Computer Weekly, 26 May - 1 June 2009

[Um, why am I still receiving this junk?]

Page 14

"Average salaries on offer to permanent staff in Q1 2009:

IT Director: £101,240
Management/systems consultant: £68,100
Systems development manager: £52,468
Database administrator: £39,615
Business analyst: £39,462
Systems administrator: £36,587
Analyst/programmer: £34,759
Operations analyst: £34,591
Operator: £23,810
PC support: £22,583"

This raises many interesting questions. (E.g., what the hell is an 
"operator"? Do you realise that "analyst" and "programmer" are two 
wildly different job titles? What does a "database administrator" 
actually do all day?)

But for me, the really significant part is that only the two lowliest 
jobs on the list pay less than *twice* my current salary. O_O


Also entertaining is page 15, where there's a chart showing demand for 
various IT skills. Every item on the list has gone down by roughly 50%, 
with the following exceptions:

   HTML -5%
   JavaScript +7%
   Linux -23%
   PHP +10%
   AJAX +1%

Insert conclusions here. ;-)

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On 15-6-2009 16:45, Invisible wrote:

> Insert conclusions here. ;-)

You pay a lot for staying with your mother.

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Invisible wrote:
> Insert conclusions here. ;-)

Conclusion: Open source commoditizes the market for everything where you 
actually wind up distributing the object code, so companies are shifting 
over to software-as-a-service to avoid that.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Insanity is a small city on the western
   border of the State of Mind.

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Darren New wrote:

> Conclusion: Open source commoditizes the market for everything where you 
> actually wind up distributing the object code, so companies are shifting 
> over to software-as-a-service to avoid that.

Question: Is "commoditizes" actually a word? WTF does it mean??

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Invisible wrote:
> Question: Is "commoditizes" actually a word? WTF does it mean??

Commodity (n): Undifferentiated goods characterized by a low profit margin, 
as distinguished from branded products.

Like gold, or oil, or soybeans. You don't really care which mining company 
found your gold, or which oil field your oil came from. Similarly, you don't 
really care *who* gave you your web server or emacs binary, because there 
are thousands of places to get the exact same thing, all for the same price.

However, there's only one place to get gmail, salesforce[1], or Amazon S3.

[1] Yes, I know they're bust.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Insanity is a small city on the western
   border of the State of Mind.

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> IT Director: £101,240
> Management/systems consultant: £68,100
> Systems development manager: £52,468
> Database administrator: £39,615
> Business analyst: £39,462
> Systems administrator: £36,587
> Analyst/programmer: £34,759
> Operations analyst: £34,591
> Operator: £23,810
> PC support: £22,583"

IME the salary varies much more from company to company rather than from job 
title to job title.  Thus, the best way to get a significant pay rise is to 
move companies :-)

> Insert conclusions here. ;-)

You're not that fussed about earning more money, and you don't like much 
change in your life.

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>> IT Director: £101,240
>> Management/systems consultant: £68,100
>> Systems development manager: £52,468
>> Database administrator: £39,615
>> Business analyst: £39,462
>> Systems administrator: £36,587
>> Analyst/programmer: £34,759
>> Operations analyst: £34,591
>> Operator: £23,810
>> PC support: £22,583"
> 
> IME the salary varies much more from company to company rather than from 
> job title to job title.  Thus, the best way to get a significant pay 
> rise is to move companies :-)

It seems to me that IT job titles vary rather greatly from company to 
company. One company's "programmer" is another company's "business 
analyst". Which is worrying, because those are rather different roles, 
having wildly different responsibilities...

>> Insert conclusions here. ;-)
> 
> You're not that fussed about earning more money, and you don't like much 
> change in your life.

I meant about everything being in decline except web-related 
technologies. :-P

I'm not quite sure how you get from "I can't get a better job" to "I 
don't want a better job"...

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> It seems to me that IT job titles vary rather greatly from company to 
> company. One company's "programmer" is another company's "business 
> analyst".

Yeh that too, which makes it even harder to compare your salary with surveys 
like this.

> Which is worrying, because those are rather different roles, having wildly 
> different responsibilities...

I think the job roles do actually vary quite significantly.  In Engineering 
at least, one company's "Engineer" can be sat there all day at his desk 
making drawings of product designs, while at another company an "Engineer" 
would be running the project, organising testing and tooling schedules, 
working with customers and suppliers, and doing drawings as a minor task.  I 
suspect it's the same for software, the breadth of the role of "programmer" 
probably varies hugely from company to company, most likely depending on the 
size of the company.

> I'm not quite sure how you get from "I can't get a better job" to "I don't 
> want a better job"...

Well if you are only looking for jobs involving Haskell programming within 5 
miles of your mum's house you're not going to find much :-)

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scott wrote:
>> It seems to me that IT job titles vary rather greatly from company to 
>> company. One company's "programmer" is another company's "business 
>> analyst".
> 
> Yeh that too, which makes it even harder to compare your salary with 
> surveys like this.

Indeed.

I still think my point stands though: Even the most lowly position 
listed is almost 2x my current salary.

>> Which is worrying, because those are rather different roles, having 
>> wildly different responsibilities...
> 
> I think the job roles do actually vary quite significantly.  In 
> Engineering at least, one company's "Engineer" can be sat there all day 
> at his desk making drawings of product designs, while at another company 
> an "Engineer" would be running the project, organising testing and 
> tooling schedules, working with customers and suppliers, and doing 
> drawings as a minor task.  I suspect it's the same for software, the 
> breadth of the role of "programmer" probably varies hugely from company 
> to company, most likely depending on the size of the company.

Yeah, it seems that way.

Unfortunately, the tiny handful of programmer jobs I've found have all 
been the "you are the entire development team" type.

>> I'm not quite sure how you get from "I can't get a better job" to "I 
>> don't want a better job"...
> 
> Well if you are only looking for jobs involving Haskell programming 
> within 5 miles of your mum's house you're not going to find much :-)

Agreed. But who says that's what I'm doing? :-P

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> I still think my point stands though: Even the most lowly position listed 
> is almost 2x my current salary.

Everyone here knew that already, you've told us many times.

> Unfortunately, the tiny handful of programmer jobs I've found have all 
> been the "you are the entire development team" type.

What's the problem with that, it sounds way more interesting than "sit here 
and program what I tell you to" for the rest of your life.  Besides, you 
might find out that you actually really enjoy some other part of the job (eg 
design, testing, planning etc), and if you are just doing a single task you 
are easily replaceable (and hence not likely to earn as much).

Post a reply to this message

>> I still think my point stands though: Even the most lowly position 
>> listed is almost 2x my current salary.
> 
> Everyone here knew that already, you've told us many times.

I've told you what I earn. I had no idea what anybody else earns...

>> Unfortunately, the tiny handful of programmer jobs I've found have all 
>> been the "you are the entire development team" type.
> 
> What's the problem with that, it sounds way more interesting than "sit 
> here and program what I tell you to" for the rest of your life.  
> Besides, you might find out that you actually really enjoy some other 
> part of the job (eg design, testing, planning etc), and if you are just 
> doing a single task you are easily replaceable (and hence not likely to 
> earn as much).

You have a point of course, but I'd prefer a job that I can actually do 
over a job where I make lots of money. Also, requirements gathering is 
an unsolvable problem, so I want to avoid that to the maximum extent 
possible. (Let's face it, the customer never has any clue what they 
actually want, and by the time you make it they'll have completely 
changed their mind anyway, and they'll simply never be happy no matter 
what you do.) Personally, I prefer knowing exactly what I'm supposed to 
be doing. It beats having to guess...

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Invisible wrote:
> Also, requirements gathering is 
> an unsolvable problem, so I want to avoid that to the maximum extent 
> possible. 

No, it's actually a lot of fun. Very frustrating, but a lot of fun.

The trick is to know that they'll change their mind, and hence (a) not take 
it all too seriously and (b) don't believe anything they say.

It's a very human-to-human kind of job, which I actually guess you'd 
probably be pretty good at.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Insanity is a small city on the western
   border of the State of Mind.

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>> Also, requirements gathering is an unsolvable problem, so I want to 
>> avoid that to the maximum extent possible. 
> 
> No, it's actually a lot of fun. Very frustrating, but a lot of fun.

These are muturally exclusive.

> It's a very human-to-human kind of job, which I actually guess you'd 
> probably be pretty good at.

Sure; given that interacting with humans is the thing I fail at most 
spectacularly.

And you think I wanted to be a programmer WHY...? :-P

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> I've told you what I earn. I had no idea what anybody else earns...

I think last time you posted your salary everybody told you that sort of job 
should be paid way more.

> (Let's face it, the customer never has any clue what they actually want,

Funny, the customers I have worked with know exactly what they want, usually 
slighty more than they know any supplier can manage to encourage development 
and push the technology forwards.

> and by the time you make it they'll have completely changed their mind 
> anyway,

Yes that happens sometimes, you just have to live with it, it's part of the 
job.  Hey customers even *cancel* projects after you've spent several months 
working hard and you get nothing back for that work.

> and they'll simply never be happy no matter what you do.)

Of course not, if they were then another unhappy customer would come along 
and force you to work harder and make a superior product :-)

> Personally, I prefer knowing exactly what I'm supposed to be doing.

Most managers would prefer an employee who can think for themselves rather 
than needing to have everything explained to them like a baby.

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Invisible wrote:
>> No, it's actually a lot of fun. Very frustrating, but a lot of fun.
> These are muturally exclusive.

Only if you take it seriously. You'd think being scared and having fun are 
mutually exclusive, until you go on a roller coaster.

>> It's a very human-to-human kind of job, which I actually guess you'd 
>> probably be pretty good at.
> 
> Sure; given that interacting with humans is the thing I fail at most 
> spectacularly.

I disagree. I think initiating social interactions is something you might 
have trouble with. Being assigned to spend a day talking to a guy about what 
he needs? I suspect you might find that a lot easier.

> And you think I wanted to be a programmer WHY...? :-P

Sadly, it doesn't work that way.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Insanity is a small city on the western
   border of the State of Mind.

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>>> No, it's actually a lot of fun. Very frustrating, but a lot of fun.
>> These are muturally exclusive.
> 
> Only if you take it seriously. You'd think being scared and having fun 
> are mutually exclusive, until you go on a roller coaster.

...and that's why I don't go on roller coasters? :-P

>>> It's a very human-to-human kind of job, which I actually guess you'd 
>>> probably be pretty good at.
>>
>> Sure; given that interacting with humans is the thing I fail at most 
>> spectacularly.
> 
> I disagree. I think initiating social interactions is something you 
> might have trouble with. Being assigned to spend a day talking to a guy 
> about what he needs? I suspect you might find that a lot easier.

Somehow, being threatened, harassed and bullied until I cave in and give 
the customer what they want for free doesn't strike me as my idea of a 
fun job.

>> And you think I wanted to be a programmer WHY...? :-P
> 
> Sadly, it doesn't work that way.

What are you saying? That the job I'm looking for doesn't exist or 
something?

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>> I've told you what I earn. I had no idea what anybody else earns...
> 
> I think last time you posted your salary everybody told you that sort of 
> job should be paid way more.

"way more" is pretty vague. This thing gives me hard numbers. Sure, 
probably somewhat arbitrary numbers, but numbers none the less.

>> Personally, I prefer knowing exactly what I'm supposed to be doing.
> 
> Most managers would prefer an employee who can think for themselves 
> rather than needing to have everything explained to them like a baby.

I, on the other hand, consider it reasonable to be told when I'm 
supposed to be doing, rather than trying to guess. I'm not a mind reader.

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> I, on the other hand, consider it reasonable to be told when I'm supposed 
> to be doing, rather than trying to guess.

You don't guess, you decide intelligently what to do.  Imagine if everyone 
in your company had the same outlook, then the guy at the very top would 
need to decide exactly what each single person in the company should be 
doing :-)

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> Somehow, being threatened, harassed and bullied until I cave in and give 
> the customer what they want for free doesn't strike me as my idea of a fun 
> job.

Don't you have commercial/sales guys who sort out the price of things?  If 
I'm with a customer and they start talking about costs I just tell them I 
only do the Engineering work and they'll have to speak to X to sort out the 
price :-)

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scott wrote:
>> I, on the other hand, consider it reasonable to be told when I'm 
>> supposed to be doing, rather than trying to guess.
> 
> You don't guess, you decide intelligently what to do.  Imagine if 
> everyone in your company had the same outlook, then the guy at the very 
> top would need to decide exactly what each single person in the company 
> should be doing :-)

At one extreme, you say "do whatever the hell you want", and not much 
happens. At the other extreme, you have people micromanaging your time, 
telling you how to do every minute detail. Basically, if my boss has to 
tell me how to implement each line of code, it would be vastly quicker 
for him to just implement it himself.

There has to be a happy medium somewhere in the middle.

What I am saying is that I expect a little bit more guidence than "go 
build a stock control system. Make it control stock." I don't think 
that's unreasonable.

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Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> >> I've told you what I earn. I had no idea what anybody else earns...
> >
> > I think last time you posted your salary everybody told you that sort of
> > job should be paid way more.
>
> "way more" is pretty vague. This thing gives me hard numbers. Sure,
> probably somewhat arbitrary numbers, but numbers none the less.
>

I’d tell you what I earn but I don’t want to depress you.


> >> Personally, I prefer knowing exactly what I'm supposed to be doing.
> >
> > Most managers would prefer an employee who can think for themselves
> > rather than needing to have everything explained to them like a baby.
>
> I, on the other hand, consider it reasonable to be told when I'm
> supposed to be doing, rather than trying to guess. I'm not a mind reader.

You should be told what you are to do in your job description.

Stephen

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> At one extreme, you say "do whatever the hell you want", and not much 
> happens.

Anyone with half a brain would realise that "do whatever the hell you want" 
actually meant "do whatever you want to ensure our IT system is as good as 
possible" (assuming your job was as IT guy or whatever).  If really nothing 
got done then you would be fired.  A decent employee would maybe start by 
questioning other staff (both senior and junior) about the existing IT 
system, checking out the current equipment, planning any improvements they 
thought necessary, etc.  You have to realise that a lot of jobs (and 
managers) do not expect to have to tell you in detail what to do, you should 
be able to just get on with it, and that is seen as a good quality 
everywhere I've worked.

For example, shortly after I started working my manager told me he wanted me 
to make a system to measure the amount of optical distortion caused by 
pressing on a LCD screen, so we could compare different technology 
accurately and not just judge it "by eye".  That's all he told me.  Of 
course once I'd figured out what I thought was the best way to do it I ran 
it past him and got approval to purchase some equipment, but he didn't tell 
me exactly what to do, that's not his job, that's my job.

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Invisible wrote:
> Somehow, being threatened, harassed and bullied until I cave in and give 
> the customer what they want for free doesn't strike me as my idea of a 
> fun job.

It's pretty cool when you realize you actually have all the power. You just 
have to be able to say "Sorry, can't do that" when they ask for six months 
of work next month.

> What are you saying? That the job I'm looking for doesn't exist or 
> something?

I'm saying that programming computers involves tremendous amounts of talking 
to people.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Insanity is a small city on the western
   border of the State of Mind.

Post a reply to this message

>> Somehow, being threatened, harassed and bullied until I cave in and 
>> give the customer what they want for free doesn't strike me as my idea 
>> of a fun job.
> 
> It's pretty cool when you realize you actually have all the power. You 
> just have to be able to say "Sorry, can't do that" when they ask for six 
> months of work next month.

Yeah, sure. Like anybody is going to take no for an answer...

>> What are you saying? That the job I'm looking for doesn't exist or 
>> something?
> 
> I'm saying that programming computers involves tremendous amounts of 
> talking to people.

Talking to people I can handle. Talking to irate customers, I can't.

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scott wrote:
>> Somehow, being threatened, harassed and bullied until I cave in and 
>> give the customer what they want for free doesn't strike me as my idea 
>> of a fun job.
> 
> Don't you have commercial/sales guys who sort out the price of things?  
> If I'm with a customer and they start talking about costs I just tell 
> them I only do the Engineering work and they'll have to speak to X to 
> sort out the price :-)

Price, timescale, functionality... everybody wants more for less.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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scott wrote:
>> At one extreme, you say "do whatever the hell you want", and not much 
>> happens.
> 
> Anyone with half a brain would realise that "do whatever the hell you 
> want" actually meant "do whatever you want to ensure our IT system is as 
> good as possible" (assuming your job was as IT guy or whatever).

Sure. But if your job is to write programs for end customers, you're 
going to need some idea of what the customer is paying for.

> You have to 
> realise that a lot of jobs (and managers) do not expect to have to tell 
> you in detail what to do, you should be able to just get on with it, and 
> that is seen as a good quality everywhere I've worked.

Sure. But you've got to have some idea what project you're working on, 
right?

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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> Sure. But if your job is to write programs for end customers, you're going 
> to need some idea of what the customer is paying for.

Don't know how it works for software, but for Engineering projects the main 
documents we usually get from the customer are the specification document 
and the statement of work.  Between those two it's pretty clear what you 
should be doing, and if not you just ask.

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scott wrote:
>> Sure. But if your job is to write programs for end customers, you're 
>> going to need some idea of what the customer is paying for.
> 
> Don't know how it works for software, but for Engineering projects the 
> main documents we usually get from the customer are the specification 
> document and the statement of work.  Between those two it's pretty clear 
> what you should be doing, and if not you just ask.

Right. That I can handle. ;-)

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