> At least until very recently V-Ray used regular biased backwards
>> raytracing with
>> photon mapping, except incredibly optimized. Perhaps those speckles
>> in the
>> video have simply something to do with the GPU calculating an insane
>> amount of
>> rays and rendering pixels out of order?
>
> Well, maybe they're artifacts of the photon mapping; that would appear
> to be quite fitting.
They're artifacts of forward based monte-carlo GI.
The idea is something along the lines of, every time you need to take a
light sample, you just shoot one randomly (rather than POV's method of
using many surrounding samples) and deal with it. Thus, the speckles.
The next step is to re-render the scene, and average the results with
the previous. For this reason, images rendered in this manner show a
full scene quite quickly but with horrible quality, while the longer you
leave them running the more they resolve into high quality images.
You can see this in the video as things get really crappy when they move
the camera, and resolve into higher quality when they don't.
...Chambers
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> Let's use the GPU to speed up POV-Ray!
>
> http://www.cgarchitect.com/news/SIGGRAPH-2009-CHAOS-GROUP-GPU.shtml
If that's MCPov quality output (it's hard to tell from that video alone)
then it's pretty awesome speed. The models used in the video there are
pretty huge in terms of triangle-count, it seems they have a pretty
efficient GPU GI renderer there :-)
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> They're artifacts of forward based monte-carlo GI.
>
> The idea is something along the lines of, every time you need to take a
> light sample, you just shoot one randomly (rather than POV's method of
> using many surrounding samples) and deal with it. Thus, the speckles.
>
> The next step is to re-render the scene, and average the results with
> the previous. For this reason, images rendered in this manner show a
> full scene quite quickly but with horrible quality, while the longer you
> leave them running the more they resolve into high quality images.
>
> You can see this in the video as things get really crappy when they move
> the camera, and resolve into higher quality when they don't.
Maybe now we'll start seeing games with a "night vision mode" that
actually works the same way as real night vision? (I.e., not just a
normal render pass with a noise filter applied afterwards.)
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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> http://www.cgarchitect.com/news/SIGGRAPH-2009-CHAOS-GROUP-GPU.shtml
"Express Install is not supported on this operating system. To upgrade,
please visit: Flash Player Download Center."
I'm wondering if they are proud about being approximately the only
website in the entire internet which doesn't work in Linux.
--
- Warp
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On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 11:59:31 -0400, Warp wrote:
> I'm wondering if they are proud about being approximately the only
> website in the entire internet which doesn't work in Linux.
Worked fine here on openSUSE 11.1.
Jim
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Warp wrote:
> Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>> http://www.cgarchitect.com/news/SIGGRAPH-2009-CHAOS-GROUP-GPU.shtml
>
> "Express Install is not supported on this operating system. To upgrade,
> please visit: Flash Player Download Center."
>
> I'm wondering if they are proud about being approximately the only
> website in the entire internet which doesn't work in Linux.
>
Huh? They do have a flash-video there, but that doesn't mean the page
doesn't work on Linux. Heck, I can see the page.
Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090705
SeaMonkey/1.1.17
-Aero
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Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
> Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> > http://www.cgarchitect.com/news/SIGGRAPH-2009-CHAOS-GROUP-GPU.shtml
>
> "Express Install is not supported on this operating system. To upgrade,
> please visit: Flash Player Download Center."
>
> I'm wondering if they are proud about being approximately the only
> website in the entire internet which doesn't work in Linux.
>
> --
> - Warp
Worked fine on Ubuntu last night. No, I don't dig flash either, still...
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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 11:59:31 -0400, Warp wrote:
> > I'm wondering if they are proud about being approximately the only
> > website in the entire internet which doesn't work in Linux.
> Worked fine here on openSUSE 11.1.
How? It refuses to play here. It just gives that message.
--
- Warp
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Eero Ahonen <aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid> wrote:
> Huh? They do have a flash-video there, but that doesn't mean the page
> doesn't work on Linux. Heck, I can see the page.
The text in that page is not very helpful, nor the core content.
--
- Warp
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nemesis <nam### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> Worked fine on Ubuntu last night. No, I don't dig flash either, still...
Flash is not the problem. All flash sites I know of work just fine.
Well, except this one.
--
- Warp
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Warp escreveu:
> nemesis <nam### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>> Worked fine on Ubuntu last night. No, I don't dig flash either, still...
>
> Flash is not the problem. All flash sites I know of work just fine.
> Well, except this one.
>
that's weird. BTW, I just followed the link now on Firefox on Vista and
it says it requires Flash 10 to play. Perhaps you just need to upgrade.
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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Warp wrote:
> "Express Install is not supported on this operating system. To upgrade,
> please visit: Flash Player Download Center."
That's not what it means. "Express Install" is Adobe's marketing-speak for
"custom downloader with lots of stupid branding on the screen." They're
saying "Sorry, we haven't ported our downloader to your OS, you'll have to
use FTP or HTTP." :-)
Be happy about it!
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Understanding the structure of the universe
via religion is like understanding the
structure of computers via Tron.
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clipka escreveu:
> Jim Henderson schrieb:
>> Well, and one thing from the demo was that the card in use was
>> described as "not the high-end option" (words to that effect).
>
> I actually happen to have that same GPU (GeForce 285) in my machine. I
> went for that particular graphics card /because/ I didn't intend to get
> the heaviest weapon out there, rather just some decent graphics power
> for a decent price (something to do some fluent Wings3D or Poser work
> with) - so I guess there's heavier artillery /already/ in both the
> gamers' and CG professionals' arsenals.
Not to mention it is hinted in the video that it'd be possible to use
more than one GPU at the same time. CG artists will run amok... XD
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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Chambers escreveu:
> clipka wrote:
>> nemesis schrieb:
>>> At least until very recently V-Ray used regular biased backwards
>>> raytracing with
>>> photon mapping, except incredibly optimized. Perhaps those speckles
>>> in the
>>> video have simply something to do with the GPU calculating an insane
>>> amount of
>>> rays and rendering pixels out of order?
>>
>> Well, maybe they're artifacts of the photon mapping; that would appear
>> to be quite fitting.
>
> They're artifacts of forward based monte-carlo GI.
isn't Photon Mapping a forward-based monte-carlo GI technique itself?
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 12:16:00 -0400, Warp wrote:
> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 11:59:31 -0400, Warp wrote:
>
>> > I'm wondering if they are proud about being approximately the only
>> > website in the entire internet which doesn't work in Linux.
>
>> Worked fine here on openSUSE 11.1.
>
> How? It refuses to play here. It just gives that message.
It just worked here. I have the latest version of Flash installed from
the Adobe website.
But I just visited the page, told noscript to allow scripts on the page,
and it just worked. No magic or anything. :-)
Jim
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nemesis schrieb:
>>> Well, maybe they're artifacts of the photon mapping; that would
>>> appear to be quite fitting.
>>
>> They're artifacts of forward based monte-carlo GI.
>
> isn't Photon Mapping a forward-based monte-carlo GI technique itself?
I guess it does qualify.
Well, it's a bidirectional approach actually; but I can't possibly
imagine that VRay would use /full-fledged/ forward tracing either.
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clipka escreveu:
> nemesis schrieb:
>>>> Well, maybe they're artifacts of the photon mapping; that would
>>>> appear to be quite fitting.
>>>
>>> They're artifacts of forward based monte-carlo GI.
>>
>> isn't Photon Mapping a forward-based monte-carlo GI technique itself?
>
> I guess it does qualify.
>
> Well, it's a bidirectional approach actually; but I can't possibly
> imagine that VRay would use /full-fledged/ forward tracing either.
Mental Ray and V-Ray use essentially the photon mapping technique, not
just for caustics.
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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clipka <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:
> Jim Henderson schrieb:
> > Well, and one thing from the demo was that the card in use was described
> > as "not the high-end option" (words to that effect).
>
> I actually happen to have that same GPU (GeForce 285) in my machine. I
> went for that particular graphics card /because/ I didn't intend to get
> the heaviest weapon out there, rather just some decent graphics power
> for a decent price (something to do some fluent Wings3D or Poser work
> with) - so I guess there's heavier artillery /already/ in both the
> gamers' and CG professionals' arsenals.
While not the fastest card out there, it still costs more than *any* video card
offered by AMD. It's a pretty heavy hitter for a single card setup.
....Chambers
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> Let's use the GPU to speed up POV-Ray!
>
> http://www.cgarchitect.com/news/SIGGRAPH-2009-CHAOS-GROUP-GPU.shtml
There's a better version here for download which is an actual screen-cap
rather than from a camera:
http://www.spot3d.com/vrayrt/gpu20090725.mov
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Warp wrote:
> Eero Ahonen <aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid> wrote:
>> Huh? They do have a flash-video there, but that doesn't mean the page
>> doesn't work on Linux. Heck, I can see the page.
>
> The text in that page is not very helpful, nor the core content.
>
I had the same problem. I used Firebug to replace the <embed> tag's src
attribute to the real swf instead of the expressinstall crap.
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