scott wrote:

> I agree with what Paul wrote, especially the employment history.  Beef 
> it out a bit and take out the negative words like "small".

I posted a sheet of paper to two-dozen people, typed the filled in 
results into an Access database, and printed some pie charts. If you 
take out the word "small" it sounds like I did something really major.

Similarly for the scripting; copying some files from A to B isn't 
exactly rocket science. It's not like I developed a major application. 
It's just some small utilities.

> Use a 
> smaller font size if you can't fit it all on 2 sides, the one you are 
> using is quite large.

Kwi?

> Beef it out more depending on the job you are 
> applying for, eg if you are applying for a programming job then explain 
> more about the scripts and tools you've written.

Is anybody going to care that I wrote a program to copy some files 
around? I mean, we're talking about a few dozen lines of code here. It's 
not exactly GCC.

> Under your skills profile, I would actually write the complete list of 
> languages you have a "long history" with, drop the "etc" at the end.

Hmm, yes, that sentence can be misinterpretted. It makes it sound like I 
have a "long history" with the specific languages listed; I actually 
meant I just have a long history of programming in general.

> Beef out the last bullet point and 
> make it clear that you can learn new languages quickly, if they are 
> expecting you to use a language you are not proficient with this will help.

Heh. Should I include the anicdote about the time I got so bored that I 
learned PostScript in my lunch break just for something to do? ;-) I 
think it's a great story, but I'm not sure whether I should actually 
mention it.

> Bear in mind that when someone is looking at your CV they want to see 
> *evidence* of what you say you are a good at.  For everything you say 
> you do or like, try to think of something that proves you are.  eg 
> "developed a number of scripts", add afterwards something like "these 
> have been working successfully to save blah blah blah and have improved 
> reliability and uptime blah blah".  I think Paul said something similar.

Hmm, this is difficult. I've been programming for decades, but I don't 
really have anything useful to *show* for it. I suppose I could try to 
claim that the lab backup script I wrote saved us £8,000 on an extra 
BackupExec license (although that really is flexing the truth somewhat 
severely).

> Beef out the bit about working liaising with staff, especially the US 
> dudes, nowadays most companies have to deal with foreign people at some 
> time or another and it shows you can communicate effectively.  Also 
> expand the "plan future upgrades" bit, make it sound like you are part 
> of the team that is designing the network rather than just looking after 
> it.

Well I'm *supposed* to work with the US dudes, and I'm *supposed* to be 
responsible for planning future upgrades. But frankly, nobody really 
bothers to communicate with me any more. I just find out about these 
decisions when new hardware arrives on the doorstep.

> Take out the things like filing and photocopying, any monkey can (and 
> does) do that and they are interviewing you for a programmer, not an 
> office assistant.

OK.

> Take out your college diploma and GCSE results (I think you said you'd 
> already done that), and beef out your degree details if you have space. 

Do *you* see any GCSE results listed? I don't.

> It looks a bit confusing at the moment, I would group it into 1st 2nd 
> and 3rd year and then put the details under each.

You realise that the grades I mentioned are just the good ones, right? 
Most of my grades were far less stellar. (E.g., for Accounts & Auditing, 
I think I got a D-. The Research project was an F+. And several 1st year 
modules I failed outright.)

[Nitpick: It was a 4-year course.]

> If I were you I would 
> also take out the grade for your final year project, and replace it with 
> some more details about the project.  Some poeple who are looking at the 
> CV might not know what MVC stands for?

Does it matter? MVC is highly unlikely to be even remotely relevant to 
anything I'll be doing. (And it would take several paragraphs to explain.)

> If you still have space to fill, add in a small "personal hobbies" 
> section, I know some employers want to see some evidence that you have a 
> life outside of work subjects, so it can't hurt.  Just think up of a few 
> non-computing activities you've done once or twice in your life :-) 
> they're not going to ask for proof.

Hmm. Skiing? Rock climbing? SALSA?? Hahaha!

> Remember a CV is there to sell yourself, someone is going to read 20 CVs 
> and choose a few to interview, you want to do everything possible 
> (without lying obviously) to make sure they choose yours.

Yeah... I get the concept. I'm just not sure how to put across how great 
I am without it sounding like I'm blatently lying.

Post a reply to this message

> If you take out the word "small" it sounds like I did something really 
> major.

Good.

> Similarly for the scripting; copying some files from A to B isn't exactly 
> rocket science. It's not like I developed a major application. It's just 
> some small utilities.

Which you'd be surprised how few people could actually get working.  Didn't 
you write something here about that automatic ping program you wrote?  If 
you want, make a list of the titles of each small utility you wrote to help 
with your job, it shows you can.

> Kwi?

Eh?

> Heh. Should I include the anicdote about the time I got so bored that I 
> learned PostScript in my lunch break just for something to do? ;-) I think 
> it's a great story, but I'm not sure whether I should actually mention it.

Yes mention it, not in that way, but list PS as one of the languages you are 
"familiar" with, and even mention that you learnt how to use it in a couple 
of hours if it fits in.

> I suppose I could try to claim that the lab backup script I wrote saved us 
> £8,000 on an extra BackupExec license

Well go for it then, just say something like a script you wrote saved the 
company needing to buy a commerical piece of software that would have cost 
8K.  They are not going to interrogate your manager to check if this is 
exactly true, but they will probably ask you questions about it so there's 
no point in lying.

> Well I'm *supposed* to work with the US dudes, and I'm *supposed* to be 
> responsible for planning future upgrades. But frankly, nobody really 
> bothers to communicate with me any more. I just find out about these 
> decisions when new hardware arrives on the doorstep.

That's all discussion for the interview, when you can explain how you try to 
improve the way the US dudes think about backup, protocols, systems, 
documentation etc.  For the CV just put that you work with them on the 
network infrastructure etc.  In the CV you want to leave no doubt about what 
you do, make it impossible for the person reading it to think "oh well it 
looks like maybe he just does nothing each day".

> Do *you* see any GCSE results listed? I don't.

I see you said you got 3 GCSEs.  That of course leads to the question "does 
he only have 3 GCSEs? that's a bit weird.".  Take out the whole line and 
don't even mention your school.  Leave in the bit at Milton Keynes College 
if you want, but I am thinking you are a bit too old now to be listing what 
you did before University, especially as it wasn't via the normal "A levels" 
path - take it out altogether!

> You realise that the grades I mentioned are just the good ones, right?

Right, but C- sounds bad, and is worse than the others.  If they ask you in 
the interview then you can explain that the grades go down to F or G and 
that you got a C-.  A C- by itself looks bad and there's no space in the CV 
to explain.

> [Nitpick: It was a 4-year course.]

That's why I suggested making it clearer what you did each year, and it will 
then be obvious that it was a 4 year course and not force someone to check 
the years and then guess if you took a year out or whatever.

> Does it matter? MVC is highly unlikely to be even remotely relevant to 
> anything I'll be doing. (And it would take several paragraphs to explain.)

It doesn't matter if it's relevant or not, just write out the words because 
someone who doesn't know what MVC stands for is going to feel much better 
just seeing the words (even if they don't understand) compared to if they 
just see MVC.  Can you not just write a couple more sentences about the 
project, how much of your time did it take up, individual or group project 
etc?

> Hmm. Skiing? Rock climbing? SALSA?? Hahaha!

Exactly.  And photography?  Sound and music production/recording, PLAYING 
THE ORGAN!

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>> If you take out the word "small" it sounds like I did something really 
>> major.
> 
> Good.

Where I'm from, lying isn't good.

>> Similarly for the scripting; copying some files from A to B isn't 
>> exactly rocket science. It's not like I developed a major application. 
>> It's just some small utilities.
> 
> Which you'd be surprised how few people could actually get working.  
> Didn't you write something here about that automatic ping program you 
> wrote?  If you want, make a list of the titles of each small utility you 
> wrote to help with your job, it shows you can.

Mmm, OK...

>> Kwi?
> 
> Eh?

I had having trouble parsing the multiple negatives in your sentence.

>> Heh. Should I include the anicdote about the time I got so bored that 
>> I learned PostScript in my lunch break just for something to do? ;-) I 
>> think it's a great story, but I'm not sure whether I should actually 
>> mention it.
> 
> Yes mention it, not in that way, but list PS as one of the languages you 
> are "familiar" with, and even mention that you learnt how to use it in a 
> couple of hours if it fits in.

I was just listing the languages that readers are most likely to care 
about, but yeah, I guess I could add PostScript.

The point I was really trying to make is that "normal people" don't 
spend their lunch break learning new technical skills that they don't 
actually need for anything "just for the hell of it". Only seriously 
motivated people do that. (And yeah, the fact that it only took me a few 
hours to learn is good too. But motivation is surely good, eh?)

>> I suppose I could try to claim that the lab backup script I wrote 
>> saved us £8,000 on an extra BackupExec license
> 
> Well go for it then, just say something like a script you wrote saved 
> the company needing to buy a commerical piece of software that would 
> have cost 8K.  They are not going to interrogate your manager to check 
> if this is exactly true, but they will probably ask you questions about 
> it so there's no point in lying.

I'd mention that time I saved us £16k for not having to call out that 
Oracle consultant when our DB died... but it's not massively relevant here.

>> Well I'm *supposed* to work with the US dudes, and I'm *supposed* to 
>> be responsible for planning future upgrades. But frankly, nobody 
>> really bothers to communicate with me any more. I just find out about 
>> these decisions when new hardware arrives on the doorstep.
> 
> That's all discussion for the interview, when you can explain how you 
> try to improve the way the US dudes think about backup, protocols, 
> systems, documentation etc.  For the CV just put that you work with them 
> on the network infrastructure etc.

M'okay.

> In the CV you want to leave no doubt 
> about what you do, make it impossible for the person reading it to think 
> "oh well it looks like maybe he just does nothing each day".

The trouble is... I *do* do nothing each day! o_O

>> Do *you* see any GCSE results listed? I don't.
> 
> I see you said you got 3 GCSEs.

Hmmm... well spotted.

> That of course leads to the question 
> "does he only have 3 GCSEs? that's a bit weird.".  Take out the whole 
> line and don't even mention your school.  Leave in the bit at Milton 
> Keynes College if you want, but I am thinking you are a bit too old now 
> to be listing what you did before University, especially as it wasn't 
> via the normal "A levels" path - take it out altogether!

OK. That should free up some space...

>> You realise that the grades I mentioned are just the good ones, right?
> 
> Right, but C- sounds bad, and is worse than the others.  If they ask you 
> in the interview then you can explain that the grades go down to F or G 
> and that you got a C-.  A C- by itself looks bad and there's no space in 
> the CV to explain.

OK then.

>> [Nitpick: It was a 4-year course.]
> 
> That's why I suggested making it clearer what you did each year, and it 
> will then be obvious that it was a 4 year course and not force someone 
> to check the years and then guess if you took a year out or whatever.

Alright...

>> Does it matter? MVC is highly unlikely to be even remotely relevant to 
>> anything I'll be doing. (And it would take several paragraphs to 
>> explain.)
> 
> It doesn't matter if it's relevant or not, just write out the words 
> because someone who doesn't know what MVC stands for is going to feel 
> much better just seeing the words (even if they don't understand) 
> compared to if they just see MVC.  Can you not just write a couple more 
> sentences about the project, how much of your time did it take up, 
> individual or group project etc?

Well MVC is.. uh... a GUI technology. And my project was to make it so 
that the UI can be on a different machine to the backend. But with less 
network overhead than X11 / VNC / RDP / other bitmap-based technologies, 
and more responsiveness than HTML over HTTP.

(Of course, today people don't care any more. They just use HTTP for 
*everything*. God that sucks...)

>> Hmm. Skiing? Rock climbing? SALSA?? Hahaha!
> 
> Exactly.  And photography?  Sound and music production/recording, 
> PLAYING THE ORGAN!

OMG YES, PIPE ORGANS FTW! HOW CAN THEY NOT HIRE ME?! :-D

Post a reply to this message

Paul Fuller wrote:

> Your actual work history over 6 years amounts to 5 bullet points and 
> less than half a page !

Hmm. I should probably change the part where I says I have "5 years' 
experience". Let's make it at least look like I can *count*! o_O

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> I've attached my CV. Please don't laugh. :-P
>
> I don't *have* a covering letter. If I find a company interesting enough
> for me to contact them directly, I write something from scratch.
> (Depending on how I heard of them, what line of work they're in, how
> closely my skills match what they seem to be looking for, etc.)
>

Hi Andrew

It is a good idea to tailor your covering letter for each job.
Here is my attempt to tart up your CV. Of course as others have said you need to
fill out your job description.
Actually I think that I have used too many “I’s” but it is a first pass :)

Good luck


Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Attachments:
Download 'cv-v5-programmer-smca.doc.dat' (30 KB)

Invisible wrote:
> I posted a sheet of paper to two-dozen people, typed the filled in 
> results into an Access database, and printed some pie charts. If you 
> take out the word "small" it sounds like I did something really major.

It doesn't matter!  Do you think the HR person reading the CV can do 
that?  Do you think others applying for the job are going to downplay 
their skills?

> Similarly for the scripting; copying some files from A to B isn't 
> exactly rocket science. It's not like I developed a major application. 

> It's just some small utilities.

No, it's an important backup utility.

> Is anybody going to care that I wrote a program to copy some files 
> around? I mean, we're talking about a few dozen lines of code here. It'
s 
> not exactly GCC.

Yes. It's an important backup and data access utility. When you get to 
the interview, they may or may not ask you.

>> Under your skills profile, I would actually write the complete list of
 
>> languages you have a "long history" with, drop the "etc" at the end.
> 
> Hmm, yes, that sentence can be misinterpretted. It makes it sound like 
I 
> have a "long history" with the specific languages listed; I actually 
> meant I just have a long history of programming in general.

That's good. You can explain that at the interview. :-)

> Heh. Should I include the anicdote about the time I got so bored that I
 
> learned PostScript in my lunch break just for something to do? ;-) I 
> think it's a great story, but I'm not sure whether I should actually 
> mention it.

Mention it at the interview.

> Hmm, this is difficult. I've been programming for decades, but I don't 

> really have anything useful to *show* for it. I suppose I could try to 

> claim that the lab backup script I wrote saved us £8,000 on an extra 

> BackupExec license (although that really is flexing the truth somewhat 

> severely).

Yes. That's exactly the attitude to take. Redo the whole resume with 
that sort of thought in mind.

> Well I'm *supposed* to work with the US dudes, and I'm *supposed* to be
 
> responsible for planning future upgrades. 

You're responsible. You don't have to downplay that either. :-)

> You realise that the grades I mentioned are just the good ones, right? 


That's the point of a resume.

> Most of my grades were far less stellar. (E.g., for Accounts & Auditing
, 
> I think I got a D-. The Research project was an F+. And several 1st yea
r 
> modules I failed outright.)

As an aside, I've never heard of an F+ before. :-)

> Does it matter? MVC is highly unlikely to be even remotely relevant to 

> anything I'll be doing. (And it would take several paragraphs to explai
n.)

Designed and implemented advanced modular user input and presentation 
framework.

> Hmm. Skiing? Rock climbing? SALSA?? Hahaha!

Pipe organ recitals!

> Yeah... I get the concept. I'm just not sure how to put across how grea
t 
> I am without it sounding like I'm blatently lying.

You just don't say anything negative.  Again, don't take this as 
anything more than friendly advice, but try this sort of thing:


Skills:

Extensive knowledge of and passion for a diverse range of topics in 
computing, mathematics and science, including cryptology, 3D graphics, 
artificial neural networks, symbolic computation, and numerous other 
related fields.

Eighteen year history of .... then list every language you could write 
Hello World in. :-)

Passion for teaching and mentoring, with a strong track record of 
explaining complex topics in understandable ways. Samples available on 
request.

Responsible for keeping the UK computing center operational for 30 staff 

members using 50 workstations. The systems included four servers, a 
local LAN, and Internet connectivity. Responsibilities included ensuring 

compliance with extensive government regulations, integration with the 
US offices overseas, and all forms of technical support for computer 
operations. This includes creation and maintenance of database structure 

and operations (including assurance of the safety of irreplacable 
medical data) and creation of numerous custom programs for maintenance 
of file and database information, saving 8000 via automation in the year 

they were implemented. <Like they're going to check that?>

Created and maintained computer policies and procedures, documenting 
same. Documents were approved and even complimented by the auditors of 
<insert company/government agency here>.

Created and executed client surveys to <what?> gather data on new yadda 
yadda, resulting in retention of several major clients.  <You can't just 

say you did it - add in what the result was, even if you have to stretch>


1998-2002
Smalltalk and Java, a pure interpreted OO language and a popular 
powerful compiled OO language.  Also classwork on theory and 
practicalities of database design and organization, as well as a 
practical unit using the Oracle database product.

Also studied interfacing these technologies to the WWW, with detailed 
studies of both run-time performance and developer efficiency. Classes 
on operating systems covered file system design and scheduling dispatch. 

Computer graphics covered both high-quality ray tracing and high-speed 
polygonal rendering with modern graphics cards.

Final year project was to research, design, and implement a distributed 
user interface component using best practices in modularity and efficienc
y.


You can't just say "I did C and Pascal."  You have to say what *you* 
did, not what Ritchie and Wirth did. :-) Pretend the person looking at 
your resume didn't go to school for computers and doesn't even know what 

any of those words mean.

Also, at least in the USA, a lot of places now will just filter on 
keywords. If they're looking for someone to do Oracle databases, they 
toss any resume that doesn't have to word "Oracle" in it without looking 

at it.  So at the bottom of my resume, I put in fairly small print all 
the OSes, languages, frameworks, etc that I'm familiar with, just as a 
list of "technology summary".  It gets you past the automatic 
resume-spam filter.


-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:
> Where I'm from, lying isn't good.

It's not lying. It's no more lying than leaving out the bad grades. 
Whether the scripts were small or not is irrelevant. Nobody else could 
have done it, and it saved the company $8000. The people interviewing 
you care about that sort of thing, not how many lines it took.

> Mmm, OK...

And include it as "wrote dozens of custom utility programs to diagnose 
and automatically correct problems, including network diagnostics 
superior to those employed by our ISP."  ;-)

> I was just listing the languages that readers are most likely to care 
> about, but yeah, I guess I could add PostScript.

Add everything you know. You're trying to get a job where knowing stuff 
is important. The more you list, the more obvious it is you can learn 
stuff.

> The point I was really trying to make is that "normal people" don't 
> spend their lunch break learning new technical skills that they don't 
> actually need for anything "just for the hell of it". Only seriously 
> motivated people do that. 

And seriously smart people.

> I'd mention that time I saved us £16k for not having to call out that
 
> Oracle consultant when our DB died... but it's not massively relevant h
ere.

It's extremely relevant. That's £2400 they can add to your salary when 

you get hired there, because that's how much you'll save them.

>> In the CV you want to leave no doubt about what you do, make it 
>> impossible for the person reading it to think "oh well it looks like 
>> maybe he just does nothing each day".
> 
> The trouble is... I *do* do nothing each day! o_O

But you're not supposed to show that. You want them to ask you why 
you're looking for a new job, at which point you can say "this one isn't 

challenging enough, and I want to stretch my capabilities."

> Well MVC is.. uh... a GUI technology. And my project was to make it so 

> that the UI can be on a different machine to the backend. But with less
 
> network overhead than X11 / VNC / RDP / other bitmap-based technologies
, 
> and more responsiveness than HTML over HTTP.

Yep. Describe it that way. You don't even have to mention MVC. Just 
describe what it does and why it's important, just like you did there. 
"Allows high-quality interactive user graphics to be distributed across 
the network with less overhead and more responsiveness than competing 
mechanisms, programmed using best industry practices of modularity and 
maintainability, as befits an academic exercise."

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

Post a reply to this message

Darren New wrote:

> Do you think others applying for the job are going to downplay 
> their skills?

Now there's an interesting problem. These guys will have stacks of 
people applying to them who are *lying through their teeth* about their 
actual capabilities. How do I distinguish myself from these frauds?

>> Is anybody going to care that I wrote a program to copy some files 
>> around? I mean, we're talking about a few dozen lines of code here. 
>> It's not exactly GCC.
> 
> Yes. It's an important backup and data access utility. When you get to 
> the interview, they may or may not ask you.

M'ok, whatever you say...

>> Heh. Should I include the anicdote about the time I got so bored that 
>> I learned PostScript in my lunch break just for something to do? ;-) I 
>> think it's a great story, but I'm not sure whether I should actually 
>> mention it.
> 
> Mention it at the interview.

OK.

>> Hmm, this is difficult. I've been programming for decades, but I don't 
>> really have anything useful to *show* for it. I suppose I could try to 
>> claim that the lab backup script I wrote saved us £8,000 on an extra 
>> BackupExec license (although that really is flexing the truth somewhat 
>> severely).
> 
> Yes. That's exactly the attitude to take. Redo the whole resume with 
> that sort of thought in mind.

What, severely exaggerating the truth throughout?

>> Well I'm *supposed* to work with the US dudes, and I'm *supposed* to 
>> be responsible for planning future upgrades. 
> 
> You're responsible. You don't have to downplay that either. :-)

Heh, OK.

>> You realise that the grades I mentioned are just the good ones, right? 
> 
> That's the point of a resume.

My point being that only a few of my grades *were* good. Most of them 
weren't.

>> Most of my grades were far less stellar. (E.g., for Accounts & 
>> Auditing, I think I got a D-. The Research project was an F+. And 
>> several 1st year modules I failed outright.)
> 
> As an aside, I've never heard of an F+ before. :-)

IIRC, work was graded on a scale from A down to F, with U meaning 
"ungraded" - i.e., you failed completely.

> Pipe organ recitals!

LOL! As if anybody is going to care... but sure, I can put that in. ;-)

> Eighteen year history of .... then list every language you could write 
> Hello World in. :-)

Erm, I can see this getting me into trouble. It's unwise to claim 
extensive experience with something unless you really do *have* that 
experience.

> Passion for teaching and mentoring, with a strong track record of 
> explaining complex topics in understandable ways. Samples available on 
> request.

Er, dude... like *what*? :-P

> Responsible for keeping the UK computing center operational for 30 staff 
> members using 50 workstations. The systems included four servers, a 
> local LAN, and Internet connectivity. Responsibilities included ensuring 
> compliance with extensive government regulations,

Do I mention the precise regulations in question? In case somebody might 
have heard of them?

> saving 8000 via automation in the year 
> they were implemented. <Like they're going to check that?>

No, but they're going to quizz me about it, so I'd better have a good 
story to tell them.

> Created and maintained computer policies and procedures, documenting 
> same. Documents were approved and even complimented by the auditors of 
> <insert company/government agency here>.

I don't think I'd actually be able to track down exactly which auditors 
specifically mentioned my documents. (I don't think it survived in 
documented form, it was just mentioned informally in the final 
debriefing, which isn't recorded anywhere.)

> Created and executed client surveys to <what?> gather data on new yadda 
> yadda, resulting in retention of several major clients.  <You can't just 
> say you did it - add in what the result was, even if you have to stretch>

We're talking about a vuluntary sector company with a grand total of 3 
employees (not including me) and about 14 "customers". There's nothing 
"major" about it. :-P

What I *could* claim is that the data I produced helped them 
successfully secure additional government funding. (This is why they 
wanted the stats - but I have no clue whether they actually got any 
extra funding as a result.)

> 1998-2002
> Smalltalk and Java, a pure interpreted OO language and a popular 
> powerful compiled OO language.  Also classwork on theory and 
> practicalities of database design and organization, as well as a 
> practical unit using the Oracle database product.
> 
> Also studied interfacing these technologies to the WWW, with detailed 
> studies of both run-time performance and developer efficiency. Classes 
> on operating systems covered file system design and scheduling dispatch. 
> Computer graphics covered both high-quality ray tracing and high-speed 
> polygonal rendering with modern graphics cards.

The last two there being particularly relevant for the company I'm about 
to try to get attention from. (They design stuff like low-end 3D 
hardware and MPEG decoders.)

> You can't just say "I did C and Pascal."  You have to say what *you* 
> did, not what Ritchie and Wirth did. :-) Pretend the person looking at 
> your resume didn't go to school for computers and doesn't even know what 
> any of those words mean.

Whohewho? o_O

> Also, at least in the USA, a lot of places now will just filter on 
> keywords. If they're looking for someone to do Oracle databases, they 
> toss any resume that doesn't have to word "Oracle" in it without looking 
> at it.  So at the bottom of my resume, I put in fairly small print all 
> the OSes, languages, frameworks, etc that I'm familiar with, just as a 
> list of "technology summary".  It gets you past the automatic 
> resume-spam filter.

Maybe I should construct a finite-order Markov model from past 
successful CVs and use that to auto-generate apparently valid English 
content? :-D

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

>> Where I'm from, lying isn't good.
> 
> It's not lying. It's no more lying than leaving out the bad grades.

Technically yes. But claiming to have "extensive knowledge of AutoCAD" 
when really you just work filling paper in an office where AudoCAD is 
used with be an exaggeration to the point of lying. Similarly, claiming 
to have done a large-scale software development exercise when all you 
really did was 20 minutes' work is rather dishonest.

> Whether the scripts were small or not is irrelevant. Nobody else could 
> have done it, and it saved the company $8000. The people interviewing 
> you care about that sort of thing, not how many lines it took.

Well, maybe.

> And include it as "wrote dozens of custom utility programs to diagnose 
> and automatically correct problems, including network diagnostics 
> superior to those employed by our ISP."  ;-)

This is again untrue. The scripts don't "correct" anything, they merely 
monitor, and for a fee our ISP can probably provide us with all kinds of 
far superior software and hardware - and even personnel to run it. (It's 
amazing what companies will do for you if you pay them enough money...)

> Add everything you know. You're trying to get a job where knowing stuff 
> is important. The more you list, the more obvious it is you can learn 
> stuff.

So, what, just dump a giant laundry list of stuff?

Where do I stop? I mean, I could say I know HTML, CSS, XML, XSLT, LaTeX, 
PostScript, AmigaGuide... where do you draw the line?

>> The point I was really trying to make is that "normal people" don't 
>> spend their lunch break learning new technical skills that they don't 
>> actually need for anything "just for the hell of it". Only seriously 
>> motivated people do that. 
> 
> And seriously smart people.

I hypothesize that people become seriously smart by being seriously 
motivated. ;-)

>> I'd mention that time I saved us £16k for not having to call out that 
>> Oracle consultant when our DB died... but it's not massively relevant 
>> here.
> 
> It's extremely relevant. That's £2400 they can add to your salary when 
> you get hired there, because that's how much you'll save them.

If I was applying for an Oracle role... sure. But I'm not.

>> The trouble is... I *do* do nothing each day! o_O
> 
> But you're not supposed to show that.

Sure. But it's hard to disguise something that's actually true.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> This is again untrue. The scripts don't "correct" anything,

You never wrote a script that fixed something?

> and for a fee our ISP can probably provide us with all kinds of 
> far superior software and hardware - and even personnel to run it. (It'
s 
> amazing what companies will do for you if you pay them enough money...)


Sure. And you did it without paying the fee. That's the point.

Suggestion: don't put on your resume that there are a whole bunch of 
other more-experienced people available, either. They know that too. :-)

> Where do I stop? I mean, I could say I know HTML, CSS, XML, XSLT, LaTeX
, 
> PostScript, AmigaGuide... where do you draw the line?

Yep. Put all that in. Anything you think an employer might need.

> I hypothesize that people become seriously smart by being seriously 
> motivated. ;-)

They become seriously educated by being smart and motivated. :-)

>> It's extremely relevant. That's £2400 they can add to your salary wh
en 
>> you get hired there, because that's how much you'll save them.
> 
> If I was applying for an Oracle role... sure. But I'm not.

How do you know you're not?  The company you're applying for may have an 

unadvertised opening for someone translating LaTeX documents stored in 
their Oracle database into HTML and PostScript.

>>> The trouble is... I *do* do nothing each day! o_O
>> But you're not supposed to show that.
> Sure. But it's hard to disguise something that's actually true.

No doubt. But important nonetheless. :-)

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Now there's an interesting problem. These guys will have stacks of 
> people applying to them who are *lying through their teeth* about their 
> actual capabilities. 

And they know that!

> How do I distinguish myself from these frauds?

At the interview.

>> Yes. That's exactly the attitude to take. Redo the whole resume with 
>> that sort of thought in mind.
> 
> What, severely exaggerating the truth throughout?

Yes. Bluntly, yes.

>>> Well I'm *supposed* to work with the US dudes, and I'm *supposed* to 
>>> be responsible for planning future upgrades. 
>>
>> You're responsible. You don't have to downplay that either. :-)
> 
> Heh, OK.
> 
>>> You realise that the grades I mentioned are just the good ones, right? 
>>
>> That's the point of a resume.
> 
> My point being that only a few of my grades *were* good. Most of them 
> weren't.

Yes. That's the point of a resume vs a transcript. ;-)

> IIRC, work was graded on a scale from A down to F, with U meaning 
> "ungraded" - i.e., you failed completely.

The only "incomplete" I got was when I went to the wrong class all 
semester. (Well, it was the right class, I just filled out the wrong 
code number when I signed up. :-)

>> Pipe organ recitals!
> LOL! As if anybody is going to care... but sure, I can put that in. ;-)

You know, if the interviewer also plays the organ, you're right in. 
Seriously. It's people.

>> Eighteen year history of .... then list every language you could write 
>> Hello World in. :-)
> 
> Erm, I can see this getting me into trouble. It's unwise to claim 
> extensive experience with something unless you really do *have* that 
> experience.

You only need extensive experience in some of the stuff. "I have 
extensive experience in many languages. I know blah, blah, and blah." 
Say it in a way that implies you have extensive experience in all of 
them, but which can be read to mean you have extensive experience in 
some of them.

What's the worst that happens: They don't hire you.

>> Passion for teaching and mentoring, with a strong track record of 
>> explaining complex topics in understandable ways. Samples available on 
>> request.
> 
> Er, dude... like *what*? :-P

All the posts you've put up here?  About Haskell and everything else?

>> Responsible for keeping the UK computing center operational for 30 
>> staff members using 50 workstations. The systems included four 
>> servers, a local LAN, and Internet connectivity. Responsibilities 
>> included ensuring compliance with extensive government regulations,
> 
> Do I mention the precise regulations in question? In case somebody might 
> have heard of them?

I think you might mention the department or agency that does the 
regulation, if it's something random people outside the agency would 
recognise.

>> saving 8000 via automation in the year they were implemented. <Like 
>> they're going to check that?>
> 
> No, but they're going to quizz me about it, so I'd better have a good 
> story to tell them.

Certainly. :-)

>> Created and maintained computer policies and procedures, documenting 
>> same. Documents were approved and even complimented by the auditors of 
>> <insert company/government agency here>.
> 
> I don't think I'd actually be able to track down exactly which auditors 
> specifically mentioned my documents. 

Well, you know if it was a company, or a government agency, or what, yes?

> What I *could* claim is that the data I produced helped them 
> successfully secure additional government funding. 

There you go.

"Designed, administered, and analyzed a customer satisfaction survey 
that aided in obtaining additional funding from government sources."

> The last two there being particularly relevant for the company I'm about 
> to try to get attention from. (They design stuff like low-end 3D 
> hardware and MPEG decoders.)

There ya go.

>> You can't just say "I did C and Pascal."  You have to say what *you* 
>> did, not what Ritchie and Wirth did. :-) Pretend the person looking at 
>> your resume didn't go to school for computers and doesn't even know 
>> what any of those words mean.
> 
> Whohewho? o_O

http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=wirth

> Maybe I should construct a finite-order Markov model from past 
> successful CVs and use that to auto-generate apparently valid English 
> content? :-D

Why not?

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:33:16 +0000, Invisible wrote:

> It says "up to" 25K. (In other words, that's not what they'll be paying
> *me*.) There's absolutely no guarantee it'll be any less stressful. It
> could in fact be far *more* stressful.

There are no guarantees in life - that's the way it is.  But like I've 
said before, Andy, DON'T decide for a prospective employer what you're 
worth - THAT'S THEIR JOB, NOT YOURS.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:04:42 +0000, Invisible wrote:

> I'm not seeing any specific job that I can tick ALL the boxes for

YOU DON'T HAVE TO TICK ALL THE BOXES!  THE DECISION TO HIRE YOU OR NOT 
HIRE YOU IS THEIR JOB, NOT YOURS!!!!!

(Sorry for the all caps, but I really do feel like I need to yell this).

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> Add everything you know. You're trying to get a job where knowing stuff
>> is important. The more you list, the more obvious it is you can learn
>> stuff.
> 
> So, what, just dump a giant laundry list of stuff?
> 
> Where do I stop? I mean, I could say I know HTML, CSS, XML, XSLT, LaTeX,
> PostScript, AmigaGuide... where do you draw the line?

Add POV-Ray?

>>> I'd mention that time I saved us £16k for not having to call out that
>>> Oracle consultant when our DB died... but it's not massively relevant
>>> here.
>> 
>> It's extremely relevant. That's £2400 they can add to your salary when
>> you get hired there, because that's how much you'll save them.
> 
> If I was applying for an Oracle role... sure. But I'm not.

Do you make a custom CV for every job you apply for?

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:46:55 +0000, Invisible wrote:

> Neither of these things have saved anybody money. The scripts save my
> time. (Which means I can spent more time surfing the web - but I don't
> have to mention that part.)

This may come as a shock to you, but TIME = MONEY.  Yes, it's true.

You say they pay you 14K per year.  If we break that down into 40 hour 
weeks, 52 weeks per year, that works out to a certain hourly rate you're 
paid.

Now, if you write a script that saves you an hour a day twice a week, 
that's 2 hours per week, 104 hours per year.  Multiply by your hourly 
wage, and you get a dollar figure.  That's money saved.

A prospective employer doesn't need to know how you use the time you've 
saved.  They need to know that you can write scripts that save the 
company money and effort.

I spend some of my time each day doing data entry for an exam 
registration system (my job changed a couple months ago, and earlier this 
month, I moved to a completely different role).  I'm looking to automate 
that process.  It takes me maybe an hour or two every couple of days to 
do what I have to do with the data entry portion of it.  If I can get it 
automated, that saves the company several thousand dollars per year in 
data entry expenses, and I can take on other more interesting tasks that 
might otherwise not get done.

You do a lot of math - so DO THE MATHS.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 10:03:27 +0000, Invisible wrote:

>> If I were you I would
>> also take out the grade for your final year project, and replace it
>> with some more details about the project.  Some poeple who are looking
>> at the CV might not know what MVC stands for?
> 
> Does it matter? MVC is highly unlikely to be even remotely relevant to
> anything I'll be doing. (And it would take several paragraphs to
> explain.)

Not your decision to make.  Don't use acronyms - define them at least 
once.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:11:46 +0000, Invisible wrote:

> scott wrote:
>>> If you take out the word "small" it sounds like I did something really
>>> major.
>> 
>> Good.
> 
> Where I'm from, lying isn't good.

It isn't lying to say "I wrote scripts that saved the company money" if 
that's what you actually did.  It isn't lying to say "I created charts 
for 'x'" if you created charts.

>> Yes mention it, not in that way, but list PS as one of the languages
>> you are "familiar" with, and even mention that you learnt how to use it
>> in a couple of hours if it fits in.
> 
> I was just listing the languages that readers are most likely to care
> about, but yeah, I guess I could add PostScript.

How many times do you have to be told:  Don't decide what's important for 
your interviewer - let them decide that.  Just provide them with the 
facts.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:36:20 +0000, Invisible wrote:

> The head of IT wants me to file a deviation record for this. Rather
> than, you know, put the settings back to what they should be until the
> SOP actually comes into force.

DO IT.  If it isn't written down, it never happened.

> Because let's face it, signing a bit of paper saying "hey, we're sorry"
> makes it all OK, doesn't it?

No, but it does create a paper trail.  If it continues to happen, there's 
a paper trail and that helps cover your butt if and when things go pear-
shaped.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> Pipe organ recitals!
> 
> LOL! As if anybody is going to care... but sure, I can put that in. ;-)

Google would care. I heard they want people with wide interests. Playing an
organ means you have some interests outside computers.

>> Eighteen year history of .... then list every language you could write
>> Hello World in. :-)
> 
> Erm, I can see this getting me into trouble. It's unwise to claim
> extensive experience with something unless you really do *have* that
> experience.

When did Darren tell you to say "extensive experience"?

>> Passion for teaching and mentoring, with a strong track record of
>> explaining complex topics in understandable ways. Samples available on
>> request.
> 
> Er, dude... like *what*? :-P

That Haskell parser thing I don't even remember the name of. I understood it
without even knowing Haskell. I insist: put that in the Haskell wiki!

> The last two there being particularly relevant for the company I'm about
> to try to get attention from. (They design stuff like low-end 3D
> hardware and MPEG decoders.)

Again, it doesn't matter if it's relevant *for that company*; you aren't
going to make custom CVs for each job application.

>> You can't just say "I did C and Pascal."  You have to say what *you*
>> did, not what Ritchie and Wirth did. :-) Pretend the person looking at
>> your resume didn't go to school for computers and doesn't even know what
>> any of those words mean.
> 
> Whohewho? o_O

Ritchie is one of the creators of C. Never heard of Wirth, but from the
sentence I'd guess he made Pascal...

Post a reply to this message

Darren New wrote:
> http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=wirth

Awesome!

Post a reply to this message

Nicolas Alvarez wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=wirth
> 
> Awesome!

Indeed. I was *highly* amused. Even better than JFGI.

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

Post a reply to this message

Nicolas Alvarez wrote:
>>> You can't just say "I did C and Pascal."  You have to say what *you*
>>> did, not what Ritchie and Wirth did. :-) Pretend the person looking at
>>> your resume didn't go to school for computers and doesn't even know what
>>> any of those words mean.
>> Whohewho? o_O
> 
> Ritchie is one of the creators of C. Never heard of Wirth, but from the
> sentence I'd guess he made Pascal...
> 

There was a funny saying about Wirth.  It goes something like 'He was 
called by value not by reference'.

It was big with the compiler writers.

Post a reply to this message

>> This is again untrue. The scripts don't "correct" anything,
> 
> You never wrote a script that fixed something?

Nope.

> Suggestion: don't put on your resume that there are a whole bunch of 
> other more-experienced people available, either. They know that too. :-)

Right, so... why are they going to hire me again??

>> Where do I stop? I mean, I could say I know HTML, CSS, XML, XSLT, 
>> LaTeX, PostScript, AmigaGuide... where do you draw the line?
> 
> Yep. Put all that in. Anything you think an employer might need.

Ooo, AmigaGuide, an obsolete markup language that predates HTML 1.0 by 
several years. They *really* need to know about that! :-P

>> Sure. But it's hard to disguise something that's actually true.
> 
> No doubt. But important nonetheless. :-)

Oh sure, I'm not doubting it's importance, I'm just saying it's really 
hard. :-(

Post a reply to this message

Nicolas Alvarez wrote:

> Add POV-Ray?

LOL! I suppose I could explain that it's a Turing-complete scene 
description language for photorealistic image and animation construction 
/ scripting... that could sound impressive. ;-)

Post a reply to this message

>> Now there's an interesting problem. These guys will have stacks of 
>> people applying to them who are *lying through their teeth* about 
>> their actual capabilities. 
> 
> And they know that!
> 
>> How do I distinguish myself from these frauds?
> 
> At the interview.

Not if you don't get that far because all the lier's CVs looked way 
better. :-(

>>> Yes. That's exactly the attitude to take. Redo the whole resume with 
>>> that sort of thought in mind.
>>
>> What, severely exaggerating the truth throughout?
> 
> Yes. Bluntly, yes.

Isn't that illegal?

>> My point being that only a few of my grades *were* good. Most of them 
>> weren't.
> 
> Yes. That's the point of a resume vs a transcript. ;-)

And *my* point is that I don't have many grades worth mentioning, so if 
I split up my degree by year, it's gonna look pretty thin.

> The only "incomplete" I got was when I went to the wrong class all 
> semester. (Well, it was the right class, I just filled out the wrong 
> code number when I signed up. :-)

My "most impressive" grade was a D-. That doesn't sound very impressive, 
until you realise that I MISSED THE FREAKIN' EXAM! Not only did I manage 
to still pass the module, but I actually got a result several grades 
higher than a fail, on the strength of my coursework alone! (I actually 
missed *all* of the exams that term, and as a result failed everything 
but the programming.)

>>> Pipe organ recitals!
>> LOL! As if anybody is going to care... but sure, I can put that in. ;-)
> 
> You know, if the interviewer also plays the organ, you're right in. 
> Seriously. It's people.

You know... I *did* meet this guy from the Internet once who's 
philosophy on life is that if you enjoy the music of Pink Floyd, you 
must fundamentally be an OK sort of person. Like, "sure, he murdered his 
wife with a golf trophy. But he *loved* Obscured by Clouds, so he can't 
have been that bad a person." WTF?

>>> Eighteen year history of .... then list every language you could 
>>> write Hello World in. :-)
>>
>> Erm, I can see this getting me into trouble. It's unwise to claim 
>> extensive experience with something unless you really do *have* that 
>> experience.
> 
> You only need extensive experience in some of the stuff. "I have 
> extensive experience in many languages. I know blah, blah, and blah." 
> Say it in a way that implies you have extensive experience in all of 
> them, but which can be read to mean you have extensive experience in 
> some of them.
> 
> What's the worst that happens: They don't hire you.

Er, no... They hire you, find out you're lying, and press criminal 
charges for fraud. o_O

>>> Passion for teaching and mentoring, with a strong track record of 
>>> explaining complex topics in understandable ways. Samples available 
>>> on request.
>>
>> Er, dude... like *what*? :-P
> 
> All the posts you've put up here?  About Haskell and everything else?

Perhaps you mean all the posts I've put up here that expire after 30 
days? And besides, how many people have actually learned Haskell? So 
far, I think Warp is about the only person. (And he says he did that by 
reading tutorials online, not from anything *I* wrote.)

>> Whohewho? o_O
> 
> http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=wirth

:-P

Post a reply to this message

Paul Fuller wrote:

> There was a funny saying about Wirth.  It goes something like 'He was 
> called by value not by reference'.
> 
> It was big with the compiler writers.

In that case, I guess one could say that people call Simon P Jones by 
need, not by value...

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:

> There are no guarantees in life - that's the way it is.  But like I've 
> said before, Andy, DON'T decide for a prospective employer what you're 
> worth - THAT'S THEIR JOB, NOT YOURS.

...unless they say "so how much are you expecting us to pay you?" ;-)

Post a reply to this message

>>> Eighteen year history of .... then list every language you could write
>>> Hello World in. :-)
>> Erm, I can see this getting me into trouble. It's unwise to claim
>> extensive experience with something unless you really do *have* that
>> experience.
> 
> When did Darren tell you to say "extensive experience"?

18 years sounds pretty "extensive" to me. ;-)

>>> Passion for teaching and mentoring, with a strong track record of
>>> explaining complex topics in understandable ways. Samples available on
>>> request.
>> Er, dude... like *what*? :-P
> 
> That Haskell parser thing I don't even remember the name of. I understood it
> without even knowing Haskell. I insist: put that in the Haskell wiki!

Oh, you *liked* Parsec, eh?

(Since almost nobody commented on it, I figured nobody was interested...)

Post a reply to this message

>> There are no guarantees in life - that's the way it is.  But like I've 
>> said before, Andy, DON'T decide for a prospective employer what you're 
>> worth - THAT'S THEIR JOB, NOT YOURS.
>
> ...unless they say "so how much are you expecting us to pay you?" ;-)

Actually here in Germany it's quite different to the UK, no job advert ever 
says what salary they are going to pay, not even a range.  You have to tell 
them what you are expecting.

Also watch out because when they are interviewing you they will likely ask 
what your current salary is.  Make sure you have a figure in your head for 
when they ask you this question.  DO NOT tell them your real salary because 
it is way lower than someone like you deserves.  By answering this question 
with 25K instead of 15K you will have just earnt yourself an extra 10K per 
year for the rest of your life.  No matter how much you hate lying, you'd be 
really really stupid to tell them the truth, because they are only going to 
pay you the minimum they think they need to.

Post a reply to this message

> Right, so... why are they going to hire me again??

Because nobody better applied.

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>> Right, so... why are they going to hire me again??
> 
> Because nobody better applied.

That's a *highly* improbably hypothesis.

Post a reply to this message

> LOL! I suppose I could explain that it's a Turing-complete scene 
> description language for photorealistic image and animation construction / 
> scripting... that could sound impressive. ;-)

Actually, I only found out about POV when I was applying for a job that 
mentioned it.  I forget the name of the company, but they did realtime and 
pre-rendered work for car companies etc.  Of course I looked up everything 
that was mentioned on the job advert, and well here I am :-)

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:

> Actually here in Germany it's quite different to the UK, no job advert 
> ever says what salary they are going to pay, not even a range.  You have 
> to tell them what you are expecting.

OK, that sounds pretty scary.

If you say a number that's too high, they'll do "damn, we're not paying 
that!" and not hire you. And if you say a number that's too low, they'll 
be all like "haha, this guy doesn't have a clue!"

> Also watch out because when they are interviewing you they will likely 
> ask what your current salary is.  Make sure you have a figure in your 
> head for when they ask you this question.  DO NOT tell them your real 
> salary because it is way lower than someone like you deserves.  By 
> answering this question with 25K instead of 15K you will have just earnt 
> yourself an extra 10K per year for the rest of your life.  No matter how 
> much you hate lying, you'd be really really stupid to tell them the 
> truth, because they are only going to pay you the minimum they think 
> they need to.

Uh-huh. And they're not going to check this and find out I'm blatently 
lying?

Besides, do I really want to work for somebody where I have to lie to 
get what I desurve?

OOC... I run a small computer network, and I write technical documents. 
What do you estimate I *should* be being paid for that?

Post a reply to this message

>>> What, severely exaggerating the truth throughout?
>>
>> Yes. Bluntly, yes.
>
> Isn't that illegal?

No.

> Er, no... They hire you, find out you're lying, and press criminal charges 
> for fraud. o_O

There is no way that will happen unless you actually said something 
seriously false, like you had a degree from somewhere you don't.  And even 
then they're likely not going to bother with any charges because they won't 
be bothered, they'll just sack you.  There is no way on this Earth they are 
going to start arguing with you about whether "built a comprehensive 
database backup script" is lying or not because it's only 20 lines long.

Post a reply to this message

> If you say a number that's too high, they'll do "damn, we're not paying 
> that!" and not hire you. And if you say a number that's too low, they'll 
> be all like "haha, this guy doesn't have a clue!"

Depends how important finances are to the company compared with getting the 
right person.  There is a wide range where they will take note of you.  For 
a job we recently advertised we were expecting to have to pay around 70K 
euro, but the people we did interview were asking for around 50-60K euro, 
which was a bonus!

> Uh-huh. And they're not going to check this and find out I'm blatently 
> lying?

No, how on Earth do you imagine that they could find out your salary?

> Besides, do I really want to work for somebody where I have to lie to get 
> what I desurve?

If they sense that they could offer you 20K and you'd accept, they will. If 
you say your current salary is 25K then there is no way they would offer you 
20K.  It's up to you.

> OOC... I run a small computer network, and I write technical documents. 
> What do you estimate I *should* be being paid for that?

With a computer science degree and 6 years experience, I'd say around 25K 
was about right, maybe even more if you've really gotten into improving the 
network infrastructure etc rather than just being a support person following 
orders.

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>> If you say a number that's too high, they'll do "damn, we're not 
>> paying that!" and not hire you. And if you say a number that's too 
>> low, they'll be all like "haha, this guy doesn't have a clue!"
> 
> Depends how important finances are to the company compared with getting 
> the right person.  There is a wide range where they will take note of 
> you.

Heh, well, almost everybody *claims* they want the most brilliant 
people. I think some of them are more serious about it than others 
though. ;-)

>> Uh-huh. And they're not going to check this and find out I'm blatently 
>> lying?
> 
> No, how on Earth do you imagine that they could find out your salary?

They call my employer and ask them? It's not rocket science.

>> Besides, do I really want to work for somebody where I have to lie to 
>> get what I desurve?
> 
> If they sense that they could offer you 20K and you'd accept, they will. 
> If you say your current salary is 25K then there is no way they would 
> offer you 20K.  It's up to you.

Heh. But if I was getting paid 25K to sit here posting monad tutorials 
on povray.off-topic, why would I be looking for another job? ;-)

Since the pay is one of my major motivations for wanting to leave, I 
think I'm going to have trouble explaining that one. (Altough I guess 
the incompetent management and the empty order book and the stream of 
people leaving the company would be another reason...)

>> OOC... I run a small computer network, and I write technical 
>> documents. What do you estimate I *should* be being paid for that?
> 
> With a computer science degree and 6 years experience, I'd say around 
> 25K was about right, maybe even more if you've really gotten into 
> improving the network infrastructure etc rather than just being a 
> support person following orders.

If I had the cheque book, and people would *listen* to what I'm saying, 
I could do that... But hey, that's why I'm moving!

Benny seems to think I should be earning 30K - 40K. (Working for 
somebody else, that is.) Personally I think that's a little ambitious 
for somebody of my limited skill. As I understand it, technical people 
don't merit such high salaries, only salesmen and managers.

Post a reply to this message

>> Because nobody better applied.
>
> That's a *highly* improbably hypothesis.

You need to learn to come across more positive, almost every comment you've 
made in this thread has been negative.  People give helpful suggestions and 
almost every time you just throw it back to them with some trivial made-up 
excuse why it won't work.  No wonder you can't find another job if that 
attitude comes across in your CV/letter/interview.

You seem to be under this delusion that for every job advertised there will 
be hundreds of people applying with the perfect match of experience and 
qualifications.  Get real, that hardly ever happens even in large companies.

Post a reply to this message

> Heh, well, almost everybody *claims* they want the most brilliant people. 
> I think some of them are more serious about it than others though. ;-)

Of course, some will have a budget much bigger than others, you never know.

>> No, how on Earth do you imagine that they could find out your salary?
>
> They call my employer and ask them? It's not rocket science.

There is no way your employer would give out such information to anyone 
outside the company.  Even to internal employees they would never give out 
such information, unless authorised to do so by someone quite senior.

> Since the pay is one of my major motivations for wanting to leave, I think 
> I'm going to have trouble explaining that one.

DO NOT tell them your motivation for moving is the pay.  There is no way 
they will employ someone who is just moving to get a higher salary, because 
in 2 years time they will be off to another company for more money.  You 
explain that your motivation for moving is because you have no opportunities 
for progressing your career in the company and the work is very repetitive 
blah blah blah.

> Benny seems to think I should be earning 30K - 40K. (Working for somebody 
> else, that is.) Personally I think that's a little ambitious for somebody 
> of my limited skill.

Not at all, if you had spent 2 years working at your company, then maybe 
moved up and taken some more responsibility for the networking etc (or moved 
to a different company with a more responsible job) you could easily be 
earning that much or more.  The problem you have is that you've spent 6 
years doing essentially the same job with no propspect of career 
progression, so you can't really expect your salary to rise to that much for 
just doing the same thing.

> As I understand it, technical people don't merit such high salaries, only 
> salesmen and managers.

Rubbish, that job I told you about that we thought we needed to pay 70K 
euro, that was for an Engineer with 7 years experience.  I have no idea how 
much we actually offered him, but I know he was earning 56K euro in his 
current job, which we all thought was a bit low given what he was doing.

Google "average graduate salary" and hit the first link, it's 24K euro. 
Even with only 3% pay rises and no promotion you should be on almost 30K 
after six years.

I think you just started out on an exceptionally under paid job, and because 
you've stuck at it for so long you're kind of out of touch with what other 
technical people with 6 years experience are being paid.

BTW just being a manager doesn't mean you're not technical, my manager does 
essentially the same job as me, he just has a lot more experience and does 
more stuff like budget and reporting with senior people.

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:

> You need to learn to come across more positive, almost every comment 
> you've made in this thread has been negative.  People give helpful 
> suggestions and almost every time you just throw it back to them with 
> some trivial made-up excuse why it won't work.

Actually I agreed with quite a few of the comments (e.g., your 
suggestion that I remove the ancient history from my CV).

> No wonder you can't find 
> another job if that attitude comes across in your CV/letter/interview.
> 
> You seem to be under this delusion that for every job advertised there 
> will be hundreds of people applying with the perfect match of experience 
> and qualifications.  Get real, that hardly ever happens even in large 
> companies.

Given the spectacular lack of success I've experienced during the course 
of my entire career - nay, my entire *life* - I guess that's not so 
surprising, eh?

I take your point. It's just rather hard to believe something when all 
the available evidence consistently points to the contrary. Even if, 
rationally, you know the available evidence is somewhat skewed.

Still, you'd think that a huge, well-known company like Google or Nokia 
would constantly have far more applicants than they know what to do 
with. It is most unlikely that *I* would be the best of the entire pack.

Post a reply to this message

>>> No, how on Earth do you imagine that they could find out your salary?
>>
>> They call my employer and ask them? It's not rocket science.
> 
> There is no way your employer would give out such information to anyone 
> outside the company.  Even to internal employees they would never give 
> out such information, unless authorised to do so by someone quite senior.

Well, it depends on how badly they don't want me to leave, doesn't it?

Thinking about it... my MD is probably far too stupid to realise how 
important I am, so he probably won't care. So maybe you're right.

> DO NOT tell them your motivation for moving is the pay.

Right. So you suggest I go with the "not enough technical challenge" 
route then?

>> Benny seems to think I should be earning 30K - 40K. (Working for 
>> somebody else, that is.) Personally I think that's a little ambitious 
>> for somebody of my limited skill.
> 
> Not at all, if you had spent 2 years working at your company, then maybe 
> moved up and taken some more responsibility for the networking etc (or 
> moved to a different company with a more responsible job) you could 
> easily be earning that much or more.

Heh, damn. My *mum* doesn't even earn that much, and she's seriously 
good at her job.

> The problem you have is that 
> you've spent 6 years doing essentially the same job

Agreed.

> Google "average graduate salary" and hit the first link, it's 24K euro. 

...so that's about £20?

(I don't know if Google is giving you different result from where you 
are, but mine says £23k-£24k.)

> Even with only 3% pay rises and no promotion you should be on almost 30K 
> after six years.

I don't think we've ever had a pay rise that big here. Roughly once 
every 3 years they add maybe 1.5%. (And oddly, when we get a raise 
everybody complains...?)

> I think you just started out on an exceptionally under paid job, and 
> because you've stuck at it for so long you're kind of out of touch with 
> what other technical people with 6 years experience are being paid.

Well, they did hire me explicitly because they were forced to hire 
somebody and "I'm cheap". As you say, I'm still here, so why should they 
pay me any more?

Given that I don't know anybody else, never mind anybody who works in 
computing, I have nothing to compare to...

> BTW just being a manager doesn't mean you're not technical, my manager 
> does essentially the same job as me, he just has a lot more experience 
> and does more stuff like budget and reporting with senior people.

The "traditional" approach seems to be that when you need find the 
person who's best at their job, and then make them a manager and give 
them a sack more money. Which I always thought was a bit strange, given 
that (say) knowing how to diagnose line faults really well isn't 
particularly correlated with knowing how to manage people...

Post a reply to this message

> It is most unlikely that *I* would be the best of the entire pack.

Why not? How many people do you think know Haskell?  If you turned up for 
interview with 4 other people, do you really think they would all also know 
Haskell?  How many of them do you think would have written a working 
function parser (is that what it is called?) like the one you did?  That's 
not trivial stuff.

Wasn't there some job someone posted here a while ago that specifically 
mentioned Haskell?  I'm sure that in the large companies like Nokia, MS, 
Google etc they have plenty of areas where you would fit in perfectly.

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>> It is most unlikely that *I* would be the best of the entire pack.
> 
> Why not? How many people do you think know Haskell?  If you turned up 
> for interview with 4 other people, do you really think they would all 
> also know Haskell?  How many of them do you think would have written a 
> working function parser (is that what it is called?) like the one you 
> did?  That's not trivial stuff.

Sure. But if I turn out for an interview with 4,000 other people, what 
are the chances that I'm the *only* person who knows Haskell?

> Wasn't there some job someone posted here a while ago that specifically 
> mentioned Haskell?

Yeah. I applied. And I never heard a word in reply...

(But then, it was posted on the Haskell mailing list. There I'm just a 
mino; there are people on that list who comprehend System F and so forth.)

> I'm sure that in the large companies like Nokia, MS, 
> Google etc they have plenty of areas where you would fit in perfectly.

I did actually take a look at Microsoft Research Cambridge the other 
day... but I couldn't figure out what the hell they were talking about. Heh.

Post a reply to this message

> (I don't know if Google is giving you different result from where you are, 
> but mine says £23k-£24k.)

Oops sorry getting confused with euros and pounds there, mine says 24K 
POUNDS too lol.

> I don't think we've ever had a pay rise that big here. Roughly once every 
> 3 years they add maybe 1.5%. (And oddly, when we get a raise everybody 
> complains...?)

That's terrible, haven't you noticed that the price of everything around you 
is going up by far more than 1.5% every 3 years? So you're actually earning 
LESS now than 6 years ago!

> Well, they did hire me explicitly because they were forced to hire 
> somebody and "I'm cheap". As you say, I'm still here, so why should they 
> pay me any more?

Exactly.  You never know, once you tell them you are leaving for another 
job, they might offer you a pay rise to keep you.  But by the sounds of it 
they would probably just try to get by without replacing you ;-)

> The "traditional" approach seems to be that when you need find the person 
> who's best at their job, and then make them a manager and give them a sack 
> more money.

Usually you choose the person who you think is going to be best at being 
manager, not necessarily (and often not) the best outright technical guy.

> Which I always thought was a bit strange, given that (say) knowing how to 
> diagnose line faults really well isn't particularly correlated with 
> knowing how to manage people...

But being really bad about diagnosing line faults is a far worse situation. 
I guess there are "technical managers" and purely "admin managers". 
Technical managers need to know their stuff well, otherwise what do they say 
when one of their employees has a question?

Post a reply to this message

> Sure. But if I turn out for an interview with 4,000 other people, what are 
> the chances that I'm the *only* person who knows Haskell?

If a company is interviewing 4000 people they usually have considerably more 
than 1 place up for grabs.

> (But then, it was posted on the Haskell mailing list. There I'm just a 
> mino; there are people on that list who comprehend System F and so forth.)

Yeh, applying for a Haskell job that is posted on the Haskell mailing list 
is perhaps not the most sure way to get a job!  Besides, you didn't have a 
cool updated CV back then like you have now thanks to all our input here :-)

Post a reply to this message

>> I don't think we've ever had a pay rise that big here. Roughly once 
>> every 3 years they add maybe 1.5%. (And oddly, when we get a raise 
>> everybody complains...?)
> 
> That's terrible, haven't you noticed that the price of everything around 
> you is going up by far more than 1.5% every 3 years? So you're actually 
> earning LESS now than 6 years ago!

...and I would notice prices, why? I never buy anything, remember? ;-)

(Well, except petrol. When I got my first car, it used to cost £30 to 
fill it up. Last time I did that, it cost me £60. OUCH!)

But yeah, every time a pay rise is announced, everybody complains about 
it being "a pay cut". Surely *not* getting a rise would be worse??

>> Well, they did hire me explicitly because they were forced to hire 
>> somebody and "I'm cheap". As you say, I'm still here, so why should 
>> they pay me any more?
> 
> Exactly.  You never know, once you tell them you are leaving for another 
> job, they might offer you a pay rise to keep you.  But by the sounds of 
> it they would probably just try to get by without replacing you ;-)

Heh. Part of me wants to see the look on their stupid faces when they 
find out how much a "normal" technical expert wants to be paid to do the 
job I do. ;-)

But hey, I'm sure they'll find a monkey who can do the job on my salary. 
I doubt they'll be as good as me, but will the company care?

(We're talking about the company that paid for a support contract from a 
firm who's employees clearly haven't got a clue how to fix an air 
conditioning system. When we called them out, they spent 2 hours 
standing outside playing football!)

>> The "traditional" approach seems to be that when you need find the 
>> person who's best at their job, and then make them a manager and give 
>> them a sack more money.
> 
> Usually you choose the person who you think is going to be best at being 
> manager, not necessarily (and often not) the best outright technical guy.

This would make far more sense. As I understand it, being a manager is 
primarily about people skills.

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>> Sure. But if I turn out for an interview with 4,000 other people, what 
>> are the chances that I'm the *only* person who knows Haskell?
> 
> If a company is interviewing 4000 people they usually have considerably 
> more than 1 place up for grabs.

True. But it wouldn't surprise me if somewhere popular had 4,000 
applications and only a handful of actual vacancies. How many people 
apply to Nokia just in case they're hiring?

> Yeh, applying for a Haskell job that is posted on the Haskell mailing 
> list is perhaps not the most sure way to get a job!  Besides, you didn't 
> have a cool updated CV back then like you have now thanks to all our 
> input here :-)

So true! ;-)

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:
> Sure. But if I turn out for an interview with 4,000 other people, what
> are the chances that I'm the *only* person who knows Haskell?

What are the chances they'd choose only ONE person out of 4000 in such an
interview?

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:
>> That Haskell parser thing I don't even remember the name of. I understood
>> it without even knowing Haskell. I insist: put that in the Haskell wiki!
> 
> Oh, you *liked* Parsec, eh?

Not quite, more like I liked your explanation of it.

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"Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message 
news:492299cf$1@news.povray.org...

> I'll tell you why I put up with it: I have no choice. Unfortunately nobody 
> else is willing to even interview much less employ me. And I *need* money. 
> So no matter how angry I am, no matter how miserably it makes me, I have 
> to stay here.
>
> And you know what? It really sucks. Big style.
>
> I hate my life.

   Oh, be quiet. You're lucky because you have *time* to CHANGE IT!

   You're not that far from Northamton are you? Go for this job, they want 
someone quickly:

    http://www.cwjobs.co.uk/JobSearch/JobDetails.aspx?JobId=42113428&Location=32

   Look at what they're willing to pay - if you're lucky in the interview, 
you might just get the job and that money, and if you think that the 
interviewer is trying to fob you off or it's not sounding promising, then 
you could always say that you would accept something like £28,000 as a last 
resort.

  If I was in your position right now, Northampton is where I'd be heading.

     ~Steve~

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>> Oh, you *liked* Parsec, eh?
> 
> Not quite, more like I liked your explanation of it.

Yay, me! :-D

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