Mike Raiford wrote:

> And, someone once said if your car is loud, you're not getting the most 
> performance.
> 
> And whatever you do, don't get me started on Harley Davidson motorcycles.

I'm still puzzled about the Race of Champions. They raced several 
designs of car which seemed to be using *external combustion* to propell 
themselves, rather than the more traditional *internal combustion*. (As 
evidenced by the huge flashes and bangs as they raced round the track.)

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> I'm still puzzled about the Race of Champions. They raced several designs 
> of car which seemed to be using *external combustion* to propell 
> themselves, rather than the more traditional *internal combustion*. (As 
> evidenced by the huge flashes and bangs as they raced round the track.)

That's quite common on race-tuned carburetor-engined cars, under certain 
circumstances they simply pour so much fuel into the engine that some of it 
goes unburnt through the exhaust system and ignites once the exhaust 
mixtures mixes with enough oxygen in the atmosphere.

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scott wrote:
>> I'm still puzzled about the Race of Champions. They raced several 
>> designs of car which seemed to be using *external combustion* to 
>> propell themselves, rather than the more traditional *internal 
>> combustion*. (As evidenced by the huge flashes and bangs as they raced 
>> round the track.)
> 
> That's quite common on race-tuned carburetor-engined cars, under certain 
> circumstances they simply pour so much fuel into the engine that some of 
> it goes unburnt through the exhaust system and ignites once the exhaust 
> mixtures mixes with enough oxygen in the atmosphere.

You would think, though, that if that fuel had burned inside the engine, 
it would deliver more power. And since the goal of any race-tuned engine 
is to produce maximum power......

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> And, someone once said if your car is loud, you're not getting the most 
> performance.

Not sure how true that is, formula 1 cars sound painfully loud yet the 
clever bods there so far have not come up with a way to make them quieter 
and generate more power at the same time...

Also I guess the silencer in your road-car exhaust system sucks a bit of 
power (the engine has to push harder to push the exhaust gasses through it), 
removing it should make your car louder and a bit faster.

Maybe someone could find a way to convert the sound energy from an engine 
into mechanical or electrical energy...

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scott wrote:
>> And, someone once said if your car is loud, you're not getting the 
>> most performance.
> 
> Not sure how true that is, formula 1 cars sound painfully loud yet the 
> clever bods there so far have not come up with a way to make them 
> quieter and generate more power at the same time...

Hehe... All the classic cars rush past sounding like a pack of angry 
bees, and then an F1 car comes out, sounding like an angry mosquito.

There's something deeply amusing about an angry but tiny animal...

> Also I guess the silencer in your road-car exhaust system sucks a bit of 
> power (the engine has to push harder to push the exhaust gasses through 
> it), removing it should make your car louder and a bit faster.

I don't know about that - I tried driving my car with no silencer, and 
it was *actually impossible* to exceed about 25 MPH. The car simply 
would not accelerate, even on the flat.

(OTOH, it was a fairly old car. But normally it would happily to 90 or so.)

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> You would think, though, that if that fuel had burned inside the engine, 
> it would deliver more power. And since the goal of any race-tuned engine 
> is to produce maximum power......

No, there is a limit to how much can burn inside the cylinder, it's better 
to dump in slightly above this amount rather than slightly below it.  Of 
course modern engines can control electronically the amount of fuel way more 
accurately, and especially in road cars you certainly don't want to be 
wasting fuel out the back!

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> Hehe... All the classic cars rush past sounding like a pack of angry bees, 
> and then an F1 car comes out, sounding like an angry mosquito.

Something to do with the F1 car engine rotating at 3x the speed of the 
classic cars.

> I don't know about that - I tried driving my car with no silencer, and it 
> was *actually impossible* to exceed about 25 MPH. The car simply would not 
> accelerate, even on the flat.

OK, so maybe you need to redesign the other parts of the exhaust system that 
were designed with the silencer in mind.  But there's a reason why race cars 
don't have silencers.

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scott wrote:
>> Hehe... All the classic cars rush past sounding like a pack of angry 
>> bees, and then an F1 car comes out, sounding like an angry mosquito.
> 
> Something to do with the F1 car engine rotating at 3x the speed of the 
> classic cars.

Yeah, probably that. ;-)

Actually, what was notable about the F1 cars wasn't so much the speed, 
but the *acceleration*. You see the cars go past on a straight, and it 
looks just like any other road full of traffic. But we sat at 
Silverstone on a corner. The cars would come up to it, go round it quite 
slowly, and then just *VANISH* off into the distance like they wer toy 
cars made of paper... it was pretty insane.

Also, watching an F1 car going round the tiny, twisty indoor circuit at 
the RoC, I noticed that it sounded like the engine was on a limiter the 
whole time. It produced a constant note like a tuning fork. Then the 
driver did a few dounuts, and it's amazing how quickly the engine revs 
up and down. Like it just has no flywheel at all! Heh.

>> I don't know about that - I tried driving my car with no silencer, and 
>> it was *actually impossible* to exceed about 25 MPH. The car simply 
>> would not accelerate, even on the flat.
> 
> OK, so maybe you need to redesign the other parts of the exhaust system 
> that were designed with the silencer in mind.  But there's a reason why 
> race cars don't have silencers.

Fo' shizzle! ;-)

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"Mike Raiford" <"m[raiford]!at"@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:497872c7$1@news.povray.org...

> Though a decent tuned exhaust does sound nice ...

   Agreed. There was motorbike back in the late 70's, early 80's called the 
Honda 400/4. I think it was the first to use a 4 into 1 exhaust sytem at 
that engine capacity. Hugely popular simply because it sounded fantastic. 
(It moved a bit too!) :)


> And whatever you do, don't get me started on Harley Davidson motorcycles.

     Me wants. :)

     ~Steve~


>
> -- 
> ~Mike

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> Actually, what was notable about the F1 cars wasn't so much the speed, but 
> the *acceleration*. You see the cars go past on a straight, and it looks 
> just like any other road full of traffic. But we sat at Silverstone on a 
> corner. The cars would come up to it, go round it quite slowly, and then 
> just *VANISH* off into the distance like they wer toy cars made of 
> paper... it was pretty insane.

Acceleration is determined by the power to weight ratio.  A "normal" family 
road car has perhaps 70-90 HP per ton, a fast sporty road car perhaps 
130-150.  A formula 1 car has about 1300 HP per ton.

> Also, watching an F1 car going round the tiny, twisty indoor circuit at 
> the RoC, I noticed that it sounded like the engine was on a limiter the 
> whole time.

Probably, without an electronic limiter the engine would likely self 
destruct quite quickly.  And for demo purposes I guess they turn down the 
limiter to quite a low RPM to avoid needlessly damaging an engine.  And the 
driver probably just had his foot to the floor bouncing off the limiter the 
whole time.

> It produced a constant note like a tuning fork. Then the driver did a few 
> dounuts, and it's amazing how quickly the engine revs up and down. Like it 
> just has no flywheel at all! Heh.

Pretty much no flywheel, no, that's why whenever some non-F1-driver tries to 
drive one they usually stall it immediately.  Once the car is moving of 
course there is not really any need for a flywheel.

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