For the last few days, backup jobs have been failing, and I don't know 
why. I just spent the morning poking around to try to find out why.

Hey, guess what? Several of the backup settings have magically changed 
themselves to something completely different values.

I wonder, who could have done that? Perhaps it was the fairies? Yes, 
that must be it. It was changed by faries.

I'm completely sure that none of this has anything at all to do with the 
new global backup procedure document that comes into effect on the 1st 
of December. (Notice today's date: 18 *November*. Hence, our current 
procedure document is still in force and must be followed to the letter.)

Obviously I have no proof of who changed those settings. But I have a 
pretty good idea.

I'm really angry right now. I've spent all this time doing workarounds 
to try to get the backups to work and writing all these extra log 
entries to record my actions, and the cause of the problem all along was 
some twat in America who ****ed around with MY backup settings without 
bothering to tell me! >:-[

I utterly fail to see how I can be held legally responsible for this 
stuff when I apparently have no control over it. How can I face a jail 
sentence for somebody else's actions? In what universe is that fair??

More to the point, why do I put up with a misely £14,000/year for this 
amount of crap? I'm expected to single-handedly run an entire department 
with no backup staff and having to beg for days off and losing valid 
holiday entitlement almost every year because I didn't get to actually 
use it, and be held legally responsible for all this lot, for slightly 
more than the legal minimum wage?

I'll tell you why I put up with it: I have no choice. Unfortunately 
nobody else is willing to even interview much less employ me. And I 
*need* money. So no matter how angry I am, no matter how miserably it 
makes me, I have to stay here.

And you know what? It really sucks. Big style.

I hate my life.

Post a reply to this message

> I'll tell you why I put up with it: I have no choice. Unfortunately nobody 
> else is willing to even interview much less employ me.

You're either applying for the wrong jobs or doing something wrong with your 
CV or covering letter then.  I think I mentioned in another thread, take 
your GCSE results off your CV for starters.

Why don't you post your CV and covering letter here and I'm sure a few 
people will volunteer some helpful feedback.  After that you can take into 
account whatever advice you choose to and work with that.  I understand if 
you don't want to though, I wouldn't want to :-)

It's just plain incorrect that you won't be able to find another job 
elsewhere, think of all the other people who are *way* less skilled than 
you, they manage to find jobs ok.

BTW I just did a very quick search on Monster.co.uk by typing in "backup IT" 
and it gave this job:

http://jobview.monster.co.uk/GetJob.aspx?JobID=77477279

I would say if you don't get an interview for that job you are doing 
something seriously wrong on your CV or covering letter.  And because you 
have several years experience, I think you could easily ask for and expect 
to get the 25K salary.

What's stopping you?

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>> I'll tell you why I put up with it: I have no choice. Unfortunately 
>> nobody else is willing to even interview much less employ me.
> 
> You're either applying for the wrong jobs or doing something wrong with 
> your CV or covering letter then.

Well, I don't know. Just last weekend I applied to about half a dozen 
jobs on a graduate recruitement website. Thus far, I have heard... nothing.

I keep applying to all these jobs, and I never hear anything. It sucks. 
It's the most demotivational thing *ever*. (As if wading through 
hundreds of pages of unsuitable jobs wasn't bad enough already...)

> Why don't you post your CV and covering letter here and I'm sure a few 
> people will volunteer some helpful feedback.  After that you can take 
> into account whatever advice you choose to and work with that.  I 
> understand if you don't want to though, I wouldn't want to :-)

You know, it's amazing. Do you have any idea how many people I've paid 
to look at my CV? I hate to think about the amount of money I've spent. 
And yet each consultant always manages to find something that needs 
improving. (And usually I agree with their comments, actually.)

> It's just plain incorrect that you won't be able to find another job 
> elsewhere, think of all the other people who are *way* less skilled than 
> you, they manage to find jobs ok.

Then maybe it's just the fact that I want to find a job that's *better* 
than the one I have? I'm sure if I applied to clean fridges at M&S 
again, I'd be hired within minutes. (The last time I applied, they 
didn't even interview me. They just told me to turn up that evening to 
start work. And I did.)

> BTW I just did a very quick search on Monster.co.uk by typing in "backup 
> IT" and it gave this job:
> 
> http://jobview.monster.co.uk/GetJob.aspx?JobID=77477279
> 
> I would say if you don't get an interview for that job you are doing 
> something seriously wrong on your CV or covering letter.  And because 
> you have several years experience, I think you could easily ask for and 
> expect to get the 25K salary.
> 
> What's stopping you?

...it's in London?

Besides, I'd like to get *out* of computer support.

Ideally I'd like to become a computer programmer. But maybe I'm just 
being completely unrealistic here. After all, I've only been writing 
computer programs for 19 years straight in two dozen different 
programming languages. It's not as if I have commercial experience or 
anything. (Or knowledge of the popular languages.)

PS. My CV is currently on Monster. Once every few months, some recruiter 
emails me about it. I telephone them, they sound really excited, I never 
hear anything ever again. (I call them a few more times, but they're 
either "not in the office right now" or they say they'll "get back to me".)

Post a reply to this message

>> What's stopping you?
>
> ...it's in London?

Oh come on it's barely inside the M25, there are plenty of towns you could 
live in to the west that nobody would ever consider as "London".

> Besides, I'd like to get *out* of computer support.

And how is staying in your current job going to help with that?  You never 
know, at your new job there might be many more opportunities to move into 
programming, especially if it's a larger company with more IT staff.

Seems to me like you're just making up excuses not to move anywhere, none of 
which are really valid.

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>>> What's stopping you?
>>
>> ...it's in London?
> 
> Oh come on it's barely inside the M25, there are plenty of towns you 
> could live in to the west that nobody would ever consider as "London".

According to Google, it's 1 hour 15 minutes from where I currently live. 
(Ah, but does Google know about rush hour, and the M1 roadworks?)

>> Besides, I'd like to get *out* of computer support.
> 
> And how is staying in your current job going to help with that?  You 
> never know, at your new job there might be many more opportunities to 
> move into programming, especially if it's a larger company with more IT 
> staff.

Well, I suppose so. It just seems a bit silly applying for a job I don't 
really want to do, that's all.

> Seems to me like you're just making up excuses not to move anywhere, 
> none of which are really valid.

It's the wrong sort of job, in the wrong part of the country. Those seem 
like pretty valid problems to me! :-P

Post a reply to this message

> According to Google, it's 1 hour 15 minutes from where I currently live. 
> (Ah, but does Google know about rush hour, and the M1 roadworks?)

Why on Earth would you be driving from where you currently live?

> Well, I suppose so. It just seems a bit silly applying for a job I don't 
> really want to do, that's all.

It seems even sillier to stay in a job you apparently really hate.

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>> According to Google, it's 1 hour 15 minutes from where I currently 
>> live. (Ah, but does Google know about rush hour, and the M1 roadworks?)
> 
> Why on Earth would you be driving from where you currently live?

...because I can't afford to move?

>> Well, I suppose so. It just seems a bit silly applying for a job I 
>> don't really want to do, that's all.
> 
> It seems even sillier to stay in a job you apparently really hate.

Well, what it comes down to is this: If I'm going to apply for 
something, it needs to be bettER than what I currently have. It needs to 
be nearer or better paid or less stressful or *something*.

I think the specific job you mentioned fails on this test. (I'd be 
driving *towards* the traffic jams, rather than away from them like I 
currently do. And the "significant travelling will be involved" leads me 
to think this is probably a customer-facing role, which absolutely rules 
it out of consideration.) But maybe I can find *something* better 
somewhere...

Post a reply to this message

> ...because I can't afford to move?

What, you think all the people earning under 25K live on the streets or with 
their parents?  Really, limiting yourself to within daily driving distance 
from your mum's house is a bit childish, and going to severely limit your 
opportunities.

> Well, what it comes down to is this: If I'm going to apply for something, 
> it needs to be bettER than what I currently have. It needs to be nearer or 
> better paid or less stressful or *something*.

Almost double the salary, probably far less stressful, a better organised IT 
structure, way more opportunities to do other stuff and be recognised for 
it, and it will look good on your CV for when you come to apply for a job 
you *really* want to do.

> I think the specific job you mentioned fails on this test. (I'd be driving 
> *towards* the traffic jams, rather than away from them like I currently 
> do. And the "significant travelling will be involved" leads me to think 
> this is probably a customer-facing role, which absolutely rules it out of 
> consideration.)

It probably just means they have a few different sites which you will need 
to visit quite often, who knows, maybe one of them is near where you live 
now?  And even if one of the other sites belongs to a different company (a 
"customer" facing role) it's really no difference for you because they'll 
all be new people anyway.

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>> ...because I can't afford to move?
> 
> What, you think all the people earning under 25K live on the streets or 
> with their parents?

I gather some of them have friends and are able to pool their resources 
to rent somewhere.

I guess I could sell everything I own and use it to pay for a 1-room 
prison cell like the one Marcus has. I don't really see how this would 
be an "improvement" to my life though.

> Really, limiting yourself to within daily driving 
> distance from your mum's house is a bit childish, and going to severely 
> limit your opportunities.

Who wouldn't want to work somewhere near to where they actualy live?

It's not like it has to be right next to my front door, but I would like 
it to be within a *sane* distance, yes. (E.g., Northampton, Buckingham 
or even Cambridge wouldn't be too bad.)

>> Well, what it comes down to is this: If I'm going to apply for 
>> something, it needs to be bettER than what I currently have. It needs 
>> to be nearer or better paid or less stressful or *something*.
> 
> Almost double the salary, probably far less stressful, a better 
> organised IT structure, way more opportunities to do other stuff and be 
> recognised for it, and it will look good on your CV for when you come to 
> apply for a job you *really* want to do.

It says "up to" 25K. (In other words, that's not what they'll be paying 
*me*.) There's absolutely no guarantee it'll be any less stressful. It 
could in fact be far *more* stressful.

I agree with the part about my CV though.

>> And the "significant travelling will be involved" leads 
>> me to think this is probably a customer-facing role, which absolutely 
>> rules it out of consideration.)
> 
> It probably just means they have a few different sites which you will 
> need to visit quite often, who knows, maybe one of them is near where 
> you live now?

Maybe. But even so, would *you* want to spend a "significant amount" of 
time driving from A to B? Besides, it does say "analyst" in the title 
(altough that isn't any guarantee either).

> And even if one of the other sites belongs to a different 
> company (a "customer" facing role) it's really no difference for you 
> because they'll all be new people anyway.

Your employer [usually] wants you to stick around. *Customers* don't 
care if you get infected, crawl under a rock and die a slow, painful 
death - just so long as they get their system working again. And they 
aren't afraid to say so to your face.

I wish to avoid customers at all costs.

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:

> BTW I just did a very quick search on Monster.co.uk by typing in "backup 
> IT" and it gave this job:
> 
> http://jobview.monster.co.uk/GetJob.aspx?JobID=77477279

I'm doing some searching myself. It seems that "Imagination 
Technologies" have a whole bundle of adverts for people designing custom 
digital hardware and/or writing device drivers and firmware for such 
hardware. For example,

http://jobview.monster.co.uk/GetJob.aspx?JobID=73965942

This looks like the kind of thing I could really enjoy doing. Trouble 
is, I'm not seeing any specific job that I can tick ALL the boxes for. 
I'm actually thinking maybe I should just send a letter to their 
recruitment department telling them what I *can* offer and see what they 
say to that...

> What's stopping you?

In this instance, they seem to be *demanding* actual experience. 
(Specifically C, C++ and VHDL. None of which I have, but I'm pretty sure 
I could learn the latter two.)

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:

> I'm doing some searching myself. It seems that "Imagination 
> Technologies" have a whole bundle of adverts for people designing custom 
> digital hardware and/or writing device drivers and firmware for such 
> hardware.

http://www.imgtec.com/graduates/index.asp

Mmmm.... *drool*

Post a reply to this message

> This looks like the kind of thing I could really enjoy doing. Trouble is, 
> I'm not seeing any specific job that I can tick ALL the boxes for.

Hardly anyone can do that.

> In this instance, they seem to be *demanding* actual experience. 
> (Specifically C, C++ and VHDL. None of which I have, but I'm pretty sure I 
> could learn the latter two.)

Exactly.  Make this clear on your CV and letter.  You want them to employ 
you because you are quick at learning new concepts and being able to work 
with them, not because you have 12 years experience in C.

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>> This looks like the kind of thing I could really enjoy doing. Trouble 
>> is, I'm not seeing any specific job that I can tick ALL the boxes for.
> 
> Hardly anyone can do that.

Really?

I thought there were people out there who *have* 3 years of C experience?

>> In this instance, they seem to be *demanding* actual experience. 
>> (Specifically C, C++ and VHDL. None of which I have, but I'm pretty 
>> sure I could learn the latter two.)
> 
> Exactly.  Make this clear on your CV and letter.  You want them to 
> employ you because you are quick at learning new concepts and being able 
> to work with them, not because you have 12 years experience in C.

I totally feel like there must be *something* useful I could do for 
these guys... Now I just need to convince *them* of this fact! ;-)

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:

> http://jobview.monster.co.uk/GetJob.aspx?JobID=73965942

Kings Langley /= Kings Lynn. o_O

PWN3D.

Post a reply to this message

> I gather some of them have friends and are able to pool their resources to 
> rent somewhere.

If you earn 25K you'll have, what 1500 GBP a month to spend?  I'm pretty 
sure that even for a third of that you could rent somewhere half decent by 
yourself.  If you like it there (the job and the location) you could buy 
somewhere small after a year or two.  That way you're not wasting money on 
rent each month.

> It's not like it has to be right next to my front door, but I would like 
> it to be within a *sane* distance, yes. (E.g., Northampton, Buckingham or 
> even Cambridge wouldn't be too bad.)

You won't believe how much nicer it is to only have to commute 5-10 mins to 
work each day.  I didn't think it was too much of a problem doing 45 mins 
each way, but once I moved I swore I would never go back to anything more 
than 20 mins each way.

> It says "up to" 25K.

That's because it's aimed at graduates, someone with your experience and 
degree would easily expect the 25K or more (hey, I would expect even a good 
graduate with NO experience could ask for the 25K, especially as it's near 
London).

> Your employer [usually] wants you to stick around. *Customers* don't care 
> if you get infected, crawl under a rock and die a slow, painful death - 
> just so long as they get their system working again. And they aren't 
> afraid to say so to your face.

Funny, the customers I deal with are not like that at all.  They appreciate 
the work I do and with most of them the relationship is pretty similar to 
that I have with my colleagues.  Maybe it's because we're always working on 
the same level with technical issues, it's not like I have a meeting with 
the CEO of BMW where he's shouting at me to do something which is 
impossible.  In fact with most of our customers we usually go out for dinner 
with them after meetings and generally have a good time.

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>> I gather some of them have friends and are able to pool their 
>> resources to rent somewhere.
> 
> If you earn 25K you'll have, what 1500 GBP a month to spend?  I'm pretty 
> sure that even for a third of that you could rent somewhere half decent 
> by yourself.  If you like it there (the job and the location) you could 
> buy somewhere small after a year or two.  That way you're not wasting 
> money on rent each month.

All I know is that my sister lives in Guildford, she earns *twice* what 
me and my mum combined earn, her boyfriend earns a similar salary again, 
and they're *still* always broke.

Apparently, the nearer you get to London, the more expensive everything 
becomes.

> You won't believe how much nicer it is to only have to commute 5-10 mins 
> to work each day.  I didn't think it was too much of a problem doing 45 
> mins each way, but once I moved I swore I would never go back to 
> anything more than 20 mins each way.

Oh well, I would *much* prefer to not have to crawl out of bed and spent 
an hour of my life driving. But since there doesn't seem to be much in 
the way of computer jobs in MK, gotta be realistic. (Apparently. So the 
last consultant I spoke to said.)

>> It says "up to" 25K.
> 
> That's because it's aimed at graduates, someone with your experience and 
> degree would easily expect the 25K or more.

Does changing some tapes once a day count as "experience"? I guess it 
might...

>> Your employer [usually] wants you to stick around. *Customers* don't 
>> care if you get infected, crawl under a rock and die a slow, painful 
>> death - just so long as they get their system working again. And they 
>> aren't afraid to say so to your face.
> 
> Funny, the customers I deal with are not like that at all.  They 
> appreciate the work I do and with most of them the relationship is 
> pretty similar to that I have with my colleagues.  Maybe it's because 
> we're always working on the same level with technical issues, it's not 
> like I have a meeting with the CEO of BMW where he's shouting at me to 
> do something which is impossible.  In fact with most of our customers we 
> usually go out for dinner with them after meetings and generally have a 
> good time.

Damn, you have some much nicer customers than us!

(Ours are famous for not having the slightest clue what they want from 
us, but getting extremely angry when we don't give it to them. And they 
send in auditors once every few years to prove we're doing our jobs 
wrong...)

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:

> Hey, guess what? Several of the backup settings have magically changed 
> themselves to something completely different values.
> 
> I wonder, who could have done that? Perhaps it was the fairies? Yes, 
> that must be it. It was changed by faries.
> 
> I'm completely sure that none of this has anything at all to do with the 
> new global backup procedure document that comes into effect on the 1st 
> of December. (Notice today's date: 18 *November*. Hence, our current 
> procedure document is still in force and must be followed to the letter.)

The head of IT wants me to file a deviation record for this. Rather 
than, you know, put the settings back to what they should be until the 
SOP actually comes into force.

Because let's face it, signing a bit of paper saying "hey, we're sorry" 
makes it all OK, doesn't it?

> Obviously I have no proof of who changed those settings. But I have a 
> pretty good idea.

"Oh yeah, I should have probably had Chris touch base with you on that."

What the **** do you mean "probably"?!



Still, I'm just a mino in a very large pond. I suppose I should just be 
thankful I haven't been eaten yet...

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:

> The head of IT wants me to file a deviation record for this. Rather 
> than, you know, put the settings back to what they should be until the 
> SOP actually comes into force.
> 
> Because let's face it, signing a bit of paper saying "hey, we're sorry" 
> makes it all OK, doesn't it?


> "Oh yeah, I should have probably had Chris touch base with you on that."
> 
> What the **** do you mean "probably"?!

The head of QA thinks I should write an email about this and send it to 
the head of IT and the UK MD.

Oh goodie. So as well as trying to figure out what needs to go in this 
deviation record, I also need to write a lengthy email to Mr 
Self-Important too. And hopefully without causing myself even more 
problems than I already have. Yay, me. :-/

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:

> You're either applying for the wrong jobs or doing something wrong with 
> your CV or covering letter then.  I think I mentioned in another thread, 
> take your GCSE results off your CV for starters.

I just checked my CV. Apparently I've already removed the GCSE results. 
(I think the consultant I saw in London suggested that one.)

> Why don't you post your CV and covering letter here and I'm sure a few 
> people will volunteer some helpful feedback.  After that you can take 
> into account whatever advice you choose to and work with that.  I 
> understand if you don't want to though, I wouldn't want to :-)

I've attached my CV. Please don't laugh. :-P

I don't *have* a covering letter. If I find a company interesting enough 
for me to contact them directly, I write something from scratch. 
(Depending on how I heard of them, what line of work they're in, how 
closely my skills match what they seem to be looking for, etc.)

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

Attachments:
Download 'cv-v5-programmer-minimal.pdf' (39 KB)

Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> scott wrote:
> 
>> You're either applying for the wrong jobs or doing something wrong 
>> with your CV or covering letter then.  I think I mentioned in another 
>> thread, take your GCSE results off your CV for starters.
> 
> I just checked my CV. Apparently I've already removed the GCSE results. 
> (I think the consultant I saw in London suggested that one.)
> 
>> Why don't you post your CV and covering letter here and I'm sure a few 
>> people will volunteer some helpful feedback.  After that you can take 
>> into account whatever advice you choose to and work with that.  I 
>> understand if you don't want to though, I wouldn't want to :-)
> 
> I've attached my CV. Please don't laugh. :-P
> 
> I don't *have* a covering letter. If I find a company interesting enough 
> for me to contact them directly, I write something from scratch. 
> (Depending on how I heard of them, what line of work they're in, how 
> closely my skills match what they seem to be looking for, etc.)
> 

Please accept this as honest and well intentioned advice and feedback. 
I'll be direct because you have asked for help.

Your actual work history over 6 years amounts to 5 bullet points and 
less than half a page !

Come on.  This is the important bit.  Without waffling or including 
every time you turned on your PC you need to add more substance here.

You undercut points by saying how small and trivial they are - 'number 
of small scripts', 'a small client survey'.  Why not say how much time 
or money they saved ?

Don't just say what you did but link it to the value.  What would have 
happened if you did not do certain tasks, come up with and implement 
those ideas for improvements, have such great skills etc?

If you write policies and procedures that have to be reviewed by 
external parties then don't phrase it as if they had to be passed by 
some other agency and just squeaked through.  What you did was 
'Developed written policies on X, Y, Z that were implemented department 
wide and endorsed by the the relevant government agency and external 
auditors.  This achieved compliance with legislative requirements 
resulting in new contracts to the value of ...'.

Above all, remember that even the best CV may not get you to an 
interview.  Recruiters are (often) clueless, cruel and stupid.  A lot of 
this is arbitrary and random.

You certainly need to improve your chances at step 1 with a better CV. 
You also may need to submit it to more potential opportunities.  It is 
somewhat of a numbers game.  And that means that failure to strike any 
one mark isn't a personal failing or put down.

What if you applied for that job in far away London and actually got to 
the interview stage?  You get experience and who knows it just might be 
such a good company or more money than you expected that makes it 
attractive.  Wouldn't be unknown for them to offer a different role than 
the advertised one if you are a decent candidate.

So what if you have to travel a bit to get there?  Read on the train. 
Catch the eye of the cutey sitting opposite.  Become a cycling nut.

Sure you don't want to waste your life in travel but sometimes you have 
to trade a bit of pain for other substantial gains.  Later on you move 
closer or find another job nearer but as good or better.  It is easier 
to get into another higher paid job once you are already in a tier. 
Particularly if you demonstrate some achievement and advancement.

If you discount 95% of chances without applying then you've really 
limited the probability of success.  Who knows - it might be that your 
superficial evaluation is wrong.  Gee - that sounds like dating advice.

Finally, if your current situation is so bad then change it and soon. 
If the sparse job history is right then you don't have the opportunity 
to achieve much in your current job.  Plugging away for another couple 
of years may not be adding anything and in fact it will soon be a 
negative to have stayed so long in an obviously dead end job and 
company.  Not to mention the obvious negative motivation and morale. 
Meanwhile time and opportunities are sliding away.

Post a reply to this message

> I've attached my CV. Please don't laugh. :-P

I agree with what Paul wrote, especially the employment history.  Beef it 
out a bit and take out the negative words like "small".  Use a smaller font 
size if you can't fit it all on 2 sides, the one you are using is quite 
large.  Beef it out more depending on the job you are applying for, eg if 
you are applying for a programming job then explain more about the scripts 
and tools you've written.

Under your skills profile, I would actually write the complete list of 
languages you have a "long history" with, drop the "etc" at the end.  IF you 
want, give another list afterwards of langauges that you have dabbled with 
to a lesser extent.  Beef out the last bullet point and make it clear that 
you can learn new languages quickly, if they are expecting you to use a 
language you are not proficient with this will help.

Bear in mind that when someone is looking at your CV they want to see 
*evidence* of what you say you are a good at.  For everything you say you do 
or like, try to think of something that proves you are.  eg "developed a 
number of scripts", add afterwards something like "these have been working 
successfully to save blah blah blah and have improved reliability and uptime 
blah blah".  I think Paul said something similar.

Beef out the bit about working liaising with staff, especially the US dudes, 
nowadays most companies have to deal with foreign people at some time or 
another and it shows you can communicate effectively.  Also expand the "plan 
future upgrades" bit, make it sound like you are part of the team that is 
designing the network rather than just looking after it.

Take out the things like filing and photocopying, any monkey can (and does) 
do that and they are interviewing you for a programmer, not an office 
assistant.  If you want, put something in there like "proificient MS Office 
user", you'd be surprised how many (particularly older people) cannot use 
most of the features of Office.

Take out your college diploma and GCSE results (I think you said you'd 
already done that), and beef out your degree details if you have space. It 
looks a bit confusing at the moment, I would group it into 1st 2nd and 3rd 
year and then put the details under each.  If I were you I would also take 
out the grade for your final year project, and replace it with some more 
details about the project.  Some poeple who are looking at the CV might not 
know what MVC stands for?

If you still have space to fill, add in a small "personal hobbies" section, 
I know some employers want to see some evidence that you have a life outside 
of work subjects, so it can't hurt.  Just think up of a few non-computing 
activities you've done once or twice in your life :-) they're not going to 
ask for proof.

Remember a CV is there to sell yourself, someone is going to read 20 CVs and 
choose a few to interview, you want to do everything possible (without lying 
obviously) to make sure they choose yours.

Post a reply to this message

Paul Fuller wrote:

> Your actual work history over 6 years amounts to 5 bullet points and 
> less than half a page !
> 
> Come on.  This is the important bit.  Without waffling or including 
> every time you turned on your PC you need to add more substance here.

Guess why I'm looking for another job? ;-)

> You undercut points by saying how small and trivial they are - 'number 
> of small scripts', 'a small client survey'.  Why not say how much time 
> or money they saved ?

Neither of these things have saved anybody money. The scripts save my 
time. (Which means I can spent more time surfing the web - but I don't 
have to mention that part.)

> Don't just say what you did but link it to the value.  What would have 
> happened if you did not do certain tasks, come up with and implement 
> those ideas for improvements, have such great skills etc?

Unfortunately, nothing. Almost nothing I do has any great impact on the 
company. I mean, if I didn't set up somebody's account or if I didn't 
change the backup tapes, the consequences wouldn't be much fun. But that 
doesn't have a lot to do with the jobs I'm attempting to apply for. (A 
trained monkey could change tapes and create user accounts. Which 
possibly explains my salary...)

> If you write policies and procedures that have to be reviewed by 
> external parties then don't phrase it as if they had to be passed by 
> some other agency and just squeaked through.

I thought that was pretty much covered by "several external auditors
have specifically mentioned the high quality of these documents".

> This achieved compliance with legislative requirements 
> resulting in new contracts to the value of ...'.

This would be lying.

Customers are far more interested in price and turnaround than the minor 
work I do. Customers will withdraw contracts if the documentation isn't 
good enough, but it won't motivate them to *place* work.

> Above all, remember that even the best CV may not get you to an 
> interview.  Recruiters are (often) clueless, cruel and stupid.  A lot of 
> this is arbitrary and random.

All I know is that after applying to endless adverts, I have had exactly 
*one* interview. In the nearly 2 years I've been looking. This is *not* 
strong motivation to keep trying. Indeed, this leads me more to believe 
that trying to find a better job is inherantly hopeless and I might as 
well give up.

I don't intend to give up any time soon, but I *am* really struggling 
for motivation given my abject lack of success.

> You certainly need to improve your chances at step 1 with a better CV. 
> You also may need to submit it to more potential opportunities.  It is 
> somewhat of a numbers game.  And that means that failure to strike any 
> one mark isn't a personal failing or put down.

Spending hours wading through unsuitable jobs trying to find something I 
can actually apply for is really demotivational. But it's probably what 
I need to spend more time doing...

> What if you applied for that job in far away London and actually got to 
> the interview stage?  You get experience and who knows it just might be 
> such a good company or more money than you expected that makes it 
> attractive.  Wouldn't be unknown for them to offer a different role than 
> the advertised one if you are a decent candidate.
> 
> So what if you have to travel a bit to get there?  Read on the train. 
> Catch the eye of the cutey sitting opposite.  Become a cycling nut.
> 
> Sure you don't want to waste your life in travel but sometimes you have 
> to trade a bit of pain for other substantial gains.  Later on you move 
> closer or find another job nearer but as good or better.  It is easier 
> to get into another higher paid job once you are already in a tier. 
> Particularly if you demonstrate some achievement and advancement.
> 
> If you discount 95% of chances without applying then you've really 
> limited the probability of success.  Who knows - it might be that your 
> superficial evaluation is wrong.  Gee - that sounds like dating advice.

I just really dislike London. It's so overcrowded and stressful. Not to 
mention that if I lived there, any possible increase in pay would be 
dwafted me the insane London prices.

Unfortunately, for some reason employers seem to think it's a really 
good place to set up shop...

> Finally, if your current situation is so bad then change it and soon. If 
> the sparse job history is right then you don't have the opportunity to 
> achieve much in your current job.  Plugging away for another couple of 
> years may not be adding anything and in fact it will soon be a negative 
> to have stayed so long in an obviously dead end job and company.  Not to 
> mention the obvious negative motivation and morale. Meanwhile time and 
> opportunities are sliding away.

As if I didn't feel trapped enough already...

Basically I have this job because everybody else refused to employ me. 
And I rather suspect I've already been here quite long enough for it to 
be viewed as a very negative thing by any potential employer. But I'm 
wasting my life here. I want to get out...

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:

> I agree with what Paul wrote, especially the employment history.  Beef 
> it out a bit and take out the negative words like "small".

I posted a sheet of paper to two-dozen people, typed the filled in 
results into an Access database, and printed some pie charts. If you 
take out the word "small" it sounds like I did something really major.

Similarly for the scripting; copying some files from A to B isn't 
exactly rocket science. It's not like I developed a major application. 
It's just some small utilities.

> Use a 
> smaller font size if you can't fit it all on 2 sides, the one you are 
> using is quite large.

Kwi?

> Beef it out more depending on the job you are 
> applying for, eg if you are applying for a programming job then explain 
> more about the scripts and tools you've written.

Is anybody going to care that I wrote a program to copy some files 
around? I mean, we're talking about a few dozen lines of code here. It's 
not exactly GCC.

> Under your skills profile, I would actually write the complete list of 
> languages you have a "long history" with, drop the "etc" at the end.

Hmm, yes, that sentence can be misinterpretted. It makes it sound like I 
have a "long history" with the specific languages listed; I actually 
meant I just have a long history of programming in general.

> Beef out the last bullet point and 
> make it clear that you can learn new languages quickly, if they are 
> expecting you to use a language you are not proficient with this will help.

Heh. Should I include the anicdote about the time I got so bored that I 
learned PostScript in my lunch break just for something to do? ;-) I 
think it's a great story, but I'm not sure whether I should actually 
mention it.

> Bear in mind that when someone is looking at your CV they want to see 
> *evidence* of what you say you are a good at.  For everything you say 
> you do or like, try to think of something that proves you are.  eg 
> "developed a number of scripts", add afterwards something like "these 
> have been working successfully to save blah blah blah and have improved 
> reliability and uptime blah blah".  I think Paul said something similar.

Hmm, this is difficult. I've been programming for decades, but I don't 
really have anything useful to *show* for it. I suppose I could try to 
claim that the lab backup script I wrote saved us £8,000 on an extra 
BackupExec license (although that really is flexing the truth somewhat 
severely).

> Beef out the bit about working liaising with staff, especially the US 
> dudes, nowadays most companies have to deal with foreign people at some 
> time or another and it shows you can communicate effectively.  Also 
> expand the "plan future upgrades" bit, make it sound like you are part 
> of the team that is designing the network rather than just looking after 
> it.

Well I'm *supposed* to work with the US dudes, and I'm *supposed* to be 
responsible for planning future upgrades. But frankly, nobody really 
bothers to communicate with me any more. I just find out about these 
decisions when new hardware arrives on the doorstep.

> Take out the things like filing and photocopying, any monkey can (and 
> does) do that and they are interviewing you for a programmer, not an 
> office assistant.

OK.

> Take out your college diploma and GCSE results (I think you said you'd 
> already done that), and beef out your degree details if you have space. 

Do *you* see any GCSE results listed? I don't.

> It looks a bit confusing at the moment, I would group it into 1st 2nd 
> and 3rd year and then put the details under each.

You realise that the grades I mentioned are just the good ones, right? 
Most of my grades were far less stellar. (E.g., for Accounts & Auditing, 
I think I got a D-. The Research project was an F+. And several 1st year 
modules I failed outright.)

[Nitpick: It was a 4-year course.]

> If I were you I would 
> also take out the grade for your final year project, and replace it with 
> some more details about the project.  Some poeple who are looking at the 
> CV might not know what MVC stands for?

Does it matter? MVC is highly unlikely to be even remotely relevant to 
anything I'll be doing. (And it would take several paragraphs to explain.)

> If you still have space to fill, add in a small "personal hobbies" 
> section, I know some employers want to see some evidence that you have a 
> life outside of work subjects, so it can't hurt.  Just think up of a few 
> non-computing activities you've done once or twice in your life :-) 
> they're not going to ask for proof.

Hmm. Skiing? Rock climbing? SALSA?? Hahaha!

> Remember a CV is there to sell yourself, someone is going to read 20 CVs 
> and choose a few to interview, you want to do everything possible 
> (without lying obviously) to make sure they choose yours.

Yeah... I get the concept. I'm just not sure how to put across how great 
I am without it sounding like I'm blatently lying.

Post a reply to this message

> If you take out the word "small" it sounds like I did something really 
> major.

Good.

> Similarly for the scripting; copying some files from A to B isn't exactly 
> rocket science. It's not like I developed a major application. It's just 
> some small utilities.

Which you'd be surprised how few people could actually get working.  Didn't 
you write something here about that automatic ping program you wrote?  If 
you want, make a list of the titles of each small utility you wrote to help 
with your job, it shows you can.

> Kwi?

Eh?

> Heh. Should I include the anicdote about the time I got so bored that I 
> learned PostScript in my lunch break just for something to do? ;-) I think 
> it's a great story, but I'm not sure whether I should actually mention it.

Yes mention it, not in that way, but list PS as one of the languages you are 
"familiar" with, and even mention that you learnt how to use it in a couple 
of hours if it fits in.

> I suppose I could try to claim that the lab backup script I wrote saved us 
> £8,000 on an extra BackupExec license

Well go for it then, just say something like a script you wrote saved the 
company needing to buy a commerical piece of software that would have cost 
8K.  They are not going to interrogate your manager to check if this is 
exactly true, but they will probably ask you questions about it so there's 
no point in lying.

> Well I'm *supposed* to work with the US dudes, and I'm *supposed* to be 
> responsible for planning future upgrades. But frankly, nobody really 
> bothers to communicate with me any more. I just find out about these 
> decisions when new hardware arrives on the doorstep.

That's all discussion for the interview, when you can explain how you try to 
improve the way the US dudes think about backup, protocols, systems, 
documentation etc.  For the CV just put that you work with them on the 
network infrastructure etc.  In the CV you want to leave no doubt about what 
you do, make it impossible for the person reading it to think "oh well it 
looks like maybe he just does nothing each day".

> Do *you* see any GCSE results listed? I don't.

I see you said you got 3 GCSEs.  That of course leads to the question "does 
he only have 3 GCSEs? that's a bit weird.".  Take out the whole line and 
don't even mention your school.  Leave in the bit at Milton Keynes College 
if you want, but I am thinking you are a bit too old now to be listing what 
you did before University, especially as it wasn't via the normal "A levels" 
path - take it out altogether!

> You realise that the grades I mentioned are just the good ones, right?

Right, but C- sounds bad, and is worse than the others.  If they ask you in 
the interview then you can explain that the grades go down to F or G and 
that you got a C-.  A C- by itself looks bad and there's no space in the CV 
to explain.

> [Nitpick: It was a 4-year course.]

That's why I suggested making it clearer what you did each year, and it will 
then be obvious that it was a 4 year course and not force someone to check 
the years and then guess if you took a year out or whatever.

> Does it matter? MVC is highly unlikely to be even remotely relevant to 
> anything I'll be doing. (And it would take several paragraphs to explain.)

It doesn't matter if it's relevant or not, just write out the words because 
someone who doesn't know what MVC stands for is going to feel much better 
just seeing the words (even if they don't understand) compared to if they 
just see MVC.  Can you not just write a couple more sentences about the 
project, how much of your time did it take up, individual or group project 
etc?

> Hmm. Skiing? Rock climbing? SALSA?? Hahaha!

Exactly.  And photography?  Sound and music production/recording, PLAYING 
THE ORGAN!

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>> If you take out the word "small" it sounds like I did something really 
>> major.
> 
> Good.

Where I'm from, lying isn't good.

>> Similarly for the scripting; copying some files from A to B isn't 
>> exactly rocket science. It's not like I developed a major application. 
>> It's just some small utilities.
> 
> Which you'd be surprised how few people could actually get working.  
> Didn't you write something here about that automatic ping program you 
> wrote?  If you want, make a list of the titles of each small utility you 
> wrote to help with your job, it shows you can.

Mmm, OK...

>> Kwi?
> 
> Eh?

I had having trouble parsing the multiple negatives in your sentence.

>> Heh. Should I include the anicdote about the time I got so bored that 
>> I learned PostScript in my lunch break just for something to do? ;-) I 
>> think it's a great story, but I'm not sure whether I should actually 
>> mention it.
> 
> Yes mention it, not in that way, but list PS as one of the languages you 
> are "familiar" with, and even mention that you learnt how to use it in a 
> couple of hours if it fits in.

I was just listing the languages that readers are most likely to care 
about, but yeah, I guess I could add PostScript.

The point I was really trying to make is that "normal people" don't 
spend their lunch break learning new technical skills that they don't 
actually need for anything "just for the hell of it". Only seriously 
motivated people do that. (And yeah, the fact that it only took me a few 
hours to learn is good too. But motivation is surely good, eh?)

>> I suppose I could try to claim that the lab backup script I wrote 
>> saved us £8,000 on an extra BackupExec license
> 
> Well go for it then, just say something like a script you wrote saved 
> the company needing to buy a commerical piece of software that would 
> have cost 8K.  They are not going to interrogate your manager to check 
> if this is exactly true, but they will probably ask you questions about 
> it so there's no point in lying.

I'd mention that time I saved us £16k for not having to call out that 
Oracle consultant when our DB died... but it's not massively relevant here.

>> Well I'm *supposed* to work with the US dudes, and I'm *supposed* to 
>> be responsible for planning future upgrades. But frankly, nobody 
>> really bothers to communicate with me any more. I just find out about 
>> these decisions when new hardware arrives on the doorstep.
> 
> That's all discussion for the interview, when you can explain how you 
> try to improve the way the US dudes think about backup, protocols, 
> systems, documentation etc.  For the CV just put that you work with them 
> on the network infrastructure etc.

M'okay.

> In the CV you want to leave no doubt 
> about what you do, make it impossible for the person reading it to think 
> "oh well it looks like maybe he just does nothing each day".

The trouble is... I *do* do nothing each day! o_O

>> Do *you* see any GCSE results listed? I don't.
> 
> I see you said you got 3 GCSEs.

Hmmm... well spotted.

> That of course leads to the question 
> "does he only have 3 GCSEs? that's a bit weird.".  Take out the whole 
> line and don't even mention your school.  Leave in the bit at Milton 
> Keynes College if you want, but I am thinking you are a bit too old now 
> to be listing what you did before University, especially as it wasn't 
> via the normal "A levels" path - take it out altogether!

OK. That should free up some space...

>> You realise that the grades I mentioned are just the good ones, right?
> 
> Right, but C- sounds bad, and is worse than the others.  If they ask you 
> in the interview then you can explain that the grades go down to F or G 
> and that you got a C-.  A C- by itself looks bad and there's no space in 
> the CV to explain.

OK then.

>> [Nitpick: It was a 4-year course.]
> 
> That's why I suggested making it clearer what you did each year, and it 
> will then be obvious that it was a 4 year course and not force someone 
> to check the years and then guess if you took a year out or whatever.

Alright...

>> Does it matter? MVC is highly unlikely to be even remotely relevant to 
>> anything I'll be doing. (And it would take several paragraphs to 
>> explain.)
> 
> It doesn't matter if it's relevant or not, just write out the words 
> because someone who doesn't know what MVC stands for is going to feel 
> much better just seeing the words (even if they don't understand) 
> compared to if they just see MVC.  Can you not just write a couple more 
> sentences about the project, how much of your time did it take up, 
> individual or group project etc?

Well MVC is.. uh... a GUI technology. And my project was to make it so 
that the UI can be on a different machine to the backend. But with less 
network overhead than X11 / VNC / RDP / other bitmap-based technologies, 
and more responsiveness than HTML over HTTP.

(Of course, today people don't care any more. They just use HTTP for 
*everything*. God that sucks...)

>> Hmm. Skiing? Rock climbing? SALSA?? Hahaha!
> 
> Exactly.  And photography?  Sound and music production/recording, 
> PLAYING THE ORGAN!

OMG YES, PIPE ORGANS FTW! HOW CAN THEY NOT HIRE ME?! :-D

Post a reply to this message

Paul Fuller wrote:

> Your actual work history over 6 years amounts to 5 bullet points and 
> less than half a page !

Hmm. I should probably change the part where I says I have "5 years' 
experience". Let's make it at least look like I can *count*! o_O

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> I've attached my CV. Please don't laugh. :-P
>
> I don't *have* a covering letter. If I find a company interesting enough
> for me to contact them directly, I write something from scratch.
> (Depending on how I heard of them, what line of work they're in, how
> closely my skills match what they seem to be looking for, etc.)
>

Hi Andrew

It is a good idea to tailor your covering letter for each job.
Here is my attempt to tart up your CV. Of course as others have said you need to
fill out your job description.
Actually I think that I have used too many “I’s” but it is a first pass :)

Good luck


Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Attachments:
Download 'cv-v5-programmer-smca.doc.dat' (30 KB)

Invisible wrote:
> I posted a sheet of paper to two-dozen people, typed the filled in 
> results into an Access database, and printed some pie charts. If you 
> take out the word "small" it sounds like I did something really major.

It doesn't matter!  Do you think the HR person reading the CV can do 
that?  Do you think others applying for the job are going to downplay 
their skills?

> Similarly for the scripting; copying some files from A to B isn't 
> exactly rocket science. It's not like I developed a major application. 

> It's just some small utilities.

No, it's an important backup utility.

> Is anybody going to care that I wrote a program to copy some files 
> around? I mean, we're talking about a few dozen lines of code here. It'
s 
> not exactly GCC.

Yes. It's an important backup and data access utility. When you get to 
the interview, they may or may not ask you.

>> Under your skills profile, I would actually write the complete list of
 
>> languages you have a "long history" with, drop the "etc" at the end.
> 
> Hmm, yes, that sentence can be misinterpretted. It makes it sound like 
I 
> have a "long history" with the specific languages listed; I actually 
> meant I just have a long history of programming in general.

That's good. You can explain that at the interview. :-)

> Heh. Should I include the anicdote about the time I got so bored that I
 
> learned PostScript in my lunch break just for something to do? ;-) I 
> think it's a great story, but I'm not sure whether I should actually 
> mention it.

Mention it at the interview.

> Hmm, this is difficult. I've been programming for decades, but I don't 

> really have anything useful to *show* for it. I suppose I could try to 

> claim that the lab backup script I wrote saved us £8,000 on an extra 

> BackupExec license (although that really is flexing the truth somewhat 

> severely).

Yes. That's exactly the attitude to take. Redo the whole resume with 
that sort of thought in mind.

> Well I'm *supposed* to work with the US dudes, and I'm *supposed* to be
 
> responsible for planning future upgrades. 

You're responsible. You don't have to downplay that either. :-)

> You realise that the grades I mentioned are just the good ones, right? 


That's the point of a resume.

> Most of my grades were far less stellar. (E.g., for Accounts & Auditing
, 
> I think I got a D-. The Research project was an F+. And several 1st yea
r 
> modules I failed outright.)

As an aside, I've never heard of an F+ before. :-)

> Does it matter? MVC is highly unlikely to be even remotely relevant to 

> anything I'll be doing. (And it would take several paragraphs to explai
n.)

Designed and implemented advanced modular user input and presentation 
framework.

> Hmm. Skiing? Rock climbing? SALSA?? Hahaha!

Pipe organ recitals!

> Yeah... I get the concept. I'm just not sure how to put across how grea
t 
> I am without it sounding like I'm blatently lying.

You just don't say anything negative.  Again, don't take this as 
anything more than friendly advice, but try this sort of thing:


Skills:

Extensive knowledge of and passion for a diverse range of topics in 
computing, mathematics and science, including cryptology, 3D graphics, 
artificial neural networks, symbolic computation, and numerous other 
related fields.

Eighteen year history of .... then list every language you could write 
Hello World in. :-)

Passion for teaching and mentoring, with a strong track record of 
explaining complex topics in understandable ways. Samples available on 
request.

Responsible for keeping the UK computing center operational for 30 staff 

members using 50 workstations. The systems included four servers, a 
local LAN, and Internet connectivity. Responsibilities included ensuring 

compliance with extensive government regulations, integration with the 
US offices overseas, and all forms of technical support for computer 
operations. This includes creation and maintenance of database structure 

and operations (including assurance of the safety of irreplacable 
medical data) and creation of numerous custom programs for maintenance 
of file and database information, saving 8000 via automation in the year 

they were implemented. <Like they're going to check that?>

Created and maintained computer policies and procedures, documenting 
same. Documents were approved and even complimented by the auditors of 
<insert company/government agency here>.

Created and executed client surveys to <what?> gather data on new yadda 
yadda, resulting in retention of several major clients.  <You can't just 

say you did it - add in what the result was, even if you have to stretch>


1998-2002
Smalltalk and Java, a pure interpreted OO language and a popular 
powerful compiled OO language.  Also classwork on theory and 
practicalities of database design and organization, as well as a 
practical unit using the Oracle database product.

Also studied interfacing these technologies to the WWW, with detailed 
studies of both run-time performance and developer efficiency. Classes 
on operating systems covered file system design and scheduling dispatch. 

Computer graphics covered both high-quality ray tracing and high-speed 
polygonal rendering with modern graphics cards.

Final year project was to research, design, and implement a distributed 
user interface component using best practices in modularity and efficienc
y.


You can't just say "I did C and Pascal."  You have to say what *you* 
did, not what Ritchie and Wirth did. :-) Pretend the person looking at 
your resume didn't go to school for computers and doesn't even know what 

any of those words mean.

Also, at least in the USA, a lot of places now will just filter on 
keywords. If they're looking for someone to do Oracle databases, they 
toss any resume that doesn't have to word "Oracle" in it without looking 

at it.  So at the bottom of my resume, I put in fairly small print all 
the OSes, languages, frameworks, etc that I'm familiar with, just as a 
list of "technology summary".  It gets you past the automatic 
resume-spam filter.


-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:
> Where I'm from, lying isn't good.

It's not lying. It's no more lying than leaving out the bad grades. 
Whether the scripts were small or not is irrelevant. Nobody else could 
have done it, and it saved the company $8000. The people interviewing 
you care about that sort of thing, not how many lines it took.

> Mmm, OK...

And include it as "wrote dozens of custom utility programs to diagnose 
and automatically correct problems, including network diagnostics 
superior to those employed by our ISP."  ;-)

> I was just listing the languages that readers are most likely to care 
> about, but yeah, I guess I could add PostScript.

Add everything you know. You're trying to get a job where knowing stuff 
is important. The more you list, the more obvious it is you can learn 
stuff.

> The point I was really trying to make is that "normal people" don't 
> spend their lunch break learning new technical skills that they don't 
> actually need for anything "just for the hell of it". Only seriously 
> motivated people do that. 

And seriously smart people.

> I'd mention that time I saved us £16k for not having to call out that
 
> Oracle consultant when our DB died... but it's not massively relevant h
ere.

It's extremely relevant. That's £2400 they can add to your salary when 

you get hired there, because that's how much you'll save them.

>> In the CV you want to leave no doubt about what you do, make it 
>> impossible for the person reading it to think "oh well it looks like 
>> maybe he just does nothing each day".
> 
> The trouble is... I *do* do nothing each day! o_O

But you're not supposed to show that. You want them to ask you why 
you're looking for a new job, at which point you can say "this one isn't 

challenging enough, and I want to stretch my capabilities."

> Well MVC is.. uh... a GUI technology. And my project was to make it so 

> that the UI can be on a different machine to the backend. But with less
 
> network overhead than X11 / VNC / RDP / other bitmap-based technologies
, 
> and more responsiveness than HTML over HTTP.

Yep. Describe it that way. You don't even have to mention MVC. Just 
describe what it does and why it's important, just like you did there. 
"Allows high-quality interactive user graphics to be distributed across 
the network with less overhead and more responsiveness than competing 
mechanisms, programmed using best industry practices of modularity and 
maintainability, as befits an academic exercise."

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

Post a reply to this message

Darren New wrote:

> Do you think others applying for the job are going to downplay 
> their skills?

Now there's an interesting problem. These guys will have stacks of 
people applying to them who are *lying through their teeth* about their 
actual capabilities. How do I distinguish myself from these frauds?

>> Is anybody going to care that I wrote a program to copy some files 
>> around? I mean, we're talking about a few dozen lines of code here. 
>> It's not exactly GCC.
> 
> Yes. It's an important backup and data access utility. When you get to 
> the interview, they may or may not ask you.

M'ok, whatever you say...

>> Heh. Should I include the anicdote about the time I got so bored that 
>> I learned PostScript in my lunch break just for something to do? ;-) I 
>> think it's a great story, but I'm not sure whether I should actually 
>> mention it.
> 
> Mention it at the interview.

OK.

>> Hmm, this is difficult. I've been programming for decades, but I don't 
>> really have anything useful to *show* for it. I suppose I could try to 
>> claim that the lab backup script I wrote saved us £8,000 on an extra 
>> BackupExec license (although that really is flexing the truth somewhat 
>> severely).
> 
> Yes. That's exactly the attitude to take. Redo the whole resume with 
> that sort of thought in mind.

What, severely exaggerating the truth throughout?

>> Well I'm *supposed* to work with the US dudes, and I'm *supposed* to 
>> be responsible for planning future upgrades. 
> 
> You're responsible. You don't have to downplay that either. :-)

Heh, OK.

>> You realise that the grades I mentioned are just the good ones, right? 
> 
> That's the point of a resume.

My point being that only a few of my grades *were* good. Most of them 
weren't.

>> Most of my grades were far less stellar. (E.g., for Accounts & 
>> Auditing, I think I got a D-. The Research project was an F+. And 
>> several 1st year modules I failed outright.)
> 
> As an aside, I've never heard of an F+ before. :-)

IIRC, work was graded on a scale from A down to F, with U meaning 
"ungraded" - i.e., you failed completely.

> Pipe organ recitals!

LOL! As if anybody is going to care... but sure, I can put that in. ;-)

> Eighteen year history of .... then list every language you could write 
> Hello World in. :-)

Erm, I can see this getting me into trouble. It's unwise to claim 
extensive experience with something unless you really do *have* that 
experience.

> Passion for teaching and mentoring, with a strong track record of 
> explaining complex topics in understandable ways. Samples available on 
> request.

Er, dude... like *what*? :-P

> Responsible for keeping the UK computing center operational for 30 staff 
> members using 50 workstations. The systems included four servers, a 
> local LAN, and Internet connectivity. Responsibilities included ensuring 
> compliance with extensive government regulations,

Do I mention the precise regulations in question? In case somebody might 
have heard of them?

> saving 8000 via automation in the year 
> they were implemented. <Like they're going to check that?>

No, but they're going to quizz me about it, so I'd better have a good 
story to tell them.

> Created and maintained computer policies and procedures, documenting 
> same. Documents were approved and even complimented by the auditors of 
> <insert company/government agency here>.

I don't think I'd actually be able to track down exactly which auditors 
specifically mentioned my documents. (I don't think it survived in 
documented form, it was just mentioned informally in the final 
debriefing, which isn't recorded anywhere.)

> Created and executed client surveys to <what?> gather data on new yadda 
> yadda, resulting in retention of several major clients.  <You can't just 
> say you did it - add in what the result was, even if you have to stretch>

We're talking about a vuluntary sector company with a grand total of 3 
employees (not including me) and about 14 "customers". There's nothing 
"major" about it. :-P

What I *could* claim is that the data I produced helped them 
successfully secure additional government funding. (This is why they 
wanted the stats - but I have no clue whether they actually got any 
extra funding as a result.)

> 1998-2002
> Smalltalk and Java, a pure interpreted OO language and a popular 
> powerful compiled OO language.  Also classwork on theory and 
> practicalities of database design and organization, as well as a 
> practical unit using the Oracle database product.
> 
> Also studied interfacing these technologies to the WWW, with detailed 
> studies of both run-time performance and developer efficiency. Classes 
> on operating systems covered file system design and scheduling dispatch. 
> Computer graphics covered both high-quality ray tracing and high-speed 
> polygonal rendering with modern graphics cards.

The last two there being particularly relevant for the company I'm about 
to try to get attention from. (They design stuff like low-end 3D 
hardware and MPEG decoders.)

> You can't just say "I did C and Pascal."  You have to say what *you* 
> did, not what Ritchie and Wirth did. :-) Pretend the person looking at 
> your resume didn't go to school for computers and doesn't even know what 
> any of those words mean.

Whohewho? o_O

> Also, at least in the USA, a lot of places now will just filter on 
> keywords. If they're looking for someone to do Oracle databases, they 
> toss any resume that doesn't have to word "Oracle" in it without looking 
> at it.  So at the bottom of my resume, I put in fairly small print all 
> the OSes, languages, frameworks, etc that I'm familiar with, just as a 
> list of "technology summary".  It gets you past the automatic 
> resume-spam filter.

Maybe I should construct a finite-order Markov model from past 
successful CVs and use that to auto-generate apparently valid English 
content? :-D

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

>> Where I'm from, lying isn't good.
> 
> It's not lying. It's no more lying than leaving out the bad grades.

Technically yes. But claiming to have "extensive knowledge of AutoCAD" 
when really you just work filling paper in an office where AudoCAD is 
used with be an exaggeration to the point of lying. Similarly, claiming 
to have done a large-scale software development exercise when all you 
really did was 20 minutes' work is rather dishonest.

> Whether the scripts were small or not is irrelevant. Nobody else could 
> have done it, and it saved the company $8000. The people interviewing 
> you care about that sort of thing, not how many lines it took.

Well, maybe.

> And include it as "wrote dozens of custom utility programs to diagnose 
> and automatically correct problems, including network diagnostics 
> superior to those employed by our ISP."  ;-)

This is again untrue. The scripts don't "correct" anything, they merely 
monitor, and for a fee our ISP can probably provide us with all kinds of 
far superior software and hardware - and even personnel to run it. (It's 
amazing what companies will do for you if you pay them enough money...)

> Add everything you know. You're trying to get a job where knowing stuff 
> is important. The more you list, the more obvious it is you can learn 
> stuff.

So, what, just dump a giant laundry list of stuff?

Where do I stop? I mean, I could say I know HTML, CSS, XML, XSLT, LaTeX, 
PostScript, AmigaGuide... where do you draw the line?

>> The point I was really trying to make is that "normal people" don't 
>> spend their lunch break learning new technical skills that they don't 
>> actually need for anything "just for the hell of it". Only seriously 
>> motivated people do that. 
> 
> And seriously smart people.

I hypothesize that people become seriously smart by being seriously 
motivated. ;-)

>> I'd mention that time I saved us £16k for not having to call out that 
>> Oracle consultant when our DB died... but it's not massively relevant 
>> here.
> 
> It's extremely relevant. That's £2400 they can add to your salary when 
> you get hired there, because that's how much you'll save them.

If I was applying for an Oracle role... sure. But I'm not.

>> The trouble is... I *do* do nothing each day! o_O
> 
> But you're not supposed to show that.

Sure. But it's hard to disguise something that's actually true.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> This is again untrue. The scripts don't "correct" anything,

You never wrote a script that fixed something?

> and for a fee our ISP can probably provide us with all kinds of 
> far superior software and hardware - and even personnel to run it. (It'
s 
> amazing what companies will do for you if you pay them enough money...)


Sure. And you did it without paying the fee. That's the point.

Suggestion: don't put on your resume that there are a whole bunch of 
other more-experienced people available, either. They know that too. :-)

> Where do I stop? I mean, I could say I know HTML, CSS, XML, XSLT, LaTeX
, 
> PostScript, AmigaGuide... where do you draw the line?

Yep. Put all that in. Anything you think an employer might need.

> I hypothesize that people become seriously smart by being seriously 
> motivated. ;-)

They become seriously educated by being smart and motivated. :-)

>> It's extremely relevant. That's £2400 they can add to your salary wh
en 
>> you get hired there, because that's how much you'll save them.
> 
> If I was applying for an Oracle role... sure. But I'm not.

How do you know you're not?  The company you're applying for may have an 

unadvertised opening for someone translating LaTeX documents stored in 
their Oracle database into HTML and PostScript.

>>> The trouble is... I *do* do nothing each day! o_O
>> But you're not supposed to show that.
> Sure. But it's hard to disguise something that's actually true.

No doubt. But important nonetheless. :-)

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Now there's an interesting problem. These guys will have stacks of 
> people applying to them who are *lying through their teeth* about their 
> actual capabilities. 

And they know that!

> How do I distinguish myself from these frauds?

At the interview.

>> Yes. That's exactly the attitude to take. Redo the whole resume with 
>> that sort of thought in mind.
> 
> What, severely exaggerating the truth throughout?

Yes. Bluntly, yes.

>>> Well I'm *supposed* to work with the US dudes, and I'm *supposed* to 
>>> be responsible for planning future upgrades. 
>>
>> You're responsible. You don't have to downplay that either. :-)
> 
> Heh, OK.
> 
>>> You realise that the grades I mentioned are just the good ones, right? 
>>
>> That's the point of a resume.
> 
> My point being that only a few of my grades *were* good. Most of them 
> weren't.

Yes. That's the point of a resume vs a transcript. ;-)

> IIRC, work was graded on a scale from A down to F, with U meaning 
> "ungraded" - i.e., you failed completely.

The only "incomplete" I got was when I went to the wrong class all 
semester. (Well, it was the right class, I just filled out the wrong 
code number when I signed up. :-)

>> Pipe organ recitals!
> LOL! As if anybody is going to care... but sure, I can put that in. ;-)

You know, if the interviewer also plays the organ, you're right in. 
Seriously. It's people.

>> Eighteen year history of .... then list every language you could write 
>> Hello World in. :-)
> 
> Erm, I can see this getting me into trouble. It's unwise to claim 
> extensive experience with something unless you really do *have* that 
> experience.

You only need extensive experience in some of the stuff. "I have 
extensive experience in many languages. I know blah, blah, and blah." 
Say it in a way that implies you have extensive experience in all of 
them, but which can be read to mean you have extensive experience in 
some of them.

What's the worst that happens: They don't hire you.

>> Passion for teaching and mentoring, with a strong track record of 
>> explaining complex topics in understandable ways. Samples available on 
>> request.
> 
> Er, dude... like *what*? :-P

All the posts you've put up here?  About Haskell and everything else?

>> Responsible for keeping the UK computing center operational for 30 
>> staff members using 50 workstations. The systems included four 
>> servers, a local LAN, and Internet connectivity. Responsibilities 
>> included ensuring compliance with extensive government regulations,
> 
> Do I mention the precise regulations in question? In case somebody might 
> have heard of them?

I think you might mention the department or agency that does the 
regulation, if it's something random people outside the agency would 
recognise.

>> saving 8000 via automation in the year they were implemented. <Like 
>> they're going to check that?>
> 
> No, but they're going to quizz me about it, so I'd better have a good 
> story to tell them.

Certainly. :-)

>> Created and maintained computer policies and procedures, documenting 
>> same. Documents were approved and even complimented by the auditors of 
>> <insert company/government agency here>.
> 
> I don't think I'd actually be able to track down exactly which auditors 
> specifically mentioned my documents. 

Well, you know if it was a company, or a government agency, or what, yes?

> What I *could* claim is that the data I produced helped them 
> successfully secure additional government funding. 

There you go.

"Designed, administered, and analyzed a customer satisfaction survey 
that aided in obtaining additional funding from government sources."

> The last two there being particularly relevant for the company I'm about 
> to try to get attention from. (They design stuff like low-end 3D 
> hardware and MPEG decoders.)

There ya go.

>> You can't just say "I did C and Pascal."  You have to say what *you* 
>> did, not what Ritchie and Wirth did. :-) Pretend the person looking at 
>> your resume didn't go to school for computers and doesn't even know 
>> what any of those words mean.
> 
> Whohewho? o_O

http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=wirth

> Maybe I should construct a finite-order Markov model from past 
> successful CVs and use that to auto-generate apparently valid English 
> content? :-D

Why not?

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:33:16 +0000, Invisible wrote:

> It says "up to" 25K. (In other words, that's not what they'll be paying
> *me*.) There's absolutely no guarantee it'll be any less stressful. It
> could in fact be far *more* stressful.

There are no guarantees in life - that's the way it is.  But like I've 
said before, Andy, DON'T decide for a prospective employer what you're 
worth - THAT'S THEIR JOB, NOT YOURS.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:04:42 +0000, Invisible wrote:

> I'm not seeing any specific job that I can tick ALL the boxes for

YOU DON'T HAVE TO TICK ALL THE BOXES!  THE DECISION TO HIRE YOU OR NOT 
HIRE YOU IS THEIR JOB, NOT YOURS!!!!!

(Sorry for the all caps, but I really do feel like I need to yell this).

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> Add everything you know. You're trying to get a job where knowing stuff
>> is important. The more you list, the more obvious it is you can learn
>> stuff.
> 
> So, what, just dump a giant laundry list of stuff?
> 
> Where do I stop? I mean, I could say I know HTML, CSS, XML, XSLT, LaTeX,
> PostScript, AmigaGuide... where do you draw the line?

Add POV-Ray?

>>> I'd mention that time I saved us £16k for not having to call out that
>>> Oracle consultant when our DB died... but it's not massively relevant
>>> here.
>> 
>> It's extremely relevant. That's £2400 they can add to your salary when
>> you get hired there, because that's how much you'll save them.
> 
> If I was applying for an Oracle role... sure. But I'm not.

Do you make a custom CV for every job you apply for?

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:46:55 +0000, Invisible wrote:

> Neither of these things have saved anybody money. The scripts save my
> time. (Which means I can spent more time surfing the web - but I don't
> have to mention that part.)

This may come as a shock to you, but TIME = MONEY.  Yes, it's true.

You say they pay you 14K per year.  If we break that down into 40 hour 
weeks, 52 weeks per year, that works out to a certain hourly rate you're 
paid.

Now, if you write a script that saves you an hour a day twice a week, 
that's 2 hours per week, 104 hours per year.  Multiply by your hourly 
wage, and you get a dollar figure.  That's money saved.

A prospective employer doesn't need to know how you use the time you've 
saved.  They need to know that you can write scripts that save the 
company money and effort.

I spend some of my time each day doing data entry for an exam 
registration system (my job changed a couple months ago, and earlier this 
month, I moved to a completely different role).  I'm looking to automate 
that process.  It takes me maybe an hour or two every couple of days to 
do what I have to do with the data entry portion of it.  If I can get it 
automated, that saves the company several thousand dollars per year in 
data entry expenses, and I can take on other more interesting tasks that 
might otherwise not get done.

You do a lot of math - so DO THE MATHS.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 10:03:27 +0000, Invisible wrote:

>> If I were you I would
>> also take out the grade for your final year project, and replace it
>> with some more details about the project.  Some poeple who are looking
>> at the CV might not know what MVC stands for?
> 
> Does it matter? MVC is highly unlikely to be even remotely relevant to
> anything I'll be doing. (And it would take several paragraphs to
> explain.)

Not your decision to make.  Don't use acronyms - define them at least 
once.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:11:46 +0000, Invisible wrote:

> scott wrote:
>>> If you take out the word "small" it sounds like I did something really
>>> major.
>> 
>> Good.
> 
> Where I'm from, lying isn't good.

It isn't lying to say "I wrote scripts that saved the company money" if 
that's what you actually did.  It isn't lying to say "I created charts 
for 'x'" if you created charts.

>> Yes mention it, not in that way, but list PS as one of the languages
>> you are "familiar" with, and even mention that you learnt how to use it
>> in a couple of hours if it fits in.
> 
> I was just listing the languages that readers are most likely to care
> about, but yeah, I guess I could add PostScript.

How many times do you have to be told:  Don't decide what's important for 
your interviewer - let them decide that.  Just provide them with the 
facts.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:36:20 +0000, Invisible wrote:

> The head of IT wants me to file a deviation record for this. Rather
> than, you know, put the settings back to what they should be until the
> SOP actually comes into force.

DO IT.  If it isn't written down, it never happened.

> Because let's face it, signing a bit of paper saying "hey, we're sorry"
> makes it all OK, doesn't it?

No, but it does create a paper trail.  If it continues to happen, there's 
a paper trail and that helps cover your butt if and when things go pear-
shaped.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> Pipe organ recitals!
> 
> LOL! As if anybody is going to care... but sure, I can put that in. ;-)

Google would care. I heard they want people with wide interests. Playing an
organ means you have some interests outside computers.

>> Eighteen year history of .... then list every language you could write
>> Hello World in. :-)
> 
> Erm, I can see this getting me into trouble. It's unwise to claim
> extensive experience with something unless you really do *have* that
> experience.

When did Darren tell you to say "extensive experience"?

>> Passion for teaching and mentoring, with a strong track record of
>> explaining complex topics in understandable ways. Samples available on
>> request.
> 
> Er, dude... like *what*? :-P

That Haskell parser thing I don't even remember the name of. I understood it
without even knowing Haskell. I insist: put that in the Haskell wiki!

> The last two there being particularly relevant for the company I'm about
> to try to get attention from. (They design stuff like low-end 3D
> hardware and MPEG decoders.)

Again, it doesn't matter if it's relevant *for that company*; you aren't
going to make custom CVs for each job application.

>> You can't just say "I did C and Pascal."  You have to say what *you*
>> did, not what Ritchie and Wirth did. :-) Pretend the person looking at
>> your resume didn't go to school for computers and doesn't even know what
>> any of those words mean.
> 
> Whohewho? o_O

Ritchie is one of the creators of C. Never heard of Wirth, but from the
sentence I'd guess he made Pascal...

Post a reply to this message

Darren New wrote:
> http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=wirth

Awesome!

Post a reply to this message

Nicolas Alvarez wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=wirth
> 
> Awesome!

Indeed. I was *highly* amused. Even better than JFGI.

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

Post a reply to this message

Nicolas Alvarez wrote:
>>> You can't just say "I did C and Pascal."  You have to say what *you*
>>> did, not what Ritchie and Wirth did. :-) Pretend the person looking at
>>> your resume didn't go to school for computers and doesn't even know what
>>> any of those words mean.
>> Whohewho? o_O
> 
> Ritchie is one of the creators of C. Never heard of Wirth, but from the
> sentence I'd guess he made Pascal...
> 

There was a funny saying about Wirth.  It goes something like 'He was 
called by value not by reference'.

It was big with the compiler writers.

Post a reply to this message

>> This is again untrue. The scripts don't "correct" anything,
> 
> You never wrote a script that fixed something?

Nope.

> Suggestion: don't put on your resume that there are a whole bunch of 
> other more-experienced people available, either. They know that too. :-)

Right, so... why are they going to hire me again??

>> Where do I stop? I mean, I could say I know HTML, CSS, XML, XSLT, 
>> LaTeX, PostScript, AmigaGuide... where do you draw the line?
> 
> Yep. Put all that in. Anything you think an employer might need.

Ooo, AmigaGuide, an obsolete markup language that predates HTML 1.0 by 
several years. They *really* need to know about that! :-P

>> Sure. But it's hard to disguise something that's actually true.
> 
> No doubt. But important nonetheless. :-)

Oh sure, I'm not doubting it's importance, I'm just saying it's really 
hard. :-(

Post a reply to this message

Nicolas Alvarez wrote:

> Add POV-Ray?

LOL! I suppose I could explain that it's a Turing-complete scene 
description language for photorealistic image and animation construction 
/ scripting... that could sound impressive. ;-)

Post a reply to this message

>> Now there's an interesting problem. These guys will have stacks of 
>> people applying to them who are *lying through their teeth* about 
>> their actual capabilities. 
> 
> And they know that!
> 
>> How do I distinguish myself from these frauds?
> 
> At the interview.

Not if you don't get that far because all the lier's CVs looked way 
better. :-(

>>> Yes. That's exactly the attitude to take. Redo the whole resume with 
>>> that sort of thought in mind.
>>
>> What, severely exaggerating the truth throughout?
> 
> Yes. Bluntly, yes.

Isn't that illegal?

>> My point being that only a few of my grades *were* good. Most of them 
>> weren't.
> 
> Yes. That's the point of a resume vs a transcript. ;-)

And *my* point is that I don't have many grades worth mentioning, so if 
I split up my degree by year, it's gonna look pretty thin.

> The only "incomplete" I got was when I went to the wrong class all 
> semester. (Well, it was the right class, I just filled out the wrong 
> code number when I signed up. :-)

My "most impressive" grade was a D-. That doesn't sound very impressive, 
until you realise that I MISSED THE FREAKIN' EXAM! Not only did I manage 
to still pass the module, but I actually got a result several grades 
higher than a fail, on the strength of my coursework alone! (I actually 
missed *all* of the exams that term, and as a result failed everything 
but the programming.)

>>> Pipe organ recitals!
>> LOL! As if anybody is going to care... but sure, I can put that in. ;-)
> 
> You know, if the interviewer also plays the organ, you're right in. 
> Seriously. It's people.

You know... I *did* meet this guy from the Internet once who's 
philosophy on life is that if you enjoy the music of Pink Floyd, you 
must fundamentally be an OK sort of person. Like, "sure, he murdered his 
wife with a golf trophy. But he *loved* Obscured by Clouds, so he can't 
have been that bad a person." WTF?

>>> Eighteen year history of .... then list every language you could 
>>> write Hello World in. :-)
>>
>> Erm, I can see this getting me into trouble. It's unwise to claim 
>> extensive experience with something unless you really do *have* that 
>> experience.
> 
> You only need extensive experience in some of the stuff. "I have 
> extensive experience in many languages. I know blah, blah, and blah." 
> Say it in a way that implies you have extensive experience in all of 
> them, but which can be read to mean you have extensive experience in 
> some of them.
> 
> What's the worst that happens: They don't hire you.

Er, no... They hire you, find out you're lying, and press criminal 
charges for fraud. o_O

>>> Passion for teaching and mentoring, with a strong track record of 
>>> explaining complex topics in understandable ways. Samples available 
>>> on request.
>>
>> Er, dude... like *what*? :-P
> 
> All the posts you've put up here?  About Haskell and everything else?

Perhaps you mean all the posts I've put up here that expire after 30 
days? And besides, how many people have actually learned Haskell? So 
far, I think Warp is about the only person. (And he says he did that by 
reading tutorials online, not from anything *I* wrote.)

>> Whohewho? o_O
> 
> http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=wirth

:-P

Post a reply to this message

Paul Fuller wrote:

> There was a funny saying about Wirth.  It goes something like 'He was 
> called by value not by reference'.
> 
> It was big with the compiler writers.

In that case, I guess one could say that people call Simon P Jones by 
need, not by value...

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:

> There are no guarantees in life - that's the way it is.  But like I've 
> said before, Andy, DON'T decide for a prospective employer what you're 
> worth - THAT'S THEIR JOB, NOT YOURS.

...unless they say "so how much are you expecting us to pay you?" ;-)

Post a reply to this message

>>> Eighteen year history of .... then list every language you could write
>>> Hello World in. :-)
>> Erm, I can see this getting me into trouble. It's unwise to claim
>> extensive experience with something unless you really do *have* that
>> experience.
> 
> When did Darren tell you to say "extensive experience"?

18 years sounds pretty "extensive" to me. ;-)

>>> Passion for teaching and mentoring, with a strong track record of
>>> explaining complex topics in understandable ways. Samples available on
>>> request.
>> Er, dude... like *what*? :-P
> 
> That Haskell parser thing I don't even remember the name of. I understood it
> without even knowing Haskell. I insist: put that in the Haskell wiki!

Oh, you *liked* Parsec, eh?

(Since almost nobody commented on it, I figured nobody was interested...)

Post a reply to this message