I recently had a discussion with my daughter. She studies English and it 
was about English as lingua franca. I said that if on a conference the 
language is 'English' that means that an international dialect is 
spoken, not any official version of it.
That leads to at least two points where we slightly disagreed then, 
(perhaps we are more in agreement here now)
- Also native speakers have learn to speak it. I have heard talks that 
were almost incomprehensible because the speaker liberally used the 
expressions and sport metaphors he also used at the dinner table.
- If a way of expression is commonly used that is not correct from a 
linguistic point of view, you don't have to start a campaign to correct 
that error. On the contrary, if you think it is wrong you are the one 
that is wrong. Perhaps not a good example but one that I remember: a 
Dutch politician talked about 'golden showers' to express how expensive 
the bathrooms in a new European headquarters were. Some people ridiculed 
him saying: what a fool he is for not knowing that golden showers mean 
something else (if you don't know what, stay ignorant). My POV: what a 
fool that commentator is for not knowing that in international English 
that expression does not exist, he is confusing 'international English' 
with 'standard English'.

I think that the main points where international English differs from 
standard English are:
- there is no literature and no history. You can e.g. not refer to 
Shakespeare as a common background.
- slang does not exist in international English. If every expression 
that has a different meaning somewhere in the English spoken world id 
forbideed, there is not much to say anymore.
- Never use words expressions that force people to use a dictionary. I 
should probably have not used 'lingua franca' above and the use of 
'liberally' was also questionable.
- Jargon, smileys, and common abbreviations are allowed in international 
communication. ASAP and IMHO are recognized by all. OTOH one should not 
use 'on the gripping hand'.
- It is not just dumbing down, I think that sentences can be longer in 
international English. Especially if the speaker/writer is German, Dutch 
or from any other nation that allows full page sentences.

Any opinions?

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andrel wrote:
> Especially if the speaker/writer is German, Dutch
> or from any other nation that allows full page sentences.

Or full-line words :/

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andrel wrote:
> English as lingua franca.

I just want you to know how much this made me giggle.

> - Also native speakers have learn to speak it.

It takes a certain awareness. It doesn't take a lot of "learning" as much as 
it takes "paying attention to your metaphors". The more parochial you are, 
the more likely you are to mess things up.

> - If a way of expression is commonly used that is not correct from a 
> linguistic point of view, you don't have to start a campaign to correct 
> that error. On the contrary, if you think it is wrong you are the one 
> that is wrong. 

This is kind of true of all languages, if I understand what you mean.

> Perhaps not a good example but one that I remember: a 
> Dutch politician talked about 'golden showers' to express how expensive 
> the bathrooms in a new European headquarters were. Some people ridiculed 
> him saying: what a fool he is for not knowing that golden showers mean 
> something else (if you don't know what, stay ignorant). My POV: what a 
> fool that commentator is for not knowing that in international English 
> that expression does not exist, he is confusing 'international English' 
> with 'standard English'.

Well, I don't know what the expression means in Dutch, but it would seem to 
be a bit of an embarrassing mistake, assuming you get embarrassed by such 
mistakes.

> - there is no literature and no history. You can e.g. not refer to 
> Shakespeare as a common background.

I would imagine you can refer to history (either ancient or recent) or to 
recent literature (say, Star Wars comments, perhaps?)  Yes? No?

> - slang does not exist in international English. If every expression 
> that has a different meaning somewhere in the English spoken world id 
> forbideed, there is not much to say anymore.

True. Keep it simple. My wife still asks me questions about slang and 
idioms, even tho she's been speaking English fluently for 20+ years.

> - Never use words expressions that force people to use a dictionary. I 
> should probably have not used 'lingua franca' above and the use of 
> 'liberally' was also questionable.

I think in writing it's not so bad, especially interactive writing like a 
newsgroup, where people can ask if it's unclear. In group speaking, you have 
to take care. I wrote most of my international English in highly technical 
places, so that may influence my thinking on this.

> - Jargon, smileys, and common abbreviations are allowed in international 
> communication. ASAP and IMHO are recognized by all. OTOH one should not 
> use 'on the gripping hand'.

That's because "on the gripping hand" comes from literature. :-)

> - It is not just dumbing down,

No. It's using a restricted range of expressions that are the most common.

> Any opinions?

Other things: Don't use sentences whose meaning depends on complex tenses of 
the verb. E.g., don't use a sentence where "I would have been X" means 
something different than "I would have X".

Also, when speaking, you don't have to speak slowly, but you do have to 
clearly separate the words. I've found that most non-native speakers 
understand *much* more easily if there's a distinct if brief break between 
words, so it's obvious where the word breaks are. It also helps me immensely 
when trying to understand a foreign language (of which I barely understand 
one, so ... :-)

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
   There aren't any trees on Mars.

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On 18-Jan-09 0:06, Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> English as lingua franca.
> 
> I just want you to know how much this made me giggle.
> 
>> - Also native speakers have learn to speak it.
> 
> It takes a certain awareness. It doesn't take a lot of "learning" as 
> much as it takes "paying attention to your metaphors". The more 
> parochial you are, the more likely you are to mess things up.
> 
>> - If a way of expression is commonly used that is not correct from a 
>> linguistic point of view, you don't have to start a campaign to 
>> correct that error. On the contrary, if you think it is wrong you are 
>> the one that is wrong. 
> 
> This is kind of true of all languages, if I understand what you mean.

No, they might be qualified to judge errors in the usage of standard 
English, but they are not qualified to apply the same rules to 
international English. That would take as much sense as me pointing out 
that according to the Dutch rules for constructing sentences the English 
do it wrong. What confuses them is that both languages share a lot of 
words (most international ones come from the standard of course) and 
most of the syntax.

>> Perhaps not a good example but one that I remember: a Dutch politician 
>> talked about 'golden showers' to express how expensive the bathrooms 
>> in a new European headquarters were. Some people ridiculed him saying: 
>> what a fool he is for not knowing that golden showers mean something 
>> else (if you don't know what, stay ignorant). My POV: what a fool that 
>> commentator is for not knowing that in international English that 
>> expression does not exist, he is confusing 'international English' 
>> with 'standard English'.
> 
> Well, I don't know what the expression means in Dutch, but it would seem 
> to be a bit of an embarrassing mistake, assuming you get embarrassed by 
> such mistakes.

It doesn't mean anything in Dutch and my point is that it is not a 
mistake. People tend to think it is a mistake, but they are wrong. The 
only objection you could have is that there is another language where it 
does have a different meaning and that people who know that will be too 
occupied by that to listen to what you have to say.

>> - there is no literature and no history. You can e.g. not refer to 
>> Shakespeare as a common background.
> 
> I would imagine you can refer to history (either ancient or recent) or 
> to recent literature (say, Star Wars comments, perhaps?)  Yes? No?

I wouldn't refer to Star Wars in a talk at a conference. I have never 
see anybody do that and would frown if they did. Unless in a cartoon as 
the last slide if it gives a comment on the talk.

>> - slang does not exist in international English. If every expression 
>> that has a different meaning somewhere in the English spoken world id 
>> forbideed, there is not much to say anymore.
> 
> True. Keep it simple. My wife still asks me questions about slang and 
> idioms, even tho she's been speaking English fluently for 20+ years.
> 
>> - Never use words expressions that force people to use a dictionary. I 
>> should probably have not used 'lingua franca' above and the use of 
>> 'liberally' was also questionable.
> 
> I think in writing it's not so bad, especially interactive writing like 
> a newsgroup, where people can ask if it's unclear. In group speaking, 
> you have to take care. I wrote most of my international English in 
> highly technical places, so that may influence my thinking on this.

The context we were discussion was indeed Biomedical conferences ans such.

>> - Jargon, smileys, and common abbreviations are allowed in 
>> international communication. ASAP and IMHO are recognized by all. OTOH 
>> one should not use 'on the gripping hand'.
> 
> That's because "on the gripping hand" comes from literature. :-)

I know, and you know why I said it that way.

>> - It is not just dumbing down,
> 
> No. It's using a restricted range of expressions that are the most common.
> 
>> Any opinions?
> 
> Other things: Don't use sentences whose meaning depends on complex 
> tenses of the verb. E.g., don't use a sentence where "I would have been 
> X" means something different than "I would have X".
> 
> Also, when speaking, you don't have to speak slowly, but you do have to 
> clearly separate the words. I've found that most non-native speakers 
> understand *much* more easily if there's a distinct if brief break 
> between words, so it's obvious where the word breaks are. It also helps 
> me immensely when trying to understand a foreign language (of which I 
> barely understand one, so ... :-)

Dus   zal   ik   duidelijk   mijn   woorden   gescheiden   uitspreken.

;)

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andrel wrote:
> No, they might be qualified to judge errors in the usage of standard 
> English, but they are not qualified to apply the same rules to 
> international English.

I see what you mean. I misinterpreted what you were trying to say.

> It doesn't mean anything in Dutch and my point is that it is not a 
> mistake. People tend to think it is a mistake, but they are wrong. The 
> only objection you could have is that there is another language where it 
> does have a different meaning and that people who know that will be too 
> occupied by that to listen to what you have to say.

And that would be the mistake I'm referring to. A case of poor communication 
for no reason other than the mistake of not knowing the slang you wouldn't 
be expected to know anyway. Which is why I wouldn't be embarrassed by it.

> I wouldn't refer to Star Wars in a talk at a conference.

Not as anything more than a joke, no.

> The context we were discussion was indeed Biomedical conferences ans such.

Yep. I was agreeing. :-)

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
   There aren't any trees on Mars.

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>
> Other things: Don't use sentences whose meaning depends on complex tenses of
> the verb. E.g., don't use a sentence where "I would have been X" means
> something different than "I would have X".

I guess I haven't had to worry about the distinction before.  What happens if
the difference between the two makes a difference?  In general terms, of
course, but this sounds difficult for native speakers to remember unless there
clear rules beyond "don't make it too complex."

 - Ricky

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andrel <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:

> It doesn't mean anything in Dutch and my point is that it is not a
> mistake. People tend to think it is a mistake, but they are wrong. The
> only objection you could have is that there is another language where it
> does have a different meaning and that people who know that will be too
> occupied by that to listen to what you have to say.

Indeed.  There was no mistake when our Sudanese friend told us his brother used
to molest him regularly.  It's perfectly correct in both dialects, only it
turns out people assume something entirely different in American English, as
opposed to the British English he learned.  In his words, "No, not the Michael
Jackson kind!"

 - Ricky

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On 18-Jan-09 21:30, triple_r wrote:
> andrel <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
> 
>> It doesn't mean anything in Dutch and my point is that it is not a
>> mistake. People tend to think it is a mistake, but they are wrong. The
>> only objection you could have is that there is another language where it
>> does have a different meaning and that people who know that will be too
>> occupied by that to listen to what you have to say.
> 
> Indeed.  There was no mistake when our Sudanese friend told us his brother used
> to molest him regularly.  It's perfectly correct in both dialects, only it
> turns out people assume something entirely different in American English, as
> opposed to the British English he learned.  In his words, "No, not the Michael
> Jackson kind!"
> 
>  - Ricky

I like that one. I might use it in future discussion with the daughter.

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andrel <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
> - slang does not exist in international English.

English is da shiznit! :D

It's undoubtly the new latin, lingua franca of the internet indeed.

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triple_r wrote:
> Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>> Other things: Don't use sentences whose meaning depends on complex tenses of
>> the verb. E.g., don't use a sentence where "I would have been X" means
>> something different than "I would have X".
> 
> I guess I haven't had to worry about the distinction before.  What happens if
> the difference between the two makes a difference? 

You get confusion, is all.

I've just found that in my dealings with non-native speakers, subtle tense 
differences are not as well practiced as past-present-future.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
   There aren't any trees on Mars.

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On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 17:12:51 -0500, nemesis wrote:

> andrel <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
>> - slang does not exist in international English.
> 
> English is da shiznit! :D
> 
> It's undoubtly the new latin, lingua franca of the internet indeed.

Or indeed of technology in general, certainly of computing in general.

Jim

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> It doesn't mean anything in Dutch and my point is that it is not a 
> mistake. People tend to think it is a mistake, but they are wrong. The 
> only objection you could have is that there is another language where it 
> does have a different meaning and that people who know that will be too 
> occupied by that to listen to what you have to say.

And if you expect a significant number of your audience to "get it" and thus 
lose concentration, you are making a mistake by saying it.  Know your 
audience, including where they come from and what languages they know.  Of 
course it's very hard to avoid everything like this, but if you know your 
audience you can make a good effort, asking for advice from natives if 
necessary.

> I wouldn't refer to Star Wars in a talk at a conference. I have never see 
> anybody do that and would frown if they did. Unless in a cartoon as the 
> last slide if it gives a comment on the talk.

Someone I know once did a whole presentation for about 30 mins based on Star 
Wars to explain how his department worked.  He had cleverly renamed each 
character from Star Wars with people in his department, and made up a good 
number of very funny animated slides.  I'd say that the majority of the 
audience "got it" and everyone I spoke to afterwards was talking about it 
being the best presentation of the day (this was the last day, which was a 
bit more light hearted than the previous days).  Certainly was a very stark 
contrast to the previous slot which was taken up with 519 slides of 
financial data and a very boring commentary.

>> I've found that most non-native speakers understand *much* more easily if 
>> there's a distinct if brief break between words, so it's obvious where 
>> the word breaks are. It also helps me immensely when trying to understand 
>> a foreign language (of which I barely understand one, so ... :-)

You're screwed though if the language you are trying to learn just joins 
words together to make longer ones!  Even if you see them written you get 
stuck trying to work out where they join, and which sequence of letters you 
should be looking up in the dictionary.

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On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 11:11:13 +0100, andrel <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:

>I recently had a discussion with my daughter. She studies English and it 
>was about English as lingua franca. I said that if on a conference the 
>language is 'English' that means that an international dialect is 
>spoken, not any official version of it.

Out of interest

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7844192.stm
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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Stephen wrote:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7844192.stm

The funny thing is, when a bunch of bilingual Mandarin speakers get together 
in America, they almost always speak mostly Mandarin, with only the 
technical words coming out in English. So Mandarin still seems to be holding 
out.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

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On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 11:46:48 -0800, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:

>Stephen wrote:
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7844192.stm
>
>The funny thing is, when a bunch of bilingual Mandarin speakers get together 
>in America, they almost always speak mostly Mandarin, with only the 
>technical words coming out in English. So Mandarin still seems to be holding 
>out.

It is the same here, in the UK, with Cantonese but not with Urdu or Hindi. I
suspect that former colonial countries use English for technical discussions in
preference to their own language because modern technical innovations occurred
after English became the language used to speak to the rulers.
As an aside, a few years ago when I was working in Croatia. I overheard a
technical discussion in Croatian. I was able to follow, it by listening to the
technical words, enough to interrupt and correct some misconceptions. This
surprised my co=workers and myself as my knowledge of the language was limited
to asking for one or two beers or coffees.
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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