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From: Invisible
Subject: Obsolete technology
Date: 24 Apr 2009 11:32:26
Message: <49f1db8a$1@news.povray.org>
Well, yesterday I had a wonderful time, because I had to downgrade a 
perfectly working PC from Windows XP to Windows NT.

When XP first appeared, I regarded NT as lean, simple, fast and stable. 
XP on the other hand was bloated, overcomplicated, buggy and slow.

Well, let us look at the Windows NT installation and setup process, 
shall we?

First you boot from the installation CD. Nothing new there. After a 
moment or two of thrashing the head of the CD drive, you enter a 
text-mode setup program, not unlike the one for XP.

There are a few little gotchas though. Firstly, the setup program 
doesn't comprehend harddrives larger than 8 GB. (!!) Yes, this OS 
predates large HDs. This is from the era where some HDs had a special 
"capacity limit" jumper so as not to confuse MS-DOS or other primitive OSes.

So you can only see 8GB right now. But that's rather moot. You see, you 
can create a partition as large as you like, but you can only *format* a 
partition that is 4 GB or smaller.

The reason? Well, after creating the partition, you select the 
filesystem you want. If you select FAT, the partition is formatted as 
FAT. If you select NTFS, the partition is *still* formatted as FAT and 
then *converted* to NTFS half way through the installation process.

FAT only supports 4 GB partitions, so even though the installer can see 
up to 8 GB of space, you can only use 4 GB of it.

Once formatting has finished (which, on the 80 GB drive I was using, is 
surprisingly fast...), several bazillion tiny files are copied to the 
new partition. The computer then reboots... and enters setup again.

Yes, that's right. You have to remember to remove the install CD or it 
start the installation process again. The Windows XP CD checks whether 
an OS is installed and *prompts* you whether to enter setup if an OS is 
found (and enters immediately if there is no OS yet). But Windows NT 
does not have this refinement; _you_ must remember to yank the CD out 
before the machine reboots.

Once you do this, the machine appears to be booting Windows NT. (For 
those that don't remember, you get a black NT DETECT screen, followed by 
a blue screen that says something like "Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 build 
387273562734 UniProcessor Free 256 MB RAM...") Then the harddrive is 
converted from FAT to NTFS. And then the computer reboots again. (Woe to 
he who put the CD back in already!)

So now the PC is booting *again*, and you get the same blue screen. But 
now a graphical setup program starts up, and immediately demands to 
access the install CD. (Windows XP does this also, but since you 
probably haven't removed the CD in the first place...)

The graphical portion is running at something absurd like 640x480 in 
16-colour mode. It's like a trip back to the Windows 3.11 days. It looks 
nausiating. Each character of text is the size of a small house.

Here XP and NT show there common linage: They are both carefully 
designed so that you *cannot* just answer the installer's questions and 
then come back when it's all finished. Because the installer asks you a 
few things, installs some stuff, and then asks you more questions, then 
does that bit, then pops up more questions. This *forces* you to 
actually stand over the PC for the entire duration of the install.

The very first question is the license key. So I go look that up, 
because I don't remember the answer any more. Then it asks for a name 
and company. (What does it *use* this for anyway??) After a while, we 
get to the "interesting" questions.

For example... what brand of network card do you have?

Ah, maybe you had forgotten? XP is a fully PnP OS, but NT requires you 
to *tell* it what driver to install. Better yet, the Windows NT CD I 
have was pressed about 15 years ago, so just about any imaginable NIC 
you can buy today didn't exist when this CD was pressed. In other words, 
there's no way in hell the driver you need is on the CD.

Regardless, the installer insists on spending 3 minutes building a 
driver list before allowing you to click the "have disk..." button. At 
this point, I switch to a working PC to scour the face of the Internet 
for Windows NT drivers for a VIA Technologies VT6102 Ethernet NIC.

Fortunately this PC used to have Windows NT on it originally, so drivers 
do in fact exist. Unzipping the driver package comes to 2 MB - too large 
for a single floppy. But reading one of the multiple text files tells me 
which *.SYS, *.DLL and *.INF files I need to copy. So I manually make a 
driver disk, and the NT installer seems happy with that.

(It's rather amusing that instead of selecting a network card, you can 
configure a dialup modem at this point...)

After several more questions, the installer finally finishes what it's 
doing. Getting to this point used to take at least an hour back when NT 
was a popular OS. But on the 1.6 GHz AMD Duron I'm using, with it's 80 
GB HD, it's actually pretty fast. Having finished installing, the 
computer reboots *again*.

This time, we get the full Windows NT boot sequence. For some reason, 
this includes a 30-second delay where I can select whether to boot 
normally or in "VGA mode". Anyway, booting up gives me a very low 
resolution login prompt, not unlike Windows XP.

Logging in, the computer is a nightmare to operate. The NumLock is off 
by default. Open a command prompt and it's wider than the entire screen. 
(This makes closing the window "interesting".) But of course, my first 
task is... to install Service Pack 6a, the last one made for this OS. 
Once I eventually remember how to do this [I have the unpacked files on 
one of my servers], it's a fairly simple matter.

[Amoung other things, the OS can now see all 80 GB of the harddrive.]

Having updated, I now want to install the graphics driver. I find the 
Zip file on the server, and unpack it. (Remember, Windows XP can 
automatically handle Zip files, but not NT.) I unpack the files onto the 
machine, and look for a Setup.exe file...

...silly me! This is Windows NT. Under Windows XP, you install devices 
by clicking on Setup.exe (or similar) and pressing [Next] a few times. 
Under Windows NT, things are far more complicated. In this instance, 
installing the device driver is as follows:

1. Open Display Properties.
2. Select Display Type.
3. Select Change Type...
4. Wait 3 minutes for the computer to build a list of obsolete graphics 
cards.
5. Select Have Disk...
6. Point to the *.INF file in the unpacked folder.
7. A dialogue warns you that "This driver is provided by a third party. 
It may or may not work with Windows NT. Your computer may become 
unstable by installing this driver. Do you wish to proceed?" (Um, WTF? 
YES!!)
8. The computer copies a few files, and then *insists* on rebooting.

When the computer boots back up, the NumLock is once again turned off, 
but at least the login prompt is now in 256 colours. (I'm not 
kidding...) Still the same spatial resolution though. But logging in, 
I'm able to set it to true-colour and the resolution of my LCD. Now I 
can turn on "smooth the edges of screen fonts" and "show icons using all 
possible colours". (But you have to reboot for it to take effect.)

[Actually, a dialogue *claims* you must reboot. In reality, logging out 
and back in is sufficient. Note that each time you log out, the screen 
resolution changes back to what it was when the machine first booted. It 
continues to do this until you reboot, where the new resolution becomes 
permanent.]

At this point, I use a registry hack I know to permanently turn on the 
NumLock key.

Ah, but what's this? Could it be...? Yes, it is. It's Internet Explorer 
v1.0. In case you've never seen it, let be describe it. The default 
colour scheme is black text on a 50% grey background. The font is 
Tomahor, with no antialias. The buttons look like something from the 
days of Windows 3 - which they probably *are*! It doesn't support CSS, 
scripting, frames, images... It's an entire world of black text on grey 
backgrouns. The only colour comes from nonstandard <FONT> tags and the 
BGCOLOR attibute.

When you've finished scrubbing your eyeballs out, it's time to try to 
figure out how the **** to update it. Surprisingly, Microsoft's website 
does still host the download. You grab a 2MB file and run it, and it 
proceeds to download a further 12MB of data and install it. (Depending 
on what options you select. Some of them are quite comical. JavaScript 
is *optional*??) So now it's IE 6 SP1. (But there's a slew of security 
updates after that... which I can't be bothered with.)

Now it's time to install Office 97. This is a relatively simple 
procedure. Having installed it, it needs updating to Service Release 2B. 
To do this, you have to open Excel (or whatever) and look up a unique 
serial number from the About box, and type that by hand into the update 
tool. (WTF?) But after that it's quite simple. But you must, of course, 
reboot.

Remember the Office Toolbar? Most buggy application launcher known to 
mankind? Yeah. Great days...

Next it's time to install the device driver for the 8-port serial 
adaptor. Oh great times! I put the CD in and click the "install driver" 
button. It unpacks some files and then exists. Doesn't even tell me 
where it put them. Hunting through the files it dropped, I eventually 
find a README.TXT which tells me how to install the device driver:

1. Open Control Panel.
2. Select Network. (!!)
3. Go to the Adaptors tab.
4. Select Add Adaptor. (So... I'm adding a new network adaptor?!)
5. Select the *.INF file just unpacked.
6. The serial ports show up as a new network device. (WTF?!)

Installing the driver for the GPIB card is even more fun. An installer 
does actually install the driver *for* you. (This is the very first 
driver install that has been automatic.) However, after the driver is 
installed, you must manually *tell* it how many GPIB interfaces you 
have, and what their model numbers are. (!!)

Obviously I don't have this information to hand, so much guessing 
ensues... Mercifully, a test facility as provided, so you can easily 
determine when you've got it right. (I also love the way that you have 
to open certain config windows and then close them without actually 
doing anything, but it doesn't work otherwise...)

In summary... I hope I don't have to do this again in a hurry! Not my 
idea of a fun time. :-P

In fairness, NT was quite a lot faster than XP. But that's about all it 
had going for it.


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From: nemesis
Subject: Re: Obsolete technology
Date: 24 Apr 2009 13:53:36
Message: <49f1fca0@news.povray.org>
Invisible escreveu:
> Well, yesterday I had a wonderful time, because I had to downgrade a 
> perfectly working PC from Windows XP to Windows NT.

Oh!  I thought you finally phoned the girl! XD

> When XP first appeared, I regarded NT as lean, simple, fast and stable. 
> XP on the other hand was bloated, overcomplicated, buggy and slow.

Same as XP vs Vista! :)

> Well, let us look at the Windows NT installation and setup process, 
> shall we?
> 
> First you boot from the installation CD. Nothing new there. After a 
> moment or two of thrashing the head of the CD drive, you enter a 
> text-mode setup program, not unlike the one for XP.

Wow.  And then you guys call Linux install complicated... :P

> So you can only see 8GB right now. But that's rather moot. You see, you 
> can create a partition as large as you like, but you can only *format* a 
> partition that is 4 GB or smaller.

Yes, that sounds fun. ;)

> In fairness, NT was quite a lot faster than XP. But that's about all it 
> had going for it.

Yeah, shame you don't have source available to bump up those limits a 
bit... :P

-- 
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9


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From: Tor Olav Kristensen
Subject: Re: Obsolete technology
Date: 24 Apr 2009 16:17:01
Message: <49f21e3d@news.povray.org>
When you are finished, it would be wise to boot from a Knoppix CD
and connect an external USB HD (sdb) and do this in order to
backup your whole Win NT disk:

   sudo su -
   mkdir /mnt/sdb1
   mount /dev/sdb1 /mnt/sdb1
   dd if=/dev/sda of=/mnt/sdb1/WinNT_backup.img

Remember to first format sdb1 to a file system type that allows
for really big files. (E.g. ext3 or reiserfs)

Now, to restore your NT disk, you only have to do this:

   sudo su -
   mkdir /mnt/sdb1
   mount /dev/sdb1 /mnt/sdb1
   dd if=/mnt/sdb1/WinNT_backup.img of=/dev/sda

-- 
Tor Olav
http://subcube.com


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From: Orchid XP v8
Subject: Re: Obsolete technology
Date: 24 Apr 2009 17:12:39
Message: <49f22b47$1@news.povray.org>
Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:
> 
> When you are finished, it would be wise to boot from a Knoppix CD
> and connect an external USB HD (sdb) and do this in order to
> backup your whole Win NT disk:
> 
>   sudo su -
>   mkdir /mnt/sdb1
>   mount /dev/sdb1 /mnt/sdb1
>   dd if=/dev/sda of=/mnt/sdb1/WinNT_backup.img
> 
> Remember to first format sdb1 to a file system type that allows
> for really big files. (E.g. ext3 or reiserfs)
> 
> Now, to restore your NT disk, you only have to do this:
> 
>   sudo su -
>   mkdir /mnt/sdb1
>   mount /dev/sdb1 /mnt/sdb1
>   dd if=/mnt/sdb1/WinNT_backup.img of=/dev/sda

...or I could use Norton Ghost (which we have a commercial license for). 
Trouble is, by the time I've set everything up, it's loaded with custom 
device drivers and so forth. It would be so much work to get it going on 
another machine that I might as well start from scratch.

But - more to the point - hopefully I will never, ever, have to do this 
again! >_<

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*


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From: Orchid XP v8
Subject: Re: Obsolete technology
Date: 24 Apr 2009 17:15:00
Message: <49f22bd4$1@news.povray.org>
>> Well, yesterday I had a wonderful time, because I had to downgrade a 
>> perfectly working PC from Windows XP to Windows NT.
> 
> Oh!  I thought you finally phoned the girl! XD

Girls are obsolete technology??

(Surely it is *boys* who will shortly become obsolete...)

>> When XP first appeared, I regarded NT as lean, simple, fast and 
>> stable. XP on the other hand was bloated, overcomplicated, buggy and 
>> slow.
> 
> Same as XP vs Vista! :)

Well... not really, no.

>> So you can only see 8GB right now. But that's rather moot. You see, 
>> you can create a partition as large as you like, but you can only 
>> *format* a partition that is 4 GB or smaller.
> 
> Yes, that sounds fun. ;)

IIRC, at the BIOS level you need to use a different interrupt vector or 
something to access larger disks. The original standard used fewer bits 
or something, IDK. It's been such a long time since this was an issue - 
rather like the whole "conventional RAM vs extended RAM" thing.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*


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From: nemesis
Subject: Re: Obsolete technology
Date: 25 Apr 2009 02:28:55
Message: <49f2ada7$1@news.povray.org>
Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> Well, yesterday I had a wonderful time, because I had to downgrade a 
>>> perfectly working PC from Windows XP to Windows NT.
>>
>> Oh!  I thought you finally phoned the girl! XD
> 
> Girls are obsolete technology??

You said you had a wonderful time, but that was just sarcasm... :P


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From: Tor Olav Kristensen
Subject: Re: Obsolete technology
Date: 25 Apr 2009 07:42:27
Message: <49f2f723@news.povray.org>
Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:
...
>>   dd if=/dev/sda of=/mnt/sdb1/WinNT_backup.img
...
> ...or I could use Norton Ghost (which we have a commercial license for). 

Hmmm... Why do companies want to use money on such programs ?


> Trouble is, by the time I've set everything up, it's loaded with custom 
> device drivers and so forth. It would be so much work to get it going on 
> another machine that I might as well start from scratch.
...

But what if the HD breaks ?

-- 
Tor Olav
http://subcube.com


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From: Tor Olav Kristensen
Subject: Re: Obsolete technology
Date: 25 Apr 2009 07:51:17
Message: <49f2f935$1@news.povray.org>
Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:
> Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:
> ...
>>>   dd if=/dev/sda of=/mnt/sdb1/WinNT_backup.img
> ...
>> ...or I could use Norton Ghost (which we have a commercial license for). 
> 
> Hmmm... Why do companies want to use money on such programs ?
> 
> 
>> Trouble is, by the time I've set everything up, it's loaded with 
>> custom device drivers and so forth. It would be so much work to get it 
>> going on another machine that I might as well start from scratch.
> ...
> 
> But what if the HD breaks ?

- or if the PC is rooted ?
- or if the installation is messed up by a virus or an employee ?

-- 
Tor Olav
http://subcube.com


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From: Warp
Subject: Re: Obsolete technology
Date: 25 Apr 2009 08:00:11
Message: <49f2fb4b@news.povray.org>
Tor Olav Kristensen <tor### [at] toberemovedgmailcom> wrote:
> Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> > Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:
> ...
> >>   dd if=/dev/sda of=/mnt/sdb1/WinNT_backup.img
> ...
> > ...or I could use Norton Ghost (which we have a commercial license for). 

> Hmmm... Why do companies want to use money on such programs ?

  If the program breaks, they have someone to call to. No such luck with
free software.

-- 
                                                          - Warp


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From: Tor Olav Kristensen
Subject: Re: Obsolete technology
Date: 25 Apr 2009 08:15:05
Message: <49f2fec9@news.povray.org>
Warp wrote:
> Tor Olav Kristensen <tor### [at] toberemovedgmailcom> wrote:
>> Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:
>> ...
>>>>   dd if=/dev/sda of=/mnt/sdb1/WinNT_backup.img
>> ...
>>> ...or I could use Norton Ghost (which we have a commercial license for). 
> 
>> Hmmm... Why do companies want to use money on such programs ?
> 
>   If the program breaks, they have someone to call to. No such luck with
> free software.

So you are saying that their chances of having the problem fixed in time 
is better if they have paid money for the program ?

-- 
Tor Olav
http://subcube.com


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