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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>
>> Ladies and gentlemen, tonight I went out for a meal. It turns out that
>> my waitress was quite cute, and definitely very friendly. Long story
>> short: I now have her phone number.
>
> Well, it _is_ her number. Unfortunately it's not going to do me much good.
>
> I suggested to her that maybe we could meet up today. Her response was
> that she's trying to "sort things out" with her boyfriend so it's
> "probably not a good idea".
>
> To summarise:
>
> 1. She already has a boyfriend, so she's not going to improve my
> lovelife (e.g., by allowing me to *have* one...)
Besides, would you really want to be boyfriend of a girl who gives her
phone number to any numbface in the cafeteria? :P
not that it's that uncommon!
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> http://basicinstructions.net/?p=322
Gaaaaahahahahaaaaaaaaargh!! >_<
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nemesis wrote:
> Besides, would you really want to be boyfriend of a girl who gives her
> phone number to any numbface in the cafeteria? :P
Maybe she only gave it to me because I'm *special*? :-P
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Invisible escreveu:
> nemesis wrote:
>
>> Besides, would you really want to be boyfriend of a girl who gives her
>> phone number to any numbface in the cafeteria? :P
>
> Maybe she only gave it to me because I'm *special*? :-P
She knew you know Haskell? :P
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] dev null> wrote:
> I suggested to her that maybe we could meet up today. Her response was
> that she's trying to "sort things out" with her boyfriend so it's
> "probably not a good idea".
That sounds like girl code language for something else...
Anyways, you know what they say: If at first you don't succeed...
Next time you'll be more fluent because you already have experience.
--
- Warp
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Warp wrote:
> Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>> I suggested to her that maybe we could meet up today. Her response was
>> that she's trying to "sort things out" with her boyfriend so it's
>> "probably not a good idea".
>
> That sounds like girl code language for something else...
Sounds like "My boyfriend is being a pain in the butt, but not as much a
pain in the butt as finding an entirely new boyfriend."
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
There's no CD like OCD, there's no CD I knoooow!
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Darren New escreveu:
> Warp wrote:
>> Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>>> I suggested to her that maybe we could meet up today. Her response
>>> was that she's trying to "sort things out" with her boyfriend so it's
>>> "probably not a good idea".
>>
>> That sounds like girl code language for something else...
>
> Sounds like "My boyfriend is being a pain in the butt..."
She should try vaseline.
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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>> Sounds like "My boyfriend is being a pain in the butt..."
>
> She should try vaseline.
LMAO!
No pun... ;-)
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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>> I suggested to her that maybe we could meet up today. Her response was
>> that she's trying to "sort things out" with her boyfriend so it's
>> "probably not a good idea".
>
> That sounds like girl code language for something else...
Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. Does it make any difference to me? Not really.
> Anyways, you know what they say: If at first you don't succeed...
>
> Next time you'll be more fluent because you already have experience.
Well... I keep feeling all depressed because I suck at talking to people
and stuff. But you know what? One week I spent 3 hours chatting to an
old friend. And the next week I chatted to a complete stranger and even
got her phone number. That doesn't sound like failure, that sounds
like... well, SUCCESS, actually. So maybe I *don't* suck at talking to
people - maybe it's just that the people I usually have around me are
arseholes?
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Darren New wrote:
> Sounds like "My boyfriend is being a pain in the butt, but not as much a
> pain in the butt as finding an entirely new boyfriend."
Ooo, maybe I could become that friend she trusts and tells all her
problems to, but never actually dates? :-S
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Orchid XP v8 escreveu:
> Well... I keep feeling all depressed because I suck at talking to people
> and stuff. But you know what? One week I spent 3 hours chatting to an
> old friend. And the next week I chatted to a complete stranger and even
> got her phone number. That doesn't sound like failure, that sounds
> like... well, SUCCESS, actually. So maybe I *don't* suck at talking to
> people - maybe it's just that the people I usually have around me are
> arseholes?
Most probably, yes.
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 21:03:12 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>
>> Sounds like "My boyfriend is being a pain in the butt, but not as much
>> a pain in the butt as finding an entirely new boyfriend."
>
> Ooo, maybe I could become that friend she trusts and tells all her
> problems to, but never actually dates? :-S
Maybe. That can be educational, but also can be very frustrating.
BTDTGTTS.
Jim
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On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 21:02:32 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> So maybe I *don't* suck at talking to people - maybe it's just that the
> people I usually have around me are arseholes?
Result! What have we been trying to tell you for the last how-many-years?
Jim
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>> Ooo, maybe I could become that friend she trusts and tells all her
>> problems to, but never actually dates? :-S
>
> Maybe. That can be educational, but also can be very frustrating.
Yes. And given the way my life works, that's where I suspect I'll end
up. :-/
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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>> So maybe I *don't* suck at talking to people - maybe it's just that the
>> people I usually have around me are arseholes?
>
> Result! What have we been trying to tell you for the last how-many-years?
That I can't spell?
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 18:45:22 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> Ooo, maybe I could become that friend she trusts and tells all her
>>> problems to, but never actually dates? :-S
>>
>> Maybe. That can be educational, but also can be very frustrating.
>
> Yes. And given the way my life works, that's where I suspect I'll end
> up. :-/
Well, if anything we can always count on you being pessimistic about
life. ;-)
Jim
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 18:45:41 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> So maybe I *don't* suck at talking to people - maybe it's just that
>>> the people I usually have around me are arseholes?
>>
>> Result! What have we been trying to tell you for the last
>> how-many-years?
>
> That I can't spell?
No, the other thing.... ;-)
Jim
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>> Yes. And given the way my life works, that's where I suspect I'll end
>> up. :-/
>
> Well, if anything we can always count on you being pessimistic about
> life. ;-)
Well that's not entirely true. As you may have noticed, when something
actually goes right for once, I suddenly become very optimistic.
(Perhaps excessively so.) It's just that for the most part, my life is a
failure, so usually I'm pessimistic.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:13:41 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> Yes. And given the way my life works, that's where I suspect I'll end
>>> up. :-/
>>
>> Well, if anything we can always count on you being pessimistic about
>> life. ;-)
>
> Well that's not entirely true. As you may have noticed, when something
> actually goes right for once, I suddenly become very optimistic.
You need to make it less "sudden" and more a way of being. While it is
true that an optimist is likely to be disappointed and a pessimist
surprised, having a more positive outlook tends to be better for one's
mental health.
> (Perhaps excessively so.) It's just that for the most part, my life is a
> failure, so usually I'm pessimistic.
See, you need to stop with statements like "my life is a failure".
That's what we've been saying. And I won't bore you with things like
"you've got a roof over your head, you eat regularly, and you've got a
paying job - and that's much better than a lot of people have" because
that's not generally helpful.
But at the same time, you maybe should admit once in a while that while
you think your life sucks, compared to people whose lives really suck,
you don't have it so bad.
Jim
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>> Well that's not entirely true. As you may have noticed, when something
>> actually goes right for once, I suddenly become very optimistic.
>
> You need to make it less "sudden" and more a way of being.
Easier said than done.
> having a more positive outlook tends to be better for one's
> mental health.
I'm not disagreeing.
>> It's just that for the most part, my life is a
>> failure, so usually I'm pessimistic.
>
> See, you need to stop with statements like "my life is a failure".
> That's what we've been saying.
And what *I* have been saying is that when you repeatedly try to do
things and are greeted only with failure, it makes it really, *really*
hard to remain positive.
Most people fail sometimes, and succeed sometimes. Unfortunately, I fail
almost *all* the time. This is extremely depressing.
(That's probably why I get so hyperactive on the rare occasions where
something actually works...)
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On Fri, 01 May 2009 09:44:45 +0100, Invisible wrote:
>>> Well that's not entirely true. As you may have noticed, when something
>>> actually goes right for once, I suddenly become very optimistic.
>>
>> You need to make it less "sudden" and more a way of being.
>
> Easier said than done.
Nobody said life was easy - there are things one has to work at.
>>> It's just that for the most part, my life is a failure, so usually I'm
>>> pessimistic.
>>
>> See, you need to stop with statements like "my life is a failure".
>> That's what we've been saying.
>
> And what *I* have been saying is that when you repeatedly try to do
> things and are greeted only with failure, it makes it really, *really*
> hard to remain positive.
Oscar Wilde (I think) once said something like "experience is what you
get when you don't get what you want". You do seem to learn from the bad
and you don't give up (as evidenced by your recent success in getting a
phone number), so that's a good thing. That's something to be positive
about.
> Most people fail sometimes, and succeed sometimes. Unfortunately, I fail
> almost *all* the time. This is extremely depressing.
You *feel* you fail almost all the time. That's not the same as actually
failing all the time. Count the success - as in this case - of getting
the phone number, and having the courage to ask for it. That's a win.
The outcome, while clearly not positive - look at that as a secondary. A
step in the right direction is getting over the shy enough to talk to
someone you only normally talk to in her professional capacity.
What it looks like from here is that you're looking at the entire
sequence of events as a total epic failure. It's not. There are small
successes in there and things you should be proud of having done. So it
didn't work out with this one - ultimately, so what? The thing is you
took a chance, and taking chances is what life is all about. That's a
win no matter how you slice it.
> (That's probably why I get so hyperactive on the rare occasions where
> something actually works...)
That's a perfectly reasonable reaction. People get excited when things
go their way or have a positive outcome.
Jim
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> Nobody said life was easy - there are things one has to work at.
As I say, most other people have folks around them to turn to for
support and encouragement. I don't really have that.
>> Most people fail sometimes, and succeed sometimes. Unfortunately, I fail
>> almost *all* the time. This is extremely depressing.
>
> You *feel* you fail almost all the time. That's not the same as actually
> failing all the time. Count the success - as in this case - of getting
> the phone number, and having the courage to ask for it. That's a win.
Sure. It is. But one win doesn't make up for a lifetime of failure.
(What I need to do is figure out the next step. In various areas. But if
I could do that... I would have already taken the next step, several
years ago.)
> What it looks like from here is that you're looking at the entire
> sequence of events as a total epic failure. It's not. There are small
> successes in there and things you should be proud of having done. So it
> didn't work out with this one - ultimately, so what? The thing is you
> took a chance, and taking chances is what life is all about. That's a
> win no matter how you slice it.
I'm quite happy with how it went with this girl. What's depressing the
hell out of me is my repeated attempts to get a job are getting me
nowhere, my repeated attempts to have a social life are getting me
nowhere, my repeated attempts to enjoy myself aren't working... it's
just extremely demotivating when all you experience is failure.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On Fri, 01 May 2009 19:43:44 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> Nobody said life was easy - there are things one has to work at.
>
> As I say, most other people have folks around them to turn to for
> support and encouragement. I don't really have that.
You have that here. Sure, it's not the same as having it in meatspace,
but we actually do exist.
>>> Most people fail sometimes, and succeed sometimes. Unfortunately, I
>>> fail almost *all* the time. This is extremely depressing.
>>
>> You *feel* you fail almost all the time. That's not the same as
>> actually failing all the time. Count the success - as in this case -
>> of getting the phone number, and having the courage to ask for it.
>> That's a win.
>
> Sure. It is. But one win doesn't make up for a lifetime of failure.
It's not "one win". It's one of several wins. You just keep looking at
the results and thinking that all the components that led up to that
point must also be total failures.
> (What I need to do is figure out the next step. In various areas. But if
> I could do that... I would have already taken the next step, several
> years ago.)
You did the next step - to try to make contact. You can't control the
way people will react or the things going on in their lives that may
change their minds about spending time with you.
>> What it looks like from here is that you're looking at the entire
>> sequence of events as a total epic failure. It's not. There are small
>> successes in there and things you should be proud of having done. So
>> it didn't work out with this one - ultimately, so what? The thing is
>> you took a chance, and taking chances is what life is all about.
>> That's a win no matter how you slice it.
>
> I'm quite happy with how it went with this girl. What's depressing the
> hell out of me is my repeated attempts to get a job are getting me
> nowhere, my repeated attempts to have a social life are getting me
> nowhere, my repeated attempts to enjoy myself aren't working... it's
> just extremely demotivating when all you experience is failure.
Like I said, you're not constantly failing, you're taking small steps.
You go out and dance, don't you? That's a social activity, and you sure
don't sound like you're failing there.
You seem to enjoy your music immensely. That sure doesn't sound like a
failure to me.
I remember several months ago (maybe even a year ago) you talked about
meeting with one of your neighbors and having a wonderful time. Have you
gotten together with them again? Have you suggested maybe going for
drinks and a visit?
As for the job search, what have you done in the last few weeks? If I
worked in a place that was as problematic as you've described your
office, I wouldn't rest until I had found something else, no matter how
many job applications I'd submitted and been rejected for. Hell, I *did*
that. I told you about my intolerable job (the one I quit with nothing
to go to and left myself unemployed *on my own* and *away from family and
most of my friends* for three months) and what I did to try to find
another job. I was rejected for job after job - taking time off and
instead of enjoying myself going on interviews to be told "no, you don't
have the right certifications" or "you're overqualified for this
position".
In spite of the continual failure to find something (and I looked for
months before quitting the current job at the time in disgust with
management), I kept looking. I networked with people, and eventually
found something. But it didn't happen overnight, and it didn't happen
with me sitting on my hands and going "oh poor me, my life sucks". I was
absolutely scared shitless that I was going to lose my home (and I nearly
did at that).
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>> As I say, most other people have folks around them to turn to for
>> support and encouragement. I don't really have that.
>
> You have that here. Sure, it's not the same as having it in meatspace,
> but we actually do exist.
I sometimes start to wonder....
>> I'm quite happy with how it went with this girl. What's depressing the
>> hell out of me is my repeated attempts to get a job are getting me
>> nowhere, my repeated attempts to have a social life are getting me
>> nowhere, my repeated attempts to enjoy myself aren't working... it's
>> just extremely demotivating when all you experience is failure.
>
> Like I said, you're not constantly failing, you're taking small steps.
If I was taking small steps, I'd slowly be getting somewhere.
> You go out and dance, don't you? That's a social activity, and you sure
> don't sound like you're failing there.
As far as learning to actually dance... sure, I fail big-style. In terms
of getting along with people... that's a little more successful. But it
doesn't help that I don't really have anything remotely in common with
the people there to start with.
> You seem to enjoy your music immensely. That sure doesn't sound like a
> failure to me.
Unfortunately that generally doesn't impress people very much. (And
let's face it, the whole point of spending months learning to play
something is so that when you play it, people will do "wow, that's awsome!")
> I remember several months ago (maybe even a year ago) you talked about
> meeting with one of your neighbors and having a wonderful time. Have you
> gotten together with them again? Have you suggested maybe going for
> drinks and a visit?
Mmm... for whatever reason, they seem to be disinclined to speak to me
at the minute.
> As for the job search, what have you done in the last few weeks? If I
> worked in a place that was as problematic as you've described your
> office, I wouldn't rest until I had found something else, no matter how
> many job applications I'd submitted and been rejected for. Hell, I *did*
> that.
Just recently I haven't really done anything, due to an extreme lack of
motivation. It's almost impossible to motivate yourself to do something
when failure is 100% guaranteed. Nobody wants the skills I have.
(Assuming I even have them and I'm not just kidding myself.) Jayne was
telling me her husband hasn't had any work for months now - and he has
actual talent. If the talented people can't get work, what chance does
some loser like me stand?
Seriously. I can spent 3 hours looking through thousands of unsuitable
job vacancies hoping to find one that I can actually apply to. I can
apply to three or four of them. And then I can sit there and wait until
I'm fairly sure a reply isn't coming. Or I can sit and do nothing for 3
hours. Both have the same result. Nobody except me will ever know the
difference. Motivation, much?
> In spite of the continual failure to find something (and I looked for
> months before quitting the current job at the time in disgust with
> management), I kept looking. I networked with people, and eventually
> found something. But it didn't happen overnight, and it didn't happen
> with me sitting on my hands and going "oh poor me, my life sucks". I was
> absolutely scared shitless that I was going to lose my home (and I nearly
> did at that).
What's your point? That you're a better human being than me? I think we
already know that.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On Sat, 02 May 2009 09:56:37 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> As I say, most other people have folks around them to turn to for
>>> support and encouragement. I don't really have that.
>>
>> You have that here. Sure, it's not the same as having it in meatspace,
>> but we actually do exist.
>
> I sometimes start to wonder....
Because of course all the hours we spend writing to you don't mean
anything? I've said it before, I don't talk to people I don't like.
From what I've read of yours, I like you. Why do you find that so
difficult to believe?
>>> I'm quite happy with how it went with this girl. What's depressing the
>>> hell out of me is my repeated attempts to get a job are getting me
>>> nowhere, my repeated attempts to have a social life are getting me
>>> nowhere, my repeated attempts to enjoy myself aren't working... it's
>>> just extremely demotivating when all you experience is failure.
>>
>> Like I said, you're not constantly failing, you're taking small steps.
>
> If I was taking small steps, I'd slowly be getting somewhere.
And you are. That is something that is difficult to see from inside your
own head. Trust me, from out here, what I've seen, you've made
significant progress in the last year.
>> You go out and dance, don't you? That's a social activity, and you
>> sure don't sound like you're failing there.
>
> As far as learning to actually dance... sure, I fail big-style. In terms
> of getting along with people... that's a little more successful. But it
> doesn't help that I don't really have anything remotely in common with
> the people there to start with.
That's not really the point. You get a chance to learn about
interactions with people in meatspace, and you enjoy it. That's hardly a
failure.
>> You seem to enjoy your music immensely. That sure doesn't sound like a
>> failure to me.
>
> Unfortunately that generally doesn't impress people very much.
Who cares? You enjoy it, you're impressed by it, that's the important
thing. It's something that brings you happiness, so keep doing it.
> (And
> let's face it, the whole point of spending months learning to play
> something is so that when you play it, people will do "wow, that's
> awsome!")
Having played the violin myself for 15+ years, I can tell you that's not
the only point of learning to play a piece of music. I won't say that
that's not part of the motivation - performance is fun and nerve-wracking
all at the same time.
But the last times I've had my violin out were for myself - it helped me
relax and concentrate on the writing I was doing.
>> I remember several months ago (maybe even a year ago) you talked about
>> meeting with one of your neighbors and having a wonderful time. Have
>> you gotten together with them again? Have you suggested maybe going
>> for drinks and a visit?
>
> Mmm... for whatever reason, they seem to be disinclined to speak to me
> at the minute.
Have you contacted them, or have you been waiting for them to contact
you? If you haven't said anything to them, they may be wondering what's
wrong with THEM.
>> As for the job search, what have you done in the last few weeks? If I
>> worked in a place that was as problematic as you've described your
>> office, I wouldn't rest until I had found something else, no matter how
>> many job applications I'd submitted and been rejected for. Hell, I
>> *did* that.
>
> Just recently I haven't really done anything, due to an extreme lack of
> motivation.
Then one could arguably make the point that your current job doesn't
really suck that much. Having a job that sucks is one of the biggest
motivating factors for people.
> It's almost impossible to motivate yourself to do something
> when failure is 100% guaranteed.
It is if you don't get off your ass and do something about it, that's for
sure. Especially in a contracting economy, jobs don't exactly fall out
of the sky.
> Nobody wants the skills I have.
Bullshit. Just because you haven't found a company that's looking for
your skillset doesn't mean nobody is looking for your skills.
> (Assuming I even have them and I'm not just kidding myself.) Jayne was
> telling me her husband hasn't had any work for months now - and he has
> actual talent. If the talented people can't get work, what chance does
> some loser like me stand?
Everyone has a chance, but you have to TAKE IT and actually look, not
just give up.
> Seriously. I can spent 3 hours looking through thousands of unsuitable
> job vacancies hoping to find one that I can actually apply to.
Part of your problem is that you don't give yourself credit for what you
are capable of, so you assume you aren't qualified and you don't even try.
How do you know what you're capable of if you don't try to stretch a
little bit? I'm not talking about jobs where they're looking for someone
with a PhD. in nuclear physics as a minimum requirement - that's one that
unless you have the degree, you don't meet the requirements for. But
systems admin jobs, research jobs at uni - those are jobs you could do.
But you give up before you even apply, and you need to STOP doing that.
> I can
> apply to three or four of them. And then I can sit there and wait until
> I'm fairly sure a reply isn't coming.
Or you could be persistent and call them. Express extreme interest.
Your current job sucks rocks, right? Then do everything you can to GET
OUT.
> Or I can sit and do nothing for 3
> hours. Both have the same result. Nobody except me will ever know the
> difference. Motivation, much?
How badly do you want to get out of your current job and situation? How
truly intolerable is it?
>> In spite of the continual failure to find something (and I looked for
>> months before quitting the current job at the time in disgust with
>> management), I kept looking. I networked with people, and eventually
>> found something. But it didn't happen overnight, and it didn't happen
>> with me sitting on my hands and going "oh poor me, my life sucks". I
>> was absolutely scared shitless that I was going to lose my home (and I
>> nearly did at that).
>
> What's your point? That you're a better human being than me? I think we
> already know that.
<sigh> Are you intentionally missing my point? It's called a parable -
using an example to explain something.
My point is that I didn't give up and I found something good - and that's
what you need to do. Opportunities don't drop out of the sky, you've got
to put some effort into it. And sometimes it takes more time than you
like, but if where you are is as awful as you describe, that alone should
be enough motivation to keep up the search.
Jim
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> (Perhaps excessively so.) It's just that for the most part, my life is a
> failure, so usually I'm pessimistic.
FAIL
What is it to live a successful life? Certainly not like Hollywood
pictures it -- money, cars and beautiful women all over -- because by
those standards everyone's life is pretty miserable by contrast...
living a successful life should be about having a good time while you're
here at Earth. One day you'll simply vanish and all your concerns about
social inadequacies will turn moot anyway. :)
BTW, if you're really desperate for a job change, how about actually
*showing* it? You send your curriculum every time and never receives a
positive answer, so why not act _truly desperate_ with your possible
employer? Intimidate him with your despair and see how it goes. :D
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> As I say, most other people have folks around them to turn to for
> support and encouragement. I don't really have that.
Well, then you can go frak yourself!
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sat, 02 May 2009 09:56:37 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> In spite of the continual failure to find something (and I looked for
>>> months before quitting the current job at the time in disgust with
>>> management), I kept looking. I networked with people, and eventually
>>> found something. But it didn't happen overnight, and it didn't happen
>>> with me sitting on my hands and going "oh poor me, my life sucks". I
>>> was absolutely scared shitless that I was going to lose my home (and I
>>> nearly did at that).
>> What's your point? That you're a better human being than me? I think we
>> already know that.
>
> <sigh> Are you intentionally missing my point? It's called a parable -
> using an example to explain something.
Forget it. He enjoys feeling miserable. Could start enjoying vodka as
well, nice complement. ;)
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>>>> As I say, most other people have folks around them to turn to for
>>>> support and encouragement. I don't really have that.
>>> You have that here. Sure, it's not the same as having it in meatspace,
>>> but we actually do exist.
>> I sometimes start to wonder....
>
> Because of course all the hours we spend writing to you don't mean
> anything? I've said it before, I don't talk to people I don't like.
> From what I've read of yours, I like you. Why do you find that so
> difficult to believe?
I meant, sometimes when all you're doing is looking at text on a screen,
it's difficult to believe that there's really a human being at the other
end.
>>> Like I said, you're not constantly failing, you're taking small steps.
>> If I was taking small steps, I'd slowly be getting somewhere.
>
> And you are. That is something that is difficult to see from inside your
> own head. Trust me, from out here, what I've seen, you've made
> significant progress in the last year.
You're right. From where I'm sitting, I can't see any progress of any kind.
I spent months learning Widor's Toccata. But every time I put some
effort in, I could *see* some progress - and that was really motivating.
But in almost every other sphere of my life, expending unbounded amounts
of effort produces no discernable progress at all - and that is
*extremely* demotivating. Why keep working your arse off if it's not
doing any good?
>>> You go out and dance, don't you? That's a social activity, and you
>>> sure don't sound like you're failing there.
>> As far as learning to actually dance... sure, I fail big-style. In terms
>> of getting along with people... that's a little more successful. But it
>> doesn't help that I don't really have anything remotely in common with
>> the people there to start with.
>
> That's not really the point. You get a chance to learn about
> interactions with people in meatspace, and you enjoy it. That's hardly a
> failure.
I'd enjoy it a lot more if I could learn to actually dance... But hey,
it's probably good exercise anyway. And sometimes I do enjoy it.
>>> You seem to enjoy your music immensely. That sure doesn't sound like a
>>> failure to me.
>> Unfortunately that generally doesn't impress people very much.
>
> Who cares? You enjoy it, you're impressed by it, that's the important
> thing. It's something that brings you happiness, so keep doing it.
It's something I keep doing because I keep hoping that one day it'll
actually impress somebody. Unfortunately, I keep being disappointed.
>> Mmm... for whatever reason, they seem to be disinclined to speak to me
>> at the minute.
>
> Have you contacted them, or have you been waiting for them to contact
> you?
I've contacted them several times. Each time they have oh-so-politely
turned me down. Maybe I'm paranoid, but there isn't a very positive vibe
happening when I talk to them.
>> Just recently I haven't really done anything, due to an extreme lack of
>> motivation.
>
> Then one could arguably make the point that your current job doesn't
> really suck that much. Having a job that sucks is one of the biggest
> motivating factors for people.
I would have thought having no job at all would be a far bigger
motivating factor, but anyway... My current job does suck, but it just
seems so hopeless trying to find anything better. It's as if this is all
I'm worth. That I'm just *doomed* to rot here for the rest of my life,
and there's nothing I can do about it.
If you think that sounds paranoid, consider this: Of all the job
interviews I've ever been to in my entire life, only one has ever got me
a job. And that's only because daddy put in a good word with the bosses.
And they were absolutely desperate. (I don't know that they even
interviewed anybody else.)
>> It's almost impossible to motivate yourself to do something
>> when failure is 100% guaranteed.
>
> It is if you don't get off your ass and do something about it, that's for
> sure.
I spent months (and a lot of money, BTW) having my CV professionally
reviewed, updating it, tweaking it, retouching it, and so forth. I
wasted hours searching Monster and sending out applications. Heck, I
even got my dad to drive me round the city center to find every
employment agency in the place and give out copies of my CV.
You know where it got me? Nowhere. Hell, the last place I applied to, I
spent hours carefully filling out their online application form, and
they rejected me in less than 120 seconds. No *way* did a human being
look at my application. Either there was never a vacancy in the first
place, or it was rejected by a machine because some vital keyword was
missing.
>> Nobody wants the skills I have.
>
> Bullshit. Just because you haven't found a company that's looking for
> your skillset doesn't mean nobody is looking for your skills.
Sure. So somewhere on the face of God's Earth there might be a company
that wants my skills. That doesn't help me unless I can find them, does
it? (And they also need to be in the UK for that matter.)
> Everyone has a chance, but you have to TAKE IT and actually look, not
> just give up.
I can't just keep working my butt off forever for no reward. It's so
soul-destroying.
>> Seriously. I can spent 3 hours looking through thousands of unsuitable
>> job vacancies hoping to find one that I can actually apply to.
>
> Part of your problem is that you don't give yourself credit for what you
> are capable of, so you assume you aren't qualified and you don't even try.
I don't think that's the main problem.
Problem number one is that most of the programming jobs I see have
titles like "lead software architect" and "senior C++ developer" and
"development team leader" and so forth. Obviously these are unsuitable.
Problem number two is that when you do finally find a possible Java job,
the description says something like "you will drive half way across the
country to the customer's site. The customer will demand that you
produce an application that does X, Y and Z. The customer will then
imprison you in a darkened room and you will not be allowed to leave
until the application is finished and working to the customer's
satisfaction." Obviously, I have *no intention* of ever doing this.
And of the remainder, almost unanimously they *demand* 3 years of
commercial programming experience in C / C++ / Java / whatever. Many of
them want details of what you've built, and include coding tests as part
of the assessment. Now I could probably *learn* C++ well enough to be
useful to somebody, but I'm not there yet. But hey, why hire somebody
who *thinks* he could learn C++ when you can hire somebody who *can* do
C++ right now?
I don't know where the hell all the graduate jobs are, but *I* can't
find them...
It's as if the job I want doesn't actually exist or something.
> How do you know what you're capable of if you don't try to stretch a
> little bit? I'm not talking about jobs where they're looking for someone
> with a PhD. in nuclear physics as a minimum requirement - that's one that
> unless you have the degree, you don't meet the requirements for. But
> systems admin jobs, research jobs at uni - those are jobs you could do.
> But you give up before you even apply, and you need to STOP doing that.
I want to get out of system administration. It's basically a job title
that says "everybody hates you and thinks you're incompetant". Second
only to "tax man".
The Haskell mailing list has had several offers of various work related
to Haskell. Heck, just recently the University of Strathclyde wanted a
Haskell bod. In each case, the message says "for more information, email
XYZ". And each time I do that. And I never, ever receive a reply. Either
I'm just that infamous or there's that many other people fighting for
the spot.
Hell, I've even had a look at places like MSRC and the OU to see if it's
feasible to do a PhD or something, but that turns out not to be possible
either.
It's not like I haven't tried. It's not like I've just sat here and
thought "ah well, there might be work involved, I can't be bothered". I
just can't get traction!
>> I can
>> apply to three or four of them. And then I can sit there and wait until
>> I'm fairly sure a reply isn't coming.
>
> Or you could be persistent and call them. Express extreme interest.
> Your current job sucks rocks, right? Then do everything you can to GET
> OUT.
And how many job adverts give you a phone number?
They say "to apply to this job, click here". You click it. "Thank you
for your application. We will get back to you shortly." Long silence ensues.
>> Or I can sit and do nothing for 3
>> hours. Both have the same result. Nobody except me will ever know the
>> difference. Motivation, much?
>
> How badly do you want to get out of your current job and situation? How
> truly intolerable is it?
> Opportunities don't drop out of the sky, you've got
> to put some effort into it. And sometimes it takes more time than you
> like, but if where you are is as awful as you describe, that alone should
> be enough motivation to keep up the search.
I've put effort in. It didn't work. So then I put some more effort in.
It *still* didn't work. And after that, I put even more effort in. Still
didn't work.
I don't have boundless amounts of energy, drive, enthusiasm and
motivation. I'm doing this all alone, all by myself, with absolutely
nobody helping me. It's exhausting. It's demoralising. And behind it all
is the knowledge that I'm probably not getting anywhere because,
fundamentally, I'm just not good enough to cut it.
Sure, at some point I'll hopefully work up enough energy to give it
another shot. But unless something radically changes, I don't imagine
I'll have much success...
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On Sun, 03 May 2009 11:49:12 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> I meant, sometimes when all you're doing is looking at text on a screen,
> it's difficult to believe that there's really a human being at the other
> end.
Well, believe it. :-)
>> And you are. That is something that is difficult to see from inside
>> your own head. Trust me, from out here, what I've seen, you've made
>> significant progress in the last year.
>
> You're right. From where I'm sitting, I can't see any progress of any
> kind.
That's because you're looking at it from your own personal frame of
reference. Other people experience this as well.
> of effort produces no discernable progress at all - and that is
> *extremely* demotivating. Why keep working your arse off if it's not
> doing any good?
Because it is doing good - just because you can't see it doesn't mean it
isn't happening.
Sometimes an objective third party point of view is the only way to know
that progress is being made.
>> That's not really the point. You get a chance to learn about
>> interactions with people in meatspace, and you enjoy it. That's hardly
>> a failure.
>
> I'd enjoy it a lot more if I could learn to actually dance... But hey,
> it's probably good exercise anyway. And sometimes I do enjoy it.
See? That's what I'm talking about.
>>>> You seem to enjoy your music immensely. That sure doesn't sound like
>>>> a failure to me.
>>> Unfortunately that generally doesn't impress people very much.
>>
>> Who cares? You enjoy it, you're impressed by it, that's the important
>> thing. It's something that brings you happiness, so keep doing it.
>
> It's something I keep doing because I keep hoping that one day it'll
> actually impress somebody. Unfortunately, I keep being disappointed.
And you've been at it how long? Learning to play music takes years of
practice. You are doing the same thing my stepson did when he started
learning the flute - wanting to become an instant virtuoso in the
field. It takes a lot of work to get to that point - one of the reasons
that after 15 years I more or less stopped playing the violin.
I'm not saying that to demotivate you, though I recognise that might be
one effect of what I'm saying. Things like dancing and playing a musical
instrument take years and years of dedicated study to do extremely well.
That doesn't mean you can't have fun with it, though, or that people
won't be impressed by what you've accomplished. And for what it's worth,
I'm impressed with both - I can't play the piano (I have a dumb left hand
when it comes to keyboard instruments) and I can't dance (owing to two
left feet). So that you've got the coordination skills to do both of
those things is something that I find impressive.
>>> Mmm... for whatever reason, they seem to be disinclined to speak to me
>>> at the minute.
>>
>> Have you contacted them, or have you been waiting for them to contact
>> you?
>
> I've contacted them several times. Each time they have oh-so-politely
> turned me down. Maybe I'm paranoid, but there isn't a very positive vibe
> happening when I talk to them.
Well, if that's the case, then move on, it's not possible to be liked by
everyone. I know I'm positively hated by some people, and others find me
awkward to be around. It took years of looking to find a team to work
with where I get along with nearly everyone. And I just found out that
one of my favourite people on the team was let go last week. :-(
>>> Just recently I haven't really done anything, due to an extreme lack
>>> of motivation.
>>
>> Then one could arguably make the point that your current job doesn't
>> really suck that much. Having a job that sucks is one of the biggest
>> motivating factors for people.
>
> I would have thought having no job at all would be a far bigger
> motivating factor, but anyway... My current job does suck, but it just
> seems so hopeless trying to find anything better. It's as if this is all
> I'm worth. That I'm just *doomed* to rot here for the rest of my life,
> and there's nothing I can do about it.
Just keep trying. Like I said before, if you don't try to find something
else, then you're absolutely right, you are doomed to be stuck there the
rest of your life. That doesn't mean that there is nothing better out
there.
But it may mean you need to adjust your parameters a little bit, too -
including looking in other parts of the country. You drive almost 2.5
hours a day to and from your current job, but when we last spoke about
the job hunt, it sounded like you were restricting your search to Milton
Keynes, and partly that was because you don't feel you can currently
afford a flat of your own (or finding one with a roommate at least to get
started). But if you find a job that's 100 miles away from where you
are, make sure they know that you'll need relocation and a salary that
affords you the ability to actually move in somewhere.
People all over the world get jobs that afford housing, and you've got to
start somewhere. Using myself as an example again (because I know my own
story best), first job out of college I made about what you're making now
(and that included a fair bit of overtime pay), and I lived in my
parent's basement. 15 years ago, I attended a conference here in Utah
(which is about 1500 miles away from where I grew up, and I knew only one
person who actually lived here - and had only met him online). He
arranged an interview for me with a company he knew was looking for
someone with my skills. I went on the interview while here at the
conference, and I got lucky enough to get what turned out to be the worst
job in my life (this is the one I was forced to resign from, you know the
story). But it paid almost double what I was making back in Minneapolis,
and made it possible for me to afford a place to live.
> If you think that sounds paranoid, consider this: Of all the job
> interviews I've ever been to in my entire life, only one has ever got me
> a job. And that's only because daddy put in a good word with the bosses.
> And they were absolutely desperate. (I don't know that they even
> interviewed anybody else.)
That's the past. Stop looking back at this and start looking forward.
>>> It's almost impossible to motivate yourself to do something when
>>> failure is 100% guaranteed.
>>
>> It is if you don't get off your ass and do something about it, that's
>> for sure.
>
> I spent months (and a lot of money, BTW) having my CV professionally
> reviewed, updating it, tweaking it, retouching it, and so forth. I [...]
And what does it look like now? I don't know if you posted a current
version.
Have you looked at online business networking sites like LinkedIn?
Seriously, sending out CVs is a very old-fashioned way of doing this sort
of thing, and the newer way seems to be to build a network of
professional colleagues and to leverage those connections.
I've been quite amazed at how many people I know are there and the
possibilities are pretty interesting. I didn't know, for example, that I
know people who know people in the film industry. If I were looking for
a job today, I'd definitely start tehre.
>>> Nobody wants the skills I have.
>>
>> Bullshit. Just because you haven't found a company that's looking for
>> your skillset doesn't mean nobody is looking for your skills.
>
> Sure. So somewhere on the face of God's Earth there might be a company
> that wants my skills. That doesn't help me unless I can find them, does
> it? (And they also need to be in the UK for that matter.)
And if conventional methods of finding those companies don't work, then
you need to look for unconventional methods of finding those companies.
Actually, your experience in using your dad's connection to the place you
work now is one of the more common ways of finding a job - not
necessarily your parents' connections (though that does work - my own dad
got his job because of his dad's work with the company, and he spent 30+
years working there. He got the job back just after World War II and
retired in 1981).
There are people here who would no doubt add you to their professional
networks. While the link from you to me (for example) may not in and of
itself yield a job, my connections to others may well do that.
>> Everyone has a chance, but you have to TAKE IT and actually look, not
>> just give up.
>
> I can't just keep working my butt off forever for no reward. It's so
> soul-destroying.
And yet at your job aren't you doing exactly that? Like I said, you've
got to keep trying. Yes it can be disheartening. The 3 months I spent
unemployed, I ended up sleeping most of the time. Trust me, I know what
the experience is like. I was depressed for most of that 3 months, and
there's nothing that can make you feel more helpless than the prospect of
losing your home and being unemployed. You don't have a corner on that
market.
>>> Seriously. I can spent 3 hours looking through thousands of unsuitable
>>> job vacancies hoping to find one that I can actually apply to.
>>
>> Part of your problem is that you don't give yourself credit for what
>> you are capable of, so you assume you aren't qualified and you don't
>> even try.
>
> I don't think that's the main problem.
That's a big part of the problem, to be quite frank.
> Problem number one is that most of the programming jobs I see have
> titles like "lead software architect" and "senior C++ developer" and
> "development team leader" and so forth. Obviously these are unsuitable.
Well, I know you don't do C++ programming, but I don't see why those
other jobs wouldn't be suitable for you.
> Problem number two is that when you do finally find a possible Java job,
> the description says something like "you will drive half way across the
> country to the customer's site. The customer will demand that you
> produce an application that does X, Y and Z. The customer will then
> imprison you in a darkened room and you will not be allowed to leave
> until the application is finished and working to the customer's
> satisfaction." Obviously, I have *no intention* of ever doing this.
You have no intention of ever doing this because your perception is that
customers never take "no" for an answer. That's not the case. You just
think it is because that's your only experience, and like in so many
different parts of your life, you make the leap that your experience is
the only possible experience and that that's just the way the world works.
It's not, and you need to recognise that.
> And of the remainder, almost unanimously they *demand* 3 years of
> commercial programming experience in C / C++ / Java / whatever. Many of
> them want details of what you've built, and include coding tests as part
> of the assessment. Now I could probably *learn* C++ well enough to be
> useful to somebody, but I'm not there yet. But hey, why hire somebody
> who *thinks* he could learn C++ when you can hire somebody who *can* do
> C++ right now?
Many reasons. The only qualified C++ programmers may ask for more money
than the company can afford. Posted job requirements (like the "demand"
for 3 years experience) are flexible. Part of what they count on is
people who don't meet the "real" requirements not applying and taking
exactly the attitude you are taking. Sometimes they mean it, but
sometimes they don't. The only way to find out is to ask. If you have
something to offer, often times they'll look past that requirement.
A lot of jobs I've had "required" a degree, which I don't have. But I
got the job - because I had what they needed.
> I don't know where the hell all the graduate jobs are, but *I* can't
> find them...
>
> It's as if the job I want doesn't actually exist or something.
Well, there again, if you stop looking, you'll never find it, and this
becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it? I suppose at least then
you can say "hey, I was right, it doesn't exist".
>> How do you know what you're capable of if you don't try to stretch a
>> little bit? I'm not talking about jobs where they're looking for
>> someone with a PhD. in nuclear physics as a minimum requirement -
>> that's one that unless you have the degree, you don't meet the
>> requirements for. But systems admin jobs, research jobs at uni - those
>> are jobs you could do. But you give up before you even apply, and you
>> need to STOP doing that.
>
> I want to get out of system administration. It's basically a job title
> that says "everybody hates you and thinks you're incompetant". Second
> only to "tax man".
There again, you have limited experience in the field - and not every
systems admin job is like that. I worked at a place where that was the
belief, and I worked in other places where it was a job title that said
"you are a god amongst men and are able to solve any problem with
relative ease, using obscure incantations that no mortal person can
understand."
> The Haskell mailing list has had several offers of various work related
> to Haskell. Heck, just recently the University of Strathclyde wanted a
> Haskell bod. In each case, the message says "for more information, email
> XYZ". And each time I do that. And I never, ever receive a reply. Either
> I'm just that infamous or there's that many other people fighting for
> the spot.
You ever send more than one request? Maybe a follow-up saying "hey, I'm
really interested in this, and I haven't heard back - is the position
still available?"
Prospective employers like that kind of initiative. They tend to not go
for people who ask once and then give up.
> Hell, I've even had a look at places like MSRC and the OU to see if it's
> feasible to do a PhD or something, but that turns out not to be possible
> either.
Now I know you've discussed PhD possibilities with some people up here -
people who have a lot more experience in getting into that than I (as I
have basically none), so I'll let them comment on this if they like.
> It's not like I haven't tried. It's not like I've just sat here and
> thought "ah well, there might be work involved, I can't be bothered". I
> just can't get traction!
Don't give up. Yes it's disheartening, yes at times it can feel "soul-
crushing", remember, I've BTDT. Eventually the hard work pays off.
>>> I can
>>> apply to three or four of them. And then I can sit there and wait
>>> until I'm fairly sure a reply isn't coming.
>>
>> Or you could be persistent and call them. Express extreme interest.
>> Your current job sucks rocks, right? Then do everything you can to GET
>> OUT.
>
> And how many job adverts give you a phone number?
>
> They say "to apply to this job, click here". You click it. "Thank you
> for your application. We will get back to you shortly." Long silence
> ensues.
The Internet is a wonderful thing. Employers love people who can do some
research. You ever use the phone book to look up a phone number? Find
one of these companies and call them, ask to speak to the HR department.
Some will say "sorry, you have to go through the formal process", but
some will like the initiative shown and some enthusiasm about taking the
position.
Most of the jobs I've had I didn't get because I went through the front
door, I went through the side entrance instead, using contacts I had who
knew the company or by talking to people inside the company.
>>> Or I can sit and do nothing for 3
>>> hours. Both have the same result. Nobody except me will ever know the
>>> difference. Motivation, much?
>>
>> How badly do you want to get out of your current job and situation?
>> How truly intolerable is it?
>
>> Opportunities don't drop out of the sky, you've got to put some effort
>> into it. And sometimes it takes more time than you like, but if where
>> you are is as awful as you describe, that alone should be enough
>> motivation to keep up the search.
>
> I've put effort in. It didn't work. So then I put some more effort in.
> It *still* didn't work. And after that, I put even more effort in. Still
> didn't work.
>
> I don't have boundless amounts of energy, drive, enthusiasm and
> motivation. I'm doing this all alone, all by myself, with absolutely
> nobody helping me. It's exhausting. It's demoralising. And behind it all
> is the knowledge that I'm probably not getting anywhere because,
> fundamentally, I'm just not good enough to cut it.
There you go again, discounting the people you write to up here. You're
not alone, you have the support of several people here.
And you are good enough. To those companies who turned you down, they
weren't good enough for you. They didn't see your potential, and it's
their loss.
> Sure, at some point I'll hopefully work up enough energy to give it
> another shot. But unless something radically changes, I don't imagine
> I'll have much success...
Well, like I said before, the pessimist can be pleasantly surprised, the
optimist will be disappointed.
Try approaching it with the attitude that you will succeed. Even if you
don't, you gave it your all.
Jim
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>> You're right. From where I'm sitting, I can't see any progress of any
>> kind.
>
> That's because you're looking at it from your own personal frame of
> reference. Other people experience this as well.
OK, so let's do something positive. What do *you* think has improved in
the last year then?
> Sometimes an objective third party point of view is the only way to know
> that progress is being made.
See above.
>> It's something I keep doing because I keep hoping that one day it'll
>> actually impress somebody. Unfortunately, I keep being disappointed.
>
> And you've been at it how long?
Hmm, let me see... Yeah, I guess I have only been doing this for 20
years now.
> Learning to play music takes years of
> practice. You are doing the same thing my stepson did when he started
> learning the flute - wanting to become an instant virtuoso in the
> field. It takes a lot of work to get to that point - one of the reasons
> that after 15 years I more or less stopped playing the violin.
Like I said, I've been playing various musical instruments for about 75%
of my entire life so far. It seems unlikely I'm ever going to get
significantly better now.
> And for what it's worth,
> I'm impressed with both - I can't play the piano (I have a dumb left hand
> when it comes to keyboard instruments) and I can't dance (owing to two
> left feet). So that you've got the coordination skills to do both of
> those things is something that I find impressive.
Heh, well... at least somebody liked it.
>> I would have thought having no job at all would be a far bigger
>> motivating factor, but anyway... My current job does suck, but it just
>> seems so hopeless trying to find anything better. It's as if this is all
>> I'm worth. That I'm just *doomed* to rot here for the rest of my life,
>> and there's nothing I can do about it.
>
> Just keep trying. Like I said before, if you don't try to find something
> else, then you're absolutely right, you are doomed to be stuck there the
> rest of your life. That doesn't mean that there is nothing better out
> there.
Well, it's like looking for a white elephant. You spent years trying to
find one, and ever see any evidence that it exists. At what point do you
accept that it really doesn't exist? (I mean, if you're a rational person.)
> But it may mean you need to adjust your parameters a little bit, too -
> including looking in other parts of the country.
Like I said, I asked about a position in *Strathclyde*. (I don't even
know where that is.) I was fully prepaired to head over there if they'd
actually be interested. But no... nothing ever came of it.
> You drive almost 2.5
> hours a day to and from your current job, but when we last spoke about
> the job hunt, it sounded like you were restricting your search to Milton
> Keynes
Yes. Because I don't *like* driving. This is something I want to *stop*
doing.
> and partly that was because you don't feel you can currently
> afford a flat of your own.
Pretty much, yeah. Besides, I have even less idea how to find a flat
than I have finding a job. (I did look into this once... Clearly cheap
flats exist somewhere, but not where I looked.)
>> If you think that sounds paranoid, consider this: Of all the job
>> interviews I've ever been to in my entire life, only one has ever got me
>> a job. And that's only because daddy put in a good word with the bosses.
>> And they were absolutely desperate. (I don't know that they even
>> interviewed anybody else.)
>
> That's the past. Stop looking back at this and start looking forward.
It's the only performance measurement I have.
>> I spent months (and a lot of money, BTW) having my CV professionally
>> reviewed, updating it, tweaking it, retouching it, and so forth. I [...]
>
> And what does it look like now? I don't know if you posted a current
> version.
Yeah, I did a while back. Some people gave me a few small hints - which
I have now implemented. It looks pretty sharp to me. (But that's the
amazing thing. Every single person you show a CV to will always come up
with *something* that makes you go "gee, actually you're right, I should
do that..." No matter how great you think it already is...!)
> Have you looked at online business networking sites like LinkedIn?
> Seriously, sending out CVs is a very old-fashioned way of doing this sort
> of thing, and the newer way seems to be to build a network of
> professional colleagues and to leverage those connections.
Um... I don't know anybody?
>> Sure. So somewhere on the face of God's Earth there might be a company
>> that wants my skills. That doesn't help me unless I can find them, does
>> it? (And they also need to be in the UK for that matter.)
>
> And if conventional methods of finding those companies don't work, then
> you need to look for unconventional methods of finding those companies.
Well, that's what I'm thinking. What I've been doing clearly and
demonstratably doesn't work in any way, shape or form. So I should do
something different. But I can't figure out what. So I end up doing
nothing, because I don't know what to do. (Same as almost every other
area of my life, BTW.)
>> I can't just keep working my butt off forever for no reward. It's so
>> soul-destroying.
>
> And yet at your job aren't you doing exactly that?
Well, it beats being employed. (Just about.) I don't seem to have a lot
of choice here. At least I get *something* for this work - namely, a
cheque. Searching for jobs gives me *nothing* at all. (Except a case of
depression.)
>>> Part of your problem is that you don't give yourself credit for what
>>> you are capable of, so you assume you aren't qualified and you don't
>>> even try.
>> I don't think that's the main problem.
>
> That's a big part of the problem, to be quite frank.
>
>> Problem number one is that most of the programming jobs I see have
>> titles like "lead software architect" and "senior C++ developer" and
>> "development team leader" and so forth. Obviously these are unsuitable.
>
> Well, I know you don't do C++ programming, but I don't see why those
> other jobs wouldn't be suitable for you.
Um... because I've never worked in a professional capacity at
programming in my entire life?
It's like saying "hey, I've never built a bridge in my life, but sure,
I'll have a go at drawing up some blueprints for your builders to
follow". Um, WTF? No, I don't think so.
What I'm looking for is "trainee Java programmer" or similar - but those
jobs don't seem to be advertised anywhere.
>> Problem number two is that when you do finally find a possible Java job,
>> the description says something like "you will drive half way across the
>> country to the customer's site. The customer will demand that you
>> produce an application that does X, Y and Z. The customer will then
>> imprison you in a darkened room and you will not be allowed to leave
>> until the application is finished and working to the customer's
>> satisfaction." Obviously, I have *no intention* of ever doing this.
>
> You have no intention of ever doing this because your perception is that
> customers never take "no" for an answer. That's not the case. You just
> think it is because that's your only experience, and like in so many
> different parts of your life, you make the leap that your experience is
> the only possible experience and that that's just the way the world works.
>
> It's not, and you need to recognise that.
Sure. I bet there are customers who have *reasonable expectations*.
In some parallel dimension somewhere. Right next to the screwdriver
tree. :-P
Besides, even if it were possible for a customer to not be horrifyingly
abusive and unreasonable... I'm a computer programmer. I'm not a
salesman. I'm not customer relations officer. I'm not a management
consultant. AND I DON'T WANT TO BE. I just want to be left alone to
write computer programs. Is that so hard? You know, having a job that
utilises my actual skills rather than requiring a whole bunch of skills
I don't have?
>> Now I could probably *learn* C++ well enough to be
>> useful to somebody, but I'm not there yet. But hey, why hire somebody
>> who *thinks* he could learn C++ when you can hire somebody who *can* do
>> C++ right now?
>
> Many reasons. The only qualified C++ programmers may ask for more money
> than the company can afford. Posted job requirements (like the "demand"
> for 3 years experience) are flexible. Sometimes they mean it, but
> sometimes they don't. The only way to find out is to ask. If you have
> something to offer, often times they'll look past that requirement.
Well, maybe... Given that the market must surely be utterly flooded with
programmers right now, I presume the employer can dictate whatever terms
they want.
>> I don't know where the hell all the graduate jobs are, but *I* can't
>> find them...
>>
>> It's as if the job I want doesn't actually exist or something.
>
> Well, there again, if you stop looking, you'll never find it, and this
> becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it? I suppose at least then
> you can say "hey, I was right, it doesn't exist".
I have been looking for quite some time though.
>> I want to get out of system administration. It's basically a job title
>> that says "everybody hates you and thinks you're incompetant". Second
>> only to "tax man".
>
> There again, you have limited experience in the field - and not every
> systems admin job is like that. I worked at a place where that was the
> belief, and I worked in other places where it was a job title that said
> "you are a god amongst men and are able to solve any problem with
> relative ease, using obscure incantations that no mortal person can
> understand."
No, it generally means "we have no concept of what your job actually
involves. We therefore expect you to be able to perform miracles with no
support or resources, and we get cranky when you tell us that some vital
item *won't* be a 20-second job. And we won't even bother to thank you
when you do get something right." No thanks...
>> The Haskell mailing list has had several offers of various work related
>> to Haskell. Heck, just recently the University of Strathclyde wanted a
>> Haskell bod. In each case, the message says "for more information, email
>> XYZ". And each time I do that. And I never, ever receive a reply. Either
>> I'm just that infamous or there's that many other people fighting for
>> the spot.
>
> You ever send more than one request? Maybe a follow-up saying "hey, I'm
> really interested in this, and I haven't heard back - is the position
> still available?"
>
> Prospective employers like that kind of initiative. They tend to not go
> for people who ask once and then give up.
I think it's more that the entire Haskell mailing list regards me as a
troll. Presumably my reputation preceeds me.
>> Hell, I've even had a look at places like MSRC and the OU to see if it's
>> feasible to do a PhD or something, but that turns out not to be possible
>> either.
>
> Now I know you've discussed PhD possibilities with some people up here -
Never reached much of a conclusion though.
> Don't give up. Yes it's disheartening, yes at times it can feel "soul-
> crushing", remember, I've BTDT. Eventually the hard work pays off.
When? After 20 years or something?
>> And how many job adverts give you a phone number?
>>
>
> The Internet is a wonderful thing. Employers love people who can do some
> research. You ever use the phone book to look up a phone number?
Usually adverts don't state who the real employer is. (Because then you
could just phone them and the agency wouldn't get their cut of the
money.) So if you're going with that approach, it's basically down to
selecting companies at random and trying to contact them. 100% stress.
> Find
> one of these companies and call them, ask to speak to the HR department.
> Some will say "sorry, you have to go through the formal process", but
> some will like the initiative shown and some enthusiasm about taking the
> position.
>
> Most of the jobs I've had I didn't get because I went through the front
> door, I went through the side entrance instead, using contacts I had who
> knew the company or by talking to people inside the company.
I'm extremely bad at this sort of thing. Typically takes me 4 to 7 days
to work up the nerve to make one single phone call. I doubt being a
nervous wreck is the way to impress employers.
> And you are good enough. To those companies who turned you down, they
> weren't good enough for you. They didn't see your potential, and it's
> their loss.
See, now, much as I'd *like* to believe that I'm right and the entire
world is in fact wrong... seems a little delusional, doesn't it?
> Try approaching it with the attitude that you will succeed. Even if you
> don't, you gave it your all.
Cool. "I gave it my all, and it wasn't good enough." That's so
uplifting. :-/
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On Sun, 03 May 2009 19:34:43 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> You're right. From where I'm sitting, I can't see any progress of any
>>> kind.
>>
>> That's because you're looking at it from your own personal frame of
>> reference. Other people experience this as well.
>
> OK, so let's do something positive. What do *you* think has improved in
> the last year then?
You are getting out more, spending time around people. You've taken up
dancing classes. You've started talking to people that are total
strangers.
This is not an exhaustive list, just the first few things that popped
into my head.
> Hmm, let me see... Yeah, I guess I have only been doing this for 20
> years now.
You've been playing and seriously studying music for 20 years?
> Like I said, I've been playing various musical instruments for about 75%
> of my entire life so far. It seems unlikely I'm ever going to get
> significantly better now.
Nonsense. World class musicians improve their technique every day.
>> And for what it's worth,
>> I'm impressed with both - I can't play the piano (I have a dumb left
>> hand when it comes to keyboard instruments) and I can't dance (owing to
>> two left feet). So that you've got the coordination skills to do both
>> of those things is something that I find impressive.
>
> Heh, well... at least somebody liked it.
Just because you don't get thousands of people saying "hey that's cool"
doesn't mean only one person liked it or nobody liked it. I personally
don't do a good job of telling people they've done a good job at
something because it always sounds fake to me, even though I mean it
sincerely.
> Well, it's like looking for a white elephant. You spent years trying to
> find one, and ever see any evidence that it exists. At what point do you
> accept that it really doesn't exist? (I mean, if you're a rational
> person.)
If something makes me unhappy, I never stop trying to change my
circumstances. If it takes me the rest of my life, I'll keep trying.
When it comes to looking for the perfect job, you should never stop
looking. The world's a big place, and until you've exhausted all the
possibilities (and I mean *all* of them), don't assume it doesn't exist.
Your problem is in your assumptions.
>> But it may mean you need to adjust your parameters a little bit, too -
>> including looking in other parts of the country.
>
> Like I said, I asked about a position in *Strathclyde*. (I don't even
> know where that is.) I was fully prepaired to head over there if they'd
> actually be interested. But no... nothing ever came of it.
How many times did you contact them?
>> You drive almost 2.5
>> hours a day to and from your current job, but when we last spoke about
>> the job hunt, it sounded like you were restricting your search to
>> Milton Keynes
>
> Yes. Because I don't *like* driving. This is something I want to *stop*
> doing.
There are really two options: Find something closer to home, or move
your home. Don't limit yourself to the option of just finding work
nearer to home. If there aren't jobs where you're looking, then option 2
has to be a consideration.
>> and partly that was because you don't feel you can currently afford a
>> flat of your own.
>
> Pretty much, yeah. Besides, I have even less idea how to find a flat
> than I have finding a job. (I did look into this once... Clearly cheap
> flats exist somewhere, but not where I looked.)
Well, not being an expert in how this is done in the UK, I'm probably not
the best person to advise. However the words "To Let" seem to be very
popular on signs in some parts of your country that I've been in. You
might try those or try a real estate agent - while they look to sell
properties, I imagine some know a few things about rental properties as
well.
>>> If you think that sounds paranoid, consider this: Of all the job
>>> interviews I've ever been to in my entire life, only one has ever got
>>> me a job. And that's only because daddy put in a good word with the
>>> bosses. And they were absolutely desperate. (I don't know that they
>>> even interviewed anybody else.)
>>
>> That's the past. Stop looking back at this and start looking forward.
>
> It's the only performance measurement I have.
Mate, if I spent my entire life looking back at my failures (which are
many, let's start with not finishing school), I'd never have got
anywhere. Stop worrying about the "performance measurement" and work
towards making the change.
Do you want the change? If so, how badly do you want it?
>>> I spent months (and a lot of money, BTW) having my CV professionally
>>> reviewed, updating it, tweaking it, retouching it, and so forth. I
>>> [...]
>>
>> And what does it look like now? I don't know if you posted a current
>> version.
>
> Yeah, I did a while back. Some people gave me a few small hints - which
> I have now implemented. It looks pretty sharp to me. (But that's the
> amazing thing. Every single person you show a CV to will always come up
> with *something* that makes you go "gee, actually you're right, I should
> do that..." No matter how great you think it already is...!)
There's always room for improvement, yes. The last one I saw here looked
pretty good to me as well as I recall.
>> Have you looked at online business networking sites like LinkedIn?
>> Seriously, sending out CVs is a very old-fashioned way of doing this
>> sort of thing, and the newer way seems to be to build a network of
>> professional colleagues and to leverage those connections.
>
> Um... I don't know anybody?
You'd be surprised. Go on, join up, send me an invite to connect
(hendersj at gmail dot com). Instant network. It's not the connections
one point away, it's the ones two and three points away that are the most
interesting. You can get people to introduce you to those connections.
>>> Sure. So somewhere on the face of God's Earth there might be a company
>>> that wants my skills. That doesn't help me unless I can find them,
>>> does it? (And they also need to be in the UK for that matter.)
>>
>> And if conventional methods of finding those companies don't work, then
>> you need to look for unconventional methods of finding those companies.
>
> Well, that's what I'm thinking. What I've been doing clearly and
> demonstratably doesn't work in any way, shape or form. So I should do
> something different. But I can't figure out what. So I end up doing
> nothing, because I don't know what to do. (Same as almost every other
> area of my life, BTW.)
Have you tried asking others about nonconventional ways of meeting people
and networking for work? Don't say you don't know anybody - there's a
bunch of people here you "know" (in the online sense) and whom you've met
in real life a few times.
>>> I can't just keep working my butt off forever for no reward. It's so
>>> soul-destroying.
>>
>> And yet at your job aren't you doing exactly that?
>
> Well, it beats being employed. (Just about.) I don't seem to have a lot
> of choice here. At least I get *something* for this work - namely, a
> cheque. Searching for jobs gives me *nothing* at all. (Except a case of
> depression.)
Beats being employed? ;-) (Go ahead, laugh...it's funny). Searching for
a new job eventually will give you a new job. It takes time, sometimes a
lot of time.
>> Well, I know you don't do C++ programming, but I don't see why those
>> other jobs wouldn't be suitable for you.
>
> Um... because I've never worked in a professional capacity at
> programming in my entire life?
Here's a news flash: Everyone has been at this point in their
professional life. When I got my current job (as a testing program
manager), I had absolutely no experience at IT testing. That didn't
prohibit me from getting the job (in fairness, I didn't apply for it, it
was thrust upon me). When I took my first job running the computer
network at my uni, I had no experience with computer networking
whatsoever.
> It's like saying "hey, I've never built a bridge in my life, but sure,
> I'll have a go at drawing up some blueprints for your builders to
> follow". Um, WTF? No, I don't think so.
No, but at the same time, those architects didn't instantly obtain the
experience that put them in the job they're in. They started by first
learning about architecture and how physical structures are built. Then
they worked with other architects to build their first structures. And
today, guess what, they *still* work with a team and not on their own
when it comes to building major structures.
Why?
Because nobody on the team has enough experience and knowledge to account
for every piece of the structure.
That's what a team is and does.
Do you think the scientists you work with just woke up one morning with
the experience and knowledge that got them the jobs they work in?
> What I'm looking for is "trainee Java programmer" or similar - but those
> jobs don't seem to be advertised anywhere.
Perhaps it's in the word selection - "trainee" maybe isn't a commonly
used term. Permute the search terms.
>> You have no intention of ever doing this because your perception is
>> that customers never take "no" for an answer. That's not the case.
>> You just think it is because that's your only experience, and like in
>> so many different parts of your life, you make the leap that your
>> experience is the only possible experience and that that's just the way
>> the world works.
>>
>> It's not, and you need to recognise that.
>
> Sure. I bet there are customers who have *reasonable expectations*.
>
> In some parallel dimension somewhere. Right next to the screwdriver
> tree. :-P
I deal with customers every single day. There are ones with reasonable
expectations, and there are unreasonable ones.
And often times, I take the unreasonable ones and make them be reasonable.
A lot of times, customers start out at the "unreasonable" end of the
scale because they recognise that if they start at the "reasonable" end
of the scale, getting what they want is unlikely. So they start out
being unreasonable with the expectation that they will be negotiated to
"reasonable".
It's like buying a car here in the US. The dealer starts at a price that
gives him a very good commission and some customers are going to just
accept it and pay the price.
Some are going to negotiate that down.
Now if the dealer asks for the sticker price, he's not likely to get a
good commission, is he? Why? Because the sticker price doesn't include
a high commission.
It's called "negotiation". People often ask for far more than they
expect to get as a means of getting what they do expect to get. If you
start at what you expect to get, then often times you end up getting less.
> Besides, even if it were possible for a customer to not be horrifyingly
> abusive and unreasonable... I'm a computer programmer. I'm not a
> salesman. I'm not customer relations officer. I'm not a management
> consultant. AND I DON'T WANT TO BE. I just want to be left alone to
> write computer programs. Is that so hard? You know, having a job that
> utilises my actual skills rather than requiring a whole bunch of skills
> I don't have?
10 years ago, I wouldn't have thought I'd be in a customer facing
position. I got into technology because I hated dealing with people.
It took nearly 20 years for me to get to the point of dealing with people
effectively. And I've found that I'm actually pretty good at it - which
was a real shock and surprise.
Don't be afraid to try new things. You might just find that you're good
at it and that you like it. But you have to set aside your preconceived
notions.
> Well, maybe... Given that the market must surely be utterly flooded with
> programmers right now, I presume the employer can dictate whatever terms
> they want.
Or possibly that the market isn't flooded but with the economy being
down, they're using fewer people to do the same job. Eventually that
stops working and they will need to hire more programmers. You are
correct that it's not exactly an employee-friendly market at this point
(my company just did a layoff as the end of our second quarter, in
fact). But that doesn't mean you can't get what you want, you just need
to negotiate from a starting point that's farther out than you might
otherwise - but not too far out for them to consider your offer.
Of course one of the best rules I've heard of negotiation is to not be
the first to put a number on the table. When I came to my current
employer 6 years ago, I took a pay cut. I walked in knowing that I would
probably have to take one, and knowing what my bottom line was. I asked
about salary, the answer was "what are you making now?". I told my then
future boss, and he said "I can't do that". I told him to give me a
number and I'd tell him if it was good enough; he did, and it was within
the range I wanted.
The first year, they made the difference up.
Point is, I let them dictate the terms and while I took a pay cut, I (a)
got to work with technologies I wanted to work with, and (b) I ultimately
got what I wanted in terms of pay. I had to wait less than 12 months.
>> Well, there again, if you stop looking, you'll never find it, and this
>> becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it? I suppose at least
>> then you can say "hey, I was right, it doesn't exist".
>
> I have been looking for quite some time though.
When did you last actively look?
>>> I want to get out of system administration. It's basically a job title
>>> that says "everybody hates you and thinks you're incompetant". Second
>>> only to "tax man".
>>
>> There again, you have limited experience in the field - and not every
>> systems admin job is like that. I worked at a place where that was the
>> belief, and I worked in other places where it was a job title that said
>> "you are a god amongst men and are able to solve any problem with
>> relative ease, using obscure incantations that no mortal person can
>> understand."
>
> No, it generally means "we have no concept of what your job actually
> involves. We therefore expect you to be able to perform miracles with no
> support or resources, and we get cranky when you tell us that some vital
> item *won't* be a 20-second job. And we won't even bother to thank you
> when you do get something right." No thanks...
Again, your experience is based on one company. I am telling you that
while there are places like that, not all places are. That's not
hyperbole, that's based on my actual real-world experience. Just because
you haven't had the fortune to have that kind of experience doesn't mean
it doesn't happen.
>>> The Haskell mailing list has had several offers of various work
>>> related to Haskell. Heck, just recently the University of Strathclyde
>>> wanted a Haskell bod. In each case, the message says "for more
>>> information, email XYZ". And each time I do that. And I never, ever
>>> receive a reply. Either I'm just that infamous or there's that many
>>> other people fighting for the spot.
>>
>> You ever send more than one request? Maybe a follow-up saying "hey,
>> I'm really interested in this, and I haven't heard back - is the
>> position still available?"
>>
>> Prospective employers like that kind of initiative. They tend to not
>> go for people who ask once and then give up.
>
> I think it's more that the entire Haskell mailing list regards me as a
> troll. Presumably my reputation preceeds me.
Don't presume and don't assume. You didn't answer my question, though -
did you send just one request and give up when you didn't get a response,
or did you follow up?
>>> Hell, I've even had a look at places like MSRC and the OU to see if
>>> it's feasible to do a PhD or something, but that turns out not to be
>>> possible either.
>>
>> Now I know you've discussed PhD possibilities with some people up here
>> -
>
> Never reached much of a conclusion though.
>
>> Don't give up. Yes it's disheartening, yes at times it can feel "soul-
>> crushing", remember, I've BTDT. Eventually the hard work pays off.
>
> When? After 20 years or something?
It pays off when it pays off. And when it does, things will change.
Until then, don't give up - if you give up, then things are guaranteed to
not change. You want change for the better, right?
>>> And how many job adverts give you a phone number?
>>>
>>>
>> The Internet is a wonderful thing. Employers love people who can do
>> some research. You ever use the phone book to look up a phone number?
>
> Usually adverts don't state who the real employer is. (Because then you
> could just phone them and the agency wouldn't get their cut of the
> money.) So if you're going with that approach, it's basically down to
> selecting companies at random and trying to contact them. 100% stress.
Then don't go through the agency. Does your local paper carry classified
ads?
I mentioned LinkedIn before - job postings are made there fairly
regularly as well, and you know who the company is. Companies don't just
recruit through job agencies, they use multiple avenues.
>> Find
>> one of these companies and call them, ask to speak to the HR
>> department. Some will say "sorry, you have to go through the formal
>> process", but some will like the initiative shown and some enthusiasm
>> about taking the position.
>>
>> Most of the jobs I've had I didn't get because I went through the front
>> door, I went through the side entrance instead, using contacts I had
>> who knew the company or by talking to people inside the company.
>
> I'm extremely bad at this sort of thing. Typically takes me 4 to 7 days
> to work up the nerve to make one single phone call. I doubt being a
> nervous wreck is the way to impress employers.
The more you do it, the more confident you'll become. Hey, you gained
the confidence to contact a total stranger the other day, and like I said
earlier, that's progress. As you do more of it, you'll get more
confident at it. Yes, I know that's counterintuitive and your way of
thinking will lead you to "more failure will make me more confident?
WTF?" It's the practice in talking with people.
>> And you are good enough. To those companies who turned you down, they
>> weren't good enough for you. They didn't see your potential, and it's
>> their loss.
>
> See, now, much as I'd *like* to believe that I'm right and the entire
> world is in fact wrong... seems a little delusional, doesn't it?
Not at all. They don't know you as well as you know you. So if they
turn you down and they haven't take the time to get to know you better,
then they pretty much suck at knowing that you're the one they're really
looking for. You're honest, hard working, intelligent, and like to learn
things. Those are very important traits and if they can't see that, then
it's their loss.
>> Try approaching it with the attitude that you will succeed. Even if
>> you don't, you gave it your all.
>
> Cool. "I gave it my all, and it wasn't good enough." That's so
> uplifting. :-/
Harsh reality of the world: Sometimes it's not enough. But if you gave
it your all and they didn't see that you're the person they need, then
it's not your fault, it's theirs. You can't control what other people
do, and if they reject you when you are the right candidate for the job,
then it really is their problem. So you move on to the next opportunity,
and the next, and the next, until someone recognises your skills.
Jim
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>> OK, so let's do something positive. What do *you* think has improved in
>> the last year then?
>
> You are getting out more, spending time around people. You've taken up
> dancing classes. You've started talking to people that are total
> strangers.
>
> This is not an exhaustive list, just the first few things that popped
> into my head.
Well, at least the dance classes are going better than the drawing
classes I did last year...
I wish I _was_ getting out more. I keep trying to make this happen, but
it's nearly impossible to get it working. I mean, I can be "outside"
easily enough. But finding people to hang out with is another matter
entirely... (Hell, that's how this tread got here. By superhuman effort
I managed to make contact with somebody, and it *still* didn't help.)
>> Hmm, let me see... Yeah, I guess I have only been doing this for 20
>> years now.
>
> You've been playing and seriously studying music for 20 years?
I started learning to play the violin when I was 9, and I've been
playing keyboard instruments ever since, so... yes.
>> Like I said, I've been playing various musical instruments for about 75%
>> of my entire life so far. It seems unlikely I'm ever going to get
>> significantly better now.
>
> Nonsense. World class musicians improve their technique every day.
I'm sure I'll continue to get better. I said I doubt I'm going to get
*significantly* better. (As in, suddenly wake up tomorrow and be a
virtuoso organist or something.)
>> Heh, well... at least somebody liked it.
>
> Just because you don't get thousands of people saying "hey that's cool"
> doesn't mean only one person liked it or nobody liked it.
That's what it feels like.
> I personally
> don't do a good job of telling people they've done a good job at
> something because it always sounds fake to me, even though I mean it
> sincerely.
Mmm... yeah, I kinda know what you mean. "That was good" sounds kind of
lame.
> If something makes me unhappy, I never stop trying to change my
> circumstances. If it takes me the rest of my life, I'll keep trying.
You're clearly a very much stronger person than I am.
During my life, I've learned that trying leads to failure, and not
trying leads to failure, and basically *everything* leads to failure. It
doesn't seem to matter what I do, I just fail all the time. Now,
logically, I know that if I don't try I can't possible succeed... but
it's still *seriously* hard to try things when your entire life
experience tells you it's hopeless. (And there's nobody standing next to
you to encourage you.)
> When it comes to looking for the perfect job, you should never stop
> looking.
Makes sense...
>> Like I said, I asked about a position in *Strathclyde*. (I don't even
>> know where that is.) I was fully prepaired to head over there if they'd
>> actually be interested. But no... nothing ever came of it.
>
> How many times did you contact them?
Only once. They're not deaf.
>> Yes. Because I don't *like* driving. This is something I want to *stop*
>> doing.
>
> There are really two options: Find something closer to home, or move
> your home. Don't limit yourself to the option of just finding work
> nearer to home. If there aren't jobs where you're looking, then option 2
> has to be a consideration.
I happen to *like* living in MK. It's one of the few places I've seen
that isn't old and run-down. And it has a sane road system.
(On the other hand, living somewhere else would make it slightly harder
for my mum to annoy me... I guess that's a small advantage.)
>> Pretty much, yeah. Besides, I have even less idea how to find a flat
>> than I have finding a job. (I did look into this once... Clearly cheap
>> flats exist somewhere, but not where I looked.)
>
> Well, not being an expert in how this is done in the UK, I'm probably not
> the best person to advise. However the words "To Let" seem to be very
> popular on signs in some parts of your country that I've been in. You
> might try those or try a real estate agent - while they look to sell
> properties, I imagine some know a few things about rental properties as
> well.
I guess I'd have to investigate that one.
> Do you want the change? If so, how badly do you want it?
Ah yes, the old "you can do anything if you really want to" mantra.
Shame it's not actually true, but nice idea. (For a quick
counter-example, try turning lead into gold. Good luck with that.)
>> Um... I don't know anybody?
>
> You'd be surprised. Go on, join up, send me an invite to connect
> (hendersj at gmail dot com). Instant network. It's not the connections
> one point away, it's the ones two and three points away that are the most
> interesting. You can get people to introduce you to those connections.
Tomorrow? It's kinda late now...
>>> Well, I know you don't do C++ programming, but I don't see why those
>>> other jobs wouldn't be suitable for you.
>> Um... because I've never worked in a professional capacity at
>> programming in my entire life?
>
> Here's a news flash: Everyone has been at this point in their
> professional life.
Sure. So you start at the bottom and work up. There's absolutely no
point in applying to hyper-senior positions when your CV doesn't back it up.
> Do you think the scientists you work with just woke up one morning with
> the experience and knowledge that got them the jobs they work in?
No - they started at the bottom and worked up. That's what I need to do.
>> What I'm looking for is "trainee Java programmer" or similar - but those
>> jobs don't seem to be advertised anywhere.
>
> Perhaps it's in the word selection - "trainee" maybe isn't a commonly
> used term. Permute the search terms.
I just searched for "programmer". Almost everything that came back was
some sort of management position. :-/
>> Sure. I bet there are customers who have *reasonable expectations*.
>>
>> In some parallel dimension somewhere. Right next to the screwdriver
>> tree. :-P
>
> I deal with customers every single day. There are ones with reasonable
> expectations, and there are unreasonable ones.
Well, it only takes one unreasonable customer to completely ruin your
year, doesn't it.
>> Besides, even if it were possible for a customer to not be horrifyingly
>> abusive and unreasonable... I'm a computer programmer. I'm not a
>> salesman. I'm not customer relations officer. I'm not a management
>> consultant. AND I DON'T WANT TO BE. I just want to be left alone to
>> write computer programs. Is that so hard? You know, having a job that
>> utilises my actual skills rather than requiring a whole bunch of skills
>> I don't have?
>
> 10 years ago, I wouldn't have thought I'd be in a customer facing
> position. I got into technology because I hated dealing with people.
>
> It took nearly 20 years for me to get to the point of dealing with people
> effectively. And I've found that I'm actually pretty good at it - which
> was a real shock and surprise.
>
> Don't be afraid to try new things. You might just find that you're good
> at it and that you like it. But you have to set aside your preconceived
> notions.
Dealing with people (especially nontechnical people) is one of the
things about my current job that I hate the most. They have no clue what
they're talking about, no idea what they actually want, but they want it
20 seconds ago, and if they don't get it, well that's just not good
enough and I don't give a damn how difficult it is for you. I *own* you
and you will do as you're told, bitch!
At least dealing with technical people, they know what they want you to
do, and they know when you've done it.
> You are
> correct that it's not exactly an employee-friendly market at this point
> But that doesn't mean you can't get what you want, you just need
> to negotiate from a starting point that's farther out than you might
> otherwise - but not too far out for them to consider your offer.
I'm not sure I follow...
> Of course one of the best rules I've heard of negotiation is to not be
> the first to put a number on the table.
Sort of like the theory that a truly great warrior always lets his
opponent strike the first blow? Mmm, interesting...
>>> Well, there again, if you stop looking, you'll never find it, and this
>>> becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it? I suppose at least
>>> then you can say "hey, I was right, it doesn't exist".
>> I have been looking for quite some time though.
>
> When did you last actively look?
If I remember rightly, sometime in the middle of April was the last time
I contacted anyone about a serious job opportunity.
>> No, it generally means "we have no concept of what your job actually
>> involves. We therefore expect you to be able to perform miracles with no
>> support or resources, and we get cranky when you tell us that some vital
>> item *won't* be a 20-second job. And we won't even bother to thank you
>> when you do get something right." No thanks...
>
> Again, your experience is based on one company.
I had *hoped* that only one company could be this broken. The Daily WTF
seems to present conclusive proof that actually this kind of thing is
ubiquitous in the IT industry.
> I am telling you that
> while there are places like that, not all places are.
How do you find the non-WTF jobs though?! :-S
>> I think it's more that the entire Haskell mailing list regards me as a
>> troll. Presumably my reputation preceeds me.
>
> Don't presume and don't assume. You didn't answer my question, though -
> did you send just one request and give up when you didn't get a response,
> or did you follow up?
They send to email this address. I emailled the address. Nothing ever
happened. The end.
>> Usually adverts don't state who the real employer is. (Because then you
>> could just phone them and the agency wouldn't get their cut of the
>> money.) So if you're going with that approach, it's basically down to
>> selecting companies at random and trying to contact them. 100% stress.
>
> Then don't go through the agency. Does your local paper carry classified
> ads?
Yeah, sure - you can find no end of requests for lorry drivers and
secretaries. (And for some reason Yamaha is *constantly* after piano
tuners... You'd have thought that vacancy would be filled by now, right?
But that ad has been appearing for *years* now...) Absolutely nothing
related to IT.
(Similarly, all the agencies I went and spoke to, 80% of them said "oh
no, we don't do IT any more".)
> I mentioned LinkedIn before - job postings are made there fairly
> regularly as well, and you know who the company is. Companies don't just
> recruit through job agencies, they use multiple avenues.
Well, maybe.
>> I'm extremely bad at this sort of thing. Typically takes me 4 to 7 days
>> to work up the nerve to make one single phone call. I doubt being a
>> nervous wreck is the way to impress employers.
>
> The more you do it, the more confident you'll become.
False.
I've done this many, many times now, and it never actually gets any
easier. Sure, you know the person at the other end can't actually find
out where you live, hunt you down and kill you. But they can shout at
you, which is almost as bad...
> Hey, you gained
> the confidence to contact a total stranger the other day, and like I said
> earlier, that's progress.
That was more an act of extreme desperation than anything else, but sure.
>> See, now, much as I'd *like* to believe that I'm right and the entire
>> world is in fact wrong... seems a little delusional, doesn't it?
>
> Not at all. They don't know you as well as you know you.
I see...
> You're honest, hard working, intelligent, and like to learn
> things. Those are very important traits and if they can't see that, then
> it's their loss.
Well, see, *I* think I'm honest and intelligent and so on. But when the
entire world continues to completely disagree with you, it's really hard
to keep telling yourself that it's true.
If I'm really such a great person, why doesn't anybody else think so?
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On Sun, 03 May 2009 22:27:49 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> You are getting out more, spending time around people. You've taken up
>> dancing classes. You've started talking to people that are total
>> strangers.
>>
>> This is not an exhaustive list, just the first few things that popped
>> into my head.
>
> Well, at least the dance classes are going better than the drawing
> classes I did last year...
But even that was a step in the right direction.
> I wish I _was_ getting out more. I keep trying to make this happen, but
> it's nearly impossible to get it working. I mean, I can be "outside"
> easily enough. But finding people to hang out with is another matter
> entirely... (Hell, that's how this tread got here. By superhuman effort
> I managed to make contact with somebody, and it *still* didn't help.)
Grab a book and go down to the local pub or the library and sit and
read. If someone sees you reading something interesting, perhaps they'll
come over and talk to you about it. Perhaps not. But if you're not out
there, they don't have the opportunity at all.
>>> Hmm, let me see... Yeah, I guess I have only been doing this for 20
>>> years now.
>>
>> You've been playing and seriously studying music for 20 years?
>
> I started learning to play the violin when I was 9, and I've been
> playing keyboard instruments ever since, so... yes.
OK.
>>> Like I said, I've been playing various musical instruments for about
>>> 75% of my entire life so far. It seems unlikely I'm ever going to get
>>> significantly better now.
>>
>> Nonsense. World class musicians improve their technique every day.
>
> I'm sure I'll continue to get better. I said I doubt I'm going to get
> *significantly* better. (As in, suddenly wake up tomorrow and be a
> virtuoso organist or something.)
Um, nobody wakes up and becomes a virtuoso overnight.
>>> Heh, well... at least somebody liked it.
>>
>> Just because you don't get thousands of people saying "hey that's cool"
>> doesn't mean only one person liked it or nobody liked it.
>
> That's what it feels like.
Start with the assumption that people like it. Hey, you've posted the
audio and video files, that's more than I've done with the things I'm
good at. Don't stop posting them, and at the same time, don't be
discouraged just because people don't fall at your feet and praise your
musical genius.
>> I personally
>> don't do a good job of telling people they've done a good job at
>> something because it always sounds fake to me, even though I mean it
>> sincerely.
>
> Mmm... yeah, I kinda know what you mean. "That was good" sounds kind of
> lame.
Yeah, and especially in writing, it's hard to express enthusiasm (at
least it is for me) in a way that doesn't sound fake. That doesn't mean
I'm not impressed, it means I can't find the words to express my reaction.
>> If something makes me unhappy, I never stop trying to change my
>> circumstances. If it takes me the rest of my life, I'll keep trying.
>
> You're clearly a very much stronger person than I am.
You can be. Just don't give up.
> During my life, I've learned that trying leads to failure, and not
> trying leads to failure, and basically *everything* leads to failure. It
> doesn't seem to matter what I do, I just fail all the time. Now,
> logically, I know that if I don't try I can't possible succeed... but
> it's still *seriously* hard to try things when your entire life
> experience tells you it's hopeless. (And there's nobody standing next to
> you to encourage you.)
Well, I'm encouraging you. Don't give up. It's good that you recognise
that not trying guarantees failure. Trying sometimes also leads to
failure. But the one thing you get even out of failure is experience,
and experience is a positive thing if you learn from it. And by "learn
from it" I don't mean learn that it's futile, I mean learn about how
people react to things and then change your approach so people react more
favorably. It takes time, and it takes practice.
>> When it comes to looking for the perfect job, you should never stop
>> looking.
>
> Makes sense...
Like I said, been there, done that. Was a period of my life where I was
quitting a job every 18 months or so while trying to find the right fit.
I am pretty happy where I am now, but that doesn't mean I'm not keeping
my eyes open for the next opportunity.
>>> Like I said, I asked about a position in *Strathclyde*. (I don't even
>>> know where that is.) I was fully prepaired to head over there if
>>> they'd actually be interested. But no... nothing ever came of it.
>>
>> How many times did you contact them?
>
> Only once. They're not deaf.
They may not be deaf, but suppose that a less qualified individual
contacted them 5 times or 10 times and got YOUR job because they showed
more interest than you? You have to be persistent or they're not going
to think your serious about wanting the job.
They are just as likely to assume "if I hear from this kid once and he
expresses no more interest, he must've gotten a much better job somewhere
else, so why bother contacting him when I've got this other candidate,
maybe less qualified, but clearly wants this job - we'll go with him
instead because he's made our job easier."
>>> Yes. Because I don't *like* driving. This is something I want to
>>> *stop* doing.
>>
>> There are really two options: Find something closer to home, or move
>> your home. Don't limit yourself to the option of just finding work
>> nearer to home. If there aren't jobs where you're looking, then option
>> 2 has to be a consideration.
>
> I happen to *like* living in MK. It's one of the few places I've seen
> that isn't old and run-down. And it has a sane road system.
>
> (On the other hand, living somewhere else would make it slightly harder
> for my mum to annoy me... I guess that's a small advantage.)
I really liked the area I grew up in. I didn't like a lot of the people
I went to school with, but I did like the neighborhood. But I also
needed to get away from my parents, so I moved across the country.
I went to school in Florida, and now live in Utah. I grew up in
Minnesota. And I like going back there.
If you want a sane road system, move to Utah. The city is on a grid.
Doesn't get much more sane than that. The people are nice, the weather's
pretty moderate (gets bloody hot in the summers at times, though, "but
it's a dry heat". Yeah, but dry or not, it's still damned hot).
Getting out on your own would probably be very good for you.
>>> Pretty much, yeah. Besides, I have even less idea how to find a flat
>>> than I have finding a job. (I did look into this once... Clearly cheap
>>> flats exist somewhere, but not where I looked.)
>>
>> Well, not being an expert in how this is done in the UK, I'm probably
>> not the best person to advise. However the words "To Let" seem to be
>> very popular on signs in some parts of your country that I've been in.
>> You might try those or try a real estate agent - while they look to
>> sell properties, I imagine some know a few things about rental
>> properties as well.
>
> I guess I'd have to investigate that one.
That's a good start. Now go and do it. :-)
>> Do you want the change? If so, how badly do you want it?
>
> Ah yes, the old "you can do anything if you really want to" mantra.
> Shame it's not actually true, but nice idea. (For a quick
> counter-example, try turning lead into gold. Good luck with that.)
You didn't answer my question. Do you want the change? And if so, how
badly do you want it? What are you willing to do in order to ENSURE that
it happens?
I'm not saying you can become an astronaut if you don't have the
qualifications. But I am saying that it's your life and you ultimately
are in control of what happens. It may not feel like it at times - as
I've said, I know that all too well. Getting asked to resign from a job
left me feeling completely out of control. I wallowed in self pity for a
few months, and then got off my ass and started to do something about
it. And I didn't do it alone, I had help, used my network of contacts
(small as it seemed to me at the time) and got things back on track.
>>> Um... I don't know anybody?
>>
>> You'd be surprised. Go on, join up, send me an invite to connect
>> (hendersj at gmail dot com). Instant network. It's not the
>> connections one point away, it's the ones two and three points away
>> that are the most interesting. You can get people to introduce you to
>> those connections.
>
> Tomorrow? It's kinda late now...
Tomorrow's fine. I check my e-mail regularly.
>>>> Well, I know you don't do C++ programming, but I don't see why those
>>>> other jobs wouldn't be suitable for you.
>>> Um... because I've never worked in a professional capacity at
>>> programming in my entire life?
>>
>> Here's a news flash: Everyone has been at this point in their
>> professional life.
>
> Sure. So you start at the bottom and work up. There's absolutely no
> point in applying to hyper-senior positions when your CV doesn't back it
> up.
Yes and no - there can be a point because you might find something
unadvertised that's open, or they may find that you meet a need they
didn't know they had. I told you how I interviewed for a software
engineering position that I was seriously unqualified for. That was the
first time I applied for a job at Novell. The second time was a
consulting position (and like you, I didn't want to do the customer-
facing stuff at that time, and I wasn't overly impressed with the pay
scale, either). The third time, I interviewed for a teaching position -
I didn't think I'd get it because I had no instructional skills
whatsoever. The closest I'd done to teaching a classroom full of
students was presenting an hour-long session at a conference a few
times. And that's a LOT different than teaching a class with hands-on
labs.
But I got that position - in no small part because I did an interview
with the engineers who interviewed me in the first interview and they
remembered me and my skills from that first interview.
And they recommended me for the teaching job on that basis.
So while the first interview was - as you might say - pointless because I
was hideously underqualified, it played into a later interview that got
me a job that I really enjoyed.
Oh, and you know what - the teaching bit? They trained me on how to do
it, saying that my technical skills were top-notch and teaching is
something that I could learn.
>> Do you think the scientists you work with just woke up one morning with
>> the experience and knowledge that got them the jobs they work in?
>
> No - they started at the bottom and worked up. That's what I need to do.
Yes. But they have to start somewhere, and so do you. And you have by
taking a sysadmin job.
>>> What I'm looking for is "trainee Java programmer" or similar - but
>>> those jobs don't seem to be advertised anywhere.
>>
>> Perhaps it's in the word selection - "trainee" maybe isn't a commonly
>> used term. Permute the search terms.
>
> I just searched for "programmer". Almost everything that came back was
> some sort of management position. :-/
Maybe it's time to search again. Available jobs isn't a static list. :-)
>>> Sure. I bet there are customers who have *reasonable expectations*.
>>>
>>> In some parallel dimension somewhere. Right next to the screwdriver
>>> tree. :-P
>>
>> I deal with customers every single day. There are ones with reasonable
>> expectations, and there are unreasonable ones.
>
> Well, it only takes one unreasonable customer to completely ruin your
> year, doesn't it.
Surprisingly, no. I had one a few weeks ago who threatened to sue the
company if I didn't do what he wanted. What he wanted was completely
unreasonable. But he said the magic words "I'll get my lawyer involved
if I have to" so he became someone else's problem.
I had another who had a problem taking an exam he wasn't fully prepared
to take and he wanted us - rather, demanded - that we pay his travel
expenses. I told him no, and the "no" stuck. He ended up taking the
exam and he failed it.
Neither of these guys ruined my year. In fact I've had a pretty good
year so far.
By your premise, anyone who works in a customer-facing position should
never have a good year because all customers are unreasonable. Yet most
people who deal with customers don't have bad years and stay with it.
It's not because they're masochists, it's because they learn how to deal
with people who are being unreasonable in a constructive way.
>>> Besides, even if it were possible for a customer to not be
>>> horrifyingly abusive and unreasonable... I'm a computer programmer.
>>> I'm not a salesman. I'm not customer relations officer. I'm not a
>>> management consultant. AND I DON'T WANT TO BE. I just want to be left
>>> alone to write computer programs. Is that so hard? You know, having a
>>> job that utilises my actual skills rather than requiring a whole bunch
>>> of skills I don't have?
>>
>> 10 years ago, I wouldn't have thought I'd be in a customer facing
>> position. I got into technology because I hated dealing with people.
>>
>> It took nearly 20 years for me to get to the point of dealing with
>> people effectively. And I've found that I'm actually pretty good at it
>> - which was a real shock and surprise.
>>
>> Don't be afraid to try new things. You might just find that you're
>> good at it and that you like it. But you have to set aside your
>> preconceived notions.
>
> Dealing with people (especially nontechnical people) is one of the
> things about my current job that I hate the most. They have no clue what
> they're talking about, no idea what they actually want, but they want it
> 20 seconds ago, and if they don't get it, well that's just not good
> enough and I don't give a damn how difficult it is for you. I *own* you
> and you will do as you're told, bitch!
You deal with some pretty crappy people, then. They take advantage of
the fact that you won't stand up for yourself, and they depend on that.
Don't let them get away with it. Yes, it's hard to deal with if you
don't have the practice.
Point out to them that if it's so damned easy, they can do it
themselves. When they realise they can't, then you tell them that's why
you're there - because it's NOT easy and you happen to have the skills.
So if they want you to fix something for them that they are clearly not
capable of fixing on their own, they are going to have to show you a
little damned respect.
> At least dealing with technical people, they know what they want you to
> do, and they know when you've done it.
That's not a guarantee. I deal with technical people on a daily basis
and if they don't understand the technology being used, they're just as
clueless as a user asking for help with a Word macro. I've got one who
insists that because LDAP can't sort a search output on two keys, it's
completely unsuitable for any data storage whatsoever. His background is
in database technologies, and he doesn't understand the benefits of non-
SQL database solutions to store identities.
He's completely wrong in his assumptions, but won't be told any
differently, even by people with expertise in the technology he's
disparaging. At the same time, he talks about one of his coworkers like
the guy has no technical skills at all (I've known the guy he's talking
about for about 15 years and I know he's pretty sharp) and points out
every mistake the other guy makes.
Point is, technical people are not immune to demonstrating the dumb.
>> You are
>> correct that it's not exactly an employee-friendly market at this point
>> But that doesn't mean you can't get what you want, you just need to
>> negotiate from a starting point that's farther out than you might
>> otherwise - but not too far out for them to consider your offer.
>
> I'm not sure I follow...
Using the example of purchasing an item where you negotiate the price.
If the end price you want to pay is $1000, you don't open your offer at
$1000 because the other person is going to start at, say, $2000.
You start at $500 to give yourself a place to work up from.
So they start at $2000, you offer $500, they offer $1500, you offer
$1000, and they agree.
If you start at $1000, you're likely to end up closer to their opening
offer of $2000.
Does that make sense?
>> Of course one of the best rules I've heard of negotiation is to not be
>> the first to put a number on the table.
>
> Sort of like the theory that a truly great warrior always lets his
> opponent strike the first blow? Mmm, interesting...
Sort of, yeah. Negotiation is a skill that can be learned.
>>>> Well, there again, if you stop looking, you'll never find it, and
>>>> this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it? I suppose at
>>>> least then you can say "hey, I was right, it doesn't exist".
>>> I have been looking for quite some time though.
>>
>> When did you last actively look?
>
> If I remember rightly, sometime in the middle of April was the last time
> I contacted anyone about a serious job opportunity.
So it's been a couple of weeks. When's the last time you followed up
with them? Follow-up is important.
>>> No, it generally means "we have no concept of what your job actually
>>> involves. We therefore expect you to be able to perform miracles with
>>> no support or resources, and we get cranky when you tell us that some
>>> vital item *won't* be a 20-second job. And we won't even bother to
>>> thank you when you do get something right." No thanks...
>>
>> Again, your experience is based on one company.
>
> I had *hoped* that only one company could be this broken. The Daily WTF
> seems to present conclusive proof that actually this kind of thing is
> ubiquitous in the IT industry.
It's not just one company, but it's also not all companies. The Daily
WTF doesn't represent all experiences. It only represents the ones that
make you go "WTF?" or the ones that are funny.
It wouldn't go to their title to report on an admin who's treated by the
staff like a normal human being, would it? It might make people ask "WTF
is up with TDWTF?", but that's about it.
>> I am telling you that
>> while there are places like that, not all places are.
>
> How do you find the non-WTF jobs though?! :-S
By wading through the ones that are. You have to interview them when
they interview you. The interview is not the one-way process that most
people seem to think it is. It's a chance for them to get you, but also
a chance for you to get to know them and see if it's a good fit for you.
Most people don't take the opportunity to interview the prospective
employer. A lot of people, when asked if they have any questions about
the job of the company respond with some variation of "not at this time"
- but "this time" is the perfect opportunity. Ask to speak to some of
the people on the team you're becoming a part of, and ask them what daily
life is like, if there's anything that makes them shake their head, how
the users treat them as technical staff. It never hurts to ask what
you're getting into - and asking if you can ask those questions also
tells the prospective employer that you're serious about wanting the job,
but also about wanting the job to be a good fit for you.
>>> I think it's more that the entire Haskell mailing list regards me as a
>>> troll. Presumably my reputation preceeds me.
>>
>> Don't presume and don't assume. You didn't answer my question, though
>> - did you send just one request and give up when you didn't get a
>> response, or did you follow up?
>
> They send to email this address. I emailled the address. Nothing ever
> happened. The end.
E-mail again, and ask if your previous message got to them. Maybe it got
caught in a spam folder for some reason. Maybe they got it and
accidentally marked it read but meant to follow up on it with you.
There's a lot of reasonable reasons why they may have not followed up
with you besides "they hate my guts and wish I would go away".
>>> Usually adverts don't state who the real employer is. (Because then
>>> you could just phone them and the agency wouldn't get their cut of the
>>> money.) So if you're going with that approach, it's basically down to
>>> selecting companies at random and trying to contact them. 100% stress.
>>
>> Then don't go through the agency. Does your local paper carry
>> classified ads?
>
> Yeah, sure - you can find no end of requests for lorry drivers and
> secretaries. (And for some reason Yamaha is *constantly* after piano
> tuners... You'd have thought that vacancy would be filled by now, right?
> But that ad has been appearing for *years* now...) Absolutely nothing
> related to IT.
Maybe they need more than one. Who knows?
Maybe there's other places where classified ads are posted that you're
not looking.
> (Similarly, all the agencies I went and spoke to, 80% of them said "oh
> no, we don't do IT any more".)
Then those are ones not to talk to if you want to stay in IT.
>> I mentioned LinkedIn before - job postings are made there fairly
>> regularly as well, and you know who the company is. Companies don't
>> just recruit through job agencies, they use multiple avenues.
>
> Well, maybe.
Trust me, they do. I occasionally work with people who are hiring for
various positions, and have some friends/former co-workers who work as
recruiters. The successful ones look and post in multiple venues.
>>> I'm extremely bad at this sort of thing. Typically takes me 4 to 7
>>> days to work up the nerve to make one single phone call. I doubt being
>>> a nervous wreck is the way to impress employers.
>>
>> The more you do it, the more confident you'll become.
>
> False.
Oh, really? Worked for me, so I'll call your "false" and raise you a
"true".
> I've done this many, many times now, and it never actually gets any
> easier. Sure, you know the person at the other end can't actually find
> out where you live, hunt you down and kill you. But they can shout at
> you, which is almost as bad...
Trust me, it isn't. You can always hang up on them if they start
shouting at you.
>> Hey, you gained
>> the confidence to contact a total stranger the other day, and like I
>> said earlier, that's progress.
>
> That was more an act of extreme desperation than anything else, but
> sure.
Think of it as gained confidence.
>>> See, now, much as I'd *like* to believe that I'm right and the entire
>>> world is in fact wrong... seems a little delusional, doesn't it?
>>
>> Not at all. They don't know you as well as you know you.
>
> I see...
Good. Now continue that thinking and say to yourself "if they don't
think I'm good enough, they're wrong. They just don't know me well
enough and are idiots for not taking the time to learn any better."
>> You're honest, hard working, intelligent, and like to learn things.
>> Those are very important traits and if they can't see that, then it's
>> their loss.
>
> Well, see, *I* think I'm honest and intelligent and so on. But when the
> entire world continues to completely disagree with you, it's really hard
> to keep telling yourself that it's true.
>
> If I'm really such a great person, why doesn't anybody else think so?
Um, you're talking to someone who does think so. Several others here
have said so. But you seem to insist that we must be wrong. ;-)
Don't forget that there are actual human beings on the other end of the
words you're reading on the screen right now.
Jim
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> During my life, I've learned that trying leads to failure, and not
> trying leads to failure, and basically *everything* leads to failure. It
> doesn't seem to matter what I do, I just fail all the time. Now,
> logically, I know that if I don't try I can't possible succeed... but
> it's still *seriously* hard to try things when your entire life
> experience tells you it's hopeless. (And there's nobody standing next to
> you to encourage you.)
Murphy's law book has it as:
Negative expectations lead to negative results.
Positive expectations lead to negative results.
But that whole book is supposed to be funny, not summarize the nature of the
universe, even when you say "that's soooo true" at most of what it says :)
> I just searched for "programmer". Almost everything that came back was
> some sort of management position. :-/
Look for a better place to do your searches then, that search engine sounds
buggy.
> I had *hoped* that only one company could be this broken. The Daily WTF
> seems to present conclusive proof that actually this kind of thing is
> ubiquitous in the IT industry.
While employees in other companies enjoy life and read (but don't post to)
the Daily WTF.
http://niniane.org/gds.html
> (Similarly, all the agencies I went and spoke to, 80% of them said "oh
> no, we don't do IT any more".)
Like Jim said, maybe IT doesn't "do agencies" anymore, they're all in
linkedin and friends?
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>> I wish I _was_ getting out more. I keep trying to make this happen, but
>> it's nearly impossible to get it working. I mean, I can be "outside"
>> easily enough. But finding people to hang out with is another matter
>> entirely... (Hell, that's how this tread got here. By superhuman effort
>> I managed to make contact with somebody, and it *still* didn't help.)
>
> Grab a book and go down to the local pub or the library and sit and
> read. If someone sees you reading something interesting, perhaps they'll
> come over and talk to you about it. Perhaps not. But if you're not out
> there, they don't have the opportunity at all.
Heh. I can just see me sitting on the pub reading Godel, Escher, Bach. ;-)
[Which I haven't opened yet, BTW.]
>>> How many times did you contact them?
>> Only once. They're not deaf.
>
> They may not be deaf, but suppose that a less qualified individual
> contacted them 5 times or 10 times and got YOUR job because they showed
> more interest than you? You have to be persistent or they're not going
> to think your serious about wanting the job.
...or maybe because to do an internship you have to already be doing a
PhD? (And I'm not.)
> They are just as likely to assume "if I hear from this kid once and he
> expresses no more interest, he must've gotten a much better job somewhere
> else, so why bother contacting him when I've got this other candidate,
> maybe less qualified, but clearly wants this job - we'll go with him
> instead because he's made our job easier."
Hey, it was hard enough sending the first email, without putting myself
through all that again for no benefit.
> Getting out on your own would probably be very good for you.
Heh. Unless you believe me mum, who's been doing a sterling job of
conditioning be to believe that I "couldn't cope" by myself. (Gee,
wonder why that might be...)
> You didn't answer my question. Do you want the change? And if so, how
> badly do you want it? What are you willing to do in order to ENSURE that
> it happens?
>
> I'm not saying you can become an astronaut if you don't have the
> qualifications. But I am saying that it's your life and you ultimately
> are in control of what happens. It may not feel like it at times - as
> I've said, I know that all too well. Getting asked to resign from a job
> left me feeling completely out of control. I wallowed in self pity for a
> few months, and then got off my ass and started to do something about
> it. And I didn't do it alone, I had help, used my network of contacts
> (small as it seemed to me at the time) and got things back on track.
Sure. There are hardly any adverts for programmers out there. I can
*totally* control that. When I apply to people, they ignore me or
summarily reject me. That's in my control too.
>> Sure. So you start at the bottom and work up. There's absolutely no
>> point in applying to hyper-senior positions when your CV doesn't back it
>> up.
>
> Yes and no - there can be a point because you might find something
> unadvertised that's open, or they may find that you meet a need they
> didn't know they had.
Or, more realistically, your application will summarily be removed
during the paper sift before they even get as far as interviewing anybody.
>>> Do you think the scientists you work with just woke up one morning with
>>> the experience and knowledge that got them the jobs they work in?
>> No - they started at the bottom and worked up. That's what I need to do.
>
> Yes. But they have to start somewhere, and so do you. And you have by
> taking a sysadmin job.
System administration is entirely unrelated to my target area.
> Maybe it's time to search again. Available jobs isn't a static list. :-)
No, but the number and type of jobs on offer is.
> By your premise, anyone who works in a customer-facing position should
> never have a good year because all customers are unreasonable.
Are you telling me this *isn't* the case?
>> Dealing with people (especially nontechnical people) is one of the
>> things about my current job that I hate the most. They have no clue what
>> they're talking about, no idea what they actually want, but they want it
>> 20 seconds ago, and if they don't get it, well that's just not good
>> enough and I don't give a damn how difficult it is for you. I *own* you
>> and you will do as you're told, bitch!
>
> You deal with some pretty crappy people, then.
Yes. They're called "people". (And some folk wonder why I often try to
avoid people...)
> They take advantage of
> the fact that you won't stand up for yourself, and they depend on that.
> Don't let them get away with it.
I couldn't stand up for myself if my life depended on it (which,
arguably, it does).
This is why I want to avoid situations where I'm going to be bullied in
the first place.
>> At least dealing with technical people, they know what they want you to
>> do, and they know when you've done it.
>
> That's not a guarantee.
True, but you stand a somewhat better chance.
>>> You are
>>> correct that it's not exactly an employee-friendly market at this point
>>> But that doesn't mean you can't get what you want, you just need to
>>> negotiate from a starting point that's farther out than you might
>>> otherwise - but not too far out for them to consider your offer.
>> I'm not sure I follow...
>
> Using the example of purchasing an item where you negotiate the price.
>
> If the end price you want to pay is $1000, you don't open your offer at
> $1000 because the other person is going to start at, say, $2000.
>
> You start at $500 to give yourself a place to work up from.
>
> So they start at $2000, you offer $500, they offer $1500, you offer
> $1000, and they agree.
>
> If you start at $1000, you're likely to end up closer to their opening
> offer of $2000.
>
> Does that make sense?
Yeah, sure. But I still don't get the whole "there are no jobs available
right now, but that doesn't mean you can't get a job". Um, no, that's
*exactly* what it means. I'm confused...
>>> When did you last actively look?
>> If I remember rightly, sometime in the middle of April was the last time
>> I contacted anyone about a serious job opportunity.
>
> So it's been a couple of weeks. When's the last time you followed up
> with them? Follow-up is important.
The specific job in question turned out to be unsuitable, so I let it go.
But you're right. I need to find some time to do another search. It's
just hard to face something that's going to take hours and not produce
results.
>> How do you find the non-WTF jobs though?! :-S
>
> By wading through the ones that are. You have to interview them when
> they interview you. The interview is not the one-way process that most
> people seem to think it is. It's a chance for them to get you, but also
> a chance for you to get to know them and see if it's a good fit for you.
So far during my job search, I've been to exactly 1 interview. As you
may recall, the interviewer appeared to be attempting to invent a
position to hire me for. In the end, however, I didn't get hired. I'm
actually kinda glad; didn't look like a great place to work. The staff
seemed a little... immature? (Kinda like the stereotypical bank
executives on that ad on TV.)
>> They send to email this address. I emailled the address. Nothing ever
>> happened. The end.
>
> E-mail again, and ask if your previous message got to them. Maybe it got
> caught in a spam folder for some reason. Maybe they got it and
> accidentally marked it read but meant to follow up on it with you.
> There's a lot of reasonable reasons why they may have not followed up
> with you besides "they hate my guts and wish I would go away".
And if it got filtered the first time, why won't it get filtered the
second time? Besides, it was weeks ago now. It's kinda too late.
> Maybe there's other places where classified ads are posted that you're
> not looking.
As I say, jobs must exist _somewhere_. I'm just not finding them.
>> I've done this many, many times now, and it never actually gets any
>> easier. Sure, you know the person at the other end can't actually find
>> out where you live, hunt you down and kill you. But they can shout at
>> you, which is almost as bad...
>
> Trust me, it isn't. You can always hang up on them if they start
> shouting at you.
Sure. But I'm still going to feel terribly for the rest of the month.
It's still going to keep me awake at night. And, in all likelihood, I'm
still going to have to call them back at some point. [Depending on why
the call in the first place, obviously.]
>>> Hey, you gained
>>> the confidence to contact a total stranger the other day, and like I
>>> said earlier, that's progress.
>> That was more an act of extreme desperation than anything else, but
>> sure.
>
> Think of it as gained confidence.
It turns out there's a fine line between confidence and stupidity.
>> If I'm really such a great person, why doesn't anybody else think so?
>
> Um, you're talking to someone who does think so. Several others here
> have said so. But you seem to insist that we must be wrong. ;-)
>
> Don't forget that there are actual human beings on the other end of the
> words you're reading on the screen right now.
Well, nice to know somebody alive actually likes me...
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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>> I just searched for "programmer". Almost everything that came back was
>> some sort of management position. :-/
>
> Look for a better place to do your searches then, that search engine sounds
> buggy.
Search engines can only return jobs that actually exist.
> Like Jim said, maybe IT doesn't "do agencies" anymore, they're all in
> linkedin and friends?
Perhaps. I don't know.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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>> By your premise, anyone who works in a customer-facing position should
>> never have a good year because all customers are unreasonable.
>
> Are you telling me this *isn't* the case?
>
>>> Dealing with people (especially nontechnical people) is one of the
>>> things about my current job that I hate the most. They have no clue what
>>> they're talking about, no idea what they actually want, but they want it
>>> 20 seconds ago, and if they don't get it, well that's just not good
>>> enough and I don't give a damn how difficult it is for you. I *own* you
>>> and you will do as you're told, bitch!
>>
>> You deal with some pretty crappy people, then.
>
> Yes. They're called "people". (And some folk wonder why I often try to
> avoid people...)
Look for a job where you mostly deal with technical people then. In my line
of work the customers I deal with on a daily basis are doing pretty much the
same job as me, same qualifications, same age range, same tools etc, just on
a different product for a different company. I seem to get on fine with all
of them, we all understand what is possible and what isn't, hardly ever is
there any disagreement, and even when there is it is very professional and
we still end up having a good chat over a beer and dinner later - usually
the cheapest way to get some extra information from the customers.
I remember one meeting where we were given mass production approval for our
first project with this customer after almost two years of Engineering work
together - they had brought champagne and cake in for everyone :-)
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>>>> Dealing with people (especially nontechnical people) is one of the
>>>> things about my current job that I hate the most. They have no clue
>>>> what
>>>> they're talking about, no idea what they actually want, but they
>>>> want it
>>>> 20 seconds ago, and if they don't get it, well that's just not good
>>>> enough and I don't give a damn how difficult it is for you. I *own* you
>>>> and you will do as you're told, bitch!
>>>
>>> You deal with some pretty crappy people, then.
>>
>> Yes. They're called "people". (And some folk wonder why I often try to
>> avoid people...)
>
> Look for a job where you mostly deal with technical people then.
I plan to.
> In my
> line of work the customers I deal with on a daily basis are doing pretty
> much the same job as me, same qualifications, same age range, same tools
> etc, just on a different product for a different company. I seem to get
> on fine with all of them, we all understand what is possible and what
> isn't, hardly ever is there any disagreement, and even when there is it
> is very professional and we still end up having a good chat over a beer
> and dinner later - usually the cheapest way to get some extra
> information from the customers.
Now that sounds more like the kind of thing I want to be doing.
> I remember one meeting where we were given mass production approval for
> our first project with this customer after almost two years of
> Engineering work together - they had brought champagne and cake in for
> everyone :-)
The cake is a lie.
...sorry, couldn't resist! :-D
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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> Now that sounds more like the kind of thing I want to be doing.
It has its disadvantages too, because everyone you work with is doing pretty
similar jobs, you cannot get away with doing things wrong or trying to fob
off people about how long things will take. eg if you try to tell the
customer it will take 6 weeks to make samples, they will know full well
exactly how long it will take to make samples and will pressure you to make
them quicker. Or if you say it will take 1 week to update some drawing,
they will ask why, because it will only take them 1 day.
This is in contrast to your current job I suspect, where most of the people
you work with don't know exactly what you do and how long it takes you.
WARNING if you get a new job you may not have time to post here :-(
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scott wrote:
>> Now that sounds more like the kind of thing I want to be doing.
>
> It has its disadvantages too, because everyone you work with is doing
> pretty similar jobs, you cannot get away with doing things wrong or
> trying to fob off people about how long things will take.
Or mumble something about "the new 8.1 hyperdrive" and expect them to
just go "oh, OK". ;-)
> This is in contrast to your current job I suspect, where most of the
> people you work with don't know exactly what you do and how long it
> takes you.
Generally they just assume everything will take 20 seconds. (And get
upset if it doesn't.)
> WARNING if you get a new job you may not have time to post here :-(
Oh noes. :-P
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On Mon, 04 May 2009 13:14:32 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Heh. I can just see me sitting on the pub reading Godel, Escher, Bach.
> ;-)
>
> [Which I haven't opened yet, BTW.]
Hey, it's a start. :-)
>>>> How many times did you contact them?
>>> Only once. They're not deaf.
>>
>> They may not be deaf, but suppose that a less qualified individual
>> contacted them 5 times or 10 times and got YOUR job because they showed
>> more interest than you? You have to be persistent or they're not going
>> to think your serious about wanting the job.
>
> ...or maybe because to do an internship you have to already be doing a
> PhD? (And I'm not.)
Do you know that for a fact or are you guessing?
>> They are just as likely to assume "if I hear from this kid once and he
>> expresses no more interest, he must've gotten a much better job
>> somewhere else, so why bother contacting him when I've got this other
>> candidate, maybe less qualified, but clearly wants this job - we'll go
>> with him instead because he's made our job easier."
>
> Hey, it was hard enough sending the first email, without putting myself
> through all that again for no benefit.
Potential benefit: They write back to you and say "sorry, we meant to
write back to you and we got busy" or "did you not see our earlier
reply? We assumed after not hearing back from you that you weren't
interested." Yeah, they might've replied and screwed up their reply and
it went to a bitbucket somewhere instead of getting to you.
First rule: Don't assume they intentionally ignored you. Assume they
made a mistake and meant to get back to you.
>> Getting out on your own would probably be very good for you.
>
> Heh. Unless you believe me mum, who's been doing a sterling job of
> conditioning be to believe that I "couldn't cope" by myself. (Gee,
> wonder why that might be...)
Well, based on that statement, it sounds like she's afraid to be living
alone to me. So she is trying to make you believe you couldn't handle it
on your own in order to cover up her own insecurity. Or something like
that.
> Sure. There are hardly any adverts for programmers out there.
That you can find. What you can find is not a representative sample of
what's available if you're not looking in the right places.
> I can
> *totally* control that. When I apply to people, they ignore me or
> summarily reject me. That's in my control too.
Assumptions. You can control what you assume. So don't assume they're
intentionally ignoring you or rejecting you just because you haven't
heard anything back.
>>> Sure. So you start at the bottom and work up. There's absolutely no
>>> point in applying to hyper-senior positions when your CV doesn't back
>>> it up.
>>
>> Yes and no - there can be a point because you might find something
>> unadvertised that's open, or they may find that you meet a need they
>> didn't know they had.
>
> Or, more realistically, your application will summarily be removed
> during the paper sift before they even get as far as interviewing
> anybody.
Going through the side entrance is the way to get noticed, in my
experience. I have gotten jobs that "required" certifications and
college degrees by working around the system rather than through it.
Unconventional approaches work and are far better than being one of a
thousand or even a hundred people going through the "normal" process.
>>>> Do you think the scientists you work with just woke up one morning
>>>> with the experience and knowledge that got them the jobs they work
>>>> in?
>>> No - they started at the bottom and worked up. That's what I need to
>>> do.
>>
>> Yes. But they have to start somewhere, and so do you. And you have by
>> taking a sysadmin job.
>
> System administration is entirely unrelated to my target area.
You want to get into programming? You're wrong, it's totally related.
You write programs to accomplish sysadmin tasks, yes? They may not be OS-
sized software engineering projects, but I know plenty of programmers
(remember where I work - I have spent time working with people who do
software engineering) who have made the move from sysadmin work to
software engineering. It doesn't happen overnight, but don't discount
the experience of administering systems and writing 3-line scripts as
being "unrelated". It's not.
>> Maybe it's time to search again. Available jobs isn't a static list.
>> :-)
>
> No, but the number and type of jobs on offer is.
That's where you're WRONG! The number and type of jobs on offer changes
as positions are filled and opened.
>> By your premise, anyone who works in a customer-facing position should
>> never have a good year because all customers are unreasonable.
>
> Are you telling me this *isn't* the case?
Well, let's see. I work in a customer-facing position. I talk to
customers every single day. I deal with complaints (in fact, I'm the one
my team sends the problem customers *to* because I get results). I have
good years.
So yes, I'm telling you that being customer facing is not a guarantee of
having a bad year, because I live in such a role.
My secret? I've been a customer (indeed we all have). So I put myself
in the customer's shoes and ask myself what it is that I would want in
that situation (I consider myself a pretty reasonable person). Then I
see if it's something I could do. If it is, then I offer it, and usually
that makes the customer happy.
And if I make that offer and they're not happy with it, I know that *I*,
as a reasonable human being, would be happy with it, so then it's not my
problem, it's theirs. And I don't let the bad attitude of someone who is
being unreasonable ruin my day. (And yes, that takes practice).
>>> Dealing with people (especially nontechnical people) is one of the
>>> things about my current job that I hate the most. They have no clue
>>> what they're talking about, no idea what they actually want, but they
>>> want it 20 seconds ago, and if they don't get it, well that's just not
>>> good enough and I don't give a damn how difficult it is for you. I
>>> *own* you and you will do as you're told, bitch!
>>
>> You deal with some pretty crappy people, then.
>
> Yes. They're called "people". (And some folk wonder why I often try to
> avoid people...)
Your implication is that all people are crappy. They're not. You just
have had to deal with people who recognise that you are someone they can
take advantage of and treat badly because you'll just stand there and
take it.
That's why it's important to stand up for yourself, but we'll get to that
in a minute.
>> They take advantage of
>> the fact that you won't stand up for yourself, and they depend on that.
>> Don't let them get away with it.
>
> I couldn't stand up for myself if my life depended on it (which,
> arguably, it does).
You can, though. You just haven't practiced it, and it does take
practice.
You want people to respect you, yes?
One way to get people to respect you is to stand up for yourself when
people are berating you for doing your job.
About 15 years ago or so, I was a part of a team who did online support
on CompuServe. As an incentive to continue helping, we got to go on
trips paid for by the sponsoring company.
One year, the trip was a cruise to the Bahamas. I think that was my
first trip.
A group of three of the guys in the group were the college-type
fraternity boys who stayed out and partied all night. They liked picking
on me, because I was naive and they thought my reactions were funny.
One afternoon on the ship, they decided it was time for a little fun. I
was sitting at the bar with a friend of mine from the group just chatting
and having a good time, and the three of them walked up and said
something to me. To this day, nobody remembers what exactly was said.
But what they said pissed me off, and I told them so. Caught them
*completely* by surprise.
You know what? That's the last time they bothered me. They decided I
was worthy of respect. I still talk to one of them regularly; the other
two dropped out of the program and out of my life.
I now look back at that as a major turning point in my life (odd that,
because nobody does remember what was said or exactly what transpired) -
the moment when I spoke out and the world didn't end or come crashing in
on me.
> This is why I want to avoid situations where I'm going to be bullied in
> the first place.
Nobody seeks out situations like that. But they do happen and it's best
to learn how to deal with them so when they do happen, you can walk away
from it with your head held high. Yeah, it's a bit cliche, but it is
true.
>>> At least dealing with technical people, they know what they want you
>>> to do, and they know when you've done it.
>>
>> That's not a guarantee.
>
> True, but you stand a somewhat better chance.
Depends on the people, really. All people have the ability to be total
shits to others. Some people who don't have technical skills end up in
those jobs as well (it's rare, but it happens), so it's best to prepare
for it.
>> If you start at $1000, you're likely to end up closer to their opening
>> offer of $2000.
>>
>> Does that make sense?
>
> Yeah, sure. But I still don't get the whole "there are no jobs available
> right now, but that doesn't mean you can't get a job". Um, no, that's
> *exactly* what it means. I'm confused...
But we've been over this, there are jobs available, you're just not
finding them. That's different than "there are no jobs available".
>>>> When did you last actively look?
>>> If I remember rightly, sometime in the middle of April was the last
>>> time I contacted anyone about a serious job opportunity.
>>
>> So it's been a couple of weeks. When's the last time you followed up
>> with them? Follow-up is important.
>
> The specific job in question turned out to be unsuitable, so I let it
> go.
>
> But you're right. I need to find some time to do another search. It's
> just hard to face something that's going to take hours and not produce
> results.
Look at it this way: It may produce results, and if it produces a
positive result, then you can start planning to move on from where you
are. That's a positive thing, yes?
>>> How do you find the non-WTF jobs though?! :-S
>>
>> By wading through the ones that are. You have to interview them when
>> they interview you. The interview is not the one-way process that most
>> people seem to think it is. It's a chance for them to get you, but
>> also a chance for you to get to know them and see if it's a good fit
>> for you.
>
> So far during my job search, I've been to exactly 1 interview. As you
> may recall, the interviewer appeared to be attempting to invent a
> position to hire me for. In the end, however, I didn't get hired. I'm
> actually kinda glad; didn't look like a great place to work. The staff
> seemed a little... immature? (Kinda like the stereotypical bank
> executives on that ad on TV.)
From what you described, it sounded like a very relaxed atmosphere - and
that means lower stress. If the company has a good business plan or has
been around for a while, why not? You spend at least 8 hours a day in
the office, so why not someplace where people don't take things too
seriously and where you're not under constant stress?
Here again, if you look for a job and expect to find something that's
just the way the place is that you're in now, then there's a good chance
you will be unhappy at the new job as well - you need a change in
environment.
>>> They send to email this address. I emailled the address. Nothing ever
>>> happened. The end.
>>
>> E-mail again, and ask if your previous message got to them. Maybe it
>> got caught in a spam folder for some reason. Maybe they got it and
>> accidentally marked it read but meant to follow up on it with you.
>> There's a lot of reasonable reasons why they may have not followed up
>> with you besides "they hate my guts and wish I would go away".
>
> And if it got filtered the first time, why won't it get filtered the
> second time? Besides, it was weeks ago now. It's kinda too late.
It's never too late to follow up. Well, maybe 6 months to a year might
be. It may have been filtered for many different reasons - if you don't
try again, you'll never know, right? If you do try again, then there's a
chance you'll find out, and there's a chance you'll get a "whoops, we
thought you weren't interested because you didn't reply to our inquiry
which apparently got lost on the way to you".
There are lots of legitimate reasons why a positive reply might not have
gotten back to you or why someone on their end dropped the ball and
didn't get back to you when they meant to.
>> Maybe there's other places where classified ads are posted that you're
>> not looking.
>
> As I say, jobs must exist _somewhere_. I'm just not finding them.
Right, and that is different from "there are no jobs". Just keep
reminding yourself of that.
>>> I've done this many, many times now, and it never actually gets any
>>> easier. Sure, you know the person at the other end can't actually find
>>> out where you live, hunt you down and kill you. But they can shout at
>>> you, which is almost as bad...
>>
>> Trust me, it isn't. You can always hang up on them if they start
>> shouting at you.
>
> Sure. But I'm still going to feel terribly for the rest of the month.
If someone treats you badly, their opinion isn't important. We all have
to remind ourselves of that from time to time - even in recent history,
if I started counting the number of sleepless nights I've had because
some shit said something mean to me, I'd lose count.
> It's still going to keep me awake at night. And, in all likelihood, I'm
> still going to have to call them back at some point. [Depending on why
> the call in the first place, obviously.]
And when you do, start off with "now are we going to be able to discuss
this like rational, reasonable adults, or are you going to fly off the
handle again?" And if they do, hang up on them again and report the
problem to their boss, and yours. And to HR.
There's no excuse in a professional environment to treat people poorly,
and in most locales there are laws about exactly that. You do not have
to just *take* abuse. As I recall, employment law in the UK tends to
favour the employees, so use that to your advantage. Make a stink about
it when someone treats you badly - but do so without treating them badly
in return. Remain professional and factual.
>>>> Hey, you gained
>>>> the confidence to contact a total stranger the other day, and like I
>>>> said earlier, that's progress.
>>> That was more an act of extreme desperation than anything else, but
>>> sure.
>>
>> Think of it as gained confidence.
>
> It turns out there's a fine line between confidence and stupidity.
Maybe you're not trying to be funny, but that is funny. ;-) The usual
way that is said is "bravery and stupidity". But ultimately, so what?
Again, you had the guts to do something I've never done and even today
never would do (OK, part of that is because I'm happily married <g>).
>>> If I'm really such a great person, why doesn't anybody else think so?
>>
>> Um, you're talking to someone who does think so. Several others here
>> have said so. But you seem to insist that we must be wrong. ;-)
>>
>> Don't forget that there are actual human beings on the other end of the
>> words you're reading on the screen right now.
>
> Well, nice to know somebody alive actually likes me...
I think you'll find that I'm not the only one.
Jim
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>> Heh. I can just see me sitting on the pub reading Godel, Escher, Bach.
>> ;-)
>>
>> [Which I haven't opened yet, BTW.]
>
> Hey, it's a start. :-)
Why don't I just paint a sign on my head saying "hey, I'm a subhuman,
it's OK to come over here and beat me to a pulp"? :-P
>> ...or maybe because to do an internship you have to already be doing a
>> PhD? (And I'm not.)
>
> Do you know that for a fact or are you guessing?
It's a guess. I know MSRC has this requirement, I don't know about the
place I applied. (The ad didn't mention it.)
> First rule: Don't assume they intentionally ignored you. Assume they
> made a mistake and meant to get back to you.
Well, I didn't know what to say with the *first* email, so what do I say
with the second? "Hey, I know I'm so awesom that you must have just
forgetten to reply to me"?
>>> Getting out on your own would probably be very good for you.
>> Heh. Unless you believe me mum, who's been doing a sterling job of
>> conditioning be to believe that I "couldn't cope" by myself. (Gee,
>> wonder why that might be...)
>
> Well, based on that statement, it sounds like she's afraid to be living
> alone to me. So she is trying to make you believe you couldn't handle it
> on your own in order to cover up her own insecurity. Or something like
> that.
More like she wants to keep her slave handy. :-P
>> I can
>> *totally* control that. When I apply to people, they ignore me or
>> summarily reject me. That's in my control too.
>
> Assumptions. You can control what you assume. So don't assume they're
> intentionally ignoring you or rejecting you just because you haven't
> heard anything back.
When somebody writes back and says "we don't want you", I take that as
being a rejection, yes.
> Going through the side entrance is the way to get noticed, in my
> experience. I have gotten jobs that "required" certifications and
> college degrees by working around the system rather than through it.
> Unconventional approaches work and are far better than being one of a
> thousand or even a hundred people going through the "normal" process.
You're probably right about that. Unfortunately, I'm not real sure how
to do that. (Presumably neither is anybody else - which is why the few
who do get noticed.)
>>> Yes. But they have to start somewhere, and so do you. And you have by
>>> taking a sysadmin job.
>> System administration is entirely unrelated to my target area.
>
> You want to get into programming? You're wrong, it's totally related.
> You write programs to accomplish sysadmin tasks, yes? They may not be OS-
> sized software engineering projects, but I know plenty of programmers
> (remember where I work - I have spent time working with people who do
> software engineering) who have made the move from sysadmin work to
> software engineering. It doesn't happen overnight, but don't discount
> the experience of administering systems and writing 3-line scripts as
> being "unrelated". It's not.
I invent tasks that can be solved by programming, yes. I don't *need* to
code anything. It's just a way of doing something fun while pretending
to look busy.
>>> Maybe it's time to search again. Available jobs isn't a static list.
>>> :-)
>> No, but the number and type of jobs on offer is.
>
> That's where you're WRONG! The number and type of jobs on offer changes
> as positions are filled and opened.
Well, I think you'll find the number of vacancies for (say) accountants
vastly outnumbers positions for computer programmers. I doubt it varies
significantly year upon year.
>>> By your premise, anyone who works in a customer-facing position should
>>> never have a good year because all customers are unreasonable.
>> Are you telling me this *isn't* the case?
> So yes, I'm telling you that being customer facing is not a guarantee of
> having a bad year, because I live in such a role.
Interesting. I wouldn't have believed it possible.
OTOH, maybe you're just a different sort of person to me? For me,
talking to strangers is almost unberably stressful - even if it's their
job to *not* upset me! o_O
> One afternoon on the ship, they decided it was time for a little fun. I
> was sitting at the bar with a friend of mine from the group just chatting
> and having a good time, and the three of them walked up and said
> something to me. To this day, nobody remembers what exactly was said.
>
> But what they said pissed me off, and I told them so. Caught them
> *completely* by surprise.
>
> You know what? That's the last time they bothered me. They decided I
> was worthy of respect. I still talk to one of them regularly; the other
> two dropped out of the program and out of my life.
>
> I now look back at that as a major turning point in my life (odd that,
> because nobody does remember what was said or exactly what transpired) -
> the moment when I spoke out and the world didn't end or come crashing in
> on me.
Unfortunately, if I had done that, the three of them would have grabbed
me and beaten me senseless.
Sure, they'd probably be punished for it. But that's not going to help
me when I wake up in hospital, is it? (Assuming I wake up...)
>> So far during my job search, I've been to exactly 1 interview. As you
>> may recall, the interviewer appeared to be attempting to invent a
>> position to hire me for. In the end, however, I didn't get hired. I'm
>> actually kinda glad; didn't look like a great place to work. The staff
>> seemed a little... immature? (Kinda like the stereotypical bank
>> executives on that ad on TV.)
>
> From what you described, it sounded like a very relaxed atmosphere - and
> that means lower stress. If the company has a good business plan or has
> been around for a while, why not? You spend at least 8 hours a day in
> the office, so why not someplace where people don't take things too
> seriously and where you're not under constant stress?
There's "relaxed" and there's "we're a bunch of juvanile twats". Now I
could be wrong about this, but I'm saying when I was there the vibe
didn't feel very good, that's all.
>>> Think of it as gained confidence.
>> It turns out there's a fine line between confidence and stupidity.
>
> Maybe you're not trying to be funny, but that is funny. ;-) The usual
> way that is said is "bravery and stupidity". But ultimately, so what?
> Again, you had the guts to do something I've never done and even today
> never would do (OK, part of that is because I'm happily married <g>).
Heh. Even Marcus, the womanizing wonder said he'd never do that.
...so yeah, more stupid than brave. :-/
>> Well, nice to know somebody alive actually likes me...
>
> I think you'll find that I'm not the only one.
An alternative hypothesis might be that the few other people who like me
are just kinda quiet about it.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On Mon, 04 May 2009 19:46:48 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> Heh. I can just see me sitting on the pub reading Godel, Escher, Bach.
>>> ;-)
>>>
>>> [Which I haven't opened yet, BTW.]
>>
>> Hey, it's a start. :-)
>
> Why don't I just paint a sign on my head saying "hey, I'm a subhuman,
> it's OK to come over here and beat me to a pulp"? :-P
Because in most locales (a) beating someone to a pulp is illegal (it's
called "assault" and can land the perp in jail), and (b) you may well
find that other people are in fact interested in these topics.
>>> ...or maybe because to do an internship you have to already be doing a
>>> PhD? (And I'm not.)
>>
>> Do you know that for a fact or are you guessing?
>
> It's a guess. I know MSRC has this requirement, I don't know about the
> place I applied. (The ad didn't mention it.)
Don't guess, don't assume. Find out the facts. :-)
>> First rule: Don't assume they intentionally ignored you. Assume they
>> made a mistake and meant to get back to you.
>
> Well, I didn't know what to say with the *first* email, so what do I say
> with the second? "Hey, I know I'm so awesom that you must have just
> forgetten to reply to me"?
Just a quick "Hi, I am just following up to my first inquiry about your
open position - is the position still available? I am interested and
would like more information." Reference the position as well.
Keep it short and to the point.
>>>> Getting out on your own would probably be very good for you.
>>> Heh. Unless you believe me mum, who's been doing a sterling job of
>>> conditioning be to believe that I "couldn't cope" by myself. (Gee,
>>> wonder why that might be...)
>>
>> Well, based on that statement, it sounds like she's afraid to be living
>> alone to me. So she is trying to make you believe you couldn't handle
>> it on your own in order to cover up her own insecurity. Or something
>> like that.
>
> More like she wants to keep her slave handy. :-P
Not much of a difference, really. I don't know your mum, but I know my
mum has been going through a very difficult time since my dad passed
away. She laments when I talk to her on the phone that her boys aren't
closer to home (I'm in Utah, my younger brother's in Japan). She says
she's not asking for anyone to come home, but she feels lonely because
there's not a lot of family nearby.
Fear of being alone isn't uncommon. Your mom's gotta be what, in her 40s
or 50s?
>>> I can
>>> *totally* control that. When I apply to people, they ignore me or
>>> summarily reject me. That's in my control too.
>>
>> Assumptions. You can control what you assume. So don't assume they're
>> intentionally ignoring you or rejecting you just because you haven't
>> heard anything back.
>
> When somebody writes back and says "we don't want you", I take that as
> being a rejection, yes.
And when they do, it's their loss. Bin it and move on. I'm not saying
it's easy to do so; I'm saying it's *necessary* to do so.
>> Going through the side entrance is the way to get noticed, in my
>> experience. I have gotten jobs that "required" certifications and
>> college degrees by working around the system rather than through it.
>> Unconventional approaches work and are far better than being one of a
>> thousand or even a hundred people going through the "normal" process.
>
> You're probably right about that. Unfortunately, I'm not real sure how
> to do that. (Presumably neither is anybody else - which is why the few
> who do get noticed.)
Well, I've given you a couple of ideas already. Not all jobs are hidden
from view, so find one that isn't where you know the company and inquire
about it. Find a company that you think you might like to work for and
walk in and ask the receptionist if there are any open positions for
someone with your skills, or if you can speak to someone in the HR
department.
Go on interviews where you are certain you're unqualified but where the
position is one you're interested in and would like to maybe do in 5
years when you are more qualified.
>>>> Yes. But they have to start somewhere, and so do you. And you have
>>>> by taking a sysadmin job.
>>> System administration is entirely unrelated to my target area.
>>
>> You want to get into programming? You're wrong, it's totally related.
>> You write programs to accomplish sysadmin tasks, yes? They may not be
>> OS- sized software engineering projects, but I know plenty of
>> programmers (remember where I work - I have spent time working with
>> people who do software engineering) who have made the move from
>> sysadmin work to software engineering. It doesn't happen overnight,
>> but don't discount the experience of administering systems and writing
>> 3-line scripts as being "unrelated". It's not.
>
> I invent tasks that can be solved by programming, yes. I don't *need* to
> code anything. It's just a way of doing something fun while pretending
> to look busy.
I didn't ask if you *needed* to write code to accomplish the tasks, I
asked if you *did* write code to accomplish the tasks.
You could, for example, go through a repetitive process to, say, update
the password expiry for a group of users. But why? Write a program to
do it and you get to do a little coding and you reduce the monotony.
More to the point, that shows initiative to find ways to do jobs more
efficiently, freeing up time for more important tasks.
That's an important skill. And coding is a skill that many system admins
don't have and also don't have any desire to learn. Their loss, they get
to do things the hard way.
>>>> Maybe it's time to search again. Available jobs isn't a static list.
>>>> :-)
>>> No, but the number and type of jobs on offer is.
>>
>> That's where you're WRONG! The number and type of jobs on offer
>> changes as positions are filled and opened.
>
> Well, I think you'll find the number of vacancies for (say) accountants
> vastly outnumbers positions for computer programmers. I doubt it varies
> significantly year upon year.
And that doubt is based on what factual information? Or again, is it a
guess and/or assumption?
Business evolves, and the need for programmers changes with the business
cycle. I've watched my company let programmers go and then turn around
and rehire them (and others) because the skills are needed.
>>>> By your premise, anyone who works in a customer-facing position
>>>> should never have a good year because all customers are unreasonable.
>>> Are you telling me this *isn't* the case?
>
>> So yes, I'm telling you that being customer facing is not a guarantee
>> of having a bad year, because I live in such a role.
>
> Interesting. I wouldn't have believed it possible.
Well, there you go. Consider for a minute, I'm an intelligent person who
wants to be happy. I wouldn't take a job or stay in a job long that was
frustrating every single day. That doesn't mean I don't have frustrating
days, but it does mean that overall the good significantly outweighs the
bad. When it flips the other way, I'll start looking too - life's too
short to spend 1/3 (or more) of every working day in a place that doesn't
make me happy.
> OTOH, maybe you're just a different sort of person to me? For me,
> talking to strangers is almost unberably stressful - even if it's their
> job to *not* upset me! o_O
You think talking to strangers isn't stressful to me? I hate doing it -
especially cold calls to prospective testing centers. I usually find
someone else to do it for me - and it's something I've got to start doing
more of.
I far prefer talking to people via e-mail because I like to think about
what I'm saying before I say it. I don't think I generally think well on
my feet in a situation like a phone conversation, so I avoid it.
>> I now look back at that as a major turning point in my life (odd that,
>> because nobody does remember what was said or exactly what transpired)
>> - the moment when I spoke out and the world didn't end or come crashing
>> in on me.
>
> Unfortunately, if I had done that, the three of them would have grabbed
> me and beaten me senseless.
Total nonsense. Because, again, assault is illegal. Most people aren't
willing to go to jail for doing something stupid.
> Sure, they'd probably be punished for it. But that's not going to help
> me when I wake up in hospital, is it? (Assuming I wake up...)
As a deterrent, fear of being punished is a pretty strong motivator
against acting out.
>> From what you described, it sounded like a very relaxed atmosphere -
>> and that means lower stress. If the company has a good business plan
>> or has been around for a while, why not? You spend at least 8 hours a
>> day in the office, so why not someplace where people don't take things
>> too seriously and where you're not under constant stress?
>
> There's "relaxed" and there's "we're a bunch of juvanile twats". Now I
> could be wrong about this, but I'm saying when I was there the vibe
> didn't feel very good, that's all.
Well, I always think an instinct should be at least considered - and I
don't know the company in question, and it may well be that they're a
bunch of kids with no idea. Or it could just be that they're very
relaxed and comfortable around themselves and are very professional when
dealing with clients. I've seen people like that as well.
>>>> Think of it as gained confidence.
>>> It turns out there's a fine line between confidence and stupidity.
>>
>> Maybe you're not trying to be funny, but that is funny. ;-) The usual
>> way that is said is "bravery and stupidity". But ultimately, so what?
>> Again, you had the guts to do something I've never done and even today
>> never would do (OK, part of that is because I'm happily married <g>).
>
> Heh. Even Marcus, the womanizing wonder said he'd never do that.
>
> ...so yeah, more stupid than brave. :-/
You've got to stop running yourself down. Seriously. Think better of
yourself.
>>> Well, nice to know somebody alive actually likes me...
>>
>> I think you'll find that I'm not the only one.
>
> An alternative hypothesis might be that the few other people who like me
> are just kinda quiet about it.
A lot of people don't know how to express that. Like me talking about
your music - they think it sounds fake. Doesn't mean they don't like you.
Jim
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>>> Maybe it's time to search again. Available jobs isn't a static list.
>>>> :-)
>>> No, but the number and type of jobs on offer is.
>>
>> That's where you're WRONG! The number and type of jobs on offer changes
>> as positions are filled and opened.
>
> Well, I think you'll find the number of vacancies for (say) accountants
> vastly outnumbers positions for computer programmers. I doubt it varies
> significantly year upon year.
How many accountants does a single company need? And how many programmers?
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> How many accountants does a single company need?
>=1
> And how many programmers?
0
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Warp wrote:
> Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>> I suggested to her that maybe we could meet up today. Her response was
>> that she's trying to "sort things out" with her boyfriend so it's
>> "probably not a good idea".
>
> That sounds like girl code language for something else...
...and yet, every now and then, she does in fact text me. Not very
often, but just occasionally. Weird...
(Today she claims she's moving house. Go figure.)
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> (Today she claims she's moving house. Go figure.)
Hint: The answer is "do you need help carrying stuff around?"
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
There's no CD like OCD, there's no CD I knoooow!
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Darren New wrote:
> Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> (Today she claims she's moving house. Go figure.)
>
> Hint: The answer is "do you need help carrying stuff around?"
LOL! I don't think that's gonna work. ;-) Worth a giggle perhaps tho...
It's really weird how we ping text messages back and forth, and then
suddenly she just stops replying. And then, like, a week later she
starts chatting to me like nothing happened. WTF? Time skips??
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Invisible wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> (Today she claims she's moving house. Go figure.)
>>
>> Hint: The answer is "do you need help carrying stuff around?"
>
> LOL! I don't think that's gonna work. ;-) Worth a giggle perhaps tho...
Why? Is she too far away or something?
> It's really weird how we ping text messages back and forth, and then
> suddenly she just stops replying. And then, like, a week later she
> starts chatting to me like nothing happened. WTF? Time skips??
Just something comes up, and the need to keep texting becomes a lower priority.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
There's no CD like OCD, there's no CD I knoooow!
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