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Have a look at this:
http://vis.renci.org/jeff/
No, ignore the text. Look at the site design. How the heck do you *do*
stuff like that?! o_O
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Invisible <voi### [at] dev null> wrote:
> Have a look at this:
> http://vis.renci.org/jeff/
> No, ignore the text. Look at the site design. How the heck do you *do*
> stuff like that?! o_O
Ever heard of this program called Photoshop? Although other similar
programs exist too.
--
- Warp
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Invisible wrote:
> Have a look at this:
>
> http://vis.renci.org/jeff/
>
> No, ignore the text. Look at the site design. How the heck do you *do*
> stuff like that?! o_O
The background image?
I think, it's "just" different layers and gradients.
Gimp
---
bluetree
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Warp wrote:
> Ever heard of this program called Photoshop? Although other similar
> programs exist too.
OK. So you create a cool background image. Now how do you build a
complex website out of that?
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>> Ever heard of this program called Photoshop? Although other similar
>> programs exist too.
>
> OK. So you create a cool background image. Now how do you build a
> complex website out of that?
Looks like a simple page to me.
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>> OK. So you create a cool background image. Now how do you build a
>> complex website out of that?
>
> Looks like a simple page to me.
No, *this* looks like a simple page to me:
http://www.orphi.me.uk/rev1/02-Computers/01-Workings/01-Basic.html
Quite how you turn something like that into the elaborate construction I
mentioned I have no idea. (E.g., somehow changing the text size doesn't
break the alignment of the individual image elements...)
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>>> OK. So you create a cool background image. Now how do you build a
>>> complex website out of that?
>>
>> Looks like a simple page to me.
>
> No, *this* looks like a simple page to me:
>
> http://www.orphi.me.uk/rev1/02-Computers/01-Workings/01-Basic.html
No, that looks like a word document from the 80s ;-)
> Quite how you turn something like that into the elaborate construction I
> mentioned I have no idea. (E.g., somehow changing the text size doesn't
> break the alignment of the individual image elements...)
Learn about the div tag and how to set the location, size, colour, borders,
margins etc for it.
*This* is a complex page:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/
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>> No, *this* looks like a simple page to me:
>>
>> http://www.orphi.me.uk/rev1/02-Computers/01-Workings/01-Basic.html
>
> No, that looks like a word document from the 80s ;-)
Yeah - and I'd like to make my website *not* suck quite this badly.
[As an aside... _my_ Word documents *still* look like this! :-P I don't
know what's different about yours.]
>> Quite how you turn something like that into the elaborate construction
>> I mentioned I have no idea. (E.g., somehow changing the text size
>> doesn't break the alignment of the individual image elements...)
>
> Learn about the div tag and how to set the location, size, colour,
> borders, margins etc for it.
Or, perhaps more usefully, figure out how this is useful for something?
> *This* is a complex page:
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/
Yes. And I'm not sure I really like it that much. (And you *certainly*
couldn't describe it as being pretty.)
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> [As an aside... _my_ Word documents *still* look like this! :-P I don't
> know what's different about yours.]
Well they have diagrams, photos, headers and footers, page numbers etc.
>> Learn about the div tag and how to set the location, size, colour,
>> borders, margins etc for it.
>
> Or, perhaps more usefully, figure out how this is useful for something?
Umm, you need to be creative, using div and its friends just gives you the
tools to make a nice looking page, doesn't automatically do it for you.
Start off with just placing a few boxes around and getting the feel for how
it works. Get a book on CSS or just google some tutorials. Or if you're
hardcore just read the HTML 4 reference and work everything out :-)
>> http://www.amazon.co.uk/
>
> Yes. And I'm not sure I really like it that much. (And you *certainly*
> couldn't describe it as being pretty.)
Agreed, although it depends what comes up on your front page :-)
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scott wrote:
>> [As an aside... _my_ Word documents *still* look like this! :-P I
>> don't know what's different about yours.]
>
> Well they have diagrams, photos, headers and footers, page numbers etc.
OK, well mind have headers and footers for the document title and page
number, yes. There's usually not much call for anything else though. (I
write dull procedure documents, remember?)
>>> Learn about the div tag and how to set the location, size, colour,
>>> borders, margins etc for it.
>>
>> Or, perhaps more usefully, figure out how this is useful for something?
>
> Umm, you need to be creative.
Yes. This is where I fail. At almost everything there is.
I can look at something and go "hey, that's cool". I can attempt to copy
it, sometimes successfully. But I am hopeless at originallity. That's
why I can't write stories, compose music, render interesting images, or
produce a feature-length animated film. It's also partly why I can't
build an interesting website...
...but the main reason is, I have *no idea* how to chop an image up into
little pieces, put them onto a web server, and switch then back together
with HTML and CSS so that the text sits nicely over the top. O_O
> using div and its friends just gives you
> the tools to make a nice looking page, doesn't automatically do it for
> you. Start off with just placing a few boxes around and getting the feel
> for how it works. Get a book on CSS or just google some tutorials. Or
> if you're hardcore just read the HTML 4 reference and work everything
> out :-)
Bah. I've already read the HTML 4 spec. A long time ago. XHTML is the
current technology, yes? I've also read the various CSS specs. [And then
been sorely dissapointed that most of it isn't supported by any known
browser yet...]
>>> http://www.amazon.co.uk/
>>
>> Yes. And I'm not sure I really like it that much. (And you *certainly*
>> couldn't describe it as being pretty.)
>
> Agreed, although it depends what comes up on your front page :-)
Uh... the same as everybody else? (It's not like I'm logged in...)
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> ...but the main reason is, I have *no idea* how to chop an image up into
> little pieces, put them onto a web server, and switch then back together
> with HTML and CSS so that the text sits nicely over the top. O_O
Well go read some books or tutorials then, it's not hard. Try "CSS tutorial
layering" in google, but I recommend you first learn how CSS works before
delving into the details of specific solutions.
>> Agreed, although it depends what comes up on your front page :-)
>
> Uh... the same as everybody else? (It's not like I'm logged in...)
Dunno what the "standard" amazon page looks like, it always comes up with
stuff it thinks I will be interested in.
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scott wrote:
>> ...but the main reason is, I have *no idea* how to chop an image up
>> into little pieces, put them onto a web server, and switch then back
>> together with HTML and CSS so that the text sits nicely over the top. O_O
>
> Well go read some books or tutorials then, it's not hard. Try "CSS
> tutorial layering" in google, but I recommend you first learn how CSS
> works before delving into the details of specific solutions.
I *know* how CSS works. What I don't know is how it's possible to use
that to construct nontrivial pages.
(If you look at my site again, you'll see it's already using CSS in
fact. That's why the page is green, but the breadcrumbs are yellow. All
the words hilighted in red are using <span> tags, and so forth.)
>>> Agreed, although it depends what comes up on your front page :-)
>>
>> Uh... the same as everybody else? (It's not like I'm logged in...)
>
> Dunno what the "standard" amazon page looks like, it always comes up
> with stuff it thinks I will be interested in.
I think it just customises _which_ books and CDs it yells at you about.
I could be wrong though... ;-)
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Invisible wrote:
> No, ignore the text. Look at the site design. How the heck do you *do*
> stuff like that?! o_O
Not quite as visually impressive, but look at this:
http://www.slimeland.com/
Now click on the various "stylesheet" buttons, and watch the entire site
instantly transform.
Sure, CSS allows you to change colours and add image backgrounds. But
this stuff is seriously crazy. I can't even begin to imagine how this is
remotely possible...
PS. Last updated in... 2005? Wow.
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> Sure, CSS allows you to change colours and add image backgrounds. But this
> stuff is seriously crazy. I can't even begin to imagine how this is
> remotely possible...
CSS also allows you to set the location rules and sizes of div blocks. So
in your html you can put a bunch of text into the "main" div, and then in
the CSS you can describe where and how you want the main div to appear.
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Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> Invisible wrote:
>
> > No, ignore the text. Look at the site design. How the heck do you *do*
> > stuff like that?! o_O
>
> Not quite as visually impressive, but look at this:
>
> http://www.slimeland.com/
>
> Now click on the various "stylesheet" buttons, and watch the entire site
> instantly transform.
>
> Sure, CSS allows you to change colours and add image backgrounds.
That is where you are mistaken. You can control much more than that with CSS.
You can control how and where to position things, too.
> But
> this stuff is seriously crazy. I can't even begin to imagine how this is
> remotely possible...
>
>
>
> PS. Last updated in... 2005? Wow.
Have a look at http://www.w3schools.com/css/default.asp
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>> Sure, CSS allows you to change colours and add image backgrounds.
>
> That is where you are mistaken. You can control much more than that with CSS.
Sure. You can adjust fonts and colours, add bullets and numbering, draw
line borders and add padding, and several other things besides.
(I did once try delivering raw XML with a CSS stylesheet. I managed to
make it do almost everything HTML does, but with less brokenness.
However, I was forced to stop when I realised that there's no way to
make hyperlinks using CSS...)
> You can control how and where to position things, too.
Yes - but you're only adjusting the default layout. (E.g., adding more
space around a specific item than is the default.) It's not like you can
invent totally new layouts from scratch.
> Have a look at http://www.w3schools.com/css/default.asp
I'm not sure why everybody thinks W3 Schools is so good... I find most
of their material to be vague and unhelpful.
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scott wrote:
> CSS also allows you to set the location rules and sizes of div blocks.
> So in your html you can put a bunch of text into the "main" div, and
> then in the CSS you can describe where and how you want the main div to
> appear.
Hmm. It's an interesting theory... Must be pretty complex to make it
work properly though.
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> Yes - but you're only adjusting the default layout. (E.g., adding more
> space around a specific item than is the default.) It's not like you can
> invent totally new layouts from scratch.
Incorrect. In the simplest case you can position any section of the
document with absolute coordinates relative to the browser window. There
are of course more complex and useful positioning schemes available within
CSS.
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Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> > You can control how and where to position things, too.
>
> Yes - but you're only adjusting the default layout. (E.g., adding more
> space around a specific item than is the default.) It's not like you can
> invent totally new layouts from scratch.
No, you can tell a div where exactly it is supposed to show up. Either relative
to the page or relative to the viewport.
see here: http://de.selfhtml.org/css/eigenschaften/anzeige/position.htm
All elements are positioned through CSS only
Me wonders: You claim to have read the CSS spec but have not noticed position,
left, top, width and height?
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"Aydan" <hes### [at] hendrik-sachsenet> wrote in message
news:web.497889b3415164161ccf29180@news.povray.org...
> Have a look at http://www.w3schools.com/css/default.asp
Thanks for that. Bookmarked. :)
~Steve~
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>>> You can control how and where to position things, too.
>> Yes - but you're only adjusting the default layout. (E.g., adding more
>> space around a specific item than is the default.) It's not like you can
>> invent totally new layouts from scratch.
>
> No, you can tell a div where exactly it is supposed to show up. Either relative
> to the page or relative to the viewport.
Well, that's true, but how does that help?
(I guess it means you can make section 2 appear above section 1 instead
of below it - but that's not very helpful.)
> see here: http://de.selfhtml.org/css/eigenschaften/anzeige/position.htm
This page fails to load.
> All elements are positioned through CSS only
>
> Me wonders: You claim to have read the CSS spec but have not noticed position,
> left, top, width and height?
The width, margin, padding, etc. properties allow you to adjust the size
of an element and the amount of spacing around it. (When these
properties actually work, of course.) You can also flip an element from
block to inline and back, and control whether an element displays or
not, takes up visual space or not, etc.
In order words, tweak the way the element will display.
What I'm not seeing is how it's possible to have two elements display at
the same horizontal position. (Well, without using tables anyway - and
who the hell wants to do that?) Adding and removing spacing is merely
tweaking HTML's top-to-bottom layout algorithm. I don't know how it's
possible to put stuff side-by-side in violation of that rule.
I also don't see how to overprint multiple things on top of each other
with transparency.
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scott wrote:
>> Yes - but you're only adjusting the default layout. (E.g., adding more
>> space around a specific item than is the default.) It's not like you
>> can invent totally new layouts from scratch.
>
> Incorrect. In the simplest case you can position any section of the
> document with absolute coordinates relative to the browser window.
> There are of course more complex and useful positioning schemes
> available within CSS.
When I read the CSS spec, I didn't see anything that lets you escape the
fundamental top-to-bottom layout algorithm of HTML. Unless I missed an
entire section somewhere or something...
Random question: Given that CSS is supposed to allow you to position
things relative to the viewport, why do so many websites use JavaScript
to make things move back into view when you try to scroll the page?
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"Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:497892d2$1@news.povray.org...
> This page fails to load.
I had the same, refresh it.
~Steve~
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> > see here: http://de.selfhtml.org/css/eigenschaften/anzeige/position.htm
>
> This page fails to load.
Here's the source code for the page:
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"><html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<title>position</title>
<style type="text/css">
body { margin:0; padding:0; height:1500px; }
div { border:1px solid #888; }
#s1 { width:150px; height:35px; }
#s2 { width:150px; height:35px; }
#r3 { width:150px; height:35px; position:relative; top:5px; left:25px;
background-color:#dfd; }
#s4 { width:150px; height:35px; }
#s5 { width:150px; height:35px; }
#r6 { width:150px; height:35px; position:relative; top:-15px; left:10px;
background-color:#fdd; }
#s7 { width:150px; height:35px; }
#s8 { width:150px; height:35px; }
#a1 { position:absolute; top:35px; left:240px; width:150px; height:150px;
z-index:1; background-color:#ddf; }
#a2 { position:absolute; top:90px; left:230px; width:120px; height:70px;
z-index:2; background-color:#ccf; }
#a3 { position:absolute; top:220px; left:200px; width:250px; height:250px;
z-index:3; background-color:#ffa; }
#a4 { position:absolute; top:20px; left:20px; width:70px; height:70px;
z-index:1; background-color:#ff5; }
#a5 { position:absolute; top:20px; right:20px; width:70px; height:70px;
z-index:2; background-color:#dd2; }
#a6 { position:absolute; top:130px; left:-50px; width:190px; height:70px;
z-index:-1; background-color:#fdd; }
#a7 { position:absolute; top:530px; left:50px; bottom:50px; right:50px;
background-color:#fdd; }
#f1 { position:fixed; top:45px; left:430px; width:150px; height:150px;
background-color:#afa; }
</style>
</head>
<body>
<p>Um <code>position:fixed</code> zu demonstrieren, scrollen Sie an das Ende der
Seite.</p>
<div id="s1">s1 static</div>
<div id="s2">s2 static</div>
<div id="r3">r3 relative</div>
<div id="s4">s4 static</div>
<div id="s5">s5 static</div>
<div id="r6">r6 relative</div>
<div id="s7">s7 static</div>
<div id="a1">a1 absolute</div>
<div id="a2">a2 absolute</div>
<div id="a3">a3 absolute
<div id="a4">a4 absolute</div>
<div id="a5">a5 absolute</div>
<div id="a6">a6 absolute</div>
</div>
<div id="a7">a7 absolute</div>
<div id="f1">f1 fixed</div>
<div id="s8">s8 static</div>
<p><a href="../positionierung.htm#position">zurück</a></p>
</body>
</html>
See for yourself how it works
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Aydan wrote:
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"><html>
> <head>
> <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
> <title>position</title>
> <style type="text/css">
> body { margin:0; padding:0; height:1500px; }
> div { border:1px solid #888; }
>
> #s1 { width:150px; height:35px; }
> #s2 { width:150px; height:35px; }
> #r3 { width:150px; height:35px; position:relative; top:5px; left:25px;
> background-color:#dfd; }
> #s4 { width:150px; height:35px; }
> #s5 { width:150px; height:35px; }
> #r6 { width:150px; height:35px; position:relative; top:-15px; left:10px;
> background-color:#fdd; }
> #s7 { width:150px; height:35px; }
> #s8 { width:150px; height:35px; }
>
> #a1 { position:absolute; top:35px; left:240px; width:150px; height:150px;
> z-index:1; background-color:#ddf; }
> #a2 { position:absolute; top:90px; left:230px; width:120px; height:70px;
> z-index:2; background-color:#ccf; }
> #a3 { position:absolute; top:220px; left:200px; width:250px; height:250px;
> z-index:3; background-color:#ffa; }
> #a4 { position:absolute; top:20px; left:20px; width:70px; height:70px;
> z-index:1; background-color:#ff5; }
> #a5 { position:absolute; top:20px; right:20px; width:70px; height:70px;
> z-index:2; background-color:#dd2; }
> #a6 { position:absolute; top:130px; left:-50px; width:190px; height:70px;
> z-index:-1; background-color:#fdd; }
> #a7 { position:absolute; top:530px; left:50px; bottom:50px; right:50px;
> background-color:#fdd; }
>
> #f1 { position:fixed; top:45px; left:430px; width:150px; height:150px;
> background-color:#afa; }
> </style>
> </head>
> <body>
> <p>Um <code>position:fixed</code> zu demonstrieren, scrollen Sie an das Ende der
> Seite.</p>
>
> <div id="s1">s1 static</div>
> <div id="s2">s2 static</div>
> <div id="r3">r3 relative</div>
> <div id="s4">s4 static</div>
> <div id="s5">s5 static</div>
> <div id="r6">r6 relative</div>
> <div id="s7">s7 static</div>
>
> <div id="a1">a1 absolute</div>
> <div id="a2">a2 absolute</div>
> <div id="a3">a3 absolute
> <div id="a4">a4 absolute</div>
> <div id="a5">a5 absolute</div>
> <div id="a6">a6 absolute</div>
> </div>
>
> <div id="a7">a7 absolute</div>
>
> <div id="f1">f1 fixed</div>
>
> <div id="s8">s8 static</div>
>
> <p><a href="../positionierung.htm#position">zurück</a></p>
> </body>
> </html>
O_O
WTF? Damn, I had to look up what half the syntax means... (Don't people
usually use classes rather than IDs to assign styles?)
OK, well this is the craziest thing I've seen today. I'm not really sure
how all that stuff is even possible; I guess I'm going to have to
investigate...
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Invisible escreveu:
> Aydan wrote:
>
>> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"><html>
>> <head>
>> <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
>> <title>position</title>
>> <style type="text/css">
>> body { margin:0; padding:0; height:1500px; }
>> div { border:1px solid #888; }
>>
>> #s1 { width:150px; height:35px; }
>> #s2 { width:150px; height:35px; }
>> #r3 { width:150px; height:35px; position:relative; top:5px; left:25px;
>> background-color:#dfd; }
>> #s4 { width:150px; height:35px; }
>> #s5 { width:150px; height:35px; }
>> #r6 { width:150px; height:35px; position:relative; top:-15px; left:10px;
>> background-color:#fdd; }
>> #s7 { width:150px; height:35px; }
>> #s8 { width:150px; height:35px; }
>>
>> #a1 { position:absolute; top:35px; left:240px; width:150px; height:150px;
>> z-index:1; background-color:#ddf; }
>> #a2 { position:absolute; top:90px; left:230px; width:120px; height:70px;
>> z-index:2; background-color:#ccf; }
>> #a3 { position:absolute; top:220px; left:200px; width:250px;
>> height:250px;
>> z-index:3; background-color:#ffa; }
>> #a4 { position:absolute; top:20px; left:20px; width:70px; height:70px;
>> z-index:1; background-color:#ff5; }
>> #a5 { position:absolute; top:20px; right:20px; width:70px; height:70px;
>> z-index:2; background-color:#dd2; }
>> #a6 { position:absolute; top:130px; left:-50px; width:190px; height:70px;
>> z-index:-1; background-color:#fdd; }
>> #a7 { position:absolute; top:530px; left:50px; bottom:50px; right:50px;
>> background-color:#fdd; }
>>
>> #f1 { position:fixed; top:45px; left:430px; width:150px; height:150px;
>> background-color:#afa; }
>> </style>
>> </head>
>> <body>
>> <p>Um <code>position:fixed</code> zu demonstrieren, scrollen Sie an
>> das Ende der
>> Seite.</p>
>>
>> <div id="s1">s1 static</div>
>> <div id="s2">s2 static</div>
>> <div id="r3">r3 relative</div>
>> <div id="s4">s4 static</div>
>> <div id="s5">s5 static</div>
>> <div id="r6">r6 relative</div>
>> <div id="s7">s7 static</div>
>>
>> <div id="a1">a1 absolute</div>
>> <div id="a2">a2 absolute</div>
>> <div id="a3">a3 absolute
>> <div id="a4">a4 absolute</div>
>> <div id="a5">a5 absolute</div>
>> <div id="a6">a6 absolute</div>
>> </div>
>>
>> <div id="a7">a7 absolute</div>
>>
>> <div id="f1">f1 fixed</div>
>>
>> <div id="s8">s8 static</div>
>>
>> <p><a href="../positionierung.htm#position">zurück</a></p>
>> </body>
>> </html>
>
> O_O
>
> WTF? Damn, I had to look up what half the syntax means... (Don't people
> usually use classes rather than IDs to assign styles?)
yes, the page author clearly is missing the point of CSS.
BTW, here's the best CSS resource on the web, learn from it:
http://www.csszengarden.com/
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nemesis wrote:
> BTW, here's the best CSS resource on the web, learn from it:
>
> http://www.csszengarden.com/
Jesus Christ! That thing is amazing!! O_O
Damnit, I couldn't produce static graphics like this, never mind skin a
website with it...
<== PWN3D. :-(
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Invisible escreveu:
> nemesis wrote:
>
>> BTW, here's the best CSS resource on the web, learn from it:
>>
>> http://www.csszengarden.com/
>
> Jesus Christ! That thing is amazing!! O_O
>
> Damnit, I couldn't produce static graphics like this, never mind skin a
> website with it...
>
> <== PWN3D. :-(
indeed, but be sure not to browse it with older IE6.
You can look up the CSS source to learn... :)
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>>> http://www.csszengarden.com/
>>
>> Jesus Christ! That thing is amazing!! O_O
>>
>> Damnit, I couldn't produce static graphics like this, never mind skin
>> a website with it...
>>
>> <== PWN3D. :-(
>
> indeed, but be sure not to browse it with older IE6.
Why would you browse *anything* with IE? :-P
> You can look up the CSS source to learn... :)
No, I've already learned what matters: I cannot possibly compete with
this level of talent. I should just give up now... :-(
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"Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:49789f44@news.povray.org...
> No, I've already learned what matters: I cannot possibly compete with this
> level of talent. I should just give up now... :-(
Why are you always SO negative?
When I started learning Sandbox 1 and 2 for Farcry and Crysis, I
thought I wouldn't be able to do it, but I persevered and produced a map
that's now had 1,711 downloads. I must have done something right, because I
only had two complaints. One where a guy couldn't install the latest patch
for Crysis, so the objectives wouldn't show up, and one guy that couldn't
load the map through a third party program. To say I'm chuffed is an
understatement. :)
The keyword is: Persevered.
~Steve~
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St. escreveu:
> "Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
> news:49789f44@news.povray.org...
>
>> No, I've already learned what matters: I cannot possibly compete with this
>> level of talent. I should just give up now... :-(
>
> Why are you always SO negative?
>
> The keyword is: Persevered.
Indeed. Try to be more upbeat, Andrew.
Besides, CSS is used mostly by webdesigners, not programmers. They have
style, we have bugs.
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scott wrote:
> Well go read some books or tutorials then, it's not hard.
w3schools.com has very good free tutorials on lots of stuff. Just right to
get you started thru to the point where you can easily start using reference
documents.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
"Ouch ouch ouch!"
"What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
"No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."
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Invisible wrote:
> Sure, CSS allows you to change colours and add image backgrounds. But
> this stuff is seriously crazy. I can't even begin to imagine how this is
> remotely possible...
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/tables-vs-css/
A tutorial on how to do it.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
"Ouch ouch ouch!"
"What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
"No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."
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>> No, I've already learned what matters: I cannot possibly compete with this
>> level of talent. I should just give up now... :-(
>
> Why are you always SO negative?
Well, let's put it this way. I've been using POV-Ray for, what, nearly
10 years now? And I have yet to draw anything that can compare with the
designs on that website.
If I can't even produce something as trivial as a single static image
that looks good, what are the chances of producing a whole catelogue of
images and integrating them together in a complex mannar to construct an
intricate website?
Yes, exactly: nil.
> When I started learning Sandbox 1 and 2 for Farcry and Crysis, I
> thought I wouldn't be able to do it, but I persevered and produced a map
> that's now had 1,711 downloads.
Jesus, that's amazing! o_O
I had a go at building levels for Quake II once. It wasn't very
successful. I mean, I produced working levels, but they were all
extremely lame. I couldn't find a way of making the level editor produce
things that weren't just cubes or cylinders... and it was almost
impossible to edit any small objects like weapons or health packs. The
interface was just too clumsy.
Still, a while back I had a go at producing levels for HL2. Those didn't
even *run* correctly...
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> If I can't even produce something as trivial as a single static image
> that looks good, what are the chances of producing a whole catelogue of
> images and integrating them together in a complex mannar to construct an
> intricate website?
>
> Yes, exactly: nil.
>
Simple answer: Don't be a designer. There's a reason why many companies
don't let the programmers do the graphics ...
--
~Mike
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"Orchid XP v8" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:4978b66e$1@news.povray.org...
>>> No, I've already learned what matters: I cannot possibly compete with
>>> this
>>> level of talent. I should just give up now... :-(
>>
>> Why are you always SO negative?
>
> Well, let's put it this way. I've been using POV-Ray for, what, nearly
> 10 years now? And I have yet to draw anything that can compare with the
> designs on that website.
But what was it that you were actually trying to achieve? I learnt very
early on with PoV that I couldn't handle the translation of objects, so I
started to model with sPatch, and for me, this was a revelation that I could
just put an object where I wanted it without having to translate it, (read:
guess), to where I wanted it. See the attached; (lol at the filename) this
is a very early (all PoV) image (about 8 years ago I think), and you
wouldn't believe how long it took me to get those spheres where they are. (I
can't really remember, but well over an hour!)
My point is, do you try anything else? At all? And persevere with it?
>
> If I can't even produce something as trivial as a single static image
> that looks good, what are the chances of producing a whole catelogue of
> images and integrating them together in a complex mannar to construct an
> intricate website?
>
> Yes, exactly: nil.
But how many times do you open your 2D app in a year? How will you learn
anything if you don't practice?
It's almost like you 'expect' an app. to do something magical for you so
you don't have to do the hard work.
See this guy's work:
http://www.bertmonroy.com/fineart/text/fineart_damen.htm
>
>> When I started learning Sandbox 1 and 2 for Farcry and Crysis, I
>> thought I wouldn't be able to do it, but I persevered and produced a map
>> that's now had 1,711 downloads.
>
> Jesus, that's amazing! o_O
That's a small amount compared to some of the other guys maps, but I'm
happy with that. :) It's part 1 of 3, but when I actually get to do parts 2
and 3 is another matter...
>
> I had a go at building levels for Quake II once. It wasn't very
> successful. I mean, I produced working levels, but they were all
> extremely lame. I couldn't find a way of making the level editor produce
> things that weren't just cubes or cylinders... and it was almost
> impossible to edit any small objects like weapons or health packs. The
> interface was just too clumsy.
>
> Still, a while back I had a go at producing levels for HL2. Those didn't
> even *run* correctly...
Well, I can't comment on those games and engines as I've never
played/used them, but you have Farcry, so just load up Sandbox 1 (it's on
the disc) and you'll see what I mean when I said I didn't think I could do
it.
~Steve~
>
> --
> http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
> http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
Post a reply to this message
Attachments:
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Preview of image 'New_File_copy.jpg'
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Mike Raiford wrote:
> Simple answer: Don't be a designer. There's a reason why many companies
> don't let the programmers do the graphics ...
I see way too many ads for people who are experts in both Photoshop and SQL
query optimization. Translation: "We only have the budget to hire one person
to do the work of two."
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
"Ouch ouch ouch!"
"What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
"No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."
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St. wrote:
> It's almost like you 'expect' an app. to do something magical for you so
> you don't have to do the hard work.
That's not unusual with really smart people. They're so used to everything
being quick and easy that when they hit something that's of normal
difficulty, it seems overwhelming.
> Well, I can't comment on those games and engines as I've never
> played/used them, but you have Farcry, so just load up Sandbox 1 (it's on
> the disc) and you'll see what I mean when I said I didn't think I could do
> it.
And stay away from Thief's level editor.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
"Ouch ouch ouch!"
"What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
"No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."
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Darren New wrote:
> w3schools.com has very good free tutorials on lots of stuff. Just right
> to get you started thru to the point where you can easily start using
> reference documents.
Really? Well I must be looking at a different website or something... To
me it just seems to contain lots of short articles which mumble
something vague about what the technology is supposed to be and what
it's for, and gives you a quick overview of the most rudimentry syntax,
and that's it.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Darren New escreveu:
> I see way too many ads for people who are experts in both Photoshop and
> SQL query optimization. Translation: "We only have the budget to hire
> one person to do the work of two."
Very true. :)
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>>> Why are you always SO negative?
>> Well, let's put it this way. I've been using POV-Ray for, what, nearly
>> 10 years now? And I have yet to draw anything that can compare with the
>> designs on that website.
>
> But what was it that you were actually trying to achieve?
A website that doesn't look like something from 1996?
> My point is, do you try anything else? At all? And persevere with it?
What else is there to try?
> But how many times do you open your 2D app in a year? How will you learn
> anything if you don't practice?
Practice what? The problem here is that I lack talent.
Other people can pick up a pencil, draw a few brisk strokes on a pad of
paper, and produce something the like of which I couldn't copy if I had
several hours to work on it.
Using a computer doesn't really improve matters either. I played with a
copy of 3D Studio Max - allegedly "the most powerful 3D program ever".
All I could get it to do was render spheres and cylinders. I've got a
copy of Photoshop, but I can't make it do anything interesting. Ditto
for the GIMP. (But then, it's tricky just figuring out how to operate
that...)
I've spent years fiddling with POV-Ray, and to this day I have yet to
produce anything high-quality. Everything I make is dull and boring,
with bad lighting and laughable texturing.
> It's almost like you 'expect' an app. to do something magical for you so
> you don't have to do the hard work.
It's more like... I don't have any talent. No tool is going to fix that.
The problem is that I suck.
>>> When I started learning Sandbox 1 and 2 for Farcry and Crysis, I
>>> thought I wouldn't be able to do it, but I persevered and produced a map
>>> that's now had 1,711 downloads.
>> Jesus, that's amazing! o_O
>
> That's a small amount compared to some of the other guys maps, but I'm
> happy with that. :) It's part 1 of 3, but when I actually get to do parts 2
> and 3 is another matter...
I have never made anything in my entire life that has been downloaded
more than about 12 times.
In fact, I just had a look at the bill for my webspace. Apparently I get
charged 99p for MB downloaded. Wanna know what last year's charge was? £0.
I think 1,711 probably exceeds the total number of *visits* to my
website! I know for a fact it exceeds the visits to my Zazzle gallery...
>> I had a go at building levels for Quake II once. It wasn't very
>> successful.
>>
>> Still, a while back I had a go at producing levels for HL2. Those didn't
>> even *run* correctly...
>
> Well, I can't comment on those games and engines as I've never
> played/used them, but you have Farcry, so just load up Sandbox 1 (it's on
> the disc) and you'll see what I mean when I said I didn't think I could do
> it.
Yeah, but is it as impossible to operate as every other 3D editor out there?
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Really? Well I must be looking at a different website or something... To
> me it just seems to contain lots of short articles which mumble
> something vague about what the technology is supposed to be and what
> it's for, and gives you a quick overview of the most rudimentry syntax,
> and that's it.
Whenever I've had to learn something they cover in a hurry, they've given me
enough background information and examples that I could then go to the
reference material and understand what it's saying. That's what a tutorial
is for.
If it doesn't work for you, then it doesn't work for you. Altho, honestly,
I'm not real sure how one "mumbles" in a text document. :-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
"Ouch ouch ouch!"
"What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
"No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."
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nemesis wrote:
> http://www.csszengarden.com/
I'm just flicking through all the styles in here.
This is a tour-de-force in graphic design. My mind is blown. This stuff
looks incredible. This lot looks like something out of a glossy
magazine. The "minor detail" that it's also completely independent of
the content markup is even more amazing.
Check out "retro theatre". Wow, WTF? How...??! o_O
The site seems to be a little slow to respond right now. (Or maybe
that's my ISP?) Makes it interesting to actually *watch* the page load. ;-)
If only I could take away something useful from all this...
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Check out "retro theatre". Wow, WTF? How...??! o_O
That's good. I like http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=099/099.css also.
> If only I could take away something useful from all this...
The take-away is that if you ever work on web sites, you personally will
never have to learn how to lay out and style all the stuff you display. Give
it to the graphic artist instead. :-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
"Ouch ouch ouch!"
"What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
"No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."
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Darren New wrote:
> Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> Check out "retro theatre". Wow, WTF? How...??! o_O
>
> That's good. I like http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=099/099.css also.
>
>> If only I could take away something useful from all this...
Oh wow. That's pretty special. I mean, it looks butt-ugly, but special
all the same.
> The take-away is that if you ever work on web sites, you personally will
> never have to learn how to lay out and style all the stuff you display.
> Give it to the graphic artist instead. :-)
I still don't have any clue how you pick colours that will look nice
together. Even something as basic as that. And designing a good layout
too - styling the edges and curves, etc. Also many of the designs
feature beautiful flowers or dramatic cloudscapes - where the hell do
you *get* that stuff from?!
Obviously I'm never going to beat somebody with a qualification in
graphic design. But many of the designs I've seen today leave me starkly
wondering how this is even technically *possible*...
OTOH, I did have a go, and I managed to jiggle some boxes around on my
screen. I took some markup and completely rearraned the visual layout of
it. Unfortunately it looked like a ZX Spectrum on a bad day, but it
demonstrates how this stuff works.
So I see how the technology works now - I just have no idea how to apply
it to any kind of good effect. :-(
I guess my website is going to stay looking like crap after all...
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 19:47:05 +0000, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> I've spent years fiddling with POV-Ray, and to this day I have yet to
> produce anything high-quality. Everything I make is dull and boring,
> with bad lighting and laughable texturing.
Welcome to the club. I took drafting in college and with Moray I can
compose things OK, but my textures generally suck.
But I have not spent a lot of time learning POV's texturing system.
Nobody becomes an instant expert, you gotta work at it. Not fiddle with
it: Work at it.
Jim
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> I still don't have any clue how you pick colours that will look nice
> together. Even something as basic as that.
You can go all the way through to graduate degrees in a field called
"graphic design", which addresses this sort of thing.
http://www.allgraphicdesign.com/howtochoosecolors.html
Googling with "graphic design" in the title (such as
nice colors "graphics design"
) can get you links to tutorials on doing this sort of thing.
> Obviously I'm never going to beat somebody with a qualification in
> graphic design. But many of the designs I've seen today leave me starkly
> wondering how this is even technically *possible*...
I'm still more boggled at things like dragging boxes around from one side of
the other.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
"Ouch ouch ouch!"
"What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
"No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."
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"Darren New" <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote in message
news:4978c85b$1@news.povray.org...
> St. wrote:
>> It's almost like you 'expect' an app. to do something magical for you
>> so you don't have to do the hard work.
>
> That's not unusual with really smart people. They're so used to everything
> being quick and easy that when they hit something that's of normal
> difficulty, it seems overwhelming.
I think Andrew is 'too' smart, his brain is racing, trying *too many*
things at once, and *expecting* an answer from *terrible* code/apps/etc.
It's all supposed to be there, because, well, it's the year 2009, and it
*should* be there.
(Sorry Andrew, hate speaking from the third-person perspective, but it's
just my opinion).
>
>> Well, I can't comment on those games and engines as I've never
>> played/used them, but you have Farcry, so just load up Sandbox 1 (it's on
>> the disc) and you'll see what I mean when I said I didn't think I could
>> do it.
>
> And stay away from Thief's level editor.
Haha, I played the demo of some version of Thief a few years ago. I
thought it was really VERY good! Loved the hiding in shadows and the
lock-picking in corridors. :)
I would love to see the level editor for it though. I wonder how it
differs from what I've used?
~Steve~
>
> --
> Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
> "Ouch ouch ouch!"
> "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
> "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."
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St. wrote:
> Haha, I played the demo of some version of Thief a few years ago. I
> thought it was really VERY good! Loved the hiding in shadows and the
> lock-picking in corridors. :)
It's a great series with a wonderful story.
> I would love to see the level editor for it though. I wonder how it
> differs from what I've used?
Conceptually, it's pretty cool. You start with a solid block of
can't-go-there, then carve out the areas you can go, which is why you can't
crawl outside the geometry. Sky is just a texture that looks like
perspective when you run the game.
The suckage is that there *seems* to be so little automation involved. For
example, they make the default texture a really ugly plaid pattern, so it's
easier to find surfaces you forgot to texture. Instead of, you know, having
a button in the interface that says "find surfaces I forgot to texture."
There's nothing like "snap to grid" or any kind of alignment thingies for
ojbects, so you're constantly finding wall scones floating a couple inches
away from the wall and book cases facing the walls. And there's no assist in
building holes so that you can (for example) highlight a hole and ask "can
the player fit into this hole?"
And, as far as I can tell, there's no way to look at (for example) only the
close parts of the wireframe. So you get the entire city's wireframe when
you're trying to wireframe-edit the room.
I couldn't even get thru the tutorial on how to use it, nor could I use it
to .. well, cheat, I suppose you'd call it. I was looking for where
something in particular was in the level, and I couldn't even see the level
clearly enough to figure out how to get to where I wanted to go. (It turns
out I couldn't find it because it was only there on the hardest level, and I
wanted to see it again easily so I started playing the level on easy.)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
"Ouch ouch ouch!"
"What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
"No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."
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> Not quite as visually impressive, but look at this:
>
> http://www.slimeland.com/
>
> Now click on the various "stylesheet" buttons, and watch the entire site
> instantly transform.
Heh, wow, I forgot about that. In theory it's simple: you make the HTML
using simple structural elements, telling it what's a header, what's a
section, what's a paragraph, and then you use CSS to put things where you
want them and make it look nice. In practice, you have to know a lot of
hacks and tricks and what works in what browser. I spent a lot of time
learning that sort of thing in high school and college.
> PS. Last updated in... 2005? Wow.
Somewhere along the way I got bored with it. =)
- Slime
[ http://www.slimeland.com/ ]
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