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I wrote a little program for my win98 to help lip sync with POV
animations. When it came to make the help file I found my old
Help editor (ElipseHelp) crashed. Then came the long search for a Help
editor that would work on my 98. I'm sick of it! I don't know how many
I've downloading, only to have them crash, or be just plain wrong.
I'm serious thinking of going with a seperate Html file for the Help.
I'm blowing of steam :{ Ah.... That felt good.
If you have any suggustions. I'm listening.....
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Leroy Whetstone wrote:
> I wrote a little program for my win98 to help lip sync with POV
> animations. When it came to make the help file I found my old
> Help editor (ElipseHelp) crashed. Then came the long search for a Help
> editor that would work on my 98. I'm sick of it! I don't know how many
> I've downloading, only to have them crash, or be just plain wrong.
> I'm serious thinking of going with a seperate Html file for the Help.
> I'm blowing of steam :{ Ah.... That felt good.
> If you have any suggustions. I'm listening.....
Personally, I think HTML help files are great, as long as everything is
linked correctly. It's either one extra directory to the index, or one
extra visible folder to look at. A good trade-off, IMO.
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stbenge schrieb:
> Personally, I think HTML help files are great, as long as everything is
> linked correctly. It's either one extra directory to the index, or one
> extra visible folder to look at. A good trade-off, IMO.
I personally am more in for (well-indexed) PDF files.
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clipka wrote:
> I personally am more in for (well-indexed) PDF files.
What the BEEP. I hate PDF files with a passion.
You know what PDF means Pretty Damned F###ed.
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Leroy Whetstone schrieb:
>> I personally am more in for (well-indexed) PDF files.
>
> What the BEEP. I hate PDF files with a passion.
> You know what PDF means Pretty Damned F###ed.
Why is that?
They give a nice, clean, consistent layout on every output device
(including printers). HTML files, on the other hand, always have this
subtle "half-finished" feel to them, no matter how much effort you put
into their design.
And you can easily do a full-text search on a PDF, which is always a
semi-hassle with HTML help files (as they typically don't come in a
single file).
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PDF has the advantage that it looks fantastic when printed out, and the
disadvantage that it generally doesn't look very good on-screen. Being a
paged medium, with (usually) portrate pages while the screen has a
landscape aspect, it's really not very screen-friendly.
HTML has the opposite advantages: it looks terribly when printed out
(I've yet to find any browser anywhere that can print HTML properly),
but it's much easier to work with on-screen. It can use screen-optimised
fonts, you can adjust the font size to look good on your screen, the
text layout automatically matches the window size, and so on.
Of course, PDF has the advantage of being a single, compressed file with
no possibility of broken hyperlinks / missing images / missing fonts /
etc. But for a help file, I'd suggest that HTML is more appropriate.
(Who the hell is going to print out 2,000 pages on actual paper?)
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Leroy Whetstone wrote:
> I wrote a little program for my win98 to help lip sync with POV
> animations. When it came to make the help file I found my old
> Help editor (ElipseHelp) crashed. Then came the long search for a Help
> editor that would work on my 98. I'm sick of it! I don't know how many
> I've downloading, only to have them crash, or be just plain wrong.
> I'm serious thinking of going with a seperate Html file for the Help.
> I'm blowing of steam :{ Ah.... That felt good.
> If you have any suggustions. I'm listening.....
...you want a program that works on Windows 98?
Uh, good luck with that then.
So are you talking about *.hlp or *.chm files? They're different file
formats.
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A few years ago I used the official HTML-Help compiler from Microsoft to
produce help-files.
All you need apart from the compiler is Word or a RTF-Editor. Not very
comfortable, but I once did help files this way.
"Leroy Whetstone" <lrw### [at] joplin com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:4AF### [at] joplincom...
> I wrote a little program for my win98 to help lip sync with POV
> animations. When it came to make the help file I found my old
> Help editor (ElipseHelp) crashed. Then came the long search for a Help
> editor that would work on my 98. I'm sick of it! I don't know how many
> I've downloading, only to have them crash, or be just plain wrong.
> I'm serious thinking of going with a seperate Html file for the Help.
> I'm blowing of steam :{ Ah.... That felt good.
> If you have any suggustions. I'm listening.....
>
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Invisible wrote:
> (I've yet to find any browser anywhere that can print HTML properly),
What you mean is that you've yet to find any HTML properly marked up for
printing.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".
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Invisible schrieb:
> Of course, PDF has the advantage of being a single, compressed file with
> no possibility of broken hyperlinks / missing images / missing fonts /
> etc. But for a help file, I'd suggest that HTML is more appropriate.
> (Who the hell is going to print out 2,000 pages on actual paper?)
Especially with a help file, I might want to do a full text search now
and then.
Screw your 2000+ HTML files.
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> Especially with a help file, I might want to do a full text search now and
> then.
>
> Screw your 2000+ HTML files.
Isn't that what the MS help file format is for? It is basically HTML AIUI,
but it has those "Index" "Search" and "Contents" panels for
search/navigation. If you are using Visual Studio I think there was even
included a tool to build them automatically alongside your code (I never
used it though).
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Darren New wrote:
> Invisible wrote:
>> (I've yet to find any browser anywhere that can print HTML properly),
>
> What you mean is that you've yet to find any HTML properly marked up for
> printing.
Printing? How many HTML files have you seen that are properly marked up
for normal display?! Usually they're just hacked together until IE
displays them properly.
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On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 09:41:25 +0000, Invisible wrote:
> Of course, PDF has the advantage of being a single, compressed file with
> no possibility of broken hyperlinks / missing images / missing fonts /
> etc. But for a help file, I'd suggest that HTML is more appropriate.
> (Who the hell is going to print out 2,000 pages on actual paper?)
Broken hyperlinks is a definite possibility, both internal to the doc and
to external websites.
I've worked with Framemaker enough to know that it's possible to build a
PDF with borken internal document references, though you will get
warnings on that. It doesn't validate external links are valid or not.
Jim
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On 11/4/2009 4:53 PM, stbenge wrote:
> Personally, I think HTML help files are great, as long as everything is
> linked correctly. It's either one extra directory to the index, or one
> extra visible folder to look at. A good trade-off, IMO.
I prefer HTML to PDF too.
Mike
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TC wrote:
> A few years ago I used the official HTML-Help compiler from Microsoft to
> produce help-files.
I know I still have that thing on my computer.
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Invisible wrote:
> ...you want a program that works on Windows 98?
>
> Uh, good luck with that then.
Ya! I know I should up grade. But I'm cheap :)
>
> So are you talking about *.hlp or *.chm files? They're different file
> formats.
Any thing would do. I had a nice *.hlp editor once.
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Invisible wrote:
> (Who the hell is going to print out 2,000 pages on actual paper?)
When I first discovered POV-Ray, I printed out the entire help file. I
don't think it was 2000 pages, but it was a big stack nevertheless :S
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Leroy Whetstone wrote:
> clipka wrote:
>
>> I personally am more in for (well-indexed) PDF files.
>
> What the BEEP. I hate PDF files with a passion.
> You know what PDF means Pretty Damned F###ed.
My biggest problem with PDFs is that people always seem to bloat the
stupid things. They end up taking forever to download. Also, the pages
skip in an annoying way while paging through them.
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clipka wrote:
> Why is that?
Let's see a long long time ago I was in the middle of a then complex
program and I needed some critical information fast. So I found a PDF
with what I wanted on the net. It took for ever to download. I don't
remember what program I used to read it. But I do remember two things
the size of that PDF was out of proportion to the information on it and
it wasn't what I wanted. I hate it. I could have got to 10 web sites
in the time it took me to read that one PDF.
Later when I have some time on my hand I did a little research into
PDF. It was mainly created for secuity. They didn't what someone
changing a file with premission and passing it off as their own work.
It maght be alright for office work, But Who Cares.
>
> They give a nice, clean, consistent layout on every output device
> (including printers). HTML files, on the other hand, always have this
> subtle "half-finished" feel to them, no matter how much effort you put
> into their design.
>
I rearly print anything. If I find something interesting on the net I
download it or bookmark it.
> And you can easily do a full-text search on a PDF, which is always a
> semi-hassle with HTML help files (as they typically don't come in a
> single file).
That's why I liked a will written *.hlp file's index.
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>> ...you want a program that works on Windows 98?
>>
>> Uh, good luck with that then.
>
> Ya! I know I should up grade. But I'm cheap :)
You said it, not me. ;-)
Still, you can only buy Vista or Windows 7 right now... I'm guessing
running that on a PC designed for Win98 wouldn't be much fun. So this is
already starting to look like a fairly expensive proposition.
(Random fact: You can buy Windows 7 for £400, but you can buy a PC with
Windows 7 pre-installed for £150. WTF?)
>> So are you talking about *.hlp or *.chm files? They're different file
>> formats.
>
> Any thing would do. I had a nice *.hlp editor once.
*.hlp is very obsolete, *.chm is still current I think. I'm sure you can
probably download the compiler from MS themselves.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Leroy Whetstone schrieb:
> clipka wrote:
>> Why is that?
>
> Let's see a long long time ago I was in the middle of a then complex
> program and I needed some critical information fast. So I found a PDF
> with what I wanted on the net. It took for ever to download. I don't
> remember what program I used to read it. But I do remember two things
> the size of that PDF was out of proportion to the information on it and
> it wasn't what I wanted. I hate it. I could have got to 10 web sites
> in the time it took me to read that one PDF.
Wait - let me get that straight: You advocate against PDF for inbuilt
help because you have bad experience with it as on-the-net help?
Okay...
>> They give a nice, clean, consistent layout on every output device
>> (including printers). HTML files, on the other hand, always have this
>> subtle "half-finished" feel to them, no matter how much effort you put
>> into their design.
>
> I rearly print anything. If I find something interesting on the net I
> download it or bookmark it.
I'm not just talking about printing - I'm talking about on-screen
appearance, too.
>> And you can easily do a full-text search on a PDF, which is always a
>> semi-hassle with HTML help files (as they typically don't come in a
>> single file).
>
> That's why I liked a will written *.hlp file's index.
That's not native part of HTML. And besides, you can do full text search
in a PDF anytime even if the author did not bother to create a good index.
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stbenge schrieb:
> My biggest problem with PDFs is that people always seem to bloat the
> stupid things. They end up taking forever to download. Also, the pages
> skip in an annoying way while paging through them.
You know that you can configure the way how to page through a document?
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> (Random fact: You can buy Windows 7 for £400, but you can buy a PC with
> Windows 7 pre-installed for £150. WTF?)
I suspect they are not actually the same versions of Windows 7, plus I
assume the PC maker gets a discount for bulk-buying.
BTW I got Windows 7 for £45 from Amazon while they had it on that
pre-release sale :-) I installed it but haven't had time to use it much, I
do *really* like the new way the shortcut bar and running programs at the
bottom are combined together.
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stbenge wrote:
> Invisible wrote:
>> (Who the hell is going to print out 2,000 pages on actual paper?)
>
> When I first discovered POV-Ray, I printed out the entire help file. I
> don't think it was 2000 pages, but it was a big stack nevertheless :S
Duplex?
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>> Personally, I think HTML help files are great, as long as everything is
>> linked correctly. It's either one extra directory to the index, or one
>> extra visible folder to look at. A good trade-off, IMO.
>
> I prefer HTML to PDF too.
As I said before, they are designed for different things.
If you're trying to produce high-quality printed material, PDF is the
natural way to do. It is designed from the ground up to support printing.
For viewing stuff on-screen, PDF isn't such a hot choice. HTML has the
advantage that the text can be reflowed to any screen resolution and
window size. It's specifically designed for on-screen display.
It's about using the right tool for the job.
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>> When I first discovered POV-Ray, I printed out the entire help file. I
>> don't think it was 2000 pages, but it was a big stack nevertheless :S
>
> Duplex?
2000 sides duplex? That would take about a week to print on our office
laser :-) Seriously, the duplex process seems to slow it down from ~40ppm
to 2ppm. If you're printing out a 2000 side document that isn't exactly
100% strictly perfectly work related then it might be an issue...
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>>> When I first discovered POV-Ray, I printed out the entire help file.
>>> I don't think it was 2000 pages, but it was a big stack nevertheless :S
>>
>> Duplex?
>
> 2000 sides duplex? That would take about a week to print on our office
> laser :-) Seriously, the duplex process seems to slow it down from
> ~40ppm to 2ppm. If you're printing out a 2000 side document that isn't
> exactly 100% strictly perfectly work related then it might be an issue...
Heh. *My* laser printer at home doesn't even have a duplexer. If you
want to do this, you have to ask Acrobat to print the odd-numbered pages
in reverse order, feed the stack of pages thus generated back into the
beast, and tell Acrobat to print even-numbered pages in forwards order.
Or is it the other way around? I can never remember...
Notice that *only* Acrobat actually offers the ability to do these
things, as far as I can tell. If you want to print from some other
program... good luck!
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> Heh. *My* laser printer at home doesn't even have a duplexer.
I got one of those ultra-cheap inkjets a couple of years ago and rather
surprisingly that can do duplex - I still haven't quite worked out how it
manages to do it in such a tiny package.
> If you want to do this, you have to ask Acrobat to print the odd-numbered
> pages in reverse order, feed the stack of pages thus generated back into
> the beast, and tell Acrobat to print even-numbered pages in forwards
> order.
>
> Or is it the other way around? I can never remember...
Yeh I remember doing that, you have to make sure you put the stack of paper
back in the right way around, in the right order, and the right way up too.
> Notice that *only* Acrobat actually offers the ability to do these things,
> as far as I can tell. If you want to print from some other program... good
> luck!
MS Word offers it too AFAIK. Programs that don't offer it usually allow you
to type in a page range, for longer documents you could automatically
generate a string like 1,3,5,7,9,... using your favourite method :-)
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>> Heh. *My* laser printer at home doesn't even have a duplexer.
>
> I got one of those ultra-cheap inkjets a couple of years ago and rather
> surprisingly that can do duplex - I still haven't quite worked out how
> it manages to do it in such a tiny package.
Our QA Manager has a little inkjet. Cost £100 and comes with Ethernet
and wireless connectivity. The surprising thing about it is that it's
really, really damned FAST. I've never seen an inkjet so fast!
I think it has duplex too. But then, for £100, it should probably also
make your tea...
>> If you want to do this, you have to ask Acrobat to print the
>> odd-numbered pages in reverse order, feed the stack of pages thus
>> generated back into the beast, and tell Acrobat to print even-numbered
>> pages in forwards order.
>>
>> Or is it the other way around? I can never remember...
>
> Yeh I remember doing that, you have to make sure you put the stack of
> paper back in the right way around, in the right order, and the right
> way up too.
The print path on my printer is reasonably intuitive, so that's not too
hard. (The first pass is in reverse so that the second pass can be in
sequence. So that handles the ordering.)
>> Notice that *only* Acrobat actually offers the ability to do these
>> things, as far as I can tell. If you want to print from some other
>> program... good luck!
>
> MS Word offers it too AFAIK.
I don't think it allows you to select odd/even pages or print them in
reverse order. (I could be wrong, of course.) It allows you to select
ranges, but I don't think it does more than that.
> Programs that don't offer it usually allow
> you to type in a page range, for longer documents you could
> automatically generate a string like 1,3,5,7,9,... using your favourite
> method :-)
How much do you want to bet there's a size limit on the input field? ;-)
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> Our QA Manager has a little inkjet. Cost £100 and comes with Ethernet and
> wireless connectivity. The surprising thing about it is that it's really,
> really damned FAST. I've never seen an inkjet so fast!
Yeh they're pretty fast now, especially for black&white text mine really
pumps out the pages at an impressive rate. Printing photos on maximum
quality is another matter though.
>> MS Word offers it too AFAIK.
>
> I don't think it allows you to select odd/even pages or print them in
> reverse order. (I could be wrong, of course.) It allows you to select
> ranges, but I don't think it does more than that.
Hmmm, I just checked, my MS WOrd 2003 gives you the option for even/odd
pages, but nothing to reverse them. My inkjet printer driver offers a
"print from last page" option though.
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>> Our QA Manager has a little inkjet. Cost £100 and comes with Ethernet
>> and wireless connectivity. The surprising thing about it is that it's
>> really, really damned FAST. I've never seen an inkjet so fast!
>
> Yeh they're pretty fast now, especially for black&white text mine really
> pumps out the pages at an impressive rate. Printing photos on maximum
> quality is another matter though.
Even pictures seem to print pretty fast on this thing. But then again,
that's not at photo-quality...
(My mum's inkjet takes about 20 minutes per sheet if you want
photo-quality on gloss paper.)
>>> MS Word offers it too AFAIK.
>>
>> I don't think it allows you to select odd/even pages or print them in
>> reverse order. (I could be wrong, of course.) It allows you to select
>> ranges, but I don't think it does more than that.
>
> Hmmm, I just checked, my MS WOrd 2003 gives you the option for even/odd
> pages, but nothing to reverse them.
OK, well it does slightly more than I thought then. But still not enough
for manual duplex. (Unless you fancy sorting the pages by hand...)
> My inkjet printer driver offers a "print from last page" option though.
Yeah, some print drivers give you basically nothing, while others let
you print N pages per sheet, do manual duplexing, collate pages, and
make a cup of tea...
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Invisible schrieb:
>> When I first discovered POV-Ray, I printed out the entire help file. I
>> don't think it was 2000 pages, but it was a big stack nevertheless :S
>
> Duplex?
I'd rather have guessed sprocket-feed...
(*Nnjeeeeeeegh! Nnjeeeeeegh! Nnjeeeeegh!*)
Those were the times when you /would/ print out documentation, because
otherwise you'd have to close your work, fire up the text viewer, try to
find the diskette with the documentation file, and ultimately wonder
what you forgot to remember what it was that you wanted to... darn!
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Invisible schrieb:
> Heh. *My* laser printer at home doesn't even have a duplexer. If you
> want to do this, you have to ask Acrobat to print the odd-numbered pages
> in reverse order, feed the stack of pages thus generated back into the
> beast, and tell Acrobat to print even-numbered pages in forwards order.
>
> Or is it the other way around? I can never remember...
... and make sure that you print an even number of pages!
> Notice that *only* Acrobat actually offers the ability to do these
> things, as far as I can tell. If you want to print from some other
> program... good luck!
Heh, *my* laser printer doesn't have any duplex printing hardware
either, but the driver is smart enough to do the even/odd
forward/reverse trick by itself, and give clear instructions how to
insert the printed stack back in the paper tray :-)
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Invisible schrieb:
> (My mum's inkjet takes about 20 minutes per sheet if you want
> photo-quality on gloss paper.)
Let me guess: That's the printer you gave to her at about the same time
when you bought a new one because your older one was too slow :-P
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Invisible schrieb:
> For viewing stuff on-screen, PDF isn't such a hot choice. HTML has the
> advantage that the text can be reflowed to any screen resolution and
> window size. It's specifically designed for on-screen display.
*Designed* for on-screen display? Well, I'd rather say it is a case of
evolution rather than intelligent design :-P
Anyway, I see the reformatting as a disadvantage. PDF does give more
control over how the information is presented, which can help the help
author to make the text formatting more consistent as well as avoid some
layout mishaps, which in turn allows the reader to grasp the information
more easily.
I'd say HTML is a great tool for a bunch of semi-related and inherently
unordered but heavily interlinked pages (I'd say Wikipedia is /the/
killer application for HTML, and actually that's /exactly/ what HTML was
originally invented for), but a poor tool for a coherent and inherently
ordered set of pages like a software documentation.
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clipka wrote:
> Heh, *my* laser printer doesn't have any duplex printing hardware
> either, but the driver is smart enough to do the even/odd
> forward/reverse trick by itself, and give clear instructions how to
> insert the printed stack back in the paper tray :-)
Yes, some print drivers have a crapload of helpful options like that,
and others have absolutely nothing. It varies...
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clipka wrote:
> Anyway, I see the reformatting as a disadvantage. PDF does give more
> control over how the information is presented, which can help the help
> author to make the text formatting more consistent as well as avoid some
> layout mishaps, which in turn allows the reader to grasp the information
> more easily.
I disagree.
> I'd say HTML is a poor tool for a coherent and inherently
> ordered set of pages like a software documentation.
Go spent three hours trying to figure out the 8-page railroad syntax
diagrams in the Oracle PDF manual, then come back to me. Now of course,
if this was HTML, it wouldn't be split across multiple pages. And you
could just directly to the part you're interested in instead of wading
through the irrelevant parts of this "coherent and inherently ordered
set of pages". :-P
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On 11/6/2009 9:38 AM, clipka wrote:
> I'd say HTML is a great tool for a bunch of semi-related and inherently
> unordered but heavily interlinked pages (I'd say Wikipedia is /the/
> killer application for HTML, and actually that's /exactly/ what HTML was
> originally invented for), but a poor tool for a coherent and inherently
> ordered set of pages like a software documentation.
Even better than plain HTML is the HTML Help format used by POV. Because
it comes with a table of contents, index and search feature (though I
rarely use the last one).
Mike
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Invisible wrote:
> I don't think it allows you to select odd/even pages or print them in
> reverse order. (I could be wrong, of course.)
You didn't actually look, did you? :-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".
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scott wrote:
> Hmmm, I just checked, my MS WOrd 2003 gives you the option for even/odd
> pages, but nothing to reverse them.
Under "options". Indeed, you can tell it to reverse order for just the odd
pages, the even pages, or both.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".
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Darren New wrote:
> Invisible wrote:
>> I don't think it allows you to select odd/even pages or print them in
>> reverse order. (I could be wrong, of course.)
>
> You didn't actually look, did you? :-)
Do you know how long it takes to start Word?
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Invisible schrieb:
> Go spent three hours trying to figure out the 8-page railroad syntax
> diagrams in the Oracle PDF manual, then come back to me. Now of course,
> if this was HTML, it wouldn't be split across multiple pages.
Indeed - if it was HTML, you'd probably not have any railroad diagrams
at all...
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Invisible wrote:
> Do you know how long it takes to start Word?
0.75 seconds?
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".
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SharkD schrieb:
> Even better than plain HTML is the HTML Help format used by POV. Because
> it comes with a table of contents, index and search feature (though I
> rarely use the last one).
Yes, /HTML Help/ is quite a lot better than HTML for this purpose.
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Invisible wrote:
> stbenge wrote:
>> Invisible wrote:
>>> (Who the hell is going to print out 2,000 pages on actual paper?)
>>
>> When I first discovered POV-Ray, I printed out the entire help file. I
>> don't think it was 2000 pages, but it was a big stack nevertheless :S
>
> Duplex?
Nah, single-sided if that's what you mean. It was a gross misuse of
company paper and company time :(
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>> Do you know how long it takes to start Word?
>
> 0.75 seconds?
Sure. After all the paging finishes, it probably takes about 0.75
seconds to perform the rest of the startup procedure. ;-)
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Sure. After all the paging finishes, it probably takes about 0.75
> seconds to perform the rest of the startup procedure. ;-)
You need more RAM.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".
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> You need more RAM.
And, ideally, a processor which can handle more than 32 bits at once,
and has more than a single core. And a graphics card who's drivers
aren't messed up.
Don't suppose I'll get any of that though...
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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clipka wrote:
> Leroy Whetstone schrieb:
>> That's why I liked a will written *.hlp file's index.
>
> That's not native part of HTML. And besides, you can do full text search
> in a PDF anytime even if the author did not bother to create a good index.
.hlp is not HTML.
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