On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 10:55:08 +0100, scott wrote:

>> Um, no, the brakes don't do the same - if you have disc brakes, the
>> brakes stop the wheels when fully engaged
> 
> Of course, because through the brakes you are applying more torque than
> the tyre/road surface can provide, so the wheel locks.

Exactly my point.

>> Conversely, by downshifting, you increase the engine revs and the
>> wheels are not locked - they still turn.
> 
> Only because *usually* the negative torque applied from the engine is
> not enough to overcome the grip between the tyre/road.  Try downshifting
> on ice or even on wet tarmac violently (eg 4th to 2nd at 40mph) and you
> will lock the wheels (certainly audible on wet/dry tarmac).

I wouldn't do 4th to 2nd.  Always one gear at a time, otherwise as you 
state, you can cause the wheels to lock up.  What you're looking to do is 
*gradually* slow down, so doing things that work contrary to that goal 
like downshifting two gears are obviously going to not achieve that goal.

> BTW the two effects add up, so if you are already braking hard with the
> pedal, downshifting hard at the same time will likely lock the wheels
> easily, this is why racing drivers always "blip" the throttle while
> braking and changing down, to avoid the engine braking that could lock
> the wheels.

Well, see my above paragraph.  Sure, if you do things that are contrary 
to the goal of gradually slowing the vehicle down, you're going to wind 
up in trouble.

>> Now, when you're on dry pavement, the wheels normally don't lock
>> because the car's momentum overcomes the friction on the brakes,
>> bringing you to a gentle (or sometimes less-than-gentle) stop.  On ice,
>> though, it takes less friction of the brake pads against the wheel to
>> stop the wheels because it takes less to overcome the friction of the
>> wheel against the ground.
>>
>> So it's easier to lock the wheels up and skid.
> 
> Yes, and the same applies to engine braking.  Next time it's wet or
> snowy try changing down (a couple of) gear(s) and letting the clutch out
> quickly, you'll hear/feel the driven wheels lock until the car slows
> enough for the wheels to grip again.  Obviously on snow and ice this
> happens easier.

I've used engine braking enough that I don't need to "try it", and like I 
said, of course you can *make* it do it, but that's not the goal.  The 
goal is to use the tools available in a way that is appropriate to get a 
gradual slowdown in speed, not a sudden change that's going to send you 
out of control.

Jim

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On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 11:27:03 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 11 Feb 2009 17:52:18 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
>>On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:23:40 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>>
>>> On 11 Feb 2009 15:02:24 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>At least when I drove in England, I was driving an automatic.  I don't
>>>>know that I'd get used to shifting with the lever on the wrong side
>>>>(Yes, Stephen, the left side is the WRONG side <g>).
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Of course it is, it isn't the American Way ;)
>>
>><Grumble> I shoulda expected THAT. ;-)
>>
>>(Haven't you noticed my spelling?)
>>
>>
> No, you are asking a dyslectic about spelling? :)

LOL, arguably, the question comes up if a dyslexic person wouldn't in 
fact describe themselves as "lysdexic"....?

> Anyway I am used to reading American spelling now and translate into
> proper English, automatically. It is BTW one way. :)

So all my automated typing of things into UK English (I usually have to 
correct for an American audience, in fact, because it is automatic for me 
99% of the time) has just gone right past?

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On 12 Feb 2009 14:37:59 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>>>(Haven't you noticed my spelling?)
>>>
>>>
>> No, you are asking a dyslectic about spelling? :)
>
>LOL, arguably, the question comes up if a dyslexic person wouldn't in 
>fact describe themselves as "lysdexic"....?
>

No.

I often type it dislyxic, I know that there is a "y" in there somewhere. I can
see that it is not right but have never been able to remember the spelling.


>> Anyway I am used to reading American spelling now and translate into
>> proper English, automatically. It is BTW one way. :)
>
>So all my automated typing of things into UK English (I usually have to 
>correct for an American audience, in fact, because it is automatic for me 
>99% of the time) has just gone right past?

Yes.

Occasionally I notice as I know that you are an American but generally I just
read it and think nothing of it. Actually since you mention it, why and what do
other Americans think of you writing like a limey?
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 21:47:11 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 12 Feb 2009 14:37:59 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
>>>>(Haven't you noticed my spelling?)
>>>>
>>>>
>>> No, you are asking a dyslectic about spelling? :)
>>
>>LOL, arguably, the question comes up if a dyslexic person wouldn't in
>>fact describe themselves as "lysdexic"....?
>>
> No.

Well, I was making a joke - if it touched too close to home, please 
accept my most sincere apologies.

> I often type it dislyxic, I know that there is a "y" in there somewhere.
> I can see that it is not right but have never been able to remember the
> spelling.

I could see that.  I often will spell something the way I think it's 
spelt and it doesn't look right.  In my newsreader, of course, it doesn't 
look right because of the squiggly red line underneath the word.

>>> Anyway I am used to reading American spelling now and translate into
>>> proper English, automatically. It is BTW one way. :)
>>
>>So all my automated typing of things into UK English (I usually have to
>>correct for an American audience, in fact, because it is automatic for
>>me 99% of the time) has just gone right past?
> 
> Yes.

I guess since it's normal spelling for you, it would - that makes sense.
 
> Occasionally I notice as I know that you are an American but generally I
> just read it and think nothing of it. Actually since you mention it, why
> and what do other Americans think of you writing like a limey?

I occasionally get grief from people about it, or light joking about it.  
One of my coworkers noticed it a few years ago and asked me about it - 
not because he was anything other than curious, though - his background 
is linguistics.

I don't know why I started using Queen's English spellings, though - just 
became a habit.  Possibly because I spent a lot of my time writing to 
brits. :-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On 12 Feb 2009 17:43:38 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 21:47:11 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>
>> On 12 Feb 2009 14:37:59 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> 
>>>>>(Haven't you noticed my spelling?)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> No, you are asking a dyslectic about spelling? :)
>>>
>>>LOL, arguably, the question comes up if a dyslexic person wouldn't in
>>>fact describe themselves as "lysdexic"....?
>>>
>> No.
>
>Well, I was making a joke - if it touched too close to home, please 
>accept my most sincere apologies.
>

No you didn't, I'm long past caring what people think 'cause I can't spell or
read big books. :)
I do get pissed off with people who don't take the trouble to check their
spelling especially when they know they can't spell. I even use "Word" when I'm
writing a hand written note or letter. But then I'm from a generation where it
was considered important U no wat I meen?

>> I often type it dislyxic, I know that there is a "y" in there somewhere.
>> I can see that it is not right but have never been able to remember the
>> spelling.
>
>I could see that.  I often will spell something the way I think it's 
>spelt and it doesn't look right.  In my newsreader, of course, it doesn't 
>look right because of the squiggly red line underneath the word.
>

I've switched that feature off in my newsreader. It would drive me mad seeing
other posts :lol:

>>>> Anyway I am used to reading American spelling now and translate into
>>>> proper English, automatically. It is BTW one way. :)
>>>
>>>So all my automated typing of things into UK English (I usually have to
>>>correct for an American audience, in fact, because it is automatic for
>>>me 99% of the time) has just gone right past?
>> 
>> Yes.
>
>I guess since it's normal spelling for you, it would - that makes sense.
> 

It does :)


>I occasionally get grief from people about it, or light joking about it.  
>One of my coworkers noticed it a few years ago and asked me about it - 
>not because he was anything other than curious, though - his background 
>is linguistics.
>
>I don't know why I started using Queen's English spellings, though - just 
>became a habit.  Possibly because I spent a lot of my time writing to 
>brits. :-)
>

If you can't beet them, join them ;)

Did you know that the term "Brit" used to be offensive? It was used by the Irish
republicans during the troubles and was not complimentary ;) Nowadays the word
is in favour.
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
> Um, no, the brakes don't do the same - if you have disc brakes, the 
> brakes stop the wheels when fully engaged (I don't have drum brakes so I 
> can't comment on those).  

Yes, also on drum brakes. But why on earth would you engage brakes
fully, if you're not trying to stop the car as quickly as possible?

> Conversely, by downshifting, you increase the 
> engine revs and the wheels are not locked - they still turn.

Yes, if you'll do it carefully enough (see the similarity to brakes?)
:). It's possibly a bit easier to be carefully enough, since the maximum
braking power is very limited.

And yes, I actually managed to found one +point to engine braking - with
FWD car it practically ever won't spin the car, since rear wheels won't
lock.

> Now, when you're on dry pavement, the wheels normally don't lock because 
> the car's momentum overcomes the friction on the brakes, bringing you to 
> a gentle (or sometimes less-than-gentle) stop.  

Either you're having really bad brakes (repair them!) or you're not
anymore engaging them fully, when driving on dry pavement (so why to do
it on ice?).

> On ice, though, it takes 
> less friction of the brake pads against the wheel to stop the wheels 
> because it takes less to overcome the friction of the wheel against the 
> ground.

Yes, the scale is smaller, but it's still there.

> So it's easier to lock the wheels up and skid.

Definedly.

> Jim

-Aero

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
> I wouldn't do 4th to 2nd.  Always one gear at a time, otherwise as you 
> state, you can cause the wheels to lock up.  

I do that (downshifting 2-3 gears at once) every day while slowing down
from the motorway - either 6-5-3-2, 6-4-2 or 6-3-2, depending on place,
traffic etc.

And I've managed to lock driving wheels up even without downshifting, by
just lifting the gas pedal (icy, Volvo 740 and Nokian HKPL4 (studded and
very good winter tires)). Pressing clutch to get traction back and using
brakes (=braking with front wheels) were the savior of that situation.

But yes, usually with FWD car it's pretty hard to mess up with engine
braking, we certainly agree on that.

> Jim

-Aero

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
> 
> Maybe in some cars with sensitive brake pedals it's easier to control
> the small amount of negative acceleration through the
> clutch/gears/accelerator than through the brake pedal?
> 

Language barrier again :), I'd think sensitive brake pedal as the ones
that give you the most information. But yes, that's true. Top on that,
engine braking is more economical than using the brakes.

-Aero

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
> It depends on the road conditions.  For example, this morning as I turned 
> left into the parking lot at the office, the car's momentum overcame the 
> friction of the tires on the ice, and I ended up not turning as per usual 
> but sliding instead.  In that case, pumping the breaks was an effective 
> way to slow the car down.  Similar effect to a car with ABS (which I 
> really miss in my current car, my last one had ABS but the new one 
> doesn't), but the pulsing isn't rapid.
> 
> If a car has ABS, you can get away with hitting the breaks, because the 
> ABS system will prevent the wheels from locking up.
> 

And if you'd had ESP, it should've braked for you (with just left
wheels, to make the car turn) ;). For some reason (dunno why) Audi's
(tested with B7 and B8 A4's) don't seem to do this - if you turn the
wheels too quickly on ice and slide forwards without turning, the ESP
won't realize it and does nothing.

> Jim


-Aero

Post a reply to this message

> And if you'd had ESP, it should've braked for you (with just left
> wheels, to make the car turn) ;).

It's funny when my car does this, if you leave all the ESP stuff turned on 
and then try to fishtail the car after approx 0.1 seconds of sliding you can 
feel it pull on the brake on just one wheel that gets the car back in shape.

> For some reason (dunno why) Audi's
> (tested with B7 and B8 A4's) don't seem to do this - if you turn the
> wheels too quickly on ice and slide forwards without turning, the ESP
> won't realize it and does nothing.

My changing-down-on-ice experiments were exactly to see if the ESP system 
could cope with it, but alas it couldn't and I just slid with a wiggly back 
end until it gripped again.  I guess the ESP programmers didn't include a 
function to blip the throttle if it detected engine braking was locking the 
rear wheels :-)

Post a reply to this message

> Top on that,
> engine braking is more economical than using the brakes.

Depends how expensive it is to replace the clutch :-)

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
> 
> It's funny when my car does this, if you leave all the ESP stuff turned
> on and then try to fishtail the car after approx 0.1 seconds of sliding
> you can feel it pull on the brake on just one wheel that gets the car
> back in shape.

Ahh, Audi takes more time, it lets the slide start but then crunches the
car back to line.

BMW?

> My changing-down-on-ice experiments were exactly to see if the ESP
> system could cope with it, but alas it couldn't and I just slid with a
> wiggly back end until it gripped again.  I guess the ESP programmers
> didn't include a function to blip the throttle if it detected engine
> braking was locking the rear wheels :-)

I don't even need to brake with the engine - if I have too much speed
for a corner, keep the throttle steady and turn quickly, car goes
straight ahead and ESP does nothing.

-Aero

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>> Top on that,
>> engine braking is more economical than using the brakes.
> 
> Depends how expensive it is to replace the clutch :-)
> 

Ummm.. no, bad clutch-usage ain't dependent on engine braking. :-)

-Aero

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:53:30 +0200, Eero Ahonen wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> 
>> Um, no, the brakes don't do the same - if you have disc brakes, the
>> brakes stop the wheels when fully engaged (I don't have drum brakes so
>> I can't comment on those).
> 
> Yes, also on drum brakes. But why on earth would you engage brakes
> fully, if you're not trying to stop the car as quickly as possible?

Because slamming on the brakes on ice doesn't have that effect.

>> Conversely, by downshifting, you increase the engine revs and the
>> wheels are not locked - they still turn.
> 
> Yes, if you'll do it carefully enough (see the similarity to brakes?)
> :). It's possibly a bit easier to be carefully enough, since the maximum
> braking power is very limited.

Yes, but that's the reason to do that.  Similarly, for going down steep 
inclines, using the engine to slow the vehicle down rather than the 
brakes keeps you from burning the brakes out.

> And yes, I actually managed to found one +point to engine braking - with
> FWD car it practically ever won't spin the car, since rear wheels won't
> lock.

Yep, that's another big advantage.

>> Now, when you're on dry pavement, the wheels normally don't lock
>> because the car's momentum overcomes the friction on the brakes,
>> bringing you to a gentle (or sometimes less-than-gentle) stop.
> 
> Either you're having really bad brakes (repair them!) or you're not
> anymore engaging them fully, when driving on dry pavement (so why to do
> it on ice?).

I don't do it on ice.  You can (and I can) lock the wheels driving at 50 
MPH with the brakes, but that also is likely to cause an uncontrollable 
skid - though a shorter one - and often that is more desirable than 
running into whatever it is that you're braking hard to avoid.

>> On ice, though, it takes
>> less friction of the brake pads against the wheel to stop the wheels
>> because it takes less to overcome the friction of the wheel against the
>> ground.
> 
> Yes, the scale is smaller, but it's still there.

Sure, I wouldn't disagree with that.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 14:01:18 +0200, Eero Ahonen wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> 
>> I wouldn't do 4th to 2nd.  Always one gear at a time, otherwise as you
>> state, you can cause the wheels to lock up.
> 
> I do that (downshifting 2-3 gears at once) every day while slowing down
> from the motorway - either 6-5-3-2, 6-4-2 or 6-3-2, depending on place,
> traffic etc.

Ah, I've never driven a 6-speed vehicle.  From higher gears it would 
probably be less of an issue, but dropping from 3 to 1 can redline the 
engine, at least IME.

> And I've managed to lock driving wheels up even without downshifting, by
> just lifting the gas pedal (icy, Volvo 740 and Nokian HKPL4 (studded and
> very good winter tires)). Pressing clutch to get traction back and using
> brakes (=braking with front wheels) were the savior of that situation.

Yes, effective use of the clutch in that type of situation would also 
help - since it would engage/disengage the engine from the drivetrain.

> But yes, usually with FWD car it's pretty hard to mess up with engine
> braking, we certainly agree on that.

:-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
> braking was locking the rear wheels :-)

Funky enough, the cruise control on my Camry will downshift the transmission 
going downhill to keep the speed in range.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 08:24:33 +0000, Stephen wrote:

>>>>LOL, arguably, the question comes up if a dyslexic person wouldn't in
>>>>fact describe themselves as "lysdexic"....?
>>>>
>>> No.
>>
>>Well, I was making a joke - if it touched too close to home, please
>>accept my most sincere apologies.
>>
> No you didn't, I'm long past caring what people think 'cause I can't
> spell or read big books. :)

Good man. :-)  I didn't think I'd caused offense, but with a one-word 
answer it's hard to tell.

> I do get pissed off with people who don't take the trouble to check
> their spelling especially when they know they can't spell. I even use
> "Word" when I'm writing a hand written note or letter. But then I'm from
> a generation where it was considered important U no wat I meen?

Same here, though I don't often write anything by hand anymore.  I need 
to have a doctor check out my hand (mentioned a few months ago up here) 
because I get really bad cramps if I use a pen too long.  Signing my name 
and dating a document are about the extent of what I write any more with 
a pen.

>>I could see that.  I often will spell something the way I think it's
>>spelt and it doesn't look right.  In my newsreader, of course, it
>>doesn't look right because of the squiggly red line underneath the word.
>>
> I've switched that feature off in my newsreader. It would drive me mad
> seeing other posts :lol:

Ah, see, in my newsreader, it's only on in the message composition 
window. :-)

>>I occasionally get grief from people about it, or light joking about it.
>>One of my coworkers noticed it a few years ago and asked me about it -
>>not because he was anything other than curious, though - his background
>>is linguistics.
>>
>>I don't know why I started using Queen's English spellings, though -
>>just became a habit.  Possibly because I spent a lot of my time writing
>>to brits. :-)
>>
> If you can't beet them, join them ;)

LOL.  Yeah, I guess that might be part of it.

> Did you know that the term "Brit" used to be offensive? It was used by
> the Irish republicans during the troubles and was not complimentary ;)
> Nowadays the word is in favour.

I didn't know that - thanks!  Another day with something learned, another 
day not wasted. :-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 14:05:39 +0200, Eero Ahonen wrote:

> And if you'd had ESP, it should've braked for you (with just left
> wheels, to make the car turn) . For some reason (dunno why) Audi's
> (tested with B7 and B8 A4's) don't seem to do this - if you turn the
> wheels too quickly on ice and slide forwards without turning, the ESP
> won't realize it and does nothing.

LOL, now there's something that would be fun - a car that is driven 
through a neural interface.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On 13 Feb 2009 13:04:40 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>Good man. :-)  I didn't think I'd caused offense, but with a one-word 
>answer it's hard to tell.
>

True ;)

>> I do get pissed off with people who don't take the trouble to check
>> their spelling especially when they know they can't spell. I even use
>> "Word" when I'm writing a hand written note or letter. But then I'm from
>> a generation where it was considered important U no wat I meen?
>
>Same here, though I don't often write anything by hand anymore.  I need 
>to have a doctor check out my hand (mentioned a few months ago up here) 
>because I get really bad cramps if I use a pen too long.  Signing my name 
>and dating a document are about the extent of what I write any more with 
>a pen.
>

I use a pencil and pad if I'm taking notes in meetings or at home. It changes
the tendons I use and keeps RSI away.


>> I've switched that feature off in my newsreader. It would drive me mad
>> seeing other posts :lol:
>
>Ah, see, in my newsreader, it's only on in the message composition 
>window. :-)
>

It might be the same in mine but I'm a habit of creature, whatever :)

>> Did you know that the term "Brit" used to be offensive? It was used by
>> the Irish republicans during the troubles and was not complimentary ;)
>> Nowadays the word is in favour.
>
>I didn't know that - thanks!  Another day with something learned, another 
>day not wasted. :-)
>

We are here to serve :)
 
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 21:12:23 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 13 Feb 2009 13:04:40 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
>>Good man. :-)  I didn't think I'd caused offense, but with a one-word
>>answer it's hard to tell.
>>
> True ;)

Far easier with the smiley. ;-)

>>Same here, though I don't often write anything by hand anymore.  I need
>>to have a doctor check out my hand (mentioned a few months ago up here)
>>because I get really bad cramps if I use a pen too long.  Signing my
>>name and dating a document are about the extent of what I write any more
>>with a pen.
>>
> I use a pencil and pad if I'm taking notes in meetings or at home. It
> changes the tendons I use and keeps RSI away.

I wonder if mine is some sort of RSI; I type a *lot*, and I type quite 
fast as well (I've been clocked at 90-120 WPM when I'm "in a groove") - 
my coworkers are still surprised at how quickly I can type.

Comes from back in my days programming - in my head, I'd be a few lines 
ahead of where my fingers were typing and my speed increased in order to 
keep up with my brain.  Strangely, though, I don't do so well if I have 
to type numbers with text.  I can do 10-key very quickly as well, but 
mixing alpha and numeric slows me down considerably.

>>> I've switched that feature off in my newsreader. It would drive me mad
>>> seeing other posts :lol:
>>
>>Ah, see, in my newsreader, it's only on in the message composition
>>window. :-)
>>
> It might be the same in mine but I'm a habit of creature, whatever :)

LOL

>>> Did you know that the term "Brit" used to be offensive? It was used by
>>> the Irish republicans during the troubles and was not complimentary ;)
>>> Nowadays the word is in favour.
>>
>>I didn't know that - thanks!  Another day with something learned,
>>another day not wasted. :-)
>>
> We are here to serve :)

I'll take a two-piece fish & chips meal, then, served in the traditional 
way. ;-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On 13 Feb 2009 16:20:53 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 21:12:23 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>
>> On 13 Feb 2009 13:04:40 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> 
>>>Good man. :-)  I didn't think I'd caused offense, but with a one-word
>>>answer it's hard to tell.
>>>
>> True ;)
>
>Far easier with the smiley. ;-)
>

More effect without :)

>
>I wonder if mine is some sort of RSI; I type a *lot*, and I type quite 
>fast as well (I've been clocked at 90-120 WPM when I'm "in a groove") - 
>my coworkers are still surprised at how quickly I can type.
>

Try aspirin or ibuprofen or a graphics tablet. I don't get problems with typing
but with mouse work.

>Comes from back in my days programming - in my head, I'd be a few lines 
>ahead of where my fingers were typing and my speed increased in order to 
>keep up with my brain.  Strangely, though, I don't do so well if I have 
>to type numbers with text.  I can do 10-key very quickly as well, but 
>mixing alpha and numeric slows me down considerably.
>

I learned to type on a TTY so I am slow.


>> We are here to serve :)
>
>I'll take a two-piece fish & chips meal, then, served in the traditional 
>way. ;-)
>

In England that is just Fish and chips, wrapped or open. In Scotland it is a
fish supper and if it is without chips it is a single fish and you get two.
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
> Ah, I've never driven a 6-speed vehicle.  From higher gears it would 
> probably be less of an issue, 

It's not that different from a 5-speeder, with which I'd probably go
5-4-2 or 5-3-2.

OTOH with my own car (that summertoy I wrecked, Saab 9000) I've done
1-2-5 a lot when accelerating to 80km/h.

> but dropping from 3 to 1 can redline the 
> engine, at least IME.

At least usually yes, at least if you're not running on very low revs on 3.

> Yes, effective use of the clutch in that type of situation would also 
> help - since it would engage/disengage the engine from the drivetrain.

It would've been wise thing to at first stage, while then I wouldn't had
to get traction back nor wait for it, 'cause I wouldn't had lost it at
first place.


> Jim

-Aero

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 00:32:11 +0200, Eero Ahonen wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> 
>> Ah, I've never driven a 6-speed vehicle.  From higher gears it would
>> probably be less of an issue,
> 
> It's not that different from a 5-speeder, with which I'd probably go
> 5-4-2 or 5-3-2.
> 
> OTOH with my own car (that summertoy I wrecked, Saab 9000) I've done
> 1-2-5 a lot when accelerating to 80km/h.

Most of my experience was with a 3-speed.  My automatic (which I drive 
now) is also a 3-speed.

On the manual, I would go from 1st to 3rd - going up gears is a bit 
different than going down, going down you drive the engine revs up 
dramatically.

>> but dropping from 3 to 1 can redline the engine, at least IME.
> 
> At least usually yes, at least if you're not running on very low revs on
> 3.
> 
>> Yes, effective use of the clutch in that type of situation would also
>> help - since it would engage/disengage the engine from the drivetrain.
> 
> It would've been wise thing to at first stage, while then I wouldn't had
> to get traction back nor wait for it, 'cause I wouldn't had lost it at
> first place.

Yeah, if I drove a manual now, the clutch would be another tool I'd use.  
In an automatic, you can shift to neutral with similar effect, but with a 
lot less control.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:53:30 +0200, Eero Ahonen wrote:
> 
>> Yes, also on drum brakes. But why on earth would you engage brakes
>> fully, if you're not trying to stop the car as quickly as possible?
> 
> Because slamming on the brakes on ice doesn't have that effect.

True, but the optimal braking with almost locked tires is pretty hard
thing to do - usually it's much wiser to just hit the brakes fully, if
you're trying to stop the car ASAP for some reason.

> Yes, but that's the reason to do that.  Similarly, for going down steep 
> inclines, using the engine to slow the vehicle down rather than the 
> brakes keeps you from burning the brakes out.

Yes, engine braking is certainly more economical than using brakes (it
saves both brakes and fuel).

> I don't do it on ice.  You can (and I can) lock the wheels driving at 50 
> MPH with the brakes, but that also is likely to cause an uncontrollable 
> skid - though a shorter one - and often that is more desirable than 
> running into whatever it is that you're braking hard to avoid.

Yep, and the same laws work also on ice and on snow, braking distances
just grow even exponentially.

> Jim

-Aero

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 22:01:42 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 13 Feb 2009 16:20:53 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
>>On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 21:12:23 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>>
>>> On 13 Feb 2009 13:04:40 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>Good man. :-)  I didn't think I'd caused offense, but with a one-word
>>>>answer it's hard to tell.
>>>>
>>> True ;)
>>
>>Far easier with the smiley. ;-)
>>
> More effect without :)

Well, certainly more conversation. ;-)

>>I wonder if mine is some sort of RSI; I type a *lot*, and I type quite
>>fast as well (I've been clocked at 90-120 WPM when I'm "in a groove") -
>>my coworkers are still surprised at how quickly I can type.
>>
> Try aspirin or ibuprofen or a graphics tablet. I don't get problems with
> typing but with mouse work.

I do take ibuprofen (usually for headaches, though).  I use a touchpad 
rather than a mouse - I find it very difficult to use a mouse because 
I've used touchpads for so long.

>>Comes from back in my days programming - in my head, I'd be a few lines
>>ahead of where my fingers were typing and my speed increased in order to
>>keep up with my brain.  Strangely, though, I don't do so well if I have
>>to type numbers with text.  I can do 10-key very quickly as well, but
>>mixing alpha and numeric slows me down considerably.
>>
>>
> I learned to type on a TTY so I am slow.

LOL!

>>> We are here to serve :)
>>
>>I'll take a two-piece fish & chips meal, then, served in the traditional
>>way. ;-)
>>
>>
> In England that is just Fish and chips, wrapped or open. In Scotland it
> is a fish supper and if it is without chips it is a single fish and you
> get two.

Aye, then 'tis the supper for me. ;-)

(Our local chip shop shut some months ago, no good alternatives around 
now. :-( )

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
> LOL, now there's something that would be fun - a car that is driven 
> through a neural interface.

Hm, I don't really get that. Given that the ESP know the direction the
car is going (after all, it certainly does realize if the car's going
sideways) and it should be trivial to know the steering wheel position,
ESP should be easily able to realize that the car isn't turning like the
driver means. And it does realize that, if I'll just push the throttle
to the floor and turns the car with brakes, but doesn't if I keep the
throttle steady.

> Jim

-Aero

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 00:40:06 +0200, Eero Ahonen wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:53:30 +0200, Eero Ahonen wrote:
>> 
>>> Yes, also on drum brakes. But why on earth would you engage brakes
>>> fully, if you're not trying to stop the car as quickly as possible?
>> 
>> Because slamming on the brakes on ice doesn't have that effect.
> 
> True, but the optimal braking with almost locked tires is pretty hard
> thing to do - usually it's much wiser to just hit the brakes fully, if
> you're trying to stop the car ASAP for some reason.

On dry pavement I'd tend to agree, though I have been known to combine 
the brakes and steering; two options, get out of the path of whatever it 
is that you are going to hit (or is going to hit you) and stop as quick 
as you can.  Gotta be careful, though, because that kind of reaction can 
cause a rollover if you're not careful.  The objective is to keep all 
four wheels on the ground in a situation like that - wheels in the air 
don't do anything for braking or steering.

>> I don't do it on ice.  You can (and I can) lock the wheels driving at
>> 50 MPH with the brakes, but that also is likely to cause an
>> uncontrollable skid - though a shorter one - and often that is more
>> desirable than running into whatever it is that you're braking hard to
>> avoid.
> 
> Yep, and the same laws work also on ice and on snow, braking distances
> just grow even exponentially.

How well I know; having learned on ice and packed snow, for the first few 
days on dry pavement, I misjudged stopping distances pretty badly.  
Fortunately, I was a quick learner and didn't have any accidents.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 00:43:28 +0200, Eero Ahonen wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> 
>> LOL, now there's something that would be fun - a car that is driven
>> through a neural interface.
> 
> Hm, I don't really get that. Given that the ESP know the direction the
> car is going (after all, it certainly does realize if the car's going
> sideways) and it should be trivial to know the steering wheel position,
> ESP should be easily able to realize that the car isn't turning like the
> driver means. And it does realize that, if I'll just push the throttle
> to the floor and turns the car with brakes, but doesn't if I keep the
> throttle steady.

I think we're talking about two different things....I interpreted ESP as 
"Extrasensory Perception" and tied it into a neural link...you must be 
talking about some other usage of the TLA "ESP". :-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On 13 Feb 2009 17:44:43 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>> Try aspirin or ibuprofen or a graphics tablet. I don't get problems with
>> typing but with mouse work.
>
>I do take ibuprofen (usually for headaches, though).  I use a touchpad 
>rather than a mouse - I find it very difficult to use a mouse because 
>I've used touchpads for so long.
>

Have you tried a graphics tablet?  The natural feeling of using a pen takes away
a lot of the strain og using a touch pad or a mouse.

>> In England that is just Fish and chips, wrapped or open. In Scotland it
>> is a fish supper and if it is without chips it is a single fish and you
>> get two.
>
>Aye, then 'tis the supper for me. ;-)
>

Not a deep fried pizza, where the pizza is folded over and put in the deep fat
fryer?
BTW it is folded to stop the bits floating off.

>(Our local chip shop shut some months ago, no good alternatives around 
>now. :-( )

Home fries?
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 19:30:02 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 13 Feb 2009 17:44:43 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
>>> Try aspirin or ibuprofen or a graphics tablet. I don't get problems
>>> with typing but with mouse work.
>>
>>I do take ibuprofen (usually for headaches, though).  I use a touchpad
>>rather than a mouse - I find it very difficult to use a mouse because
>>I've used touchpads for so long.
>>
> Have you tried a graphics tablet?  The natural feeling of using a pen
> takes away a lot of the strain og using a touch pad or a mouse.

I haven't, but maybe I should. :-)  I'm no artist, but I have wanted to 
try out a pressure-sensitive pad for various things as well.  Wacom is 
supposed to make pretty good ones, wonder if there's someone locally who 
has one I can try out....

>>> In England that is just Fish and chips, wrapped or open. In Scotland
>>> it is a fish supper and if it is without chips it is a single fish and
>>> you get two.
>>
>>Aye, then 'tis the supper for me. ;-)
>>
> Not a deep fried pizza, where the pizza is folded over and put in the
> deep fat fryer?

Ugh, no - I do have my limits. ;-)

> BTW it is folded to stop the bits floating off.

That makes sense.  Actually sounds kinda like a calzone, but deep-fried.

>>(Our local chip shop shut some months ago, no good alternatives around
>>now. :-( )
> 
> Home fries?

Yeah, they used to, but had a problem with their supplier.  The fish was 
pretty good, but after their original place was torn down, they went into 
too much debt in the new location.  A real shame, because the food was 
very good.

Not as good as we had in Hastings (but it's hard to get really fresh fish 
here in the desert - not impossible, but it's very pricey), but still 
very good.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Stephen wrote:
> Not a deep fried pizza, where the pizza is folded over and put in the deep fat
> fryer?

 From recent experience: If you slide a pizza out of the oven and the 
cardboard you're using to carry it buckles, and the pizza starts to slide 
off towards the floor, you *might* want to just write it off, rather than 
catching it with bare hands.  Because it's gonna be cold before you finish 
putting medicine on the burns anyway. :-)

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

Post a reply to this message

On 14 Feb 2009 14:57:52 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>> Have you tried a graphics tablet?  The natural feeling of using a pen
>> takes away a lot of the strain og using a touch pad or a mouse.
>
>I haven't, but maybe I should. :-)  I'm no artist, but I have wanted to 
>try out a pressure-sensitive pad for various things as well.  Wacom is 
>supposed to make pretty good ones, wonder if there's someone locally who 
>has one I can try out....
>

I bought a Wacom on ebay cheaply to try it out. (There was a lot of discussion
here at the time) I found that I liked using it so much I bought two cheep ones
from Maplins (£17) to use at work and to carry around with my laptop.) I really
only use them as a mouse substitute. I find that they reduce my RSI a lot
especially if I swap between the tablet, mouse and touch pad.

>> Not a deep fried pizza, where the pizza is folded over and put in the
>> deep fat fryer?
>
>Ugh, no - I do have my limits. ;-)
>

So do I :)

>> BTW it is folded to stop the bits floating off.
>
>That makes sense.  Actually sounds kinda like a calzone, but deep-fried.
>

Think deep fried soft bread Yeuch!

>>>(Our local chip shop shut some months ago, no good alternatives around
>>>now. :-( )
>> 
>> Home fries?
>
>Yeah, they used to, but had a problem with their supplier.  The fish was 
>pretty good, but after their original place was torn down, they went into 
>too much debt in the new location.  A real shame, because the food was 
>very good.
>

Shame :(

>Not as good as we had in Hastings (but it's hard to get really fresh fish 
>here in the desert - not impossible, but it's very pricey), but still 
>very good.

Hastings :) 
A couple of years ago we used to go to Hastings and load up the car with fish to
put in the freezer. The Fish n Chips there are to die for. :)
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 12:13:58 -0800, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:

>Stephen wrote:
>> Not a deep fried pizza, where the pizza is folded over and put in the deep fat
>> fryer?
>
> From recent experience: If you slide a pizza out of the oven and the 
>cardboard you're using to carry it buckles, and the pizza starts to slide 
>off towards the floor, you *might* want to just write it off, rather than 
>catching it with bare hands.  Because it's gonna be cold before you finish 
>putting medicine on the burns anyway. :-)

LOL

Reminds me of the last time I dropped a pound coin. As I bent down to pick it
up, it hit me on the back of my head. :)

(I wonder if this reply will post? I tried to reply twice to Jims message above
but I could not see my post) 
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 20:51:41 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 14 Feb 2009 14:57:52 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
>>> Have you tried a graphics tablet?  The natural feeling of using a pen
>>> takes away a lot of the strain og using a touch pad or a mouse.
>>
>>I haven't, but maybe I should. :-)  I'm no artist, but I have wanted to
>>try out a pressure-sensitive pad for various things as well.  Wacom is
>>supposed to make pretty good ones, wonder if there's someone locally who
>>has one I can try out....
>>
> I bought a Wacom on ebay cheaply to try it out. (There was a lot of
> discussion here at the time) I found that I liked using it so much I
> bought two cheep ones from Maplins (£17) to use at work and to carry
> around with my laptop.) I really only use them as a mouse substitute. I
> find that they reduce my RSI a lot especially if I swap between the
> tablet, mouse and touch pad.

Cool, I don't usually think of eBay for stuff like this, will have to 
have a look.

>>> Not a deep fried pizza, where the pizza is folded over and put in the
>>> deep fat fryer?
>>
>>Ugh, no - I do have my limits. ;-)
>>
> So do I :)

This is good to know.

>>> BTW it is folded to stop the bits floating off.
>>
>>That makes sense.  Actually sounds kinda like a calzone, but deep-fried.
>>
> Think deep fried soft bread Yeuch!

Well, I *was* hungry until I read that.  I think I'm going to go throw up 
now. ;-)

>>>>(Our local chip shop shut some months ago, no good alternatives around
>>>>now. :-( )
>>> 
>>> Home fries?
>>
>>Yeah, they used to, but had a problem with their supplier.  The fish was
>>pretty good, but after their original place was torn down, they went
>>into too much debt in the new location.  A real shame, because the food
>>was very good.
>>
>>
> Shame :(

Yeah.  There's a local pub that does a good battered fish and chips, but 
it's one of many things they do.  I find that for *really* good ones, you 
gotta go somewhere that that's all they do.

We've decided to go to the pub tomorrow, though, and I think that's what 
I may have.  Thing is, they have other things that I like far better.

>>Not as good as we had in Hastings (but it's hard to get really fresh
>>fish here in the desert - not impossible, but it's very pricey), but
>>still very good.
> 
> Hastings :)
> A couple of years ago we used to go to Hastings and load up the car with
> fish to put in the freezer. The Fish n Chips there are to die for. :)

Yeah, I agree.  The shop we went to was right there on the sea (kinda 
hard not to be, at that).  It was really funny, three Americans walk in 
and the lad who took the order had to ask us to repeat ourselves because 
we were *too* softspoken.  Then he got curious about where we were from 
because he couldn't place the accent - this was near the end of 2 weeks 
in the UK, and my wife and I adapt our speaking to where we are - not a 
conscious thing, just the way we're both wired - so we were somewhere 
between Utah (where we live) Minnesota (where I grew up), Southern PA 
(where my wife grew up) and Bucks, with a little but of the local blended 
in because we'd been there a few days with friends.

He was *very* confused as a result.  It probably didn't help that we were 
dressed like locals as well, rather than as stereotypical American 
tourists in loud Hawaiian shirts and whatnot. ;-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On 14 Feb 2009 16:49:58 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>> I bought a Wacom on ebay cheaply to try it out. (There was a lot of
>> discussion here at the time) I found that I liked using it so much I
>> bought two cheep ones from Maplins (£17) to use at work and to carry
>> around with my laptop.) I really only use them as a mouse substitute. I
>> find that they reduce my RSI a lot especially if I swap between the
>> tablet, mouse and touch pad.
>
>Cool, I don't usually think of eBay for stuff like this, will have to 
>have a look.
>

Nor do I but my wife was buying a lot of HiFi accessories on ebay, at the time.

>
>Yeah.  There's a local pub that does a good battered fish and chips, but 
>it's one of many things they do.  I find that for *really* good ones, you 
>gotta go somewhere that that's all they do.
>
>We've decided to go to the pub tomorrow, though, and I think that's what 
>I may have.  Thing is, they have other things that I like far better.
>

Pub, fish and chips? Better than nothing, I suppose.

>
>Yeah, I agree.  The shop we went to was right there on the sea (kinda 
>hard not to be, at that).  It was really funny, three Americans walk in 
>and the lad who took the order had to ask us to repeat ourselves because 
>we were *too* softspoken.  Then he got curious about where we were from 
>because he couldn't place the accent - this was near the end of 2 weeks 
>in the UK, and my wife and I adapt our speaking to where we are - not a 
>conscious thing, just the way we're both wired - so we were somewhere 
>between Utah (where we live) Minnesota (where I grew up), Southern PA 
>(where my wife grew up) and Bucks, with a little but of the local blended 
>in because we'd been there a few days with friends.
>
>He was *very* confused as a result.  It probably didn't help that we were 
>dressed like locals as well, rather than as stereotypical American 
>tourists in loud Hawaiian shirts and whatnot. ;-)

Sometimes you need to live up to people's expectations and speak as if you are
off the telly, to be understood. :) 
Harking back to my time in Jamaica. I found it quite disconcerting speaking to
white Jamaicans (actually called island-born "Jamaican whites"). My ears were
saying that they were black but my eyes told a different story. 
A little rider to that for others reading it. It is not like saying someone
sounds "urban". In countries that the people are predominantly not white there
is a more matter of fact way of speaking about colour and race than in our first
world countries. I've been taken aback a few times.

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 09:36:53 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 14 Feb 2009 16:49:58 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
>>> I bought a Wacom on ebay cheaply to try it out. (There was a lot of
>>> discussion here at the time) I found that I liked using it so much I
>>> bought two cheep ones from Maplins (£17) to use at work and to carry
>>> around with my laptop.) I really only use them as a mouse substitute.
>>> I find that they reduce my RSI a lot especially if I swap between the
>>> tablet, mouse and touch pad.
>>
>>Cool, I don't usually think of eBay for stuff like this, will have to
>>have a look.
>>
> Nor do I but my wife was buying a lot of HiFi accessories on ebay, at
> the time.

Ah.  Well, I've found one up there and am keeping an eye on the bidding; 
it's another 4 days before it's done, but current bid is only $1.25.  
Meantime, I'm going to see if our marketing department has someone who 
has one I could take a look at. :-)

>>Yeah.  There's a local pub that does a good battered fish and chips, but
>>it's one of many things they do.  I find that for *really* good ones,
>>you gotta go somewhere that that's all they do.
>>
>>We've decided to go to the pub tomorrow, though, and I think that's what
>>I may have.  Thing is, they have other things that I like far better.
>>
> Pub, fish and chips? Better than nothing, I suppose.

Well, yeah, thing is like I said, they have many things that I like a lot 
better.  But their fish is battered with their own beer (it's a pub and 
brewery), a very good Hefeweisen.  But I usually end up getting the 
jambalaya because it's really good.  Or I could just sit and eat wings 
all night. :-)

>>He was *very* confused as a result.  It probably didn't help that we
>>were dressed like locals as well, rather than as stereotypical American
>>tourists in loud Hawaiian shirts and whatnot. ;-)
> 
> Sometimes you need to live up to people's expectations and speak as if
> you are off the telly, to be understood. :)

LOL, unfortunately (or fortunately, more appropriately) for us that's 
just not gonna happen. ;-)

> Harking back to my time in Jamaica. I found it quite disconcerting
> speaking to white Jamaicans (actually called island-born "Jamaican
> whites"). My ears were saying that they were black but my eyes told a
> different story. A little rider to that for others reading it. It is not
> like saying someone sounds "urban". In countries that the people are
> predominantly not white there is a more matter of fact way of speaking
> about colour and race than in our first world countries. I've been taken
> aback a few times.

It can be surprising when that happens, have had that happen once or 
twice myself. :-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

>> I do that (downshifting 2-3 gears at once) every day while slowing down
>> from the motorway - either 6-5-3-2, 6-4-2 or 6-3-2, depending on place,
>> traffic etc.
>
> Ah, I've never driven a 6-speed vehicle.  From higher gears it would
> probably be less of an issue, but dropping from 3 to 1 can redline the
> engine, at least IME.

I never put the car into 1st gear unless I'm stopped or moving along at a 
constant very slow speed in traffic, the ratio is usually so high that by 5 
km/hr you need to change to 2nd unless you are in a race or something.

On my old 5-speed car I would usually do 5-3-2 when coming to a stop from a 
high speed, in my current 6-speed I would definitely do 6-4-3-2 or even 
6-3-2 sometimes if slowing down relatively quickly.  The only time I use 5th 
gear while slowing down is if traffic is bad and say the speed has dropped 
from 120 km/hr to 80 km/hr, 80 is a bit slow for 6th gear if you are 
expecting to accelerate again soon, but I can do without the high RPM that 
4th gear would offer (both because of the noise and the fuel consumption).

You won't redline the engine if you wait until the revs are down near idle 
before changing down, but doing 3rd-1st is going to cause problems because 
the ratios are so far apart.

Post a reply to this message

> Ahh, Audi takes more time, it lets the slide start but then crunches the
> car back to line.

I would estimate that mine lets the rear wheels slide about 30-50 cm 
sideways, then it pulls it back in line, it usually happens so fast on 
snow/ice that it's hard to tell what's going on.

> BMW?

Yep 120d so the turbo makes the power a bit on/off with the throttle, a 
petrol would be better for controlling the power IMO.  Also if I just tap 
the ESP-disable button (rather than hold it down for a few seconds) it puts 
it into some kind of 50% help mode, maybe that will let you have more fun 
but still stop you from losing control completely, IDK, maybe I will try it 
again when we have some more snow on the roads.

> I don't even need to brake with the engine - if I have too much speed
> for a corner, keep the throttle steady and turn quickly, car goes
> straight ahead and ESP does nothing.

Mine seems to correct understeer too, which is quite handy when driving a 
bit faster than you should be on snow :-)  - I saw the tyre tracks of where 
someone else had gone off onto the grass and thought I was going there too 
for a moment :-)

Post a reply to this message

>>> Top on that,
>>> engine braking is more economical than using the brakes.
>>
>> Depends how expensive it is to replace the clutch :-)
>>
>
> Ummm.. no, bad clutch-usage ain't dependent on engine braking. :-)

Hehe yes, I guess if you matched the revs before downshifting to get engine 
braking that would be the most economic way and give least wear to the car - 
but I doubt many people do that as it seems counter-intuitive to rev the 
engine if you are trying to slow down!

Post a reply to this message

On 15 Feb 2009 12:58:35 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>
>Ah.  Well, I've found one up there and am keeping an eye on the bidding; 
>it's another 4 days before it's done, but current bid is only $1.25.  
>Meantime, I'm going to see if our marketing department has someone who 
>has one I could take a look at. :-)
>

It took me a couple of days to get used to them. I define the uppermost barrel
button as right click and the lower one as double click. A lot of utilities use
gestures so that if you draw a "W" word will open a "<-" goes back in your
browser, "P", prints etc.

>>>Yeah.  There's a local pub that does a good battered fish and chips, but
>>>it's one of many things they do.  I find that for *really* good ones,
>>>you gotta go somewhere that that's all they do.
>>>
>>>We've decided to go to the pub tomorrow, though, and I think that's what
>>>I may have.  Thing is, they have other things that I like far better.
>>>
>> Pub, fish and chips? Better than nothing, I suppose.
>
>Well, yeah, thing is like I said, they have many things that I like a lot 
>better.  But their fish is battered with their own beer (it's a pub and 
>brewery), a very good Hefeweisen.  But I usually end up getting the 
>jambalaya because it's really good.  Or I could just sit and eat wings 
>all night. :-)
>

I've developed a taste for Hoegaarden over the past couple of years.
I'd not heard of jambalaya before but it sounds nice and as for wings. Isn't
that the bit you throw away or use for stack? :)

>>>He was *very* confused as a result.  It probably didn't help that we
>>>were dressed like locals as well, rather than as stereotypical American
>>>tourists in loud Hawaiian shirts and whatnot. ;-)
>> 
>> Sometimes you need to live up to people's expectations and speak as if
>> you are off the telly, to be understood. :)
>
>LOL, unfortunately (or fortunately, more appropriately) for us that's 
>just not gonna happen. ;-)
>

Keep it up :)

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 09:49:48 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 15 Feb 2009 12:58:35 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
>>Ah.  Well, I've found one up there and am keeping an eye on the bidding;
>>it's another 4 days before it's done, but current bid is only $1.25.
>>Meantime, I'm going to see if our marketing department has someone who
>>has one I could take a look at. :-)
>>
>>
> It took me a couple of days to get used to them. I define the uppermost
> barrel button as right click and the lower one as double click. A lot of
> utilities use gestures so that if you draw a "W" word will open a "<-"
> goes back in your browser, "P", prints etc.

Cool. I figure it'll be interesting to get gestures working on Linux - 
but there is support for many of the Wacom devices, so that'll be 
interesting.

>>> Pub, fish and chips? Better than nothing, I suppose.
>>
>>Well, yeah, thing is like I said, they have many things that I like a
>>lot better.  But their fish is battered with their own beer (it's a pub
>>and brewery), a very good Hefeweisen.  But I usually end up getting the
>>jambalaya because it's really good.  Or I could just sit and eat wings
>>all night. :-)
>>
> I've developed a taste for Hoegaarden over the past couple of years. I'd
> not heard of jambalaya before but it sounds nice and as for wings. Isn't
> that the bit you throw away or use for stack? :)

Hoegaarden?  I don't think I've heard of that, will have to google it and 
find out more about what it is.  Hmmm, looks interesting.

Jambalaya is very good when made properly.

A couple of friends of mine from Edinburgh used to think the way you do 
about wings; they're coming to town in March, and I know they're going to 
want to go to Squatter's just for the wings.  Seriously good grub.

Had the fish & chips.  The batter was a little soggy, sadly, so it wasn't 
as good as I'd hoped.

> 
>>>>He was *very* confused as a result.  It probably didn't help that we
>>>>were dressed like locals as well, rather than as stereotypical
>>>>American tourists in loud Hawaiian shirts and whatnot. ;-)
>>> 
>>> Sometimes you need to live up to people's expectations and speak as if
>>> you are off the telly, to be understood. :)
>>
>>LOL, unfortunately (or fortunately, more appropriately) for us that's
>>just not gonna happen. ;-)
>>
> Keep it up :)

But of course. ;-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 09:15:53 +0100, scott wrote:

>>> I do that (downshifting 2-3 gears at once) every day while slowing
>>> down from the motorway - either 6-5-3-2, 6-4-2 or 6-3-2, depending on
>>> place, traffic etc.
>>
>> Ah, I've never driven a 6-speed vehicle.  From higher gears it would
>> probably be less of an issue, but dropping from 3 to 1 can redline the
>> engine, at least IME.
> 
> I never put the car into 1st gear unless I'm stopped or moving along at
> a constant very slow speed in traffic, the ratio is usually so high that
> by 5 km/hr you need to change to 2nd unless you are in a race or
> something.

This was true on my old 3-speed Duster as well.  It was usually going 
from 3rd to 2nd.  In my automatic, which I think is a 4-speed, I can drop 
to 3rd and that's usually sufficient.

> You won't redline the engine if you wait until the revs are down near
> idle before changing down, but doing 3rd-1st is going to cause problems
> because the ratios are so far apart.

Yeah, that's gotta be the important bit.  I do recall going from 3rd to 
1st on occasion with a rapid deceleration, now that you mention it.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On 16 Feb 2009 23:28:07 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>> It took me a couple of days to get used to them. I define the uppermost
>> barrel button as right click and the lower one as double click. A lot of
>> utilities use gestures so that if you draw a "W" word will open a "<-"
>> goes back in your browser, "P", prints etc.
>
>Cool. I figure it'll be interesting to get gestures working on Linux - 
>but there is support for many of the Wacom devices, so that'll be 
>interesting.
>

Well if I can spread the word :)
IIRC It was "Lance from Oz" on this ng that made me want to try one.
Let me know how you get on.

>> I've developed a taste for Hoegaarden over the past couple of years. I'd
>> not heard of jambalaya before but it sounds nice and as for wings. Isn't
>> that the bit you throw away or use for stack? :)
>
>Hoegaarden?  I don't think I've heard of that, will have to google it and 
>find out more about what it is.  Hmmm, looks interesting.
>

It tastes interesting too :)

>Jambalaya is very good when made properly.
>
>A couple of friends of mine from Edinburgh used to think the way you do 
>about wings; they're coming to town in March, and I know they're going to 
>want to go to Squatter's just for the wings.  Seriously good grub.
>

Edinburgh, 'nuff said ;)

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 08:49:37 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 16 Feb 2009 23:28:07 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
>>> It took me a couple of days to get used to them. I define the
>>> uppermost barrel button as right click and the lower one as double
>>> click. A lot of utilities use gestures so that if you draw a "W" word
>>> will open a "<-" goes back in your browser, "P", prints etc.
>>
>>Cool. I figure it'll be interesting to get gestures working on Linux -
>>but there is support for many of the Wacom devices, so that'll be
>>interesting.
>>
>>
> Well if I can spread the word :)
> IIRC It was "Lance from Oz" on this ng that made me want to try one. Let
> me know how you get on.

Will do.  Current bids are getting out of my budget, but I'll keep my 
eyes open. :-)

>>> I've developed a taste for Hoegaarden over the past couple of years.
>>> I'd not heard of jambalaya before but it sounds nice and as for wings.
>>> Isn't that the bit you throw away or use for stack? :)
>>
>>Hoegaarden?  I don't think I've heard of that, will have to google it
>>and find out more about what it is.  Hmmm, looks interesting.
>>
>>
> It tastes interesting too :)

I'll bet.

>>Jambalaya is very good when made properly.
>>
>>A couple of friends of mine from Edinburgh used to think the way you do
>>about wings; they're coming to town in March, and I know they're going
>>to want to go to Squatter's just for the wings.  Seriously good grub.
>>
>>
> Edinburgh, 'nuff said ;)

LOL, I'll tell 'em you said that when I see them next month.  My friend 
in Bucks also likes 'em, though. :-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On 18 Feb 2009 12:02:30 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>> Well if I can spread the word :)
>> IIRC It was "Lance from Oz" on this ng that made me want to try one. Let
>> me know how you get on.
>
>Will do.  Current bids are getting out of my budget, but I'll keep my 
>eyes open. :-)
>

If you wait long enough a suitable one will turn up.

>>>A couple of friends of mine from Edinburgh used to think the way you do
>>>about wings; they're coming to town in March, and I know they're going
>>>to want to go to Squatter's just for the wings.  Seriously good grub.
>>>
>>>
>> Edinburgh, 'nuff said ;)
>
>LOL, I'll tell 'em you said that when I see them next month.  My friend 
>in Bucks also likes 'em, though. :-)

Oooo! Scary :)

I'm talking through a hole in my head as I've never eaten them. It just doesn't
seem right. But then I'd never eaten Wedgies until I tried them. :)
It is probably snobbery on my part.
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 17:39:19 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 18 Feb 2009 12:02:30 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
>>> Well if I can spread the word :)
>>> IIRC It was "Lance from Oz" on this ng that made me want to try one.
>>> Let me know how you get on.
>>
>>Will do.  Current bids are getting out of my budget, but I'll keep my
>>eyes open. :-)
>>
> If you wait long enough a suitable one will turn up.

Yep, absolutely.  In fact, there is one that's sans mouse, and the mouse 
can be purchased separately, so that might be the better/quicker way to 
go.

>>>>A couple of friends of mine from Edinburgh used to think the way you
>>>>do about wings; they're coming to town in March, and I know they're
>>>>going to want to go to Squatter's just for the wings.  Seriously good
>>>>grub.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Edinburgh, 'nuff said ;)
>>
>>LOL, I'll tell 'em you said that when I see them next month.  My friend
>>in Bucks also likes 'em, though. :-)
> 
> Oooo! Scary :)

Well, and like you, before he tried them he didn't see the point. :-)

> I'm talking through a hole in my head as I've never eaten them. It just
> doesn't seem right. But then I'd never eaten Wedgies until I tried them.
> :) It is probably snobbery on my part.

Oh, probably. ;-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:

> This was true on my old 3-speed Duster as well.  It was usually going 
> from 3rd to 2nd.  In my automatic, which I think is a 4-speed, I can drop 
> to 3rd and that's usually sufficient.

Heh. My secondary summer toy has a long-geared BW37 automatic
transmission. When floored, it kickdowns to 1st up to 60km/h and to 2nd
up to 100km/h speeds, changes up to 2nd on 75km/h and to 3rd at 120km/h :).

> Jim

-Aero

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
> 
> I would estimate that mine lets the rear wheels slide about 30-50 cm
> sideways, then it pulls it back in line, it usually happens so fast on
> snow/ice that it's hard to tell what's going on.

I'd say between 50cm and 1m with Audi, having plenty of time to notice.

>> BMW?
> 
> Yep 120d so the turbo makes the power a bit on/off with the throttle, a
> petrol would be better for controlling the power IMO.  

It's just stupid not to supercharge the engine. But yes, turbocharged
petrol is less than three :).

> Also if I just
> tap the ESP-disable button (rather than hold it down for a few seconds)
> it puts it into some kind of 50% help mode, maybe that will let you have
> more fun but still stop you from losing control completely, IDK, maybe I
> will try it again when we have some more snow on the roads.

Same for me - it first drops the ASR (which basically is just traction
control system and disabling it on B8 is just... worthless), hold it
longer and it disables the ESP.

> Mine seems to correct understeer too, which is quite handy when driving
> a bit faster than you should be on snow :-)  - I saw the tyre tracks of
> where someone else had gone off onto the grass and thought I was going
> there too for a moment :-)

That's pretty much what Audi's ESP also should do, especially while B8
is extremely understeering car. People say that old Saabs (99,900) tend
to understeer, but comparing to B8, you can drift half the world with 900.

-Aero

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
> 
> Hehe yes, I guess if you matched the revs before downshifting to get
> engine braking that would be the most economic way and give least wear
> to the car - but I doubt many people do that as it seems
> counter-intuitive to rev the engine if you are trying to slow down!
> 

True, but those people neither drive economically nor clutch-wise anyway. :)

-Aero

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 10:27:20 +0200, Eero Ahonen wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
>> This was true on my old 3-speed Duster as well.  It was usually going
>> from 3rd to 2nd.  In my automatic, which I think is a 4-speed, I can
>> drop to 3rd and that's usually sufficient.
> 
> Heh. My secondary summer toy has a long-geared BW37 automatic
> transmission. When floored, it kickdowns to 1st up to 60km/h and to 2nd
> up to 100km/h speeds, changes up to 2nd on 75km/h and to 3rd at 120km/h
> :).

Yeah, I can push my Saturn to downshift as well - when I got my first one 
back in '93, that took a little getting used to.

Jim

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