Warp wrote:
>   So you are saying that the article at
> http://www.annoyances.org/exec/show/article08-600 is lying when it says
> "without asking your permission"?

Not necessarily. I'm saying *I* got asked permission. The EULA when I 
downloaded SP1 mentioned it. When firefox started up afterwards, it asked me 
if I wanted to install stuff without asking, with a default of "no". Firefox 
always pops up a window when you start it saying what new extensions it has 
installed, so it's not like you can miss it.

Now, maybe between this blog post being posted and my personally getting 
.NET SP1, Microsoft changed the EULA or something.  I wasn't surprised by 
it, nor was it ever in a state where I would randomly install clickonce 
software without being prompted. Maybe it's just because I was paying more 
attention and I knew what the technical terms meant.

Out of curiosity, would you be upset if a windows update upgraded IE or 
Office to work with the latest version of click-once software?

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   My fortune cookie said, "You will soon be
   unable to read this, even at arm's length."

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> Out of curiosity, would you be upset if a windows update upgraded IE or 
> Office to work with the latest version of click-once software?

  No, because I don't use IE nor Office.

  Even if I did, I would be upset if the added feature is a potential
security risk.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Darren New wrote:
> And you're told it's getting installed. People just click past that, because 
> it's checked by default.  It's like complaining you didn't ask for Clippy. 
> Or maybe I'm one of the small number of people who actually read the list of 
> stuff I'm installing before I install it.  Maybe that's why my machine 
> doesn't get the "windows slowness rot" everyone else's seem to.

I don't see how you manage to misunderstand what I said.

I was NOT told it was being installed.

NOT. Do you understand NOT???

I was NOT ASKED and NOT TOLD.

Not on my home workstation, not on my office one.

It's clear you don't believe that and frankly I don't care. What I said is
true whether you choose to believe it or not.

-- Chris

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Warp wrote:
>   So you are saying that the article at
> http://www.annoyances.org/exec/show/article08-600 is lying when it says
> "without asking your permission"?

NB the vast majority of articles I have come across say the same thing
(that it's installed without explicit notification or permission).

It's also been reported if a user purchases a computer with this already
installed (e.g. a brand-new fully-updated Vista system could potentially
have KB951847), and *subsequently* installs firefox, the extension turns up
in FF immediately.

-- Chris

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Chris Cason wrote:
> NB the vast majority of articles I have come across say the same thing
> (that it's installed without explicit notification or permission).

OK. Maybe I'm mis-remembering because Firefox jumped up and down flashing 
the new thing in my face when I started it.

It's not like I didn't give permission to install software on my machine, 
knowing what software is being installed. So I'm not really sure what all 
the complaining is about. It's a plug-in for firefox, which supports a 
plug-in architecture for just such purposes. The plug in that came down was 
bundled with 20+ meg of other changes to your system software as well. It's 
not like it's a root kit or something - before the first time it runs, you 
get FF in your face telling you it has been installed, do you want to 
configure it or disable it? Hardly "stealth."

And if it asked explicit permission, you'd get the same complaints that 
people have about too many UAC prompts - "why are you asking me twice?"

I just don't understand the outrage. "How dare you add a new feature to my 
software?"

Note there are already several 3rd=party plug-ins for firefox making it do 
clickonce. Perhaps none of those worked with the new click-once stuff, so MS 
wants to override the assignment of the mime type to the plug-in that 
actually works, without the user saying "Oh, I don't need that, I already 
have that."

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   My fortune cookie said, "You will soon be
   unable to read this, even at arm's length."

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Chris Cason wrote:
> It's also been reported if a user purchases a computer with this already
> installed (e.g. a brand-new fully-updated Vista system could potentially
> have KB951847), and *subsequently* installs firefox, the extension turns up
> in FF immediately.

Sounds like, then, that they don't actually have to modify firefox at all in 
order to make this functionality work. They're just installing the bundled 
software, and the fact that it affects *firefox* instead of your desktop or 
IE or your start menu or your Office installation is what has people up in arms?

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   My fortune cookie said, "You will soon be
   unable to read this, even at arm's length."

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Darren New wrote:
> not like it's a root kit or something - before the first time it runs, you 
> get FF in your face telling you it has been installed, do you want to 
> configure it or disable it? Hardly "stealth."

I've told you four times now. I was NOT asked or told. You are intentionally
ignoring this.

I will state one last time: I was NOT ASKED OR TOLD. on EITHER of my machines. I
am not the sort of user who clicks past warnings or ignores checkboxes. Network
security is one of my professional gigs.

I use Firefox because of Microsoft's abysmal security record with the internet
as a whole, and IE in particular. I am very choosy about what I permit to be
installed in Firefox and what pissed me off about this incident is that I got no
notification whatsoever that it was installed, and if I had been asked I would
under no circumstances have allowed it.

Given you have chosen to intentionally ignore my prior statements and basically
imply I am either stupid or a lair, I consider you have passed the point of fair
discussion and are simply a troll. As a troll, you are not welcome to continue
posting to this thread; if you wish to troll, go elsewhere.

-- Chris

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Mike Raiford wrote:
> On my machine, too.. What a PITA. Not only is it not removable by a 

Do you ever recall seeing firefox mention that the extension had been installed?
(As I mentioned, I did not).

-- Chris

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Chris Cason wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> not like it's a root kit or something - before the first time it runs, you 
>> get FF in your face telling you it has been installed, do you want to 
>> configure it or disable it? Hardly "stealth."
> 
> I've told you four times now. I was NOT asked or told. You are intentionally
> ignoring this.

I'm not ignoring *your* experience.  I'm telling you that *I* wasn't 
surprised it was installed when I installed it.  What can I say?

I already offered at least three reasons why this might be so that isn't 
calling you a liar.

In any case, did it bring up the "you installed new plug-ins" window when 
you started firefox the next time?  If not, this sounds like a bug in 
firefox as well.

I'm also trying to figure out why this is a problem at all. You install 
software, part of the software is a plug-in for firefox, firefox now has a 
plug-in. When I install software, part of it can be start menu shortcuts, 
system libraries, new menus in my word processor, etc. I just don't see what 
the problem is, really. It's not stealth, it's not something you can't 
disable, it's not apparently breaking anything else. I wouldn't be surprised 
if the exact same SP patched the click-once code that IE uses, but I don't 
see anyone complaining about that. So I'm kind of at a loss there.

I can understand it wasn't mentioned other than "click-once functionality 
improved" in the KB article, but the outrage seems way out of proportion.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   My fortune cookie said, "You will soon be
   unable to read this, even at arm's length."

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Darren New wrote:
> Chris Cason wrote:
>> I've told you four times now. I was NOT asked or told. You are intentionally
>> ignoring this.
> 
> I'm not ignoring *your* experience.  I'm telling you that *I* wasn't 
> surprised it was installed when I installed it.  What can I say?

Here's a direct quote from your post I made that reply to:

Darren New wrote:
> > not like it's a root kit or something - before the first time it runs, you
> > get FF in your face telling you it has been installed, do you want to
> > configure it or disable it? Hardly "stealth."

 "*YOU* get ff in in your face, telling *YOU* it has been installed, do *YOU*
  want to configure it ..."

Hardly "your" experience, and typical of your other replies, where you tend to
directly contradict the poster. Your extensive use of the third party makes it
clear you intend to refer to the OP, not yourself.

You have successfully hijacked this thread from a discussion of the topic to a
"you were told" "not I was'nt" "yes you were". I resent this; I took the time to
make the post because it's a subject I care about and it's descended into a
series of defences of Microsoft's actions primarily by yourself.

-- Chris

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