Hehehehe, white-out!



Now we have some "snow" worth talking about. Roughly 12 cm or something. 
The roads have vanished under a carpet of white. (At least, the roads I 
can see.) And, unsurprisingly, a number of road traffic accidents have 
gridlocked most of the road system. So apparently I'm staying at home 
today. :-)

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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More snow is falling. Unlike yesterday, this time my dad decided we 
would attempt to get to work today.

Usually that takes 1 hour. Not today. Every time we reached a hill, 
there was a lorry at the bottom of it spinning its wheels. We managed to 
illegally overtake a few of them, but then we'd drive a mile or so and 
hit another 4-mile traffic jam behind another lorry stuck on another hill.

At 9:30 AM we decided to turn round and come home. Except the route we 
came by was now blocked as well. We got less than half way to work, and 
it took until noon to get back home again - several times longer than 
the outbound journey. :-D

Oh, and we also helped a damsel in distress on a deserted backroad we 
found. She was sitting in her heavy car with its powerful engine, 
spinning the wheels. Me and my dad were able to rock the car until it 
attained traction. (I make it sound easy. It wasn't. My office shoes 
have no tred; they are flat at the bottom. I couldn't get any traction 
to push with.)



While I'm here, can we straighten this out? I was under the impression 
that the correct way to drive in snow is the following:

- The correct way to get traction is to turn the wheels as slowly as 
possible, not spin them at maximum power.

- If your car skids, turn into the direction of the skid.

- If you skip under braking, ease off the brakes. If you skid under 
acceleration, reduce power a little.

- If you need to go up hill, do it fast so the momentum will carry you 
over. (I saw lots of people slowing down for the hills in case they 
skid, or trying to go up a hill from a stationary position.)

Can anyone confirm or refuse these claims?

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Can anyone confirm or refuse these claims?

That's about right, yes.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

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On Fri, 06 Feb 2009 13:04:41 +0000, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

> While I'm here, can we straighten this out? I was under the impression
> that the correct way to drive in snow is the following:
> 
> - The correct way to get traction is to turn the wheels as slowly as
> possible, not spin them at maximum power.

Yes, that is correct.  Spinning the wheels will generally dig you in 
deeper.

> - If your car skids, turn into the direction of the skid.

Correct, but you have to be careful not to over-correct, lest you hit a 
dry patch on the road and spin the car.  I did that and ended up in the 
ditch, once - after doing a 360 in one direction and then a 720 in the 
opposite.

> - If you skip under braking, ease off the brakes. If you skid under
> acceleration, reduce power a little.

Well, brakes tend to be "on or off", if you don't have ABS, pumping the 
brake pedal generally works well, but also if you can drop to a lower 
gear, do that.  Don't do anything that would normally cause a fast change 
in speed because you'll lose control.

What I do on ice if accelerating is take my foot off the gas and drop the 
car to 3rd gear (I drive an automatic, but this works in a manual 
transmission car as well).  Don't touch the brakes, because in general it 
won't do anything but cause you to lose control.

I also will occasionally tap the brakes to see if the car will slow 
down.  It's important to do this while the wheels are pointing forward, 
though; if you do this and have the wheels turned, you could spin out of 
control if the circumstances are right.

> - If you need to go up hill, do it fast so the momentum will carry you
> over. (I saw lots of people slowing down for the hills in case they
> skid, or trying to go up a hill from a stationary position.)

It depends on the hill.  If you go fast and there's a stop sign at the 
top of the hill, your chances of blowing through the intersection are 
really good, and there's always a chance when you do that of running into 
cross traffic if it's not a 4-way stop.

The best option is to find a different route if you encounter an icy hill 
- up or down.

The important thing when driving on ice is to not make any sudden changes 
- sudden turns, slamming on the brakes, fast acceleration - all of these 
can cause a loss of control.

Jim

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>> - The correct way to get traction is to turn the wheels as slowly as
>> possible, not spin them at maximum power.
> 
> Yes, that is correct.  Spinning the wheels will generally dig you in 
> deeper.

And yet, the girl we helped had her big, powerful BWM running at maximum 
revs. Perhaps she thinks if she revs it fast enough, eventually it will 
have some effect?

(Logically, if you spin the wheels long enough, you'll dig down to where 
the road is. Unfortunately, you now have to drive up a rather big hill 
to go anywhere...)

Anybody remember Ice Cold in Alex? Didn't they do something weird like 
put the car into 1st gear and turn the starting crank to make the wheels 
turn *really* slowly so it wouldn't disturb the sand?

>> - If your car skids, turn into the direction of the skid.
> 
> Correct, but you have to be careful not to over-correct, lest you hit a 
> dry patch on the road and spin the car.  I did that and ended up in the 
> ditch, once - after doing a 360 in one direction and then a 720 in the 
> opposite.

Well, the incidents I whitnessed today all happened at around 5 MPH or less.

>> - If you skip under braking, ease off the brakes. If you skid under
>> acceleration, reduce power a little.
> 
> Well, brakes tend to be "on or off", if you don't have ABS, pumping the 
> brake pedal generally works well, but also if you can drop to a lower 
> gear, do that.  Don't do anything that would normally cause a fast change 
> in speed because you'll lose control.

So not "OMG, I'm skidding, MAXIMUM BRAKES!!" then?

>> - If you need to go up hill, do it fast so the momentum will carry you
>> over. (I saw lots of people slowing down for the hills in case they
>> skid, or trying to go up a hill from a stationary position.)
> 
> It depends on the hill.  If you go fast and there's a stop sign at the 
> top of the hill, your chances of blowing through the intersection are 
> really good, and there's always a chance when you do that of running into 
> cross traffic if it's not a 4-way stop.

We're talking about hilly country roads that go on for miles without any 
junctions.

> The important thing when driving on ice is to not make any sudden changes 
> - sudden turns, slamming on the brakes, fast acceleration - all of these 
> can cause a loss of control.

And yet, almost every person I observed either immediately slammed on 
the brakes, or started wildly trying to correct the steering.

Jesus, people don't know how to drive in the snow... And this is... 
England?? O_O

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On Fri, 06 Feb 2009 19:45:36 +0000, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>>> - The correct way to get traction is to turn the wheels as slowly as
>>> possible, not spin them at maximum power.
>> 
>> Yes, that is correct.  Spinning the wheels will generally dig you in
>> deeper.
> 
> And yet, the girl we helped had her big, powerful BWM running at maximum
> revs. Perhaps she thinks if she revs it fast enough, eventually it will
> have some effect?

Well, yeah, a lot of people have mistaken ideas about a lot of different 
topics.

I suppose the logic is that if you dig in deep enough, you'll hit the 
real ground and the car will have enough momentum to jump out of the 
hole.  That can happen, but it also can be quite dangerous.

> (Logically, if you spin the wheels long enough, you'll dig down to where
> the road is. Unfortunately, you now have to drive up a rather big hill
> to go anywhere...)

Yep (guess I should've read a bit further, eh?)

>>> - If your car skids, turn into the direction of the skid.
>> 
>> Correct, but you have to be careful not to over-correct, lest you hit a
>> dry patch on the road and spin the car.  I did that and ended up in the
>> ditch, once - after doing a 360 in one direction and then a 720 in the
>> opposite.
> 
> Well, the incidents I whitnessed today all happened at around 5 MPH or
> less.

Yeah, it doesn't take much.  I spun out going onto a motorway, hit a 
patch of black ice while accelerating, and then overcorrected.

Experience is a good teacher, but some things shouldn't need to be 
experienced. ;-)

>> Well, brakes tend to be "on or off", if you don't have ABS, pumping the
>> brake pedal generally works well, but also if you can drop to a lower
>> gear, do that.  Don't do anything that would normally cause a fast
>> change in speed because you'll lose control.
> 
> So not "OMG, I'm skidding, MAXIMUM BRAKES!!" then?

Exactly.  Yet a lot of people's instinct is to slam on the brakes.  It's 
not always a conscious thing, though - and it's the sort of thing you 
have to be aware of as it happens.

There's been a couple of very public examples of not freaking out under 
extreme life-threatening pressure lately:  The guy who was in a tandem 
skydiving jump when his instructor had a heart attack and died, and the 
plane that went down in the Hudson river.

In both cases, the person in control (the student jumper in the skydiving 
incident, the pilot in the Hudson incident) didn't freak out, but 
remained calm.  The skydiving student had military training and that just 
kinda kicked in from the reports I've read of his account.  The pilot did 
ditch the plane in the river - which given the situation was better than 
hitting a residential section, and he managed to keep the plane level.  
IIRC there were some minor injuries, but all 55 passengers and the crew 
survived his "water landing".

This same need to remain calm carries into driving on slippery roads.  
You need a good situational awareness as well - keeping yourself from 
skidding out of control does little good if some lunatic runs into you 
because they're not there.

The best place to be when the roads are slick is not on the roads, 
obviously, but keeping an eye out all around (which requires very intense 
concentration IME) is important so if someone's driving like a lunatic, 
you're not in their way by the time they get to you.

>>> - If you need to go up hill, do it fast so the momentum will carry you
>>> over. (I saw lots of people slowing down for the hills in case they
>>> skid, or trying to go up a hill from a stationary position.)
>> 
>> It depends on the hill.  If you go fast and there's a stop sign at the
>> top of the hill, your chances of blowing through the intersection are
>> really good, and there's always a chance when you do that of running
>> into cross traffic if it's not a 4-way stop.
> 
> We're talking about hilly country roads that go on for miles without any
> junctions.

Well, having driven on country roads such as you describe in England, I 
observed that they rarely have long straight stretches; going fast on a 
slippery winding road also doesn't help.

Actually, there's a drive I took in New York State (north of NYC) where I 
was teaching a class a few years ago.  Ran into slippery, winding, snow-
packed country roads to get to the site (a school, oddly enough), and the 
rental car was from Georgia with all-purpose tires (not winter driving 
tires).  It took me about 90 minutes to go 10 miles, I just put the car 
in low gear and let the engine do the work, giving it very little gas the 
entire way.

Up hills, down hills, around corners, etc.  Fast wouldn't have helped 
there because of the lay of the roads.

>> The important thing when driving on ice is to not make any sudden
>> changes - sudden turns, slamming on the brakes, fast acceleration - all
>> of these can cause a loss of control.
> 
> And yet, almost every person I observed either immediately slammed on
> the brakes, or started wildly trying to correct the steering.

Yep.  Every year at the beginning of the winter season, I observe what 
I've come to term "vehicular darwinism" - people with big 4x4 vehicles 
driving like lunatics and letting their instincts/reactions guide them 
straight off the road.  Sometimes with very bad results, usually with 
slightly bad results.

> Jesus, people don't know how to drive in the snow... And this is...
> England?? O_O

Well, your weather tends to be pretty moderate; driving on snow and ice 
is something that can improve with practice, but in England you don't get 
a lot of practice.

I learned to drive on packed snow and ice - and when you're doing your 
behind-the-wheel instruction in those circumstances, the experience is 
very different.  There were days my entire lesson was "get the car from 
the high school to your house" (about 15 miles).

Learning to drive in that situation also had a downside - I couldn't 
correctly judge stopping distances on dry pavement properly because I'd 
had no practice at it at all.  I learned quickly, of course, but the 
first time I tried to stop on dry ice-free roads was interesting, and 
even kinda funny.  Fortunately, I didn't run into anything/anyone.

Jim

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>>>> - If your car skids, turn into the direction of the skid.
>>> Correct, but you have to be careful not to over-correct, lest you hit a
>>> dry patch on the road and spin the car.  I did that and ended up in the
>>> ditch, once - after doing a 360 in one direction and then a 720 in the
>>> opposite.
>> Well, the incidents I whitnessed today all happened at around 5 MPH or
>> less.
> 
> Yeah, it doesn't take much.  I spun out going onto a motorway, hit a 
> patch of black ice while accelerating, and then overcorrected.

I mean, I don't support you're that likely to spin the car when it's 
barely moving to start with. Just slide into the curb, really. (Or into 
some expensive car, at least...)

> Experience is a good teacher, but some things shouldn't need to be 
> experienced. ;-)

Like practicing how to repair a punctured lung using only a coat hanger?

>> So not "OMG, I'm skidding, MAXIMUM BRAKES!!" then?
> 
> Exactly.  Yet a lot of people's instinct is to slam on the brakes.  It's 
> not always a conscious thing, though - and it's the sort of thing you 
> have to be aware of as it happens.

Yeah, well... some people don't seem to realise that this is even the 
wrong response.

>> We're talking about hilly country roads that go on for miles without any
>> junctions.
> 
> Well, having driven on country roads such as you describe in England, I 
> observed that they rarely have long straight stretches; going fast on a 
> slippery winding road also doesn't help.

Well, it all depends.

In Switzerland, the mountain roads are under snow for half the year, and 
nobody seems to care much. OTOH... snowchains?

>> Jesus, people don't know how to drive in the snow... And this is...
>> England?? O_O
> 
> Well, your weather tends to be pretty moderate; driving on snow and ice 
> is something that can improve with practice, but in England you don't get 
> a lot of practice.

I guess that's the thing. When I was a child, it used to snow *every 
year*. As in, the whole country would be under perhaps a foot or so of 
snow for at least a few weeks every single year. There was so much snow 
you could actually build a snowman.

These days, some years there isn't even any frost, let alone *snow*! 
Every time I see a snowman, it looks very anemic - because nobody can 
find enough snow to do it properly! ;-)

Which reminds me... the last time it really snowed properly, I was still 
at school. It was about, I don't know, 30 cm or so, varying from place 
to place. Anyway, being very bored schoolkids, somebody starting rolling 
snow, and... well I think we used the *entire* football pitch. Do you 
have any idea how much snow there is in an area that large??

By the end of it, half the school was rolling this boulder of compacted 
ice along. We rolled it down the hill - Jesus, if anybody had been in 
the way, they would have been killed! - and we dumped it into the school 
pond. Man, it was like a nuke or something! One hell of a splash! ;-)

It took about 4 weeks for that ball to melt completely...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On Fri, 06 Feb 2009 21:57:28 +0000, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>>>>> - If your car skids, turn into the direction of the skid.
>>>> Correct, but you have to be careful not to over-correct, lest you hit
>>>> a dry patch on the road and spin the car.  I did that and ended up in
>>>> the ditch, once - after doing a 360 in one direction and then a 720
>>>> in the opposite.
>>> Well, the incidents I whitnessed today all happened at around 5 MPH or
>>> less.
>> 
>> Yeah, it doesn't take much.  I spun out going onto a motorway, hit a
>> patch of black ice while accelerating, and then overcorrected.
> 
> I mean, I don't support you're that likely to spin the car when it's
> barely moving to start with. Just slide into the curb, really. (Or into
> some expensive car, at least...)

Depends on the ice.  I've seen cars spin out at low speed.  They spin 
slowly, but they can spin out.

>> Experience is a good teacher, but some things shouldn't need to be
>> experienced. ;-)
> 
> Like practicing how to repair a punctured lung using only a coat hanger?

Yeah, that's a good example. ;-)

>>> So not "OMG, I'm skidding, MAXIMUM BRAKES!!" then?
>> 
>> Exactly.  Yet a lot of people's instinct is to slam on the brakes. 
>> It's not always a conscious thing, though - and it's the sort of thing
>> you have to be aware of as it happens.
> 
> Yeah, well... some people don't seem to realise that this is even the
> wrong response.

That's because they don't think about it, they just react on instinct.  
Their instinct is "if I press the brakes hard, I will stop".  Add to that 
a lack of experience that is contrary to what their instincts say, and, 
well, there you go....

>>> We're talking about hilly country roads that go on for miles without
>>> any junctions.
>> 
>> Well, having driven on country roads such as you describe in England, I
>> observed that they rarely have long straight stretches; going fast on a
>> slippery winding road also doesn't help.
> 
> Well, it all depends.
> 
> In Switzerland, the mountain roads are under snow for half the year, and
> nobody seems to care much. OTOH... snowchains?

Snowchains can help, but only in the right circumstances.  Using them on 
dry pavement is really bad - for the tires, for the roads.....

But also, in places where snow is on the ground a lot, people have 
adapted to learn how to drive in the conditions.

>>> Jesus, people don't know how to drive in the snow... And this is...
>>> England?? O_O
>> 
>> Well, your weather tends to be pretty moderate; driving on snow and ice
>> is something that can improve with practice, but in England you don't
>> get a lot of practice.
> 
> I guess that's the thing. When I was a child, it used to snow *every
> year*. As in, the whole country would be under perhaps a foot or so of
> snow for at least a few weeks every single year. There was so much snow
> you could actually build a snowman.

See, a foot of snow isn't a lot compared to what I grew up in - we could 
tunnel under the snow and make forts.  Which of course these days is 
described as incredibly dangerous, and it probably was back then too, but 
we lived to tell the tale.

And the snow was persistent from when it started in early November 
through March.  Not just a couple of weeks a year, but for months on end.

> These days, some years there isn't even any frost, let alone *snow*!
> Every time I see a snowman, it looks very anemic - because nobody can
> find enough snow to do it properly! ;-)

:-)  Right now the landscape here in the state where the license plates 
declare "The Greatest Snow on Earth" is pretty anemic.  But the base in 
the mountains is 75-100".

> Which reminds me... the last time it really snowed properly, I was still
> at school. It was about, I don't know, 30 cm or so, varying from place
> to place. Anyway, being very bored schoolkids, somebody starting rolling
> snow, and... well I think we used the *entire* football pitch. Do you
> have any idea how much snow there is in an area that large??

A lot.  Cubing stuff (any stuff) tends to make the numbers big. :-)

> By the end of it, half the school was rolling this boulder of compacted
> ice along. We rolled it down the hill - Jesus, if anybody had been in
> the way, they would have been killed! - and we dumped it into the school
> pond. Man, it was like a nuke or something! One hell of a splash! ;-)
>
> It took about 4 weeks for that ball to melt completely...

That sounds like fun. :-)

Jim

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> Well, brakes tend to be "on or off", if you don't have ABS, pumping the
> brake pedal generally works well, but also if you can drop to a lower
> gear, do that.

Watch out though when changing down (in a manual), you might lock the driven 
wheels if you let up the clutch too quickly, in a rear wheel drive car this 
can give you a good wake up call :-)

> I also will occasionally tap the brakes to see if the car will slow
> down.

Yep this is good advice, when it's safe to do so then *try out* how much 
grip you actually have, this will avoid a big surprise later up the road 
when you really do need to stop or turn quickly.

Post a reply to this message

> I mean, I don't support you're that likely to spin the car when it's 
> barely moving to start with. Just slide into the curb, really. (Or into 
> some expensive car, at least...)

Having a rear wheel drive car makes it vastly easier to spin around.  In a 
front wheel drive car you are more likely to just go straight in a corner 
and hit the barrier/curb, in a RWD car you are more likely to end up facing 
the wrong way.

> Yeah, well... some people don't seem to realise that this is even the 
> wrong response.

If you want to stop your car actually spinning around and are happy for it 
just to carry on sliding in a predictable manner then slamming on the brakes 
is the best thing to do.  If you don't then at some point the car will get 
some grip back and make some sudden movement you probably weren't expecting. 
Depends on the situation of course, but it's wrong to say never brake if you 
are skidding.

> In Switzerland, the mountain roads are under snow for half the year, and 
> nobody seems to care much. OTOH... snowchains?

And thick snow is predictable, patchy ice isn't.

> I guess that's the thing. When I was a child, it used to snow *every 
> year*. As in, the whole country would be under perhaps a foot or so of 
> snow for at least a few weeks every single year.

Sorry, but IIRC I'm roughly the same age as you and I certainly don't 
remember it ever being like that.  I can remember ONCE when we had as much 
snow as you seem to have had recently, that was the only time I got to see a 
snow plough come down our road.  Certainly it never lasted for more than a 
day or two, and certainly not every year.

Post a reply to this message

>> Yeah, well... some people don't seem to realise that this is even the 
>> wrong response.
> 
> If you want to stop your car actually spinning around and are happy for 
> it just to carry on sliding in a predictable manner then slamming on the 
> brakes is the best thing to do.  If you don't then at some point the car 
> will get some grip back and make some sudden movement you probably 
> weren't expecting. Depends on the situation of course, but it's wrong to 
> say never brake if you are skidding.

Sure. But slamming the brakes hard on while making wild steering 
movements is really not a good way to regain control of the vehicle. 
That's all I'm saying.

>> I guess that's the thing. When I was a child, it used to snow *every 
>> year*. As in, the whole country would be under perhaps a foot or so of 
>> snow for at least a few weeks every single year.
> 
> Sorry, but IIRC I'm roughly the same age as you and I certainly don't 
> remember it ever being like that.  I can remember ONCE when we had as 
> much snow as you seem to have had recently, that was the only time I got 
> to see a snow plough come down our road.  Certainly it never lasted for 
> more than a day or two, and certainly not every year.

Maybe it varies across the UK? Apparently (according to the MET office) 
the average temperature in, say, Devon is several degrees higher than 
where I live.

Certainly this is the first time I can remember this millennium when 
there's been enough snow to make a real snowman, not an anemic excuse 
for one. Last time I can remember that happening is 1994 - which is a 
rather long time ago.

As I say, it used to be a regular yearly thing. That's why we have 
Christmas cards showing the English countryside burried under feet of 
snow. It used to happen all the time. It's rare now...

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 09 Feb 2009 11:16:39 +0000, Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:

> Last time I can remember that happening is 1994 - which is a 
>rather long time ago.
>

Whippersnapper

>As I say, it used to be a regular yearly thing. That's why we have 
>Christmas cards showing the English countryside burried under feet of 
>snow. It used to happen all the time. It's rare now...

Winters are getting milder IMO too.
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

> Sure. But slamming the brakes hard on while making wild steering movements 
> is really not a good way to regain control of the vehicle. That's all I'm 
> saying.

Any wild movements are never good, even on wet or dry roads :-)

> Maybe it varies across the UK? Apparently (according to the MET office) 
> the average temperature in, say, Devon is several degrees higher than 
> where I live.

Yeh I guess growing up within a few miles of the south coast kept things 
pretty warm...

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>> Sure. But slamming the brakes hard on while making wild steering 
>> movements is really not a good way to regain control of the vehicle. 
>> That's all I'm saying.
> 
> Any wild movements are never good, even on wet or dry roads :-)

Uh, affirm.

>> Maybe it varies across the UK? Apparently (according to the MET 
>> office) the average temperature in, say, Devon is several degrees 
>> higher than where I live.
> 
> Yeh I guess growing up within a few miles of the south coast kept things 
> pretty warm...

I got two words for you. One of them means a large gap, and the other 
means a small water course... ;-)

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
> 
> Any wild movements are never good, even on wet or dry roads :-)
> 

But still they can be so fun! Oh, I really need a new RWD-wintertoy
after I sold my old Volvo...

-Aero

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
> Well, brakes tend to be "on or off", if you don't have ABS, pumping the 

New car's brakes usually feel like that, but after a while one can found
a analog curve of braking power in even them.

> What I do on ice if accelerating is take my foot off the gas and drop the 
> car to 3rd gear (I drive an automatic, but this works in a manual 
> transmission car as well).  Don't touch the brakes, because in general it 
> won't do anything but cause you to lose control.

You don't have to slam the brakes, you know? The curve for braking power
is analog one (ie. non-digital), so you can amount any power between
minimum and maximum to the brakes (like you do at summer, just be more
careful). Naturally the feeling is different in different cars, but it's
still there, it just need a bit of practice.

> I also will occasionally tap the brakes to see if the car will slow 
> down.  It's important to do this while the wheels are pointing forward, 
> though; if you do this and have the wheels turned, you could spin out of 
> control if the circumstances are right.

Another way is to give some gas and check if the wheels start spinning.
On FWD car this won't make any kind of spinning of the car itself.
Naturally you'll need to know your tires to know how well you can brake
by this test.

> The best option is to find a different route if you encounter an icy hill 
> - up or down.

If you'll need to get up an icy hill outside of public roads and have an
FWD car, go reverse - you'll gain more traction on the front wheels that
way.

> The important thing when driving on ice is to not make any sudden changes 
> - sudden turns, slamming on the brakes, fast acceleration - all of these 
> can cause a loss of control.

True. It's also a good habit to find a large field oslt to test out
these things. The better you'll feel the road and know the car, the
better your instincts will perform before you can think what's even
happening - therefore the better are your chances to survive ;).

> Jim

-Aero

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On Mon, 09 Feb 2009 19:06:29 +0200, Eero Ahonen wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> 
>> Well, brakes tend to be "on or off", if you don't have ABS, pumping the
> 
> New car's brakes usually feel like that, but after a while one can found
> a analog curve of braking power in even them.

True.

>> What I do on ice if accelerating is take my foot off the gas and drop
>> the car to 3rd gear (I drive an automatic, but this works in a manual
>> transmission car as well).  Don't touch the brakes, because in general
>> it won't do anything but cause you to lose control.
> 
> You don't have to slam the brakes, you know? The curve for braking power
> is analog one (ie. non-digital), so you can amount any power between
> minimum and maximum to the brakes (like you do at summer, just be more
> careful). Naturally the feeling is different in different cars, but it's
> still there, it just need a bit of practice.

Well, I've only got something like 20 years of experience driving during 
winters in Minnesota and Utah to call on.  It's been my experience that 
it is generally more effective to downshift and let the engine do the 
work.  Unless you know with relative precision how slippery it is, 
tapping the breaks can be a bad prospect.

I've managed to put two cars in the ditch in 20 years.  One from 
overcorrecting a spin, and one for not slowing down enough because some 
jackass was tailgating me.  I've never managed to put my car in the ditch 
by stepping on the brakes, because I was taught not to do that and I 
don't. <shrug>  I can't argue with what works for me.

>> I also will occasionally tap the brakes to see if the car will slow
>> down.  It's important to do this while the wheels are pointing forward,
>> though; if you do this and have the wheels turned, you could spin out
>> of control if the circumstances are right.
> 
> Another way is to give some gas and check if the wheels start spinning.
> On FWD car this won't make any kind of spinning of the car itself.
> Naturally you'll need to know your tires to know how well you can brake
> by this test.

Yes, that will also work, but yes, it is dependent on knowing the 
condition of your tires.  I think we both can agree that there is a high 
degree of situational awareness called for.

>> The best option is to find a different route if you encounter an icy
>> hill - up or down.
> 
> If you'll need to get up an icy hill outside of public roads and have an
> FWD car, go reverse - you'll gain more traction on the front wheels that
> way.

Yes, absolutely.  In fact, I did get to do this a couple years ago - 
started down a hill that was covered in ice, and after watching a car 
come over and slam into a parked car and then the stop sign on the 
opposite corner, I opted to back up and find another way down.  Reverse 
worked very well for that.

>> The important thing when driving on ice is to not make any sudden
>> changes - sudden turns, slamming on the brakes, fast acceleration - all
>> of these can cause a loss of control.
> 
> True. It's also a good habit to find a large field oslt to test out
> these things. The better you'll feel the road and know the car, the
> better your instincts will perform before you can think what's even
> happening - therefore the better are your chances to survive ;).

Yes, agreed - the more you can practice in a safe environment, the better 
prepared you'll be.  :-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 09 Feb 2009 12:00:33 +0100, scott wrote:

>> Well, brakes tend to be "on or off", if you don't have ABS, pumping the
>> brake pedal generally works well, but also if you can drop to a lower
>> gear, do that.
> 
> Watch out though when changing down (in a manual), you might lock the
> driven wheels if you let up the clutch too quickly, in a rear wheel
> drive car this can give you a good wake up call :-)

Oh, yes, absolutely.  I have an automatic now, but I learned on a 
stick....and that does change the tactics.

> 
>> I also will occasionally tap the brakes to see if the car will slow
>> down.
> 
> Yep this is good advice, when it's safe to do so then *try out* how much
> grip you actually have, this will avoid a big surprise later up the road
> when you really do need to stop or turn quickly.

Yup.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 09 Feb 2009 18:55:20 +0200, Eero Ahonen wrote:

> scott wrote:
>> 
>> Any wild movements are never good, even on wet or dry roads :-)
>> 
>> 
> But still they can be so fun! Oh, I really need a new RWD-wintertoy
> after I sold my old Volvo...
> 
> -Aero

LOL, ain't that the truth...They can be fun in controlled circumstances, 
hell, even after I spun my Ford Escort out (my first time off-road in a 
car not designed for it), after making sure I was OK and the car wasn't 
damaged, I thought that it seemed kinda fun.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

>> Any wild movements are never good, even on wet or dry roads :-)
>>
>
> But still they can be so fun!

Well of course if you are deliberately aiming for such things, I can never 
resist blipping the accelerator on an empty snowy corner to get a bit of 
sideways action :-D

If only I had the skill to do this with my car without crashing! (but not 
the stupidity to do it while there's other traffic arround).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buZ5407L718

> Oh, I really need a new RWD-wintertoy
> after I sold my old Volvo...

Hehe I love mine, but first I always have to hold down some button for 5 
seconds to really turn off all the driving aids (just pressing it only turns 
them half off).  Actually 99% of the time I have all the driving aids turned 
on (that's the default), they really are quite impressive at keeping the car 
going the direction you are pointing.

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
> 
> Well of course if you are deliberately aiming for such things, I can
> never resist blipping the accelerator on an empty snowy corner to get a
> bit of sideways action :-D

Doesn't help me, while I'm driving FWD as daily ride.

> If only I had the skill to do this with my car without crashing! (but
> not the stupidity to do it while there's other traffic arround).
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buZ5407L718

Nnnnnice, proper 4WD sliding is always fun to watch, but as you say, it
doesn't belong there where this was shooted.

> Hehe I love mine, but first I always have to hold down some button for 5
> seconds to really turn off all the driving aids (just pressing it only
> turns them half off).  Actually 99% of the time I have all the driving
> aids turned on (that's the default), they really are quite impressive at
> keeping the car going the direction you are pointing.

Same for me with ESP, even though most slides (practically all I've
faced) would piece of cake to take control or even get back controlled
by the natural movement of the car - Audi B8 is actually pretty easy and
nice to handle in such manners.

-Aero

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
> Well, I've only got something like 20 years of experience driving during 
> winters in Minnesota and Utah to call on.  

I only have 10 in Finland :-). Honestly, I have no idea what kind of
winters there is at Utah or Minnesota, but I assume that means there's
snow and ice available enough.

> It's been my experience that 
> it is generally more effective to downshift and let the engine do the 
> work.  

How could it be? In both styles the negative acceleration is applied to
the ground via tires and tire/ground -layer being the weakest part -
with downshifting most cars do it practically via 1 wheel, almost no car
makes it via 4 wheel (which would mean 4WD with completely locked
differentials), while brakes are applied via all 4 wheels. Breaking with
the engine is of course more economical

> Unless you know with relative precision how slippery it is, 
> tapping the breaks can be a bad prospect.

There might be a language wall here - I'd consider tapping as a slight
touch and hitting the brakes as a 'do-not-do' -movement on ice.

> I've managed to put two cars in the ditch in 20 years.  One from 
> overcorrecting a spin, and one for not slowing down enough because some 
> jackass was tailgating me.  I've never managed to put my car in the ditch 
> by stepping on the brakes, because I was taught not to do that and I 
> don't. <shrug>  I can't argue with what works for me.

We have the same ratio, I've put one in 10 years :). That was due to
lifting the gas pedal while coming back to my lane after overtaking
another car. And well, that was actually no ditch AFAIK, while the same
car is still mine and registered (just now out of the traffic, though -
it's my summer toy).

And I'm not saying that braking with the engine doesn't work - I'm
saying that braking with the brakes works too, it just needs to be done
carefully.

> Yes, that will also work, but yes, it is dependent on knowing the 
> condition of your tires.  I think we both can agree that there is a high 
> degree of situational awareness called for.

*Everything* while driving on ice is dependent on knowing the condition
of tires, more or less. As pointed out, RWD can give you a spin (or try
it) with downshifting, if the road is too slippery. It's always
necessary to know what kind of tires you're driving on and what's their
condition. What I ment is that to test the possibilities to brake with
accelerating you'll need to know the ratio of acceleration traction and
braking traction of your tires. Eg. I once had tires (Kleber Kapnor 4
185/65/15) which were catastrophic when accelerating, but pretty good
when turning and braking.

> Yes, agreed - the more you can practice in a safe environment, the better 
> prepared you'll be.  :-)

And the more fun you'll have (while practicing, of course), so it's a
win-win situation :-).

> Jim

-Aero

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
> If only I had the skill to do this with my car without crashing! 

I'm not sure it's his car. He has a price written on the window. :-)
I suspect he may be taking a used car for a test drive. ;-)

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:57:00 +0200, Eero Ahonen wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> 
>> Well, I've only got something like 20 years of experience driving
>> during winters in Minnesota and Utah to call on.
> 
> I only have 10 in Finland :-). Honestly, I have no idea what kind of
> winters there is at Utah or Minnesota, but I assume that means there's
> snow and ice available enough.

Yes, and plenty of it in both places.  Drove into work on ice and snow 
today, in fact - and slid turning into the parking lot at work. :-)

>> It's been my experience that
>> it is generally more effective to downshift and let the engine do the
>> work.
> 
> How could it be? In both styles the negative acceleration is applied to
> the ground via tires and tire/ground -layer being the weakest part -
> with downshifting most cars do it practically via 1 wheel, almost no car
> makes it via 4 wheel (which would mean 4WD with completely locked
> differentials), while brakes are applied via all 4 wheels. Breaking with
> the engine is of course more economical

By downshifting, what happens is the wheels aren't stopped, but the 
torque applied through the drivetrain slows them down as the engine revs 
come down.  This has been my experience in 4 cars, including the first 
car I drove (a manual) - but of course you have to be more careful in a 
manual when downshifting - usually I'd start by just putting the clutch 
in and letting the car coast.  I did actually get to the point with that 
car, though, that I could shift if I needed to without using the clutch, 
just listen to the engine and when it got to the right speed, shifting 
without the clutch wasn't a problem.  I don't know if it's that easy to 
do in newer manual transmission cars, though - that old car was a '74 
Duster, manual *everything*, power *nothing*. ;-)

>> Unless you know with relative precision how slippery it is, tapping the
>> breaks can be a bad prospect.
> 
> There might be a language wall here - I'd consider tapping as a slight
> touch and hitting the brakes as a 'do-not-do' -movement on ice.

It depends on the road conditions.  For example, this morning as I turned 
left into the parking lot at the office, the car's momentum overcame the 
friction of the tires on the ice, and I ended up not turning as per usual 
but sliding instead.  In that case, pumping the breaks was an effective 
way to slow the car down.  Similar effect to a car with ABS (which I 
really miss in my current car, my last one had ABS but the new one 
doesn't), but the pulsing isn't rapid.

If a car has ABS, you can get away with hitting the breaks, because the 
ABS system will prevent the wheels from locking up.

>> I've managed to put two cars in the ditch in 20 years.  One from
>> overcorrecting a spin, and one for not slowing down enough because some
>> jackass was tailgating me.  I've never managed to put my car in the
>> ditch by stepping on the brakes, because I was taught not to do that
>> and I don't. <shrug>  I can't argue with what works for me.
> 
> We have the same ratio, I've put one in 10 years :). That was due to
> lifting the gas pedal while coming back to my lane after overtaking
> another car. And well, that was actually no ditch AFAIK, while the same
> car is still mine and registered (just now out of the traffic, though -
> it's my summer toy).

:-)

> And I'm not saying that braking with the engine doesn't work - I'm
> saying that braking with the brakes works too, it just needs to be done
> carefully.

Yes, and I can agree with that.  The problem is that most people don't do 
it carefully enough, and end up like the SUV I saw on the way into work 
today - wrecked.

>> Yes, that will also work, but yes, it is dependent on knowing the
>> condition of your tires.  I think we both can agree that there is a
>> high degree of situational awareness called for.
> 
> *Everything* while driving on ice is dependent on knowing the condition
> of tires, more or less. As pointed out, RWD can give you a spin (or try
> it) with downshifting, if the road is too slippery. It's always
> necessary to know what kind of tires you're driving on and what's their
> condition. What I ment is that to test the possibilities to brake with
> accelerating you'll need to know the ratio of acceleration traction and
> braking traction of your tires. Eg. I once had tires (Kleber Kapnor 4
> 185/65/15) which were catastrophic when accelerating, but pretty good
> when turning and braking.

We are in violent agreement. ;-)

>> Yes, agreed - the more you can practice in a safe environment, the
>> better prepared you'll be.  :-)
> 
> And the more fun you'll have (while practicing, of course), so it's a
> win-win situation :-).

:-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

>> It's been my experience that
>> it is generally more effective to downshift and let the engine do the
>> work.
>
> How could it be? In both styles the negative acceleration is applied to
> the ground via tires and tire/ground -layer being the weakest part -
> with downshifting most cars do it practically via 1 wheel, almost no car
> makes it via 4 wheel (which would mean 4WD with completely locked
> differentials), while brakes are applied via all 4 wheels.

Maybe in some cars with sensitive brake pedals it's easier to control the 
small amount of negative acceleration through the clutch/gears/accelerator 
than through the brake pedal?

Post a reply to this message

> By downshifting, what happens is the wheels aren't stopped, but the
> torque applied through the drivetrain slows them down as the engine revs
> come down.

The brakes do the same.  And in both cases, as soon as the negative torque
(either from engine or brakes) is higher than the friction between the tyre
and road, the wheels lock.  As I said in my other post, maybe it's easier to
control small amounts of negative torque with the gears, but still you're
only applying it to 1 or 2 wheels, not 4, so you're never going to be able
to slow down as quickly.

> In that case, pumping the breaks was an effective
> way to slow the car down.  Similar effect to a car with ABS (which I
> really miss in my current car, my last one had ABS but the new one
> doesn't), but the pulsing isn't rapid.

They make cars without ABS?

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 09:14:57 +0100, scott wrote:

>> By downshifting, what happens is the wheels aren't stopped, but the
>> torque applied through the drivetrain slows them down as the engine
>> revs come down.
> 
> The brakes do the same.  And in both cases, as soon as the negative
> torque (either from engine or brakes) is higher than the friction
> between the tyre and road, the wheels lock.  As I said in my other post,
> maybe it's easier to control small amounts of negative torque with the
> gears, but still you're only applying it to 1 or 2 wheels, not 4, so
> you're never going to be able to slow down as quickly.

Um, no, the brakes don't do the same - if you have disc brakes, the 
brakes stop the wheels when fully engaged (I don't have drum brakes so I 
can't comment on those).  Conversely, by downshifting, you increase the 
engine revs and the wheels are not locked - they still turn.

Now, when you're on dry pavement, the wheels normally don't lock because 
the car's momentum overcomes the friction on the brakes, bringing you to 
a gentle (or sometimes less-than-gentle) stop.  On ice, though, it takes 
less friction of the brake pads against the wheel to stop the wheels 
because it takes less to overcome the friction of the wheel against the 
ground.

So it's easier to lock the wheels up and skid.

However, you're right that you won't slow down as quickly by using the 
engine to slow the vehicle down.  The point isn't to slow down quickly, 
it's to slow down safely.

You have to combine this with driving more defensively as well - not 
following the car ahead of you too closely, for example.  If you don't 
give yourself more space to stop, you'll run into someone else.

But that gets into another whole area of "stupid driver tricks".

>> In that case, pumping the breaks was an effective way to slow the car
>> down.  Similar effect to a car with ABS (which I really miss in my
>> current car, my last one had ABS but the new one doesn't), but the
>> pulsing isn't rapid.
> 
> They make cars without ABS?

Yes.  My 1999 Saturn SC1 has no ABS.  :-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> a gentle (or sometimes less-than-gentle) stop. 

I once gave myself a nosebleed by borrowing my mother's car. I was used to 
driving a dinky manual without power breaks. I borrowed the behemoth car my 
parents drove, and as I coasted up to the stop sign, I stomped the clutch 
all the way to the floor, of course. Except their car had very strong power 
breaks and was an automatic with no clutch pedal. Ouch.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:42:40 -0800, Darren New wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> a gentle (or sometimes less-than-gentle) stop.
> 
> I once gave myself a nosebleed by borrowing my mother's car. I was used
> to driving a dinky manual without power breaks. I borrowed the behemoth
> car my parents drove, and as I coasted up to the stop sign, I stomped
> the clutch all the way to the floor, of course. Except their car had
> very strong power breaks and was an automatic with no clutch pedal.
> Ouch.

Ouch indeed.  Kinda the reverse of what nearly everyone I know who 
learned to drive a stick went through when not timing the clutch properly 
when shifting.  Of course, you lurch forward (usually) rather than 
backwards, so a nosebleed isn't so much of a problem as whiplash. ;-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> Ouch indeed.  Kinda the reverse of what nearly everyone I know who 
> learned to drive a stick went through when not timing the clutch properly 
> when shifting.

Oh, I did that too. This was years after I learned to drive a stick. I just 
wasn't really paying attention to the controls as such. Just, you know, drivin'.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:56:50 -0800, Darren New wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Ouch indeed.  Kinda the reverse of what nearly everyone I know who
>> learned to drive a stick went through when not timing the clutch
>> properly when shifting.
> 
> Oh, I did that too. This was years after I learned to drive a stick. I
> just wasn't really paying attention to the controls as such. Just, you
> know, drivin'.

Yep, I managed it when I tried driving a stick for the first time in 
years myself.  Takes a few tries to get the hang of it again.

At least when I drove in England, I was driving an automatic.  I don't 
know that I'd get used to shifting with the lever on the wrong side (Yes, 
Stephen, the left side is the WRONG side <g>).

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On 11 Feb 2009 15:02:24 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:


>At least when I drove in England, I was driving an automatic.  I don't 
>know that I'd get used to shifting with the lever on the wrong side (Yes, 
>Stephen, the left side is the WRONG side <g>).
>

Of course it is, it isn't the American Way ;)
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:23:40 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 11 Feb 2009 15:02:24 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
> 
>>At least when I drove in England, I was driving an automatic.  I don't
>>know that I'd get used to shifting with the lever on the wrong side
>>(Yes, Stephen, the left side is the WRONG side <g>).
>>
>>
> Of course it is, it isn't the American Way ;)

<Grumble> I shoulda expected THAT. ;-)

(Haven't you noticed my spelling?)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

> Um, no, the brakes don't do the same - if you have disc brakes, the
> brakes stop the wheels when fully engaged

Of course, because through the brakes you are applying more torque than the 
tyre/road surface can provide, so the wheel locks.

> Conversely, by downshifting, you increase the
> engine revs and the wheels are not locked - they still turn.

Only because *usually* the negative torque applied from the engine is not 
enough to overcome the grip between the tyre/road.  Try downshifting on ice 
or even on wet tarmac violently (eg 4th to 2nd at 40mph) and you will lock 
the wheels (certainly audible on wet/dry tarmac).

BTW the two effects add up, so if you are already braking hard with the 
pedal, downshifting hard at the same time will likely lock the wheels 
easily, this is why racing drivers always "blip" the throttle while braking 
and changing down, to avoid the engine braking that could lock the wheels.

> Now, when you're on dry pavement, the wheels normally don't lock because
> the car's momentum overcomes the friction on the brakes, bringing you to
> a gentle (or sometimes less-than-gentle) stop.  On ice, though, it takes
> less friction of the brake pads against the wheel to stop the wheels
> because it takes less to overcome the friction of the wheel against the
> ground.
>
> So it's easier to lock the wheels up and skid.

Yes, and the same applies to engine braking.  Next time it's wet or snowy 
try changing down (a couple of) gear(s) and letting the clutch out quickly, 
you'll hear/feel the driven wheels lock until the car slows enough for the 
wheels to grip again.  Obviously on snow and ice this happens easier.

Post a reply to this message

On 11 Feb 2009 17:52:18 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:23:40 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>
>> On 11 Feb 2009 15:02:24 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>At least when I drove in England, I was driving an automatic.  I don't
>>>know that I'd get used to shifting with the lever on the wrong side
>>>(Yes, Stephen, the left side is the WRONG side <g>).
>>>
>>>
>> Of course it is, it isn't the American Way ;)
>
><Grumble> I shoulda expected THAT. ;-)
>
>(Haven't you noticed my spelling?)
>

No, you are asking a dyslectic about spelling? :)

Anyway I am used to reading American spelling now and translate into proper
English, automatically. It is BTW one way. :)
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 10:55:08 +0100, scott wrote:

>> Um, no, the brakes don't do the same - if you have disc brakes, the
>> brakes stop the wheels when fully engaged
> 
> Of course, because through the brakes you are applying more torque than
> the tyre/road surface can provide, so the wheel locks.

Exactly my point.

>> Conversely, by downshifting, you increase the engine revs and the
>> wheels are not locked - they still turn.
> 
> Only because *usually* the negative torque applied from the engine is
> not enough to overcome the grip between the tyre/road.  Try downshifting
> on ice or even on wet tarmac violently (eg 4th to 2nd at 40mph) and you
> will lock the wheels (certainly audible on wet/dry tarmac).

I wouldn't do 4th to 2nd.  Always one gear at a time, otherwise as you 
state, you can cause the wheels to lock up.  What you're looking to do is 
*gradually* slow down, so doing things that work contrary to that goal 
like downshifting two gears are obviously going to not achieve that goal.

> BTW the two effects add up, so if you are already braking hard with the
> pedal, downshifting hard at the same time will likely lock the wheels
> easily, this is why racing drivers always "blip" the throttle while
> braking and changing down, to avoid the engine braking that could lock
> the wheels.

Well, see my above paragraph.  Sure, if you do things that are contrary 
to the goal of gradually slowing the vehicle down, you're going to wind 
up in trouble.

>> Now, when you're on dry pavement, the wheels normally don't lock
>> because the car's momentum overcomes the friction on the brakes,
>> bringing you to a gentle (or sometimes less-than-gentle) stop.  On ice,
>> though, it takes less friction of the brake pads against the wheel to
>> stop the wheels because it takes less to overcome the friction of the
>> wheel against the ground.
>>
>> So it's easier to lock the wheels up and skid.
> 
> Yes, and the same applies to engine braking.  Next time it's wet or
> snowy try changing down (a couple of) gear(s) and letting the clutch out
> quickly, you'll hear/feel the driven wheels lock until the car slows
> enough for the wheels to grip again.  Obviously on snow and ice this
> happens easier.

I've used engine braking enough that I don't need to "try it", and like I 
said, of course you can *make* it do it, but that's not the goal.  The 
goal is to use the tools available in a way that is appropriate to get a 
gradual slowdown in speed, not a sudden change that's going to send you 
out of control.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 11:27:03 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 11 Feb 2009 17:52:18 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
>>On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:23:40 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>>
>>> On 11 Feb 2009 15:02:24 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>At least when I drove in England, I was driving an automatic.  I don't
>>>>know that I'd get used to shifting with the lever on the wrong side
>>>>(Yes, Stephen, the left side is the WRONG side <g>).
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Of course it is, it isn't the American Way ;)
>>
>><Grumble> I shoulda expected THAT. ;-)
>>
>>(Haven't you noticed my spelling?)
>>
>>
> No, you are asking a dyslectic about spelling? :)

LOL, arguably, the question comes up if a dyslexic person wouldn't in 
fact describe themselves as "lysdexic"....?

> Anyway I am used to reading American spelling now and translate into
> proper English, automatically. It is BTW one way. :)

So all my automated typing of things into UK English (I usually have to 
correct for an American audience, in fact, because it is automatic for me 
99% of the time) has just gone right past?

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On 12 Feb 2009 14:37:59 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>>>(Haven't you noticed my spelling?)
>>>
>>>
>> No, you are asking a dyslectic about spelling? :)
>
>LOL, arguably, the question comes up if a dyslexic person wouldn't in 
>fact describe themselves as "lysdexic"....?
>

No.

I often type it dislyxic, I know that there is a "y" in there somewhere. I can
see that it is not right but have never been able to remember the spelling.


>> Anyway I am used to reading American spelling now and translate into
>> proper English, automatically. It is BTW one way. :)
>
>So all my automated typing of things into UK English (I usually have to 
>correct for an American audience, in fact, because it is automatic for me 
>99% of the time) has just gone right past?

Yes.

Occasionally I notice as I know that you are an American but generally I just
read it and think nothing of it. Actually since you mention it, why and what do
other Americans think of you writing like a limey?
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 21:47:11 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 12 Feb 2009 14:37:59 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
>>>>(Haven't you noticed my spelling?)
>>>>
>>>>
>>> No, you are asking a dyslectic about spelling? :)
>>
>>LOL, arguably, the question comes up if a dyslexic person wouldn't in
>>fact describe themselves as "lysdexic"....?
>>
> No.

Well, I was making a joke - if it touched too close to home, please 
accept my most sincere apologies.

> I often type it dislyxic, I know that there is a "y" in there somewhere.
> I can see that it is not right but have never been able to remember the
> spelling.

I could see that.  I often will spell something the way I think it's 
spelt and it doesn't look right.  In my newsreader, of course, it doesn't 
look right because of the squiggly red line underneath the word.

>>> Anyway I am used to reading American spelling now and translate into
>>> proper English, automatically. It is BTW one way. :)
>>
>>So all my automated typing of things into UK English (I usually have to
>>correct for an American audience, in fact, because it is automatic for
>>me 99% of the time) has just gone right past?
> 
> Yes.

I guess since it's normal spelling for you, it would - that makes sense.
 
> Occasionally I notice as I know that you are an American but generally I
> just read it and think nothing of it. Actually since you mention it, why
> and what do other Americans think of you writing like a limey?

I occasionally get grief from people about it, or light joking about it.  
One of my coworkers noticed it a few years ago and asked me about it - 
not because he was anything other than curious, though - his background 
is linguistics.

I don't know why I started using Queen's English spellings, though - just 
became a habit.  Possibly because I spent a lot of my time writing to 
brits. :-)

Jim

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On 12 Feb 2009 17:43:38 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 21:47:11 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>
>> On 12 Feb 2009 14:37:59 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> 
>>>>>(Haven't you noticed my spelling?)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> No, you are asking a dyslectic about spelling? :)
>>>
>>>LOL, arguably, the question comes up if a dyslexic person wouldn't in
>>>fact describe themselves as "lysdexic"....?
>>>
>> No.
>
>Well, I was making a joke - if it touched too close to home, please 
>accept my most sincere apologies.
>

No you didn't, I'm long past caring what people think 'cause I can't spell or
read big books. :)
I do get pissed off with people who don't take the trouble to check their
spelling especially when they know they can't spell. I even use "Word" when I'm
writing a hand written note or letter. But then I'm from a generation where it
was considered important U no wat I meen?

>> I often type it dislyxic, I know that there is a "y" in there somewhere.
>> I can see that it is not right but have never been able to remember the
>> spelling.
>
>I could see that.  I often will spell something the way I think it's 
>spelt and it doesn't look right.  In my newsreader, of course, it doesn't 
>look right because of the squiggly red line underneath the word.
>

I've switched that feature off in my newsreader. It would drive me mad seeing
other posts :lol:

>>>> Anyway I am used to reading American spelling now and translate into
>>>> proper English, automatically. It is BTW one way. :)
>>>
>>>So all my automated typing of things into UK English (I usually have to
>>>correct for an American audience, in fact, because it is automatic for
>>>me 99% of the time) has just gone right past?
>> 
>> Yes.
>
>I guess since it's normal spelling for you, it would - that makes sense.
> 

It does :)


>I occasionally get grief from people about it, or light joking about it.  
>One of my coworkers noticed it a few years ago and asked me about it - 
>not because he was anything other than curious, though - his background 
>is linguistics.
>
>I don't know why I started using Queen's English spellings, though - just 
>became a habit.  Possibly because I spent a lot of my time writing to 
>brits. :-)
>

If you can't beet them, join them ;)

Did you know that the term "Brit" used to be offensive? It was used by the Irish
republicans during the troubles and was not complimentary ;) Nowadays the word
is in favour.
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
> Um, no, the brakes don't do the same - if you have disc brakes, the 
> brakes stop the wheels when fully engaged (I don't have drum brakes so I 
> can't comment on those).  

Yes, also on drum brakes. But why on earth would you engage brakes
fully, if you're not trying to stop the car as quickly as possible?

> Conversely, by downshifting, you increase the 
> engine revs and the wheels are not locked - they still turn.

Yes, if you'll do it carefully enough (see the similarity to brakes?)
:). It's possibly a bit easier to be carefully enough, since the maximum
braking power is very limited.

And yes, I actually managed to found one +point to engine braking - with
FWD car it practically ever won't spin the car, since rear wheels won't
lock.

> Now, when you're on dry pavement, the wheels normally don't lock because 
> the car's momentum overcomes the friction on the brakes, bringing you to 
> a gentle (or sometimes less-than-gentle) stop.  

Either you're having really bad brakes (repair them!) or you're not
anymore engaging them fully, when driving on dry pavement (so why to do
it on ice?).

> On ice, though, it takes 
> less friction of the brake pads against the wheel to stop the wheels 
> because it takes less to overcome the friction of the wheel against the 
> ground.

Yes, the scale is smaller, but it's still there.

> So it's easier to lock the wheels up and skid.

Definedly.

> Jim

-Aero

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
> I wouldn't do 4th to 2nd.  Always one gear at a time, otherwise as you 
> state, you can cause the wheels to lock up.  

I do that (downshifting 2-3 gears at once) every day while slowing down
from the motorway - either 6-5-3-2, 6-4-2 or 6-3-2, depending on place,
traffic etc.

And I've managed to lock driving wheels up even without downshifting, by
just lifting the gas pedal (icy, Volvo 740 and Nokian HKPL4 (studded and
very good winter tires)). Pressing clutch to get traction back and using
brakes (=braking with front wheels) were the savior of that situation.

But yes, usually with FWD car it's pretty hard to mess up with engine
braking, we certainly agree on that.

> Jim

-Aero

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scott wrote:
> 
> Maybe in some cars with sensitive brake pedals it's easier to control
> the small amount of negative acceleration through the
> clutch/gears/accelerator than through the brake pedal?
> 

Language barrier again :), I'd think sensitive brake pedal as the ones
that give you the most information. But yes, that's true. Top on that,
engine braking is more economical than using the brakes.

-Aero

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
> It depends on the road conditions.  For example, this morning as I turned 
> left into the parking lot at the office, the car's momentum overcame the 
> friction of the tires on the ice, and I ended up not turning as per usual 
> but sliding instead.  In that case, pumping the breaks was an effective 
> way to slow the car down.  Similar effect to a car with ABS (which I 
> really miss in my current car, my last one had ABS but the new one 
> doesn't), but the pulsing isn't rapid.
> 
> If a car has ABS, you can get away with hitting the breaks, because the 
> ABS system will prevent the wheels from locking up.
> 

And if you'd had ESP, it should've braked for you (with just left
wheels, to make the car turn) ;). For some reason (dunno why) Audi's
(tested with B7 and B8 A4's) don't seem to do this - if you turn the
wheels too quickly on ice and slide forwards without turning, the ESP
won't realize it and does nothing.

> Jim


-Aero

Post a reply to this message

> And if you'd had ESP, it should've braked for you (with just left
> wheels, to make the car turn) ;).

It's funny when my car does this, if you leave all the ESP stuff turned on 
and then try to fishtail the car after approx 0.1 seconds of sliding you can 
feel it pull on the brake on just one wheel that gets the car back in shape.

> For some reason (dunno why) Audi's
> (tested with B7 and B8 A4's) don't seem to do this - if you turn the
> wheels too quickly on ice and slide forwards without turning, the ESP
> won't realize it and does nothing.

My changing-down-on-ice experiments were exactly to see if the ESP system 
could cope with it, but alas it couldn't and I just slid with a wiggly back 
end until it gripped again.  I guess the ESP programmers didn't include a 
function to blip the throttle if it detected engine braking was locking the 
rear wheels :-)

Post a reply to this message

> Top on that,
> engine braking is more economical than using the brakes.

Depends how expensive it is to replace the clutch :-)

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
> 
> It's funny when my car does this, if you leave all the ESP stuff turned
> on and then try to fishtail the car after approx 0.1 seconds of sliding
> you can feel it pull on the brake on just one wheel that gets the car
> back in shape.

Ahh, Audi takes more time, it lets the slide start but then crunches the
car back to line.

BMW?

> My changing-down-on-ice experiments were exactly to see if the ESP
> system could cope with it, but alas it couldn't and I just slid with a
> wiggly back end until it gripped again.  I guess the ESP programmers
> didn't include a function to blip the throttle if it detected engine
> braking was locking the rear wheels :-)

I don't even need to brake with the engine - if I have too much speed
for a corner, keep the throttle steady and turn quickly, car goes
straight ahead and ESP does nothing.

-Aero

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>> Top on that,
>> engine braking is more economical than using the brakes.
> 
> Depends how expensive it is to replace the clutch :-)
> 

Ummm.. no, bad clutch-usage ain't dependent on engine braking. :-)

-Aero

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:53:30 +0200, Eero Ahonen wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> 
>> Um, no, the brakes don't do the same - if you have disc brakes, the
>> brakes stop the wheels when fully engaged (I don't have drum brakes so
>> I can't comment on those).
> 
> Yes, also on drum brakes. But why on earth would you engage brakes
> fully, if you're not trying to stop the car as quickly as possible?

Because slamming on the brakes on ice doesn't have that effect.

>> Conversely, by downshifting, you increase the engine revs and the
>> wheels are not locked - they still turn.
> 
> Yes, if you'll do it carefully enough (see the similarity to brakes?)
> :). It's possibly a bit easier to be carefully enough, since the maximum
> braking power is very limited.

Yes, but that's the reason to do that.  Similarly, for going down steep 
inclines, using the engine to slow the vehicle down rather than the 
brakes keeps you from burning the brakes out.

> And yes, I actually managed to found one +point to engine braking - with
> FWD car it practically ever won't spin the car, since rear wheels won't
> lock.

Yep, that's another big advantage.

>> Now, when you're on dry pavement, the wheels normally don't lock
>> because the car's momentum overcomes the friction on the brakes,
>> bringing you to a gentle (or sometimes less-than-gentle) stop.
> 
> Either you're having really bad brakes (repair them!) or you're not
> anymore engaging them fully, when driving on dry pavement (so why to do
> it on ice?).

I don't do it on ice.  You can (and I can) lock the wheels driving at 50 
MPH with the brakes, but that also is likely to cause an uncontrollable 
skid - though a shorter one - and often that is more desirable than 
running into whatever it is that you're braking hard to avoid.

>> On ice, though, it takes
>> less friction of the brake pads against the wheel to stop the wheels
>> because it takes less to overcome the friction of the wheel against the
>> ground.
> 
> Yes, the scale is smaller, but it's still there.

Sure, I wouldn't disagree with that.

Jim

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On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 14:01:18 +0200, Eero Ahonen wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> 
>> I wouldn't do 4th to 2nd.  Always one gear at a time, otherwise as you
>> state, you can cause the wheels to lock up.
> 
> I do that (downshifting 2-3 gears at once) every day while slowing down
> from the motorway - either 6-5-3-2, 6-4-2 or 6-3-2, depending on place,
> traffic etc.

Ah, I've never driven a 6-speed vehicle.  From higher gears it would 
probably be less of an issue, but dropping from 3 to 1 can redline the 
engine, at least IME.

> And I've managed to lock driving wheels up even without downshifting, by
> just lifting the gas pedal (icy, Volvo 740 and Nokian HKPL4 (studded and
> very good winter tires)). Pressing clutch to get traction back and using
> brakes (=braking with front wheels) were the savior of that situation.

Yes, effective use of the clutch in that type of situation would also 
help - since it would engage/disengage the engine from the drivetrain.

> But yes, usually with FWD car it's pretty hard to mess up with engine
> braking, we certainly agree on that.

:-)

Jim

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