Does anyone here use blender?

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

Post a reply to this message

Darren New wrote:
> Does anyone here use blender?

My saturday night LOL! :-D :-D

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> My saturday night LOL! :-D :-D

It's not *that* dumb a question. :-)

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

Post a reply to this message

>> My saturday night LOL! :-D :-D
> 
> It's not *that* dumb a question. :-)

Do you know where you are? :-P

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 13:08:53 -0800, Darren New wrote:

> Does anyone here use blender?

Very occasionally, been meaning to look at the latest releases, just 
haven't had the time.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> My saturday night LOL! :-D :-D
>>
>> It's not *that* dumb a question. :-)
> 
> Do you know where you are? :-P

Yes. Does anyone here use Wings3D?   Blender doesn't totally compete with 
POV-Ray.  Blender materials seem kind of lame compared to what you can do 
with POV-Ray, actually.

But anyway, in attempting to put together screen shots, I figured out what 
it was that I've been kicking for like three hours. Nevermind.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 13:36:37 -0800, Darren New wrote:

> Does anyone here use Wings3D?   

I also use this occasionally.

> Blender doesn't totally compete with
> POV-Ray.  Blender materials seem kind of lame compared to what you can
> do with POV-Ray, actually.

I've found that as well, actually.  I wish the materials editor was 
better in Blender.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Darren New wrote:
> But anyway, in attempting to put together screen shots, I figured out 
> what it was that I've been kicking for like three hours. Nevermind.

Blender! The animation package for people who thought C++ was a good idea!

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

Post a reply to this message

Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> Does anyone here use blender?

I've been playing around with Blender for a few months, but what a pain it is
for the Povray mentality that I've developed over the last 15 years. I'm
starting to get used to it though - it's all about the keyboard commands I've
found.

Anyway, I know that Sam Benge is pretty good with it, and he's even said before
that the Blender textures are comparable to Povray's, it's just a different way
of thinking I guess... Sam, you out there?

-Rob

Post a reply to this message

Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> Blender! The animation package for people who thought C++ was a good idea!

Umm, C++ *is* a good idea (unless maybe you're a functional programming geek
like Invisible/Orchid XP)!

And Blender *is* very powerful, just watch one of the cool movies they've made
over the last couple of years if you doubt it:

http://www.blender.org/features-gallery/movies/

I'm starting to think that maybe I'm just not smart enough to use it though,
heh.

-Rob

Post a reply to this message

Darren New wrote:
> Does anyone here use blender?

Yes.  Is that a poll?

Post a reply to this message

Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> Does anyone here use blender?
>

I haven't touched it in a while due to display issues.
I got a new "daytime" laptop with horribly buggy display drivers.  I went and
got some updated ones and I'm no better off. Blender doesn't work properly
without the most advanced video drivers. I've put off trying the customer
support route to fix things until I have a whole day to kill.

Post a reply to this message

nemesis wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> Does anyone here use blender?
> Yes.  Is that a poll?

No. I just spent like 5 hours trying to figure out why something wasn't 
working in spite of something else configured exactly the same was working. 
But in trying to put together a post for the blender forums, I figured out 
which of the 105 things you have to get just right I was getting wrong.

It's a pretty cool program, but anything with a drop-down list picking which 
toolbar you want to work with, followed by toolbars you have to scroll, is 
just *way* too complicated. :-) Maybe if I was a professional, I'd 
appreciate it.

There isn't any way to actually get it to open two OS-level windows on the 
same scene, as in dual-monitor use, is there?

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

Post a reply to this message

Robert McGregor wrote:
> Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>> Blender! The animation package for people who thought C++ was a good idea!
> 
> Umm, C++ *is* a good idea (unless maybe you're a functional programming geek
> like Invisible/Orchid XP)!
> 
> And Blender *is* very powerful, just watch one of the cool movies they've made
> over the last couple of years if you doubt it:
> 
> http://www.blender.org/features-gallery/movies/
> 
> I'm starting to think that maybe I'm just not smart enough to use it though,
> heh.
> 
> -Rob
> 
Nah. You just don't think like.... what ever the hell sort of person 
thought Blender's menus, layout and design make sense. I couldn't even 
manage to follow a tutorial on using it for something, because one step 
in it said to do something with textures, which I got wrong the first 
time I tried, got right the second time, after looking for 20 minutes to 
find it, then got wrong the third time again, because I forgot how the 
hell to get to the "right" settings. lol

-- 
void main () {
   If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models, 
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>

Post a reply to this message

Robert McGregor wrote:
> Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>> Does anyone here use blender?
> 
> Anyway, I know that Sam Benge is pretty good with it,

Who told you this? I certainly didn't say it... I just know how to 
navigate through some of the program. Putting out some good images with 
it is another story... Say, when's the last time you saw something I 
rendered in Blender? :')

> and he's even said before
> that the Blender textures are comparable to Povray's, it's just a different way
> of thinking I guess... Sam, you out there?

Oh no, I do believe I said POV-Ray's texture system was superior in many 
ways to Blender's:
http://news.povray.org/povray.general/thread/%3Cweb.48fdae14f034d1aa519bbb570@news.povray.org%3E/

Each program has its strong points, so it's all a matter of preference. 
  POV-Ray is a much more *fun* environment to experiment in.

Sam

Post a reply to this message

I just started using the program about 3 months ago and have been liking it. 
The learning curve is steep and navigating through the program sometimes 
makes me want to tear my hair out, but I have been able to do some cool 
things with it. I uploaded a few animations to youtube. Here's one and it 
should have links for my other ones next to it (username dig3d)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqmRT87HhtE

Mike


"Darren New" <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote in message 
news:499732e8$1@news.povray.org...
> Does anyone here use blender?
>
> -- 
>   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
>   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
>   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
>   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

Post a reply to this message

Patrick Elliott wrote:
> find it, then got wrong the third time again, because I forgot how the 
> hell to get to the "right" settings. lol

I just spent another 15 minutes looking for the button that says "No, 
looking through a transparent texture shows you what's behind it, not just 
the color of the sky."  Again. :-)  Getting there, tho.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

Post a reply to this message

stbenge wrote:
> Oh no, I do believe I said POV-Ray's texture system was superior in many 
> ways to Blender's:

It certainly seems easier to understand wtf is going on, at least. And more 
consistent.

> Each program has its strong points, so it's all a matter of preference. 
>  POV-Ray is a much more *fun* environment to experiment in.

Yep, altho I expect I'll be playing with the python interface to blender 
soon. I haven't gotten far enough to get trapped, but Blender definitely 
looks like the kind of program where you build something, "apply" your 
changes, start the next part, and realize you need to fix something from 
before when you "applied" stuff, so now you're kinda screwed going thru a 
lot of manual steps again. Unlike POV, where you'd just fix your source and 
run it again.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

Post a reply to this message

Darren New wrote:
> Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> 
>>>> My saturday night LOL! :-D :-D
>>>
>>>
>>> It's not *that* dumb a question. :-)
>>
>>
>> Do you know where you are? :-P
> 
> 
> Yes. Does anyone here use Wings3D?   Blender doesn't totally compete 
> with POV-Ray.  

You're both right.  True POV and Blender are NOT exclusive like the 
Hatfields and the McCoys.  But also true that dual users tend to be more 
about image-making and less about the shear geekiness, software-loyalty 
or otherwise, which seems to define the core of these groups.  I know of 
artists that move between the two technologies, and others, depending on 
the needs of their artwork.  They rarely post here.

Post a reply to this message

Darren New wrote:
> No. I just spent like 5 hours trying to figure out why something wasn't 
> working in spite of something else configured exactly the same was 
> working.

Best way to get into Blender is to slowly learn your way through both 
its 3D space and through its interface, which is organized in panels 
containing related functionality.  All of it via keyboard, of course.

First time I touched blender there were so many buttons around that I 
felt tempted to just push around some of them so I only accomplished 
horribly distorting the default 3D cube beyond all recognition.  Then, I 
decided to first learn how move around in the 3D space, how to 
manipulate objects in the 3D space, how to add and remove objects, how 
to constraint their 3D transforms to axis or planes.  Took about 1 week, 
I guess.

Then I begin learning edit mode, extruding faces etc.  Later, texturing, 
at which point I first began learning why all those panels below 
(texturing is all about F5 and F6).

Trying to hurry things up won't do any good.

> There isn't any way to actually get it to open two OS-level windows on 
> the same scene, as in dual-monitor use, is there?

I don't know, I'm a single-monitor guy. ;)

Post a reply to this message

nemesis wrote:
> Best way to get into Blender is to slowly learn your way through both 
> its 3D space and through its interface, which is organized in panels 
> containing related functionality.  All of it via keyboard, of course.

 From what I can tell, most everything can be accessed without the mouse at 
all, which is nice. When you can't remember the button, you can grope around 
thru the menus until you find something.

My main stumbling blocks seem to center around the system doing the wrong 
thing to be fast by default, in preference to doing the right thing slowly, 
which you have to figure out how to set up.

Otherwise, it seems pretty straightforward. Altho there are a couple (so 
far) of bothersome limitations, particularly in the textures. (Like, I don't 
know how to do checkerboards or hex shapes or some of the other stuff POV 
has built in, and you can't rotate a texture directly, so your wood rings 
are fixed in one axis - just minor stuff like that).

I've played with Hash Animation:Master, so most of the concepts (bones, 
strides, texture stacks, etc) are familiar, at least.

This is an awesome site for the parameters of the simulators:
http://www.pkblender.it/index.html
(What should be in the documentation to start with. :-)

And this guy does a great job of showing how to model something that isn't 
organic, which HAM made exceedingly difficult in my limited experience:
http://www.vimeo.com/groups/9075/videos/812311

Hope that helps anyone else who might be playing with Blender soon.

> I don't know, I'm a single-monitor guy. ;)

It's amazing how helpful it is, altho I don't understand people who put the 
space between the monitors right in front.

I saw one video of a UI idea, where when you're doing drag-and-drop, you can 
peel back the corner of the window you're over to expose the window 
underneath. I think D-a-D is the biggest win with a bigger monitor. :-)

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

Post a reply to this message

Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> Otherwise, it seems pretty straightforward. Altho there are a couple (so
> far) of bothersome limitations, particularly in the textures. (Like, I don't
> know how to do checkerboards or hex shapes or some of the other stuff POV
> has built in, and you can't rotate a texture directly, so your wood rings
> are fixed in one axis - just minor stuff like that).

Much more powerful procedural textures are coming to Blender soon enough,
completely modifiable via the nodes editor as well.  Anyway, most people into
Blender -- and most other 3D apps as well -- simply use image maps, though
being a povhead myself, I never quite adapted to the whole UV-unwrap thing
either.

> I've played with Hash Animation:Master, so most of the concepts (bones,
> strides, texture stacks, etc) are familiar, at least.

Yeah, I've did any animation either.  I'm a still guy.

> I saw one video of a UI idea, where when you're doing drag-and-drop, you can
> peel back the corner of the window you're over to expose the window
> underneath. I think D-a-D is the biggest win with a bigger monitor. :-)

OTOH, I'm pretty happy myself with the newer monitor that came with my new
q6600.  More available screen estate to the sides.  Though I know some people
who simply occupy the whole screen with a single window, because that's the
standard Windoze way. ;)

Post a reply to this message

nemesis wrote:
> Much more powerful procedural textures are coming to Blender soon enough,
> completely modifiable via the nodes editor as well.  Anyway, most people into
> Blender -- and most other 3D apps as well -- simply use image maps, though
> being a povhead myself, I never quite adapted to the whole UV-unwrap thing
> either.

I had noticed that. The POV community seems more purist, perhaps because 
POV's procedural textures are more powerful. One of my experiments consists 
of seeing how to get POV to render a texture in a way that I can use it 
easily as an image map.  (Not hard. Just a matter of getting the texture 
stack full of normals and displacements and all that right.)

> who simply occupy the whole screen with a single window, because that's the
> standard Windoze way. ;)

I never understood that myself. Blender makes it easy to work that way, but 
I usually get nuts of windows are under other windows.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

Post a reply to this message

Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> Does anyone here use blender?
>

I tried three times to get warm with "Blender".
I try it real serios and try to have no prejudices.
And certainly "Blender" have some nice features.

But the conceptional difference between POV-RAY and
"Blender" is not conquerable for me - at the moment.

Post a reply to this message

> Oh no, I do believe I said POV-Ray's texture system was superior in many
> ways to Blender's:
>
http://news.povray.org/povray.general/thread/%3Cweb.48fdae14f034d1aa519bbb570@news.povray.org%3E/
>
> Each program has its strong points, so it's all a matter of preference.
>   POV-Ray is a much more *fun* environment to experiment in.
>
> Sam

Okay, I guess my memory's not what it once was, heh! And no, I don't recall ever
seeing a Blender image posted here by you :)

But I'm sure I speak for a lot a folks when I say that your POV insights and
macros are an inspiration Sam; you produce some amazing work :)

Post a reply to this message

nemesis wrote:
> Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>> Otherwise, it seems pretty straightforward. Altho there are a couple (so
>> far) of bothersome limitations, particularly in the textures. (Like, I don't
>> know how to do checkerboards or hex shapes or some of the other stuff POV
>> has built in, and you can't rotate a texture directly, so your wood rings
>> are fixed in one axis - just minor stuff like that).
> 
> Much more powerful procedural textures are coming to Blender soon enough,
> completely modifiable via the nodes editor as well.  Anyway, most people into
> Blender -- and most other 3D apps as well -- simply use image maps, though
> being a povhead myself, I never quite adapted to the whole UV-unwrap thing
> either.
> 
Well, I don't get how they do it anyway. I mean, you "unwrap" your mesh 
to a pattern which is either a) sort of like the original, but not 
really, or b) a lot of squares, where you can't tell the original 
geometry. Then you paint it, reimport, overlay it into the UV pattern 
then how the frack it works. Think the guys with.. deep paint, or what 
ever its called, have it right. Lose the idiot, "make it some place 
else, then glue it on like a label", BS and just paint directly on the 
object, like you would in the real world. If you can't precisely control 
the texture, its position, etc., or get an "accurate" mesh layout to 
draw into, what is the point? And, even if its "may" be accurate, 
technically, it takes a very different mind than mine to "get" how the 
two correspond, without having some way to "see it" as I am doing the 
drawing.

-- 
void main () {
   If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models, 
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>

Post a reply to this message

In Blender it is possible to paint directly on the model using texture 
paint. Works best if it is a low-poly model with subsurf that can be turned 
off while painting. It isn't something that I've completely mastered but I 
have been able to get it to work pretty well. That is how I created the 
texture map for this model http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqmRT87HhtE

I created a grid pattern for the uvmap, unwrapped the head and applied the 
map, and then used texture paint to block in the colors, like the eyebrows, 
eyeliner, lips, and blush. The image at that point shows the features well 
enough to figure out what-goes-where and then I added details in photoshop. 
Takes quite a long time so I've been putting it off for several other models 
in the works. I find the hardest part is remembering all the steps involved 
in using the uv editor.

Mike


"Patrick Elliott" <sel### [at] npgcablecom> wrote in message 
news:4998e2a7$1@news.povray.org...
> nemesis wrote:
>> Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>>> Otherwise, it seems pretty straightforward. Altho there are a couple (so
>>> far) of bothersome limitations, particularly in the textures. (Like, I 
>>> don't
>>> know how to do checkerboards or hex shapes or some of the other stuff 
>>> POV
>>> has built in, and you can't rotate a texture directly, so your wood 
>>> rings
>>> are fixed in one axis - just minor stuff like that).
>>
>> Much more powerful procedural textures are coming to Blender soon enough,
>> completely modifiable via the nodes editor as well.  Anyway, most people 
>> into
>> Blender -- and most other 3D apps as well -- simply use image maps, 
>> though
>> being a povhead myself, I never quite adapted to the whole UV-unwrap 
>> thing
>> either.
>>
> Well, I don't get how they do it anyway. I mean, you "unwrap" your mesh to 
> a pattern which is either a) sort of like the original, but not really, or 
> b) a lot of squares, where you can't tell the original geometry. Then you 
> paint it, reimport, overlay it into the UV pattern then how the frack it 
> works. Think the guys with.. deep paint, or what ever its called, have it 
> right. Lose the idiot, "make it some place else, then glue it on like a 
> label", BS and just paint directly on the object, like you would in the 
> real world. If you can't precisely control the texture, its position, 
> etc., or get an "accurate" mesh layout to draw into, what is the point? 
> And, even if its "may" be accurate, technically, it takes a very different 
> mind than mine to "get" how the two correspond, without having some way to 
> "see it" as I am doing the drawing.
>
> -- 
> void main () {
>   If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
>     if version = "Vista" {
>       call slow_by_half();
>       call DRM_everything();
>     }
>     call functional_code();
>   }
>   else
>     call crash_windows();
> }
>
> <A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models, 3D 
> Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>

Post a reply to this message

Patrick Elliott wrote:
> ever its called, have it right. Lose the idiot, "make it some place 
> else, then glue it on like a label", BS and just paint directly on the 
> object, like you would in the real world. 

That's one of the things Animation Master got right. You could just stamp an 
image down. Especially nice if you modeled something based on orthographic 
views, because then you could just slap the image down.

I saw another program where you could draw the geometry, then hand basically 
a frontal view to an artist who would paint on the view you'd see from the 
camera, and then you could import that right back onto the model. Find spots 
you couldn't see, get the artist to fill them in, reimport, lather rinse 
repeat. The examples used buildings in game levels, so I'm not sure how good 
it would be for faces or something. It helped that you could put some basic 
texturing on the buildings and let the artist fill in details like dirt and 
rust and signs and cobwebs and doorknobs and stuff.

The UV mapping in blender lets you do other stuff, tho, too, like 
automatically baking shadows into the images so you can turn the ray-tracing 
off for drawing animations, and stuff like that.

It's a very complicated program.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

Post a reply to this message

> Does anyone here use blender?

Glad you seemed to have fixed your problem yourself - sometimes the last 
resort is to make a post somewhere in the hope of getting an answer!

Personally I've mainly used Blender for mesh generation and simple UV 
texture mapping (for export for use in a game), but I did dabble a bit with 
the bones and animation features.  I do remember a couple of things about 
that where, like you say, doing seemingly exactly the same thing would 
sometimes work and sometimes not (to do with getting an animal walking).  To 
this day I don't think I ever figured out what it was, and the tutorials I 
was following seemed to be based on a previous version of Blender.  I just 
lost interest in the end.

Post a reply to this message

Am Sat, 14 Feb 2009 13:08:53 -0800 schrieb Darren New:

> Does anyone here use blender?

I'm using it. Not for rendering mainly, but for designing cardboard 
models (ok, not the best-suited program for that task like for example 
Rhino, but Rhino isn't free as in beer). Modelling, constructing and 
scripting basically.


OOC, does anybody here do cardboard modelling (or papercraft, whatever 
you call it)?

Micha

Post a reply to this message

On 14-2-2009 22:08, Darren New wrote:
> Does anyone here use blender?
> 
yes.

Oh, and I am one of them. Mainly using it for meshes that never get 
rendered (as in 3D models of humans to do electrical computations in). I 
do have 3 instances of it open at the moment. When I do render 
something, I always fall back on the POVanim package 
(http://jmsoler.free.fr/util/blenderfile/fr/povanim_en.htm) The 
existence of which should have answered your question.

Post a reply to this message

Michael Zier wrote:
> I'm using it. Not for rendering mainly, but for designing cardboard 
> models 

Actually, that sounds like a real win for UV unwrapping. :-)

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

Post a reply to this message

andrel wrote:
> I always fall back on the POVanim package 

Oh, very cool. I'll definitely have to check that out!

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

Post a reply to this message

On 16-2-2009 19:47, Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> I always fall back on the POVanim package 
> 
> Oh, very cool. I'll definitely have to check that out!
> 
In my experience it does not work straight as installed. He seems to put 
the mesh in another directory as the POV file points to. Easily fixed if 
that happens, but just in case you will be wondering if you did 
something wrong...

Post a reply to this message

Am Mon, 16 Feb 2009 10:45:50 -0800 schrieb Darren New:

> Michael Zier wrote:
>> I'm using it. Not for rendering mainly, but for designing cardboard
>> models
> 
> Actually, that sounds like a real win for UV unwrapping. :-)

Well, not really. UV unwrapping doesn't (normally) care to preserve the 
shape of the individual faces, which is deadly for unfolding paper 
models. There's the "Unfold Mesh" script (now included in the Blender 
distro) which is doing what you might want, but I wrote a new unfolding 
script more suited to my needs. 
You might find it and some additional scripts here:
http://www.kartonbau.de/wbb2/thread.php?
threadid=17937&threadview=1&hilight=&hilightuser=0&page=2#post283818
(registration and german language knowledge might be required)

Post a reply to this message