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>>> Eh? No! You don't have to dig into source code for Emacs to
>>> customize it. It comes with a Lisp interpreter for a reason!
>>
>> You do if you want to make it do something there isn't a setting for.
>
> Like a new garbage collector? Pretty much only the core elisp
> interpreter and basic IO routines are in C, the rest of emacs is elisp.
I doubt anybody ever needs to dig into the C code. But if you want a new
Emacs feature that there isn't a setting for, you're going to need to
dig through a few hundred miles of Lisp to figure out how and where to
add it. That's what I'm trying to say.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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>>> Control-u 10 Control-f
>>
>> So, hold control, tap U, release control, tap 1 and then 0, hold
>> control, tap F, and then release control?
>
> You sound like you never used keyboard shortcuts before.
I don't use them extensively, but some of them are seriously useful to
know. (And almost all of them are things like Ctrl+S, which is two
fingers. I haven't seen these multiple-key "shortcuts" before...)
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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>> whoa! You're... an experienced man. :)
>
>
> I'll sell you some :)
...experience? Hot wax??
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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nemesis wrote:
> Anti-aliasing means blur. No AA means crisp. ;)
OMG, you can *not* say things like that, in the POV-Ray forums of all
places! :-P
As you [I hope] know, AA means adding _extra information_ to the image.
It is not merely a bluring step (which _removes_ information).
>>>> I mean, if you're forced to use a console window to do something, then
>>>> fair enough. But this is 2009. We have graphics systems capable of
>>>> better. Why not make use of that fact?
>
> XEmacs took that route of embracing GUIs and their lifestyle. It means
> there's tons of buttons and tons of menus inside menus without end. GUIs
> work when you have limited software like notepad. When you have tons of
> features like Emacs and IDEs, all those buttons begin to get in the
> way. Ever looked into Eclipse?
>> No sensible person programs with a word processor. It's the wrong tool.
>
> Yet I've seen coworkers typing SQL in Word. Yes, it's insane and
> depressing.
I've done that before - but not to *execute* it, you understand, but
because I was writing documentation. For that, a word processor is the
correct tool. (And Word constantly complains about things that are spelt
wrong and tries to "correct" letter case, etc.)
>> But there are studies that show that black-on-white is easier to read
>> than white-on-black, and I'd prefer to be able to change it.
>
> I enjoy cyan-on-black more. :)
Each to their own. ;-)
> Small baby steps on the manual over a few months can do wonders. Over
> the years and you get a new Emacs guru. :)
I get the feeling it might take years to make Emacs work just the way
you want it to.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Tim Attwood escreveu:
>>> emacs is a religion. Notepad isn't.
> I've been using Notepad++ lately, it seems OK.
> It has context highlighting for a bunch of languages.
> http://notepad-plus.sourceforge.net/uk/site.htm
>
> Didn't mice and pull-down menus make Emacs obsolete?
Right. Here's a challenge for you, copy the query below with your mouse
and paste it below. Then compare with the ease of doing the same with
y}}p on vim.
y} copies (yanks) the following block of text, doesn't matter the size.
} goes one block of text below, then p pastes the copy just after the
cursor. No, I don't remember how exactly to do it on emacs, but hardly
different that much and just as easy.
True, mouse ease of use ends when advanced usage begins. :)
BTW, if I want to go back to where I was before the copying, I just do
Ctrl+o to pop up one position from the jump stack. What do you do?
scroll back like crazy??! mwahahahaha....
SELECT
a.seq_aposentadoria,
a.cod_matricula,
a.dt_vigencia,
a.dt_fim_apo,
a.ind_motivo_fim_apo,
d1.desc_estado desc_motivo_fim_apo,
a.num_processo,
a.ind_tipo_desconto_pss,
d2.desc_estado desc_tipo_desconto_pss,
a.dt_inspecao_medica,
a.desc_observacao,
a.dt_lancamento,
-- Cargo Comissionado
acc.seq_cargo_comissionado_apo,
acc.seq_cod_cargo seq_cod_cargo_comissionado,
acc.cod_categoria cod_categoria_comissionado,
acc.dt_nomeacao dt_nomeacao_comissionado,
acc.seq_func_averbada,
acc.dt_vigencia dt_vigencia_comissionado,
acc.ind_opcao_apos ind_opcao_apos,
d3.desc_estado desc_opcao_apos,
-- cargo efetivo
ace.seq_cargo_efetivo_apo,
ace.seq_cod_cargo seq_cod_cargo_efetivo,
ace.cod_categoria cod_categoria_efetivo,
ace.dt_nomeacao dt_nomeacao_efetivo,
ace.dt_vigencia dt_vigencia_efetivo,
-- imposto de renda
air.seq_imposto_renda_apo,
air.ind_paga_ir,
d4.desc_estado desc_paga_ir,
air.dt_vigencia dt_vigencia_ir,
-- tipo
atp.seq_tipo_apo,
atp.ind_tipo_apo,
d5.desc_estado desc_tipo_apo,
atp.dt_vigencia dt_vigencia_tipo,
-- situacao
ast.seq_situacao_apo,
ast.ind_situacao_apo,
d6.desc_estado desc_situacao_apo,
ast.dt_julgamento_tcu,
ast.dt_vigencia dt_vigencia_situacao,
-- paridade
ap.seq_paridade_apo,
ap.ind_tipo_paridade_apo,
d7.desc_estado desc_tipo_paridade_apo,
ap.dt_vigencia dt_vigencia_paridade,
-- proporcao
app.seq_proporcao_apo,
app.num_fracao_numerador,
app.num_fracao_denominador,
app.ind_tipo_pagamento_apo,
d8.desc_estado desc_tipo_pagamento_apo,
app.dt_vigencia dt_vigencia_proporcao,
-- valor aposentadoria
av.seq_valor_apo,
--av.seq_indice_reajuste,
av.vlr_aposentadoria,
av.desc_observacao desc_observacao_valor,
av.dt_vigencia dt_vigencia_valor,
-- dobro limite
ad.seq_dobro_limite_rgps_apo,
ad.dt_inicio_vigencia,
ad.dt_fim_vigencia
FROM dbo.aposentadoria a LEFT OUTER JOIN dbo.dominio d1
ON (d1.nome_coluna = 'ind_motivo_fim_apo'
AND d1.desc_codigo = a.ind_motivo_fim_apo) LEFT OUTER JOIN
dbo.dominio d2
ON (d2.nome_coluna = 'ind_tipo_desconto_pss'
AND d2.desc_codigo = a.ind_tipo_desconto_pss) LEFT OUTER JOIN
dbo.apo_cargo_comissionado acc
ON (acc.seq_aposentadoria = a.seq_aposentadoria
AND acc.dt_vigencia = (SELECT MAX(t.dt_vigencia)
FROM dbo.apo_cargo_comissionado t
WHERE t.seq_aposentadoria = a.seq_aposentadoria
AND t.dt_vigencia BETWEEN @dt_ini AND @dt_fim)) LEFT OUTER
JOIN dbo.dominio d3
ON (d3.nome_coluna = 'ind_opcao_apos'
AND d3.desc_codigo = acc.ind_opcao_apos) LEFT OUTER JOIN
dbo.apo_cargo_efetivo ace
ON ( ace.seq_aposentadoria = a.seq_aposentadoria
AND ace.dt_vigencia = (SELECT MAX(t.dt_vigencia)
FROM dbo.apo_cargo_efetivo t
WHERE t.seq_aposentadoria = a.seq_aposentadoria
AND t.dt_vigencia BETWEEN @dt_ini AND @dt_fim)) INNER JOIN
dbo.apo_imposto_renda air
ON (air.seq_aposentadoria = a.seq_aposentadoria
AND air.dt_vigencia = (SELECT MAX( t.dt_vigencia )
FROM dbo.apo_imposto_renda t
WHERE t.seq_aposentadoria = a.seq_aposentadoria
AND t.dt_vigencia BETWEEN @dt_ini AND @dt_fim)) INNER JOIN
dbo.dominio d4
ON (d4.nome_coluna = 'ind_paga_ir'
AND d4.desc_codigo = air.ind_paga_ir) INNER JOIN dbo.apo_tipo atp
ON (atp.seq_aposentadoria = a.seq_aposentadoria
AND atp.dt_vigencia = (SELECT MAX(t.dt_vigencia)
FROM dbo.apo_tipo t
WHERE t.seq_aposentadoria = a.seq_aposentadoria
AND t.dt_vigencia BETWEEN @dt_ini AND @dt_fim)) INNER JOIN
dbo.dominio d5
ON (d5.nome_coluna = 'ind_tipo_apo'
AND d5.desc_codigo = atp.ind_tipo_apo) INNER JOIN dbo.apo_situacao ast
ON (ast.seq_aposentadoria = a.seq_aposentadoria
AND ast.dt_vigencia = (SELECT MAX(t.dt_vigencia)
FROM dbo.apo_situacao t
WHERE t.seq_aposentadoria = a.seq_aposentadoria
AND t.dt_vigencia BETWEEN @dt_ini AND @dt_fim)) INNER JOIN
dbo.dominio d6
ON (d6.nome_coluna = 'ind_situacao_apo'
AND d6.desc_codigo = ast.ind_situacao_apo) INNER JOIN
dbo.apo_paridade ap
ON (ap.seq_aposentadoria = a.seq_aposentadoria
AND ap.dt_vigencia = (SELECT MAX(t.dt_vigencia)
FROM dbo.apo_paridade t
WHERE t.seq_aposentadoria = a.seq_aposentadoria
AND t.dt_vigencia BETWEEN @dt_ini AND @dt_fim)) LEFT OUTER
JOIN dbo.dominio d7
ON (d7.nome_coluna = 'ind_tipo_paridade_apo'
AND d7.desc_codigo = ap.ind_tipo_paridade_apo) INNER JOIN
dbo.apo_proporcao app
ON (app.seq_aposentadoria = a.seq_aposentadoria
AND app.dt_vigencia = (SELECT MAX(t.dt_vigencia)
FROM dbo.apo_proporcao t
WHERE t.seq_aposentadoria = a.seq_aposentadoria
AND t.dt_vigencia BETWEEN @dt_ini AND @dt_fim)) INNER JOIN
dbo.dominio d8
ON (d8.nome_coluna = 'ind_tipo_pagamento_apo'
AND d8.desc_codigo = app.ind_tipo_pagamento_apo) LEFT JOIN
dbo.apo_valor av
ON (av.seq_paridade_apo = ap.seq_paridade_apo
AND av.dt_vigencia = (SELECT MAX(t.dt_vigencia)
FROM dbo.apo_valor t
WHERE t.seq_paridade_apo = ap.seq_paridade_apo
AND t.dt_vigencia BETWEEN @dt_ini AND @dt_fim)) LEFT JOIN
dbo.apo_dobro_limite_rgps ad
ON (ad.seq_aposentadoria = a.seq_aposentadoria
AND ad.dt_inicio_vigencia = (SELECT MAX(t.dt_inicio_vigencia)
FROM dbo.apo_dobro_limite_rgps t
WHERE t.seq_aposentadoria =
a.seq_aposentadoria
AND t.dt_inicio_vigencia BETWEEN @dt_ini AND @dt_fim))
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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Orchid XP v8 escreveu:
>>>> Eh? No! You don't have to dig into source code for Emacs to
>>>> customize it. It comes with a Lisp interpreter for a reason!
>>>
>>> You do if you want to make it do something there isn't a setting for.
>>
>> Like a new garbage collector? Pretty much only the core elisp
>> interpreter and basic IO routines are in C, the rest of emacs is elisp.
>
> I doubt anybody ever needs to dig into the C code. But if you want a new
> Emacs feature that there isn't a setting for, you're going to need to
> dig through a few hundred miles of Lisp to figure out how and where to
> add it. That's what I'm trying to say.
>
Not that difficult: you start by analyzing a function and asks help for
that function. As you dig in the code you see it calling other
functions and again you ask help for those functions that may interest
you and so on. Small baby steps. Digging the whole emacs manual at
once is insane. You search for particular features and goes from there.
Reminded me of a joke:
How do you take elephant soup? One spoon after the other... :)
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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Orchid XP v8 escreveu:
> nemesis wrote:
>
>> I don't think Andrew bothers with that stuff. He's just having some
>> bashing fun and when it's over he'll turn back to his underpowered
>> editor and lose hours upon hours of his life doing something by hand
>> that exist as a few key presses in either emacs or vim. Of course
>> losing 30 minutes of his life to actually learn the precious basics of
>> a powerful editor is not worth it.
>
> One could make similar sarcastic remarks about the population at large
> refusing to learn Haskell even though it is clearly and obviously the
> most powerful programming language ever devised. Not that such remarks
> are going to change anybody's minds...
Yes, but it clearly changed yours, didn't it? ;)
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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Tor Olav Kristensen <tor### [at] TOBEREMOVEDgmail com> wrote:
> If you do the following keystrokes:
>
> C-home // beginning-of-buffer
> down // next-line
> C-k // kill-line
> C-y // yank
> down // next-line
> C-x ( // start-kbd-macro
> down // next-line
> C-e // move-end-of-line
> C-y // yank
> C-x ) // kmacro-end-macro
> C-u // universal-argument
> 9 // 9
> C-x e // kmacro-end-and-call-macro
Yes, yes, I know that no one cares about vim...
:2y
:4,$s/$/^R"^H/
but I'm having fun with this.
- Ricky
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On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:17:22 +0100, Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> I haven't seen these multiple-key "shortcuts" before...)
Ctrl + Alt + Del ?
--
Regards
Stephen
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On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:17:58 +0100, Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>>> whoa! You're... an experienced man. :)
>>
>>
>> I'll sell you some :)
>
>...experience? Hot wax??
Don't knock it 'till you've tried it ;-)
--
Regards
Stephen
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Stephen wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:17:22 +0100, Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>
>> I haven't seen these multiple-key "shortcuts" before...)
>
> Ctrl + Alt + Del ?
Yes. You press them all at once.
The only place I've seen where a single "shotcut" involves pressing and
releasing multiple keys in a sequence is those magic ALT-code that are
supposed to insert special characters but never actually work right.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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>>>> whoa! You're... an experienced man. :)
>>>
>>> I'll sell you some :)
>> ...experience? Hot wax??
>
> Don't knock it 'till you've tried it ;-)
Which?
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 19:48:25 +0100, Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>Stephen wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:17:22 +0100, Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>>
>>> I haven't seen these multiple-key "shortcuts" before...)
>>
>> Ctrl + Alt + Del ?
>
>Yes. You press them all at once.
>
>The only place I've seen where a single "shotcut" involves pressing and
>releasing multiple keys in a sequence is those magic ALT-code that are
>supposed to insert special characters but never actually work right.
In Windows (Praise be its Name!) If you press Alt + {a first letter of a menu
word (or the underlined letter)}, release then the underlined letter of the
command you want. You have your actual multi digit shortcuts.
--
Regards
Stephen
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On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 19:48:44 +0100, Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>>>>> whoa! You're... an experienced man. :)
>>>>
>>>> I'll sell you some :)
>>> ...experience? Hot wax??
>>
>> Don't knock it 'till you've tried it ;-)
>
>Which?
Hot wax, you couldn't possibly mean programming, could you?
--
Regards
Stephen
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Stephen escreveu:
> On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 19:48:25 +0100, Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>
>> Stephen wrote:
>>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:17:22 +0100, Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I haven't seen these multiple-key "shortcuts" before...)
>>> Ctrl + Alt + Del ?
>> Yes. You press them all at once.
>>
>> The only place I've seen where a single "shotcut" involves pressing and
>> releasing multiple keys in a sequence is those magic ALT-code that are
>> supposed to insert special characters but never actually work right.
>
> In Windows (Praise be its Name!) If you press Alt + {a first letter of a menu
> word (or the underlined letter)}, release then the underlined letter of the
> command you want. You have your actual multi digit shortcuts.
Yes, I used a lot in Photoshop! While my coworkers were manually
bringing down the menus, then selecting with the mouse submenus then
selecting the desired menu item, I had already used the feature. :)
Keyboard shortcuts are a blessing. Here's what Master Foo has to say
about GUIs:
http://catb.org/~esr/writings/unix-koans/gui-programmer.html
:)
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:24:36 -0300, nemesis <nam### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>Yes, I used a lot in Photoshop! While my coworkers were manually
>bringing down the menus, then selecting with the mouse submenus then
>selecting the desired menu item, I had already used the feature. :)
>
It drives me mad at work watching other people using a mouse. I have to
physically restrain myself from taking over the driving the machine.
I have had to learn how to use the context sensitive menu because when I am
demonstrating things it is impossible to follow what is going on using
shortcuts.
>Keyboard shortcuts are a blessing. Here's what Master Foo has to say
>about GUIs:
>
>http://catb.org/~esr/writings/unix-koans/gui-programmer.html
>
>:)
Oh snail, climb Mt. Fuji, but slowly, slowly ...
--
Regards
Stephen
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Invisible wrote:
> It just seems to me that now almost everything Emacs does can also
> be done by half a dozen other tools - most of which don't require
> you to memorise long sequences of keyboard acrobatics to do
> things. So while I get that Emacs seemed amazing 30 years ago, why
> do people still use it today?
Don't know Emacs, but I'll try to give an answer for Vim which may
be relevant. I have tried Scite, but don't remember much about it.
Scite may be able to do more than I think it can.
1. Macros and functions
2. I have become fond of a portion of the many small moving/editing
tools which (in may case) work more quickly that selecting text w/ a
mouse or moving with the scroll bar.
Some of my favorites:
zz Center cursor line on page
cw erase a word
C-a increase next number by 1
n C-x decrease next number by n
% move to the cursor to the matching bracket or parentheses
C-d like pagedown, but only half a page
gg beginning of a file
* next occurrence of word under cursor
gq rearranges text to fit in variable "textwidth" columns
(used to format the quote in this message)
(I don't like broken lines in quoted text)
:n go to line-number n
-Shay
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scott escreveu:
>>> Really, I wish MS would ban software that doesn't at least use the
>>> standard font, menus, toolbars, dialogs etc.
>>
>> Emacs and vi were around long before Microsoft began selling DOS.
>> Their standards are as valid in their context as Microsoft's in their
>> products.
>
> Sure, but if you write or port a program to run under windows it should
> follow at least some basic style guidelines. IIRC they are on the MS
> website somewhere under their "logo program". It makes life easier for
> everyone using that OS, rather than ending up with a mish-mash of
> programs all doing everything their own way.
It's free software so no one can impede some nut of porting it to
platforms other than Unix. It's their trouble if they want to suit
their new audience to their tastes, though.
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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nemesis wrote:
> Tim Attwood escreveu:
>>>> emacs is a religion. Notepad isn't.
>> I've been using Notepad++ lately, it seems OK.
>> It has context highlighting for a bunch of languages.
>> http://notepad-plus.sourceforge.net/uk/site.htm
>>
>> Didn't mice and pull-down menus make Emacs obsolete?
>
> Right. Here's a challenge for you, copy the query below with your mouse
> and paste it below. Then compare with the ease of doing the same with
> y}}p on vim.
>
> y} copies (yanks) the following block of text, doesn't matter the size.
> } goes one block of text below, then p pastes the copy just after the
> cursor. No, I don't remember how exactly to do it on emacs, but hardly
> different that much and just as easy.
Heres one way to do same with Emacs:
M-h // mark-paragraph
C-w // kill-region
C-y // yank
C-y // yank
Another way is:
C-space // set-mark-command
M-} // forward-paragraph
C-w // kill-region
C-y // yank
C-y // yank
If you are in the middle of a paragraph, these two will give different
results. The first one will copy the whole paragraph, while the last
one will only copy from the cursor to the end of the paragraph.
--
Tor Olav
http://subcube.com
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Invisible wrote:
> So while I get that Emacs seemed amazing 30 years ago, why do
> people still use it today?
It also occurs to me that while you are talking about older software,
you are presenting typical luddite arguments.
Why do I need x, y, and z feature when Win3.0, KDE1, or whatever did
whatever I need?
Once I got used to the "feature creep" stuff, I found it hard to go
back. What do you mean alt-tab cycles through the window list instead of
going back to my last focused window? What do you mean I can't drag and
drop from my folder onto my desktop? What do you mean media doesn't
mount automatically?
-Shay
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Shay <n@n.n> wrote:
> 1. Macros and functions
>
> 2. I have become fond of a portion of the many small moving/editing
> tools which (in may case) work more quickly that selecting text w/ a
> mouse or moving with the scroll bar.
> Some of my favorites:
3. Log into random machines/servers and your favorite editor is already there,
no configuration necessary.
- Ricky
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triple_r wrote:
> Yes, yes, I know that no one cares about vim...
>
> :2y
> :4,$s/$/^R"^H/
>
> but I'm having fun with this.
OK. Who let the vi guy in the Emacs thread?
--
Lisa: Oedipus killed his father and married his mother.
Homer: Who payed for THAT wedding?
/\ /\ /\ /
/ \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z
>>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
anl
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scott wrote:
> Anyway, Windows is not Unix, if you port a program from another platform
> to Windows you should at least have to use the standard Windows GUI
> controls and keyboard shortcuts. One thing that is good about *most*
> Windows apps is that they all work the same way, Ctrl-C is copy, Ctrl-S
> is save, they all use the same Windows dialog boxes, that makes it
> *easy* to learn and use. Programs that deliberately don't conform to
> these standards are just shooting themselves in the foot because users
> won't like them.
Good. Now what exactly should be the standard Microsoft shortcuts for
the following features:
- go to the start of sentence
- go to the end of sentence
- go to the start of paragraph
- go to the end of paragraph
- select following sentence
- select previous sentence
- select following paragraph
- select previous paragraph
- go down into nested scope
- go up from nested scope
- go down into nested scope
...
Yeah, things quickly get out of control when there's so much friggin'
useful functionality and so few standard shortcuts...
> Look at how many people complain about the UI of Blender and what a
> steep learning curve it has. Do you think it would be as bad if the
> Windows version actually looked and behaved like a proper Windows
> application?
Funny. It's an OpenGL application with a single OpenGL custom
cross-platform graphical interface. Reminds you of anything? Yeah,
that's right! Most games also use custom interfaces on Windows. Yet,
somehow, I don't hear complains about lack of standardized BS.
> Pressing Space to get the context menu and right button to
> select, using some file open/save mechanism from the DOS ages, using
> Ctrl-W to save, WTF is that about? - it's a horrendous application
> running on Windows in terms of the UI.
Why should it use DOS mechanisms when it predates DOS?
The fact is that Blender and Emacs are platforms in themselves. This is
good because it right away requires the user to learn it and think in
the software own terms rather than try to pathetically use it as just
another underpowered notepad, eternally relying on copy-paste and Ctrl+S
-- the assembly of text editing -- without knowing any better.
Or the user can simply sigh, turn behind and continue using his lowly
tools. I don't think emacs has much to gain anyway from people which
are just fine in notepad derivatives.
> with no documentation. A text editor however, you expect to be able to
> type stuff, copy & paste, load save etc without having to read any
> documentation because there are OS standardised ways for that stuff for
> a reason.
Sure, you should know that when you enter the emacs OS. ;)
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Mueen Nawaz wrote:
> You can use rectangular editing to add space for that column. Then just
> change from insert mode to overwrite and add in the numbers.
> Alternatively, in a separate buffer, type in that column. Then use
> rectangular editing to copy that rectangle, and yank it into the text
> that you want.
Actually, was just reading today. Apparently (and I haven't tried
this), you can _limit_ editing to a rectangular selection (it'll act
like a buffer). So you insert a rectangle of blank space. And then
restrict editing to within that rectangle, and it's slightly easier.
--
Lisa: Oedipus killed his father and married his mother.
Homer: Who payed for THAT wedding?
/\ /\ /\ /
/ \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z
>>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
anl
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nemesis wrote:
> mputer keyboards. Emacs is from that era and
> despite evolving through the years, still uses ancient terminology, like
> buffers instead of tabs.
That's a bit harsh. Frankly, the use of tabs in the sense that you mean
in actual _editors_ is quite recent in Windows (at least in my
experience). People used tabs when going through an Options
Configuration window for various software.
In most programs, having stuff in separate "buffers" was still referred
to as having them in separate "windows" (not physically, but virtually).
To switch, you'd go to the Windows menu, and select the one you wanted.
--
Lisa: Oedipus killed his father and married his mother.
Homer: Who payed for THAT wedding?
/\ /\ /\ /
/ \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z
>>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
anl
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>>> Eh? No! You don't have to dig into source code for Emacs to
>>>> customize it. It comes with a Lisp interpreter for a reason!
>>>
>>> You do if you want to make it do something there isn't a setting for.
>>
>> Like a new garbage collector? Pretty much only the core elisp
>> interpreter and basic IO routines are in C, the rest of emacs is elisp.
>
> I doubt anybody ever needs to dig into the C code. But if you want a new
> Emacs feature that there isn't a setting for, you're going to need to
> dig through a few hundred miles of Lisp to figure out how and where to
> add it. That's what I'm trying to say.
And I'm not sure I agree. Again, it's not a simple task of assigning a
setting. You can customize by writing your own commands. While writing
your own commands, you make use of the ones Emacs provides (a _big_ list).
Take your example of inserting a new column in a lot of text with some
predefined quantity. Should be straightforward to write your own
function for.
Now if you want to write some syntax highlighting, code cleaning for an
obscure language that Emacs does not have a mode for (not at all
unlikely), then that can take quite a bit of coding (and you'd be best
off by looking at the source code of how Emacs handles a fairly simple
language). I bet it's still significantly less than you'd do if fiddling
with the SciTE source code.
If you meant to say that "one has to learn a lot before he can make
significant changes", then I'd agree. If you simply want custom
functions that do simple tasks (like the column one, etc), then I'd
disagree.
Emacs is not an editor you just pick up and become an expert in. That
can take years. The idea is that you use it as a normal editor, and
slowly learn new things as little needs arise. Hopefully the rest will
come naturally.
--
Lisa: Oedipus killed his father and married his mother.
Homer: Who payed for THAT wedding?
/\ /\ /\ /
/ \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z
>>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
anl
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Stephen wrote:
> I think that we have had "cut and paste" since at least the 1940's as it was a
> printing term used in Phototypesetting. You would literally cut the text off a
> page then paste it onto another page. I remember using hot wax for the pasting
> in the 70's.
True, but my point (somewhere in this thread) was that in the 70's it
may not have been common parlance in _computers._
--
Lisa: Oedipus killed his father and married his mother.
Homer: Who payed for THAT wedding?
/\ /\ /\ /
/ \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z
>>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
anl
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Mike Raiford wrote:
> I don't doubt that Emacs is incredibly powerful... But, it's not always
> the appropriate tool.
Well, I don't browse the web with it either.<G>
--
Lisa: Oedipus killed his father and married his mother.
Homer: Who payed for THAT wedding?
/\ /\ /\ /
/ \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z
>>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
anl
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> One could make similar sarcastic remarks about the population at large
> refusing to learn Haskell even though it is clearly and obviously the
> most powerful programming language ever devised.
Well, so long as you don't need any decent execution speed :-)
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> Good. Now what exactly should be the standard Microsoft shortcuts for the
> following features:
> - go to the start of sentence
> - go to the end of sentence
There aren't any because features like that are not common across
applications. Things like open, save, undo, close, copy, paste etc are very
common in all applications whether they are text editors, spreadsheets,
paint programs, 3D modellers, etc, so the keyboard short cuts are specified
in the MS style guides and you should follow them.
> Yeah, things quickly get out of control when there's so much friggin'
> useful functionality and so few standard shortcuts...
Why? If there isn't a standard for your particular command then you are free
to use something else (unless it is a reserved shortcut like Ctrl-S, but
assuming your app has save functionality this will be already used).
> Funny. It's an OpenGL application with a single OpenGL custom
> cross-platform graphical interface. Reminds you of anything?
Yeh, the nightmare of trying to use Unix apps at University where things
like Delete and Backspace did different things in different apps! I wonder
how many people use Blender on both Linux and Windows regularly, compared to
those that only use it on Windows?
>> Pressing Space to get the context menu and right button to select, using
>> some file open/save mechanism from the DOS ages, using Ctrl-W to save,
>> WTF is that about? - it's a horrendous application running on Windows in
>> terms of the UI.
>
> Why should it use DOS mechanisms when it predates DOS?
Dunno, it's beyond me why they use some crappy text based folder navigator
that takes 20 years to get to "My Documents", Windows has a standard open
file dialog that is orders of magnitudes better (it includes shortcuts to
common and recent folders, plus does the folder order the correct way ie
starting with Desktop and not a list of drives), why on Earth don't they use
that? It's like 2 lines of code to call it - just completely idiotic not to
use it.
> The fact is that Blender and Emacs are platforms in themselves. This is
> good because it right away requires the user to learn it and think in the
> software own terms rather than try to pathetically use it as just another
> underpowered notepad, eternally relying on copy-paste and Ctrl+S -- the
> assembly of text editing -- without knowing any better.
But if every app decided they were "platforms in themselves" you end up
never remembering how to use any program. Really what is the disadvantage
with Ctrl-S being save instead of Ctrl-W in Blender, apart from the fact
that "it's always been like that"? At least give the option to switch
between Standard Windows interface and traditional Blender.
> Or the user can simply sigh, turn behind and continue using his lowly
> tools.
Umm, I take it you've never used any commercial 3D software designed for
Windows? The first port of Pro/Engineer (commercial 3D CAD software) to
Windows was just like Blender is today, everyone complained and hated it
apart from a few die-hard supporters. Today Pro/E looks and acts like a
proper Windows application, getting far more approval and take-up from the
industry than the earlier versions that were widely criticised.
I guess the difference is that the Blender developers have no incentive to
sell more copies. If it was a commercial operation someone with
half-a-brain would demand that a default option for standard Windows
behaviour and dialogs be added, otherwise nobody is going to take it
seriously apart from the die-hard supporters.
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scott wrote:
>> One could make similar sarcastic remarks about the population at large
>> refusing to learn Haskell even though it is clearly and obviously the
>> most powerful programming language ever devised.
>
> Well, so long as you don't need any decent execution speed :-)
Are speeds in the range of 2-5x slower than C/C++ acceptable? I
thinking it's as good a trade off as was going from assembly to C
several decades ago. Specially as seeing as whole lucrative businesses
have been built around scripting languages that are about 100 to 1000
times slower than C/C++.
Haskell GHC compiler is one of the top in the computer shootout game:
http://tinyurl.com/cg5v2j
It's currently faster even than OCaml, Ada and Java -server.
Also, g++ loses to Free Pascal when taking memory usage into
consideration. :)
though it's certainly strange seeing LuaJit *before* java -server and
python and ruby not much behind... OTOH, I peeked a few C++ codes and it
looked downright assembly.
Ah, nothing more fake than programming in assembly disguised in your fav
programming language... :P
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>> Anti-aliasing means blur. No AA means crisp. ;)
>
> OMG, you can *not* say things like that, in the POV-Ray forums of all
> places! :-P
>
> As you [I hope] know, AA means adding _extra information_ to the image. It
> is not merely a bluring step (which _removes_ information).
Especially using something like MS ClearType, which actually uses the known
RGB sub-pixel structure of LCDs to get extra resolution when rendering text.
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> Are speeds in the range of 2-5x slower than C/C++ acceptable?
For most of the stuff I write, no.
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>> One could make similar sarcastic remarks about the population at large
>> refusing to learn Haskell even though it is clearly and obviously the
>> most powerful programming language ever devised.
>
> Well, so long as you don't need any decent execution speed :-)
You can have decent execution speed, it just takes work. Same as any
other language.
Premature optimisation is the root of all evil. Make the program _work
properly_ first, optimise it after that if it's actually too slow.
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Mueen Nawaz wrote:
> OK. Who let the vi guy in the Emacs thread?
LOL! Well, of course Vi is the other editor that people claim is
all-powerful...
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On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 23:20:37 -0500, Mueen Nawaz <m.n### [at] ieeeorg> wrote:
> True, but my point (somewhere in this thread) was that in the 70's it
>may not have been common parlance in _computers._
>
I doubt that it was in common usage then. It is just over 10 years ago that I
heard someone mention a C: drive, in the street. Other than that it was only at
work did I hear geek talk. :)
>--
>Lisa: Oedipus killed his father and married his mother.
Typical royal family, actually ;)
--
Regards
Stephen
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nemesis <nam### [at] nospam-gmailcom> wrote:
> Ah, nothing more fake than programming in assembly disguised in your fav
> programming language... :P
OTOH haskell, at least when using ghc, is nothing more than a wrapper
around C, so when you write a haskell program you are *really* writing
a C program, just with some fancy features.
Nothing more fake than claiming a language is about as fast as C, when
in fact it's *compiled as C*, in the first place.
--
- Warp
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Btw, another difference between emacs and notepad (and a lot of other
Windows text editors):
If I need to edit a file remotely through SSH, emacs will do the job
(regardless of which OS I'm using, because emacs will be running on the
remote computer), notepad won't.
--
- Warp
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Warp wrote:
> nemesis <nam### [at] nospam-gmailcom> wrote:
>> Ah, nothing more fake than programming in assembly disguised in your fav
>> programming language... :P
>
> OTOH haskell, at least when using ghc, is nothing more than a wrapper
> around C, so when you write a haskell program you are *really* writing
> a C program, just with some fancy features.
>
> Nothing more fake than claiming a language is about as fast as C, when
> in fact it's *compiled as C*, in the first place.
...so if I use the native code generator instead, does that count as
different then?
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Warp wrote:
> Btw, another difference between emacs and notepad (and a lot of other
> Windows text editors):
>
> If I need to edit a file remotely through SSH, emacs will do the job
> (regardless of which OS I'm using, because emacs will be running on the
> remote computer), notepad won't.
Yes, it does seem that just about every Linux install known includes
Emacs by default. (Although not so many include SSH by default.)
One of the things I always liked about YaST is that it works in console
mode as well as on X Windows.
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Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> ...so if I use the native code generator instead, does that count as
> different then?
At least that's what eg. Java does.
--
- Warp
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Warp escreveu:
> nemesis <nam### [at] nospam-gmailcom> wrote:
>> Ah, nothing more fake than programming in assembly disguised in your fav
>> programming language... :P
>
> OTOH haskell, at least when using ghc, is nothing more than a wrapper
> around C, so when you write a haskell program you are *really* writing
> a C program, just with some fancy features.
>
> Nothing more fake than claiming a language is about as fast as C, when
> in fact it's *compiled as C*, in the first place.
It's not wrappers like PHP and other scripting language do, merely
calling predefined C wrappers for every high level constructs you have:
GHC and others actually generate and reduce those wrappers on-the-fly
from the compiled program. Many Scheme compilers also employ C as backend.
A compiler is merely a program that translates from language A to
language B and there's nothing wrong with using C as the B target. You
leverage from a good performant cross-platform compiler available
everywhere and can focus on how to best translate it to a single
language rather than having to deal with low-level machine specifics.
And you can program in a language with far more convenient and higher
level abstractions.
That said, as Andrew noted, GHC has had a native code generator for a
long while now.
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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scott escreveu:
>> Are speeds in the range of 2-5x slower than C/C++ acceptable?
>
> For most of the stuff I write, no.
For most software programmers not writing device drivers, more than yes. :)
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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scott escreveu:
> wonder how many people use Blender on both Linux and Windows regularly,
> compared to those that only use it on Windows?
Windows is far more used than Linux and thus it is expected that most
Blender users are also Windows users.
>> Why should it use DOS mechanisms when it predates DOS?
>
> Dunno, it's beyond me why they use some crappy text based folder
> navigator that takes 20 years to get to "My Documents", Windows has a
> standard open file dialog that is orders of magnitudes better (it
> includes shortcuts to common and recent folders, plus does the folder
> order the correct way ie starting with Desktop and not a list of
> drives), why on Earth don't they use that? It's like 2 lines of code to
> call it - just completely idiotic not to use it.
"2 lines" of platform-specific C code that will likely require in turn
another hundreds of lines of specific wrappers and type declarations
just to call those "2 lines". dired mode is only suffering for people
who do not take their time to learn how to properly use it.
> But if every app decided they were "platforms in themselves" you end up
> never remembering how to use any program.
I remember vim very well because I carry it along with me everywhere I
go. Better than going to a platform and having to use some crappy tool
than going to another and having to learn to use another crappy tool and
so on. That standard vi way of doing things is a blessing rather than
adapting to the current platform. I mean, I know to use it really well,
what if I came along, opened it and suddenly every shortcut is different
to please the Windows flavor? hell, no!
> Really what is the
> disadvantage with Ctrl-S being save instead of Ctrl-W in Blender, apart
> from the fact that "it's always been like that"?
The disadvantage is that it began that way and people learned it that
way and if they change now people will complain. Legacy software is
always like that.
> At least give the
> option to switch between Standard Windows interface and traditional
> Blender.
I don't think you understand: Blender's UI is all OpenGL. If you want
to contribute code to Windows-specific UI then go ahead, sources are
available.
>> Or the user can simply sigh, turn behind and continue using his lowly
>> tools.
>
> Umm, I take it you've never used any commercial 3D software designed for
> Windows? The first port of Pro/Engineer (commercial 3D CAD software) to
> Windows was just like Blender is today, everyone complained and hated it
> apart from a few die-hard supporters. Today Pro/E looks and acts like a
> proper Windows application, getting far more approval and take-up from
> the industry than the earlier versions that were widely criticised.
Never heard of it. Niche tools can indeed do better by going
platform-specific.
> I guess the difference is that the Blender developers have no incentive
> to sell more copies.
I realize now you didn't comment on my comparation with games and their
specific interfaces.
> If it was a commercial operation someone with
> half-a-brain would demand that a default option for standard Windows
> behaviour and dialogs be added, otherwise nobody is going to take it
> seriously apart from the die-hard supporters.
And lazy people who wish to use it if only it didn't take some learning.
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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scott escreveu:
>>> Anti-aliasing means blur. No AA means crisp. ;)
>>
>> OMG, you can *not* say things like that, in the POV-Ray forums of all
>> places! :-P
>>
>> As you [I hope] know, AA means adding _extra information_ to the
>> image. It is not merely a bluring step (which _removes_ information).
>
> Especially using something like MS ClearType, which actually uses the
> known RGB sub-pixel structure of LCDs to get extra resolution when
> rendering text.
Hey, do you guys know this emoticon? -> ;)
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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Invisible escreveu:
> Mueen Nawaz wrote:
>
>> OK. Who let the vi guy in the Emacs thread?
>
> LOL! Well, of course Vi is the other editor that people claim is
> all-powerful...
Like, yeah, I even posed a vim challenge somewhere at the bottom of this
thread and the guy seemingly backed away ashamed. ;)
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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Invisible escreveu:
> Warp wrote:
>> Btw, another difference between emacs and notepad (and a lot of other
>> Windows text editors):
>>
>> If I need to edit a file remotely through SSH, emacs will do the job
>> (regardless of which OS I'm using, because emacs will be running on the
>> remote computer), notepad won't.
>
> Yes, it does seem that just about every Linux install known includes
> Emacs by default. (Although not so many include SSH by default.)
>
> One of the things I always liked about YaST is that it works in console
> mode as well as on X Windows.
That's actually still only true for vi (not even vim). Ubuntu doesn't
come default with Emacs installed and I guess neither do other
user-geared distros.
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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>> Yes, it does seem that just about every Linux install known includes
>> Emacs by default. (Although not so many include SSH by default.)
>>
>> One of the things I always liked about YaST is that it works in
>> console mode as well as on X Windows.
>
> That's actually still only true for vi (not even vim). Ubuntu doesn't
> come default with Emacs installed and I guess neither do other
> user-geared distros.
Well, I do remember on more than one occasion being stuck with a
console-only system, and being unable to find any editor other than
Emacs [which I can't work].
Maybe it would be worth learning the default controls for Emacs for that
reason alone...
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Orchid XP v8 escreveu:
>> That's actually still only true for vi (not even vim). Ubuntu doesn't
>> come default with Emacs installed and I guess neither do other
>> user-geared distros.
>
> Well, I do remember on more than one occasion being stuck with a
> console-only system, and being unable to find any editor other than
> Emacs [which I can't work].
Probably work by some emacs follower who installed it and unistalled vi,
nano and company. ;)
I think Debian comes with it default.
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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nemesis <nam### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> Ubuntu doesn't
> come default with Emacs installed and I guess neither do other
> user-geared distros.
If I remember correctly, OpenSUSE doesn't install emacs by default
either (unless you select it in the installation options).
Not that it matters, as it's trivial to install afterwards with a
couple of mouse clicks.
--
- Warp
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