>> There are no guarantees in life - that's the way it is.  But like I've 
>> said before, Andy, DON'T decide for a prospective employer what you're 
>> worth - THAT'S THEIR JOB, NOT YOURS.
>
> ...unless they say "so how much are you expecting us to pay you?" ;-)

Actually here in Germany it's quite different to the UK, no job advert ever 
says what salary they are going to pay, not even a range.  You have to tell 
them what you are expecting.

Also watch out because when they are interviewing you they will likely ask 
what your current salary is.  Make sure you have a figure in your head for 
when they ask you this question.  DO NOT tell them your real salary because 
it is way lower than someone like you deserves.  By answering this question 
with 25K instead of 15K you will have just earnt yourself an extra 10K per 
year for the rest of your life.  No matter how much you hate lying, you'd be 
really really stupid to tell them the truth, because they are only going to 
pay you the minimum they think they need to.

Post a reply to this message

> Right, so... why are they going to hire me again??

Because nobody better applied.

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>> Right, so... why are they going to hire me again??
> 
> Because nobody better applied.

That's a *highly* improbably hypothesis.

Post a reply to this message

> LOL! I suppose I could explain that it's a Turing-complete scene 
> description language for photorealistic image and animation construction / 
> scripting... that could sound impressive. ;-)

Actually, I only found out about POV when I was applying for a job that 
mentioned it.  I forget the name of the company, but they did realtime and 
pre-rendered work for car companies etc.  Of course I looked up everything 
that was mentioned on the job advert, and well here I am :-)

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:

> Actually here in Germany it's quite different to the UK, no job advert 
> ever says what salary they are going to pay, not even a range.  You have 
> to tell them what you are expecting.

OK, that sounds pretty scary.

If you say a number that's too high, they'll do "damn, we're not paying 
that!" and not hire you. And if you say a number that's too low, they'll 
be all like "haha, this guy doesn't have a clue!"

> Also watch out because when they are interviewing you they will likely 
> ask what your current salary is.  Make sure you have a figure in your 
> head for when they ask you this question.  DO NOT tell them your real 
> salary because it is way lower than someone like you deserves.  By 
> answering this question with 25K instead of 15K you will have just earnt 
> yourself an extra 10K per year for the rest of your life.  No matter how 
> much you hate lying, you'd be really really stupid to tell them the 
> truth, because they are only going to pay you the minimum they think 
> they need to.

Uh-huh. And they're not going to check this and find out I'm blatently 
lying?

Besides, do I really want to work for somebody where I have to lie to 
get what I desurve?

OOC... I run a small computer network, and I write technical documents. 
What do you estimate I *should* be being paid for that?

Post a reply to this message

>>> What, severely exaggerating the truth throughout?
>>
>> Yes. Bluntly, yes.
>
> Isn't that illegal?

No.

> Er, no... They hire you, find out you're lying, and press criminal charges 
> for fraud. o_O

There is no way that will happen unless you actually said something 
seriously false, like you had a degree from somewhere you don't.  And even 
then they're likely not going to bother with any charges because they won't 
be bothered, they'll just sack you.  There is no way on this Earth they are 
going to start arguing with you about whether "built a comprehensive 
database backup script" is lying or not because it's only 20 lines long.

Post a reply to this message

> If you say a number that's too high, they'll do "damn, we're not paying 
> that!" and not hire you. And if you say a number that's too low, they'll 
> be all like "haha, this guy doesn't have a clue!"

Depends how important finances are to the company compared with getting the 
right person.  There is a wide range where they will take note of you.  For 
a job we recently advertised we were expecting to have to pay around 70K 
euro, but the people we did interview were asking for around 50-60K euro, 
which was a bonus!

> Uh-huh. And they're not going to check this and find out I'm blatently 
> lying?

No, how on Earth do you imagine that they could find out your salary?

> Besides, do I really want to work for somebody where I have to lie to get 
> what I desurve?

If they sense that they could offer you 20K and you'd accept, they will. If 
you say your current salary is 25K then there is no way they would offer you 
20K.  It's up to you.

> OOC... I run a small computer network, and I write technical documents. 
> What do you estimate I *should* be being paid for that?

With a computer science degree and 6 years experience, I'd say around 25K 
was about right, maybe even more if you've really gotten into improving the 
network infrastructure etc rather than just being a support person following 
orders.

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>> If you say a number that's too high, they'll do "damn, we're not 
>> paying that!" and not hire you. And if you say a number that's too 
>> low, they'll be all like "haha, this guy doesn't have a clue!"
> 
> Depends how important finances are to the company compared with getting 
> the right person.  There is a wide range where they will take note of 
> you.

Heh, well, almost everybody *claims* they want the most brilliant 
people. I think some of them are more serious about it than others 
though. ;-)

>> Uh-huh. And they're not going to check this and find out I'm blatently 
>> lying?
> 
> No, how on Earth do you imagine that they could find out your salary?

They call my employer and ask them? It's not rocket science.

>> Besides, do I really want to work for somebody where I have to lie to 
>> get what I desurve?
> 
> If they sense that they could offer you 20K and you'd accept, they will. 
> If you say your current salary is 25K then there is no way they would 
> offer you 20K.  It's up to you.

Heh. But if I was getting paid 25K to sit here posting monad tutorials 
on povray.off-topic, why would I be looking for another job? ;-)

Since the pay is one of my major motivations for wanting to leave, I 
think I'm going to have trouble explaining that one. (Altough I guess 
the incompetent management and the empty order book and the stream of 
people leaving the company would be another reason...)

>> OOC... I run a small computer network, and I write technical 
>> documents. What do you estimate I *should* be being paid for that?
> 
> With a computer science degree and 6 years experience, I'd say around 
> 25K was about right, maybe even more if you've really gotten into 
> improving the network infrastructure etc rather than just being a 
> support person following orders.

If I had the cheque book, and people would *listen* to what I'm saying, 
I could do that... But hey, that's why I'm moving!

Benny seems to think I should be earning 30K - 40K. (Working for 
somebody else, that is.) Personally I think that's a little ambitious 
for somebody of my limited skill. As I understand it, technical people 
don't merit such high salaries, only salesmen and managers.

Post a reply to this message

>> Because nobody better applied.
>
> That's a *highly* improbably hypothesis.

You need to learn to come across more positive, almost every comment you've 
made in this thread has been negative.  People give helpful suggestions and 
almost every time you just throw it back to them with some trivial made-up 
excuse why it won't work.  No wonder you can't find another job if that 
attitude comes across in your CV/letter/interview.

You seem to be under this delusion that for every job advertised there will 
be hundreds of people applying with the perfect match of experience and 
qualifications.  Get real, that hardly ever happens even in large companies.

Post a reply to this message

> Heh, well, almost everybody *claims* they want the most brilliant people. 
> I think some of them are more serious about it than others though. ;-)

Of course, some will have a budget much bigger than others, you never know.

>> No, how on Earth do you imagine that they could find out your salary?
>
> They call my employer and ask them? It's not rocket science.

There is no way your employer would give out such information to anyone 
outside the company.  Even to internal employees they would never give out 
such information, unless authorised to do so by someone quite senior.

> Since the pay is one of my major motivations for wanting to leave, I think 
> I'm going to have trouble explaining that one.

DO NOT tell them your motivation for moving is the pay.  There is no way 
they will employ someone who is just moving to get a higher salary, because 
in 2 years time they will be off to another company for more money.  You 
explain that your motivation for moving is because you have no opportunities 
for progressing your career in the company and the work is very repetitive 
blah blah blah.

> Benny seems to think I should be earning 30K - 40K. (Working for somebody 
> else, that is.) Personally I think that's a little ambitious for somebody 
> of my limited skill.

Not at all, if you had spent 2 years working at your company, then maybe 
moved up and taken some more responsibility for the networking etc (or moved 
to a different company with a more responsible job) you could easily be 
earning that much or more.  The problem you have is that you've spent 6 
years doing essentially the same job with no propspect of career 
progression, so you can't really expect your salary to rise to that much for 
just doing the same thing.

> As I understand it, technical people don't merit such high salaries, only 
> salesmen and managers.

Rubbish, that job I told you about that we thought we needed to pay 70K 
euro, that was for an Engineer with 7 years experience.  I have no idea how 
much we actually offered him, but I know he was earning 56K euro in his 
current job, which we all thought was a bit low given what he was doing.

Google "average graduate salary" and hit the first link, it's 24K euro. 
Even with only 3% pay rises and no promotion you should be on almost 30K 
after six years.

I think you just started out on an exceptionally under paid job, and because 
you've stuck at it for so long you're kind of out of touch with what other 
technical people with 6 years experience are being paid.

BTW just being a manager doesn't mean you're not technical, my manager does 
essentially the same job as me, he just has a lot more experience and does 
more stuff like budget and reporting with senior people.

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:

> You need to learn to come across more positive, almost every comment 
> you've made in this thread has been negative.  People give helpful 
> suggestions and almost every time you just throw it back to them with 
> some trivial made-up excuse why it won't work.

Actually I agreed with quite a few of the comments (e.g., your 
suggestion that I remove the ancient history from my CV).

> No wonder you can't find 
> another job if that attitude comes across in your CV/letter/interview.
> 
> You seem to be under this delusion that for every job advertised there 
> will be hundreds of people applying with the perfect match of experience 
> and qualifications.  Get real, that hardly ever happens even in large 
> companies.

Given the spectacular lack of success I've experienced during the course 
of my entire career - nay, my entire *life* - I guess that's not so 
surprising, eh?

I take your point. It's just rather hard to believe something when all 
the available evidence consistently points to the contrary. Even if, 
rationally, you know the available evidence is somewhat skewed.

Still, you'd think that a huge, well-known company like Google or Nokia 
would constantly have far more applicants than they know what to do 
with. It is most unlikely that *I* would be the best of the entire pack.

Post a reply to this message

>>> No, how on Earth do you imagine that they could find out your salary?
>>
>> They call my employer and ask them? It's not rocket science.
> 
> There is no way your employer would give out such information to anyone 
> outside the company.  Even to internal employees they would never give 
> out such information, unless authorised to do so by someone quite senior.

Well, it depends on how badly they don't want me to leave, doesn't it?

Thinking about it... my MD is probably far too stupid to realise how 
important I am, so he probably won't care. So maybe you're right.

> DO NOT tell them your motivation for moving is the pay.

Right. So you suggest I go with the "not enough technical challenge" 
route then?

>> Benny seems to think I should be earning 30K - 40K. (Working for 
>> somebody else, that is.) Personally I think that's a little ambitious 
>> for somebody of my limited skill.
> 
> Not at all, if you had spent 2 years working at your company, then maybe 
> moved up and taken some more responsibility for the networking etc (or 
> moved to a different company with a more responsible job) you could 
> easily be earning that much or more.

Heh, damn. My *mum* doesn't even earn that much, and she's seriously 
good at her job.

> The problem you have is that 
> you've spent 6 years doing essentially the same job

Agreed.

> Google "average graduate salary" and hit the first link, it's 24K euro. 

...so that's about £20?

(I don't know if Google is giving you different result from where you 
are, but mine says £23k-£24k.)

> Even with only 3% pay rises and no promotion you should be on almost 30K 
> after six years.

I don't think we've ever had a pay rise that big here. Roughly once 
every 3 years they add maybe 1.5%. (And oddly, when we get a raise 
everybody complains...?)

> I think you just started out on an exceptionally under paid job, and 
> because you've stuck at it for so long you're kind of out of touch with 
> what other technical people with 6 years experience are being paid.

Well, they did hire me explicitly because they were forced to hire 
somebody and "I'm cheap". As you say, I'm still here, so why should they 
pay me any more?

Given that I don't know anybody else, never mind anybody who works in 
computing, I have nothing to compare to...

> BTW just being a manager doesn't mean you're not technical, my manager 
> does essentially the same job as me, he just has a lot more experience 
> and does more stuff like budget and reporting with senior people.

The "traditional" approach seems to be that when you need find the 
person who's best at their job, and then make them a manager and give 
them a sack more money. Which I always thought was a bit strange, given 
that (say) knowing how to diagnose line faults really well isn't 
particularly correlated with knowing how to manage people...

Post a reply to this message

> It is most unlikely that *I* would be the best of the entire pack.

Why not? How many people do you think know Haskell?  If you turned up for 
interview with 4 other people, do you really think they would all also know 
Haskell?  How many of them do you think would have written a working 
function parser (is that what it is called?) like the one you did?  That's 
not trivial stuff.

Wasn't there some job someone posted here a while ago that specifically 
mentioned Haskell?  I'm sure that in the large companies like Nokia, MS, 
Google etc they have plenty of areas where you would fit in perfectly.

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>> It is most unlikely that *I* would be the best of the entire pack.
> 
> Why not? How many people do you think know Haskell?  If you turned up 
> for interview with 4 other people, do you really think they would all 
> also know Haskell?  How many of them do you think would have written a 
> working function parser (is that what it is called?) like the one you 
> did?  That's not trivial stuff.

Sure. But if I turn out for an interview with 4,000 other people, what 
are the chances that I'm the *only* person who knows Haskell?

> Wasn't there some job someone posted here a while ago that specifically 
> mentioned Haskell?

Yeah. I applied. And I never heard a word in reply...

(But then, it was posted on the Haskell mailing list. There I'm just a 
mino; there are people on that list who comprehend System F and so forth.)

> I'm sure that in the large companies like Nokia, MS, 
> Google etc they have plenty of areas where you would fit in perfectly.

I did actually take a look at Microsoft Research Cambridge the other 
day... but I couldn't figure out what the hell they were talking about. Heh.

Post a reply to this message

> (I don't know if Google is giving you different result from where you are, 
> but mine says £23k-£24k.)

Oops sorry getting confused with euros and pounds there, mine says 24K 
POUNDS too lol.

> I don't think we've ever had a pay rise that big here. Roughly once every 
> 3 years they add maybe 1.5%. (And oddly, when we get a raise everybody 
> complains...?)

That's terrible, haven't you noticed that the price of everything around you 
is going up by far more than 1.5% every 3 years? So you're actually earning 
LESS now than 6 years ago!

> Well, they did hire me explicitly because they were forced to hire 
> somebody and "I'm cheap". As you say, I'm still here, so why should they 
> pay me any more?

Exactly.  You never know, once you tell them you are leaving for another 
job, they might offer you a pay rise to keep you.  But by the sounds of it 
they would probably just try to get by without replacing you ;-)

> The "traditional" approach seems to be that when you need find the person 
> who's best at their job, and then make them a manager and give them a sack 
> more money.

Usually you choose the person who you think is going to be best at being 
manager, not necessarily (and often not) the best outright technical guy.

> Which I always thought was a bit strange, given that (say) knowing how to 
> diagnose line faults really well isn't particularly correlated with 
> knowing how to manage people...

But being really bad about diagnosing line faults is a far worse situation. 
I guess there are "technical managers" and purely "admin managers". 
Technical managers need to know their stuff well, otherwise what do they say 
when one of their employees has a question?

Post a reply to this message

> Sure. But if I turn out for an interview with 4,000 other people, what are 
> the chances that I'm the *only* person who knows Haskell?

If a company is interviewing 4000 people they usually have considerably more 
than 1 place up for grabs.

> (But then, it was posted on the Haskell mailing list. There I'm just a 
> mino; there are people on that list who comprehend System F and so forth.)

Yeh, applying for a Haskell job that is posted on the Haskell mailing list 
is perhaps not the most sure way to get a job!  Besides, you didn't have a 
cool updated CV back then like you have now thanks to all our input here :-)

Post a reply to this message

>> I don't think we've ever had a pay rise that big here. Roughly once 
>> every 3 years they add maybe 1.5%. (And oddly, when we get a raise 
>> everybody complains...?)
> 
> That's terrible, haven't you noticed that the price of everything around 
> you is going up by far more than 1.5% every 3 years? So you're actually 
> earning LESS now than 6 years ago!

...and I would notice prices, why? I never buy anything, remember? ;-)

(Well, except petrol. When I got my first car, it used to cost £30 to 
fill it up. Last time I did that, it cost me £60. OUCH!)

But yeah, every time a pay rise is announced, everybody complains about 
it being "a pay cut". Surely *not* getting a rise would be worse??

>> Well, they did hire me explicitly because they were forced to hire 
>> somebody and "I'm cheap". As you say, I'm still here, so why should 
>> they pay me any more?
> 
> Exactly.  You never know, once you tell them you are leaving for another 
> job, they might offer you a pay rise to keep you.  But by the sounds of 
> it they would probably just try to get by without replacing you ;-)

Heh. Part of me wants to see the look on their stupid faces when they 
find out how much a "normal" technical expert wants to be paid to do the 
job I do. ;-)

But hey, I'm sure they'll find a monkey who can do the job on my salary. 
I doubt they'll be as good as me, but will the company care?

(We're talking about the company that paid for a support contract from a 
firm who's employees clearly haven't got a clue how to fix an air 
conditioning system. When we called them out, they spent 2 hours 
standing outside playing football!)

>> The "traditional" approach seems to be that when you need find the 
>> person who's best at their job, and then make them a manager and give 
>> them a sack more money.
> 
> Usually you choose the person who you think is going to be best at being 
> manager, not necessarily (and often not) the best outright technical guy.

This would make far more sense. As I understand it, being a manager is 
primarily about people skills.

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>> Sure. But if I turn out for an interview with 4,000 other people, what 
>> are the chances that I'm the *only* person who knows Haskell?
> 
> If a company is interviewing 4000 people they usually have considerably 
> more than 1 place up for grabs.

True. But it wouldn't surprise me if somewhere popular had 4,000 
applications and only a handful of actual vacancies. How many people 
apply to Nokia just in case they're hiring?

> Yeh, applying for a Haskell job that is posted on the Haskell mailing 
> list is perhaps not the most sure way to get a job!  Besides, you didn't 
> have a cool updated CV back then like you have now thanks to all our 
> input here :-)

So true! ;-)

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:
> Sure. But if I turn out for an interview with 4,000 other people, what
> are the chances that I'm the *only* person who knows Haskell?

What are the chances they'd choose only ONE person out of 4000 in such an
interview?

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:
>> That Haskell parser thing I don't even remember the name of. I understood
>> it without even knowing Haskell. I insist: put that in the Haskell wiki!
> 
> Oh, you *liked* Parsec, eh?

Not quite, more like I liked your explanation of it.

Post a reply to this message

"Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message 
news:492299cf$1@news.povray.org...

> I'll tell you why I put up with it: I have no choice. Unfortunately nobody 
> else is willing to even interview much less employ me. And I *need* money. 
> So no matter how angry I am, no matter how miserably it makes me, I have 
> to stay here.
>
> And you know what? It really sucks. Big style.
>
> I hate my life.

   Oh, be quiet. You're lucky because you have *time* to CHANGE IT!

   You're not that far from Northamton are you? Go for this job, they want 
someone quickly:

    http://www.cwjobs.co.uk/JobSearch/JobDetails.aspx?JobId=42113428&Location=32

   Look at what they're willing to pay - if you're lucky in the interview, 
you might just get the job and that money, and if you think that the 
interviewer is trying to fob you off or it's not sounding promising, then 
you could always say that you would accept something like £28,000 as a last 
resort.

  If I was in your position right now, Northampton is where I'd be heading.

     ~Steve~

Post a reply to this message

>> Oh, you *liked* Parsec, eh?
> 
> Not quite, more like I liked your explanation of it.

Yay, me! :-D

Post a reply to this message

St. wrote:

>    You're not that far from Northamton are you? Go for this job, they want 
> someone quickly:
> 
>     http://www.cwjobs.co.uk/JobSearch/JobDetails.aspx?JobId=42113428&Location=32
> 
>    Look at what they're willing to pay - if you're lucky in the interview, 
> you might just get the job and that money, and if you think that the 
> interviewer is trying to fob you off or it's not sounding promising, then 
> you could always say that you would accept something like £28,000 as a last 
> resort.
> 
>   If I was in your position right now, Northampton is where I'd be heading.

It has a flavour...

Post a reply to this message

"Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message 
news:49257a9e$1@news.povray.org...
> St. wrote:
>>   If I was in your position right now, Northampton is where I'd be 
>> heading.
>
> It has a flavour...

    It's something you could do. Go for it. I don't know how far from 
Northampton you are, (I assume you're fairly close though), but even if it 
meant a train journey, it would be worth it - well, that's better than 
driving that's for sure.

   Just take the plunge, and see what happens, and if you get it, lend me a 
tenner. ;)

     ~Steve~

Post a reply to this message

St. wrote:

>     It's something you could do. Go for it. I don't know how far from 
> Northampton you are, (I assume you're fairly close though), but even if it 
> meant a train journey, it would be worth it - well, that's better than 
> driving that's for sure.

It's pretty close. You have to drive down winding country roads and 
through several villages with low speed limits, but the actual distance 
isn't that far.

>    Just take the plunge, and see what happens, and if you get it, lend me a 
> tenner. ;)

Hee! Normal recruiters want you to *give* them a tenner, not "lend". ;-)

Post a reply to this message

"Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message 
news:49257f75$1@news.povray.org...
> St. wrote:
>
>>     It's something you could do. Go for it. I don't know how far from 
>> Northampton you are, (I assume you're fairly close though), but even if 
>> it meant a train journey, it would be worth it - well, that's better than 
>> driving that's for sure.
>
> It's pretty close. You have to drive down winding country roads and 
> through several villages with low speed limits, but the actual distance 
> isn't that far.


   Cool, even better. I know you like your driving.


>
>>    Just take the plunge, and see what happens, and if you get it, lend me 
>> a tenner. ;)
>
> Hee! Normal recruiters want you to *give* them a tenner, not "lend". ;-)

   HAHA! True, so GIVE me a tenner!  <eg>

   Are you going to go for it Andrew? Please say yes. Just think, at the end 
of *next week* you might be worth £35,000 A YEAR! And if, once you get there 
and you find that you 'hate it', well, it's no different to the job you hate 
now, but you'd be mega bucks better off  for it.

   Personally though, I think you'll be a far lot happier if you did get the 
job - you'd meet new people, (girls!), new workmates, and some of them might 
have the same interests as you. You just don't know if you don't try.

 Damn, I'd beat their door down for that job.

   ~Steve~

Post a reply to this message

"St." <dot### [at] dotcom> wrote:
>  Damn, I'd beat their door down for that job.
>
>    ~Steve~

Yeah! But with a salary of 30,000 - 35,000 there will be 4000 people applying
for the job.

BTW Andrew, did you look at the modified CV I tarted up for you? I thought that
we could have a game of "polish up the CV ping pong".

Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:
> ....unless they say "so how much are you expecting us to pay you?" ;-)

Anyone who is the first to give a number in a negotiation loses.

The right answer to this question is "what's the range you've budgetted 
for the job?"  Followed by "I can work with that."

If they ask "What did you make at the last job?" the answer is "I've 
made between $X and $Y in previous positions."  Of course, you're just 
starting out, so that's difficult. Instead a good answer is "I'd like to 
start with $X at this position."  What you made in the job you're 
leaving is irrelevant and detrimental.

Other countries, of course, may have other customs.

I'd suggest picking up a book on negotiating tactics. It'll be well 
worth the price, and easy to understand.

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
> Exactly.  You never know, once you tell them you are leaving for another 
> job, they might offer you a pay rise to keep you. 

And it's always a *terrible* idea to accept that. Because then they'll 
be looking for a replacement for you, knowing you are looking to leave. 
You get booted out on their schedule, not yours.

If you want to go that way, tell you boss you need more money, not that 
you're looking for a different job.

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:
>>> This is again untrue. The scripts don't "correct" anything,
>> You never wrote a script that fixed something?
> Nope.

So, the script that checks the CDs, or that does the pings... what did 
you do with the output of those?  Toss it away after looking at it, 
going "Hmmm, interesting."   Or did you (for example) give the ping 
report to the ISP to get them to diagnose the problem from their end?

>> Suggestion: don't put on your resume that there are a whole bunch of 
>> other more-experienced people available, either. They know that too. :-)
> 
> Right, so... why are they going to hire me again??

Because you're there, and the experienced people are happy where they 
are? :)

>>> Where do I stop? I mean, I could say I know HTML, CSS, XML, XSLT, 
>>> LaTeX, PostScript, AmigaGuide... where do you draw the line?
>>
>> Yep. Put all that in. Anything you think an employer might need.
> 
> Ooo, AmigaGuide, an obsolete markup language that predates HTML 1.0 by 
> several years. They *really* need to know about that! :-P

It shows your breadth of knowledge. If you have the room, put it in. If 
you don't, of course leave it out.

>>> Sure. But it's hard to disguise something that's actually true.
>> No doubt. But important nonetheless. :-)
> Oh sure, I'm not doubting it's importance, I'm just saying it's really 
> hard. :-(

Yep. So you need to work at it. :)

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

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Invisible wrote:
> It's pretty close. You have to drive down winding country roads and 
> through several villages with low speed limits, but the actual distance 
> isn't that far.

I'd say go interview even if you *don't* want the job. That's the best 
kind of interview. It lets you think about your interview strategies 
without the stress of actually wanting the job and being afraid to mess 
up. :-)

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

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scott wrote:
>> LOL! I suppose I could explain that it's a Turing-complete scene 
>> description language for photorealistic image and animation 
>> construction / scripting... that could sound impressive. ;-)
> 
> Actually, I only found out about POV when I was applying for a job that 
> mentioned it.  I forget the name of the company, but they did realtime 
> and pre-rendered work for car companies etc.  Of course I looked up 
> everything that was mentioned on the job advert, and well here I am :-)

Definitely mention POV. Almost everyone I've spoken to in graphics & 
programming has heard of it.

Mentioning POV on my CV was one of the things that got me my current job.

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Invisible wrote:
>>>> No, how on Earth do you imagine that they could find out your salary?
>>> They call my employer and ask them? It's not rocket science.
>> There is no way your employer would give out such information to 
>> anyone outside the company.  Even to internal employees they would 
>> never give out such information, unless authorised to do so by someone 
>> quite senior.
> Well, it depends on how badly they don't want me to leave, doesn't it?

Not really, giving out confidential information on employees to anyone 
who phones up and asks for it is almost certainly illegal.

Post a reply to this message

Bill Pragnell wrote:
> Not really, giving out confidential information on employees to anyone 
> who phones up and asks for it is almost certainly illegal.

It used to be someone could call up and say "John is looking for a job 
here and claims he makes $X. Is that about right?"  I think enough 
people got sued in the USA to make it not worth a company's risk to give 
out any sort of recommendation, review, etc anymore.  All my references 
are essentially personal references these days - people who I used to 
work for who have also moved on to new things.

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

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Darren New wrote:
> Invisible wrote:
>>>> This is again untrue. The scripts don't "correct" anything,
>>> You never wrote a script that fixed something?
>> Nope.
> 
> So, the script that checks the CDs, or that does the pings... what did 
> you do with the output of those?  Toss it away after looking at it, 
> going "Hmmm, interesting."   Or did you (for example) give the ping 
> report to the ISP to get them to diagnose the problem from their end?

The ping data I tossed away. What I really *should* do at some point is 
set it up to run constantly in the background, so it will generate 
enough data for me to draw some kind of useful conclusion. (E.g., do the 
repeated email outages I'm seeing correlate with a loss of Internet 
connectivity, or just VPN connectivity? Or is it just the email server 
itself? Obviously it never actually fails when I'm testing out my script!)

>>> Suggestion: don't put on your resume that there are a whole bunch of 
>>> other more-experienced people available, either. They know that too. :-)
>>
>> Right, so... why are they going to hire me again??
> 
> Because you're there, and the experienced people are happy where they 
> are? :)

Hmm. This requires several assumptions about the concentration of people 
having the necessary skills verses the multiplicity (and churn factor) 
of suitable positions of employment...

http://xkcd.com/309/

>> Ooo, AmigaGuide, an obsolete markup language that predates HTML 1.0 by 
>> several years. They *really* need to know about that! :-P
> 
> It shows your breadth of knowledge. If you have the room, put it in. If 
> you don't, of course leave it out.

So you think I should just put together the biggest god-damned list 
possible? Just to show off what an uber-nerd I am?

Won't that look like I just did a Google search and wrote down anything 
that looks technical?

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On 18-Nov-08 11:32, Invisible wrote:
> For the last few days, backup jobs have been failing, and I don't know 
> why. I just spent the morning poking around to try to find out why.
> 
> Hey, guess what? Several of the backup settings have magically changed 
> themselves to something completely different values.
> 
> I wonder, who could have done that? Perhaps it was the fairies? Yes, 
> that must be it. It was changed by faries.
> 
> I'm completely sure that none of this has anything at all to do with the 
> new global backup procedure document that comes into effect on the 1st 
> of December. (Notice today's date: 18 *November*. Hence, our current 
> procedure document is still in force and must be followed to the letter.)
> 
> Obviously I have no proof of who changed those settings. But I have a 
> pretty good idea.
> 
> I'm really angry right now. I've spent all this time doing workarounds 
> to try to get the backups to work and writing all these extra log 
> entries to record my actions, and the cause of the problem all along was 
> some twat in America who ****ed around with MY backup settings without 
> bothering to tell me! >:-[

We told you before that if such things happen and you don't know for 
sure who did it, you *have to* report the incident as if it is someone 
hacking your computers. You also have to report to your boss that there 
is a legal problem because you are not able to create the backups as 
specified in the documents.

Though I have the feeling that you did not do that last times and you 
won't do it now.

> I utterly fail to see how I can be held legally responsible for this 
> stuff when I apparently have no control over it. How can I face a jail 
> sentence for somebody else's actions? 

Because it is your job to notice and take action to prevent it 
happening. In your case the course of action is to restore the original 
settings and block remote access to the settings. If you can't do it in 
software you have to disable the network physically. A sort of workable 
solution that might just not interfere with standard working procedures 
is to announce to the company that your local facility will be off-line 
  sunday afternoon to create the legally required backups.

I'm sorry, but if you only complain here but take no action that makes 
you responsible. In your position you have to pass that on as fast as 
possible to your boss.

> In what universe is that fair??

Who is talking about fair?

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> So you think I should just put together the biggest god-damned list 
> possible? Just to show off what an uber-nerd I am?

Don't be silly.

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

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All this reminded me of an "amusing" resignation letter I saw on qdb...

*searches*

Can't find it, but this one is relevant too :P

<+GaidinBDJ> What format should a resignation letter be if the letter is
neither required nor expected?
<smadge1> SMS

*searches more*

Ah! bash.org, not qdb.us. Here you go:

http://www.bash.org/?719376

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"Stephen" <mcavoys_AT_aolDOT.com> wrote in message 
news:web.49258c122a1d5b9565d3b2410@news.povray.org...
> "St." <dot### [at] dotcom> wrote:
>>  Damn, I'd beat their door down for that job.
>>
>>    ~Steve~
>
> Yeah! But with a salary of 30,000 - 35,000 there will be 4000 people 
> applying
> for the job.


  No, wrong. There will be 8,000 people applying for the job in todays 
present climate.  ;)

  But, our young mascot should be in the shortlist because I have faith in 
him and I need that tenner that he promised me.

   ~Steve~




> Stephen
>

Post a reply to this message

> And it's always a *terrible* idea to accept that. Because then they'll be 
> looking for a replacement for you, knowing you are looking to leave.
> You get booted out on their schedule, not yours.

Don't know about the USA, but they certainly can't do that to you here. 
There's no way they can "boot you out" without really solid reasoning as to 
why you are not suitable for the job, it just never happens here unless 
someone has done something really bad.  If they boot you out and then employ 
someone else to do your job the company will be in BIG trouble.

The usual tactic to get rid of someone is to put them into a boring job and 
don't give them any pay rises ... oh wait hang on a minute ;-)

Post a reply to this message

Nicolas Alvarez wrote:

> http://www.bash.org/?719376

It is *not* wise to **** off your sysadmin. >:-)

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Nicolas Alvarez wrote:

> 
> http://www.bash.org/?719376
> 

XD The BOFH resigns.. :) Love it!

-- 
~Mike

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St. wrote:

>   But, our young mascot should be in the shortlist because I have faith in 
> him and I need that tenner that he promised me.

If the mascot were to *really* strut his stuff, he could get a cush job 
for sure!

-- 
~Mike

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"Mike Raiford" <"m[raiford]!at"@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:4926c42a@news.povray.org...
> St. wrote:
>
>>   But, our young mascot should be in the shortlist because I have faith 
>> in him and I need that tenner that he promised me.
>
> If the mascot were to *really* strut his stuff, he could get a cush job 
> for sure!

    Heh, yes, *we* know that, but he doesn't... (yet).  ;)

    ~Steve~


>
> -- 
> ~Mike

Post a reply to this message

Mike Raiford <"m[raiford]!at"@gmail.com> wrote:
> St. wrote:
>
> >   But, our young mascot should be in the shortlist because I have faith in
> > him and I need that tenner that he promised me.
>
> If the mascot were to *really* strut his stuff, he could get a cush job
> for sure!
>

I bet Steve still wouldn’t get his tenner :)

Stephen

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> I bet Steve still wouldn't get his tenner :)

Maybe just a beer.

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"scott" <sco### [at] scottcom> wrote in message 
news:4926c8c9$1@news.povray.org...
>> I bet Steve still wouldn't get his tenner :)
>
> Maybe just a beer.
>

 A beer would be nice! :)

   ~Steve~

Post a reply to this message

"St." <dot### [at] dotcom> wrote:
> "scott" <sco### [at] scottcom> wrote in message
> news:4926c8c9$1@news.povray.org...
> >> I bet Steve still wouldn't get his tenner :)
> >
> > Maybe just a beer.
> >
>
>  A beer would be nice! :)
>
>    ~Steve~

Just wait ‘til Wednesday :slurp:

Stephen

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"Stephen" <mcavoys_AT_aolDOT.com> wrote in message 
news:web.4926ca212a1d5b9565d3b2410@news.povray.org...
> "St." <dot### [at] dotcom> wrote:
>> "scott" <sco### [at] scottcom> wrote in message
>> news:4926c8c9$1@news.povray.org...
>> >> I bet Steve still wouldn't get his tenner :)
>> >
>> > Maybe just a beer.
>> >
>>
>>  A beer would be nice! :)
>>
>>    ~Steve~
>
> Just wait 'til Wednesday :slurp:

 LOL, yeah, but more than one :slurp: is needed...   :)

  ~Steve~


>
> Stephen
>

Post a reply to this message

"St." <dot### [at] dotcom> wrote:
> "Stephen" <mcavoys_AT_aolDOT.com> wrote in message
> news:web.4926ca212a1d5b9565d3b2410@news.povray.org...
> > "St." <dot### [at] dotcom> wrote:
> >> "scott" <sco### [at] scottcom> wrote in message
> >> news:4926c8c9$1@news.povray.org...
> >> >> I bet Steve still wouldn't get his tenner :)
> >> >
> >> > Maybe just a beer.
> >> >
> >>
> >>  A beer would be nice! :)
> >>
> >>    ~Steve~
> >
> > Just wait 'til Wednesday :slurp:
>
>  LOL, yeah, but more than one :slurp: is needed...   :)
>


Indeed! A tenners worth

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