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It means "electrocardiogram".
I just had one.
I was expecting them to use metal electrodes and electrolytic gel, but
actually the nurse got out a sheet of card, peeled about a dozen
stickers off of it and started sticking them to me like I was a stamp
book. :-| Obviously several around my ribcage, but oddly enough also
around my various extremities... presumably so they have something to
measure the potential difference against.
Having covered me in stickers, she then started attaching crocodile
clips to them. (Personally, having crocodile clips that close to my
nipples made me nervous!)
I didn't actually get to see the trace myself, but the nurse reconned it
looked quite normal. Obviously I'm waiting for the doctor to have a
chance to look at it for confirmation.
The fun part, of course, is *removing* all the stickers. It's amazing
how far human skin can distort without ripping. o_O Amazing and
uncomfortable! Of course, human hair is not nearly so elastic... >_<
The nurse tells me that for really hairy people, she has a whole box
full of disposible razors. "It's really quite weird shaving some random
Asian man's chest..."
Still, it could have been worse - if I needed an EEG, I really would
have to shave. O_O
And fortunately, no blood samples required! :-D (Why do they always have
to take blood samples from the most tender parts of your anatomy? Why
not your finger or something? I'm sure it's the same blood...)
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On 05-Nov-08 14:16, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> It means "electrocardiogram".
>
> I just had one.
Great, why?
>
> I was expecting them to use metal electrodes and electrolytic gel, but
> actually the nurse got out a sheet of card, peeled about a dozen
> stickers off of it and started sticking them to me like I was a stamp
> book. :-| Obviously several around my ribcage, but oddly enough also
> around my various extremities... presumably so they have something to
> measure the potential difference against.
No, the extremity leads (Einthoven (and Goldberger) leads) are the
oldest ones (about 1903) and still used very much for the diagnosis. The
six precordial ones were added later to improve diagnosis by looking are
more local phenomena.
>
> Having covered me in stickers, she then started attaching crocodile
> clips to them. (Personally, having crocodile clips that close to my
> nipples made me nervous!)
wimp
> I didn't actually get to see the trace myself,
Do you think you could judge it yourself?
> but the nurse reconned it looked quite normal.
I bet she says that to all the boys.
> Obviously I'm waiting for the doctor to have a
> chance to look at it for confirmation.
>
> The fun part, of course, is *removing* all the stickers.
Indeed it is. I do 65 lead ECG with double adhesive tape. \o/
> It's amazing
> how far human skin can distort without ripping. o_O Amazing and
> uncomfortable! Of course, human hair is not nearly so elastic... >_<
>
> The nurse tells me that for really hairy people, she has a whole box
> full of disposible razors. "It's really quite weird shaving some random
> Asian man's chest..."
I have electrodes all around the upper body. I regularly shave the front
and sometimes even the back of very hairy men.
> Still, it could have been worse - if I needed an EEG, I really would
> have to shave. O_O
No, they generally use very different electrodes.
> And fortunately, no blood samples required! :-D (Why do they always have
> to take blood samples from the most tender parts of your anatomy? Why
> not your finger or something? I'm sure it's the same blood...)
>
1) they do the finger for diabetes testing and also for testing at the
blood bank.
2) In don't know where you think they take blood, and possibly don't
want to know. In my experience it is mostly from the arms.
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>> It means "electrocardiogram".
>>
>> I just had one.
> Great, why?
I keep having random chest pains for no defined reason. Presumably my
doctor wants to check it's not due to a life-threatening heart condition.
>> I was expecting them to use metal electrodes and electrolytic gel, but
>> actually the nurse got out a sheet of card, peeled about a dozen
>> stickers off of it and started sticking them to me like I was a stamp
>> book. :-| Obviously several around my ribcage, but oddly enough also
>> around my various extremities... presumably so they have something to
>> measure the potential difference against.
> No, the extremity leads (Einthoven (and Goldberger) leads) are the
> oldest ones (about 1903) and still used very much for the diagnosis. The
> six precordial ones were added later to improve diagnosis by looking are
> more local phenomena.
I still find it astonishing that they can build an amplifying powerful
enough and sensitive enough to detect the absurdly small electrical
currents, diluted across vast distances in space, and yet *not* pick up
the sea of EM interference in the room... Pretty amazing stuff!
> wimp
Er, yes...?
>> I didn't actually get to see the trace myself,
>
> Do you think you could judge it yourself?
No. I'm just curios. (Personally I wouldn't even know a T wave from a U
wave...)
>> but the nurse reconned it looked quite normal.
>
> I bet she says that to all the boys.
THAT'S WHAT *SHE* SAID!
>> The fun part, of course, is *removing* all the stickers.
>
> Indeed it is. I do 65 lead ECG with double adhesive tape. \o/
o_O
> I have electrodes all around the upper body. I regularly shave the front
> and sometimes even the back of very hairy men.
TMI?
>> Still, it could have been worse - if I needed an EEG, I really would
>> have to shave. O_O
>
> No, they generally use very different electrodes.
Sure. But I'd imagine you still need to shave your head to get them
anywhere near your scalp.
What gets me is the people who try to *sleep* wearing those things...
>> And fortunately, no blood samples required! :-D (Why do they always
>> have to take blood samples from the most tender parts of your anatomy?
>> Why not your finger or something? I'm sure it's the same blood...)
>>
> 1) they do the finger for diabetes testing and also for testing at the
> blood bank.
> 2) In don't know where you think they take blood, and possibly don't
> want to know. In my experience it is mostly from the arms.
Yeah - the soft, tender part in your elbow. What, they couldn't find
anywhere more painful? :-S
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On 05-Nov-08 16:49, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> It means "electrocardiogram".
>>>
>>> I just had one.
>
>> Great, why?
>
> I keep having random chest pains for no defined reason. Presumably my
> doctor wants to check it's not due to a life-threatening heart condition.
makes sense.
>
> I still find it astonishing that they can build an amplifying powerful
> enough and sensitive enough to detect the absurdly small electrical
> currents, diluted across vast distances in space, and yet *not* pick up
> the sea of EM interference in the room... Pretty amazing stuff!
EM (if you mean computers, mobile phones etc) is not the problem
generally, mains power supply is.
I tried to find an image of the first string galvanometer in use, this
is not the one I was looking for, but it will do:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Willem_Einthoven_ECG.jpg
Note that this is a lead between a leg and the left arm. The buckets
contain salty water. Here comes the part that may or may not amaze you:
Here the patient is sitting next the machine. In actual clinical use the
first one was 2 kilometer down the road connected with a telephone wire
to the buckets in the hospital. There were actual two lines, one for the
machine and one for Einthoven to talk to the clinician. At our ECG
course I show this picture to the students, tell them about the
telephone and ask them why that was technically possible then, but
absolutely impossible with the current state of technology. Sometimes
they get it, after some confusion.
>>> I didn't actually get to see the trace myself,
>>
>> Do you think you could judge it yourself?
>
> No. I'm just curios. (Personally I wouldn't even know a T wave from a U
> wave...)
The T is the slow part after the QRS, the fast part with the highest
excursions. The U wave may be after that. It is not present in every
lead and not in every person. Frankly, no one knows what generates it.
>> I have electrodes all around the upper body. I regularly shave the
>> front and sometimes even the back of very hairy men.
>
> TMI?
?Can't find a relevant meaning for that acronym
>
>>> Still, it could have been worse - if I needed an EEG, I really would
>>> have to shave. O_O
>>
>> No, they generally use very different electrodes.
>
> Sure. But I'd imagine you still need to shave your head to get them
> anywhere near your scalp.
No. small electrodes fitted with conduction glue like material IIRC
>
> What gets me is the people who try to *sleep* wearing those things...
This is from the company that builds our amplifiers, they are also used
for sleep research so this could give you an idea:
http://www.biosemi.com/applications.htm
>>> And fortunately, no blood samples required! :-D (Why do they always
>>> have to take blood samples from the most tender parts of your
>>> anatomy? Why not your finger or something? I'm sure it's the same
>>> blood...)
>>>
>> 1) they do the finger for diabetes testing and also for testing at the
>> blood bank.
>> 2) In don't know where you think they take blood, and possibly don't
>> want to know. In my experience it is mostly from the arms.
>
> Yeah - the soft, tender part in your elbow. What, they couldn't find
> anywhere more painful? :-S
>
Ah, it seems we have found a biological abnormality here. FYI, in most
people the density of nerve endings in the elbow is much less tjan in
the fingertips.
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Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] dev null> wrote:
> Still, it could have been worse - if I needed an EEG, I really would
> have to shave. O_O
I've never had to shave for an EEG, and my hair is pretty thick and
uncooperative.
Never had to shave for a sleep study either.
Ooops, TMI?
(POV community now wondering about Cousin Ricky's mental stability)
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On 05-Nov-08 17:23, Cousin Ricky wrote:
> Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>> Still, it could have been worse - if I needed an EEG, I really would
>> have to shave. O_O
>
> I've never had to shave for an EEG, and my hair is pretty thick and
> uncooperative.
>
> Never had to shave for a sleep study either.
>
> Ooops, TMI?
This TMI one could be Too Much Information, correct?
> (POV community now wondering about Cousin Ricky's mental stability)
I assume you either have a sleep disorder or a suspicion of sleep apnoea.
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Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> And fortunately, no blood samples required! :-D (Why do they always have
> to take blood samples from the most tender parts of your anatomy? Why
> not your finger or something? I'm sure it's the same blood...)
The fingertips are the most sensitive part of the human body. You *really*
want blood samples taken from your fingers?
--
- Warp
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andrel wrote:
>>> I have electrodes all around the upper body. I regularly shave the
>>> front and sometimes even the back of very hairy men.
>>
>> TMI?
> ?Can't find a relevant meaning for that acronym
>>
Too much information :-)
John
--
"Eppur si muove" - Galileo Galilei
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Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> It means "electrocardiogram".
>
> I just had one.
>
Combine this post with Tim’s
http://www.fiftythree.org/etherkiller/
???
Stephen
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Warp wrote:
> Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>> And fortunately, no blood samples required! :-D (Why do they always have
>> to take blood samples from the most tender parts of your anatomy? Why
>> not your finger or something? I'm sure it's the same blood...)
>
> The fingertips are the most sensitive part of the human body. You *really*
> want blood samples taken from your fingers?
I believe the distinction of being *the* most sentivite part belongs
to... well no, let's not go there... but I believe your mouth rates
higher than your fingertips.
The important thing is that fingers get a lot of wear, so fingertips are
*touch*. Just the other day, I used mine to hang off a 10 m rock wall.
You wouldn't dare do that with your elbow! It'd hurt too much. (Fewer
nerves, but the skin is soft.)
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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>> I still find it astonishing that they can build an amplifying powerful
>> enough and sensitive enough to detect the absurdly small electrical
>> currents, diluted across vast distances in space, and yet *not* pick
>> up the sea of EM interference in the room... Pretty amazing stuff!
>
> EM (if you mean computers, mobile phones etc) is not the problem
> generally, mains power supply is.
Yeah, I guess most EM is too high-frequency to interfere with the
signals of interest... (A normal heatbeat is, what, a few Hz?)
>> No. I'm just curios. (Personally I wouldn't even know a T wave from a
>> U wave...)
>
> The T is the slow part after the QRS, the fast part with the highest
> excursions. The U wave may be after that. It is not present in every
> lead and not in every person. Frankly, no one knows what generates it.
I find it... uh... "interesting" how many medical effects nobody
understands. Like, apparently nobody actually knows why menthol works. o_O
>> Sure. But I'd imagine you still need to shave your head to get them
>> anywhere near your scalp.
>
> No. small electrodes fitted with conduction glue like material IIRC
...which is what I was expecting for the ECG. But apparently not.
>> Yeah - the soft, tender part in your elbow. What, they couldn't find
>> anywhere more painful? :-S
>>
> Ah, it seems we have found a biological abnormality here. FYI, in most
> people the density of nerve endings in the elbow is much less tjan in
> the fingertips.
See my other reply. Fingertips have to be tough. Elbows don't.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Doctor John wrote:
> Too much information :-)
Also known as "your overshare light is on."
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> I believe the distinction of being *the* most sentivite part belongs
> to... well no, let's not go there...
You'd be surprised. Google images for "nervous system homunculus".
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> > The fingertips are the most sensitive part of the human body. You *really*
> > want blood samples taken from your fingers?
> I believe the distinction of being *the* most sentivite part belongs
> to... well no, let's not go there... but I believe your mouth rates
> higher than your fingertips.
No, I'm pretty sure the skin of the fingertips is the most sensitive of
the human body. I remember reading that (maybe it was from the Guinnes book
of records, or something like that).
OTOH, it might be talking about other type of sensitivity than pain. For
example, you can read braille writing with your fingertips, but I'm pretty
certain you can't do it with your tongue, even though a cut on your tongue
might hurt more than a cut on your fingertip.
Anyways, a cut in the finger hurts a lot. It's by far not the first place
I would like a needle to be poked into me.
--
- Warp
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Warp wrote:
> Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>> And fortunately, no blood samples required! :-D (Why do they always have
>> to take blood samples from the most tender parts of your anatomy? Why
>> not your finger or something? I'm sure it's the same blood...)
>
> The fingertips are the most sensitive part of the human body. You *really*
> want blood samples taken from your fingers?
>
At school we took blood samples from our fingertips. And all
hemoglobin(?) -measurements made for me are done by taking a blood
sample from my fingertip. It's not that bad.
-Aero
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Warp wrote:
> Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>>> The fingertips are the most sensitive part of the human body. You *really*
>>> want blood samples taken from your fingers?
>
>> I believe the distinction of being *the* most sentivite part belongs
>> to... well no, let's not go there... but I believe your mouth rates
>> higher than your fingertips.
>
> No, I'm pretty sure the skin of the fingertips is the most sensitive of
> the human body. I remember reading that (maybe it was from the Guinnes book
> of records, or something like that).
>
> OTOH, it might be talking about other type of sensitivity than pain.
Possibly.
I understand that the greatest density of *nerve endings* (which doesn't
automatically correlate with sensitivity) is the clitoris. (If you
happen to have one. Obviously.) And that's by a considerable margin.
As to which parts have the best spatial resolution, touch / pressure /
pain sensitivity, etc... well you would probably have a long argument
about that. Surely your fingertips are high up on the list, but I doubt
they're at the top. (Although surely higher than your elbow, which is
the point you were really trying to make...)
> For
> example, you can read braille writing with your fingertips, but I'm pretty
> certain you can't do it with your tongue, even though a cut on your tongue
> might hurt more than a cut on your fingertip.
Funny you should mention that... I read about some people who conducted
an experiment where patients learned to "see" through their tongue by
having a set of electrodes connected to it. So merely reading braille
should be quite easy.
> Anyways, a cut in the finger hurts a lot. It's by far not the first place
> I would like a needle to be poked into me.
Actually, I'd prefer to not have any needles poked into me anywhere... >_<
I'm sure you'll agree with me on that point!
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Eero Ahonen wrote:
> At school we took blood samples from our fingertips. And all
> hemoglobin(?) -measurements made for me are done by taking a blood
> sample from my fingertip. It's not that bad.
Yeah. Unless you play piano.
...oh, wait... o_O
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Eero Ahonen wrote:
>
>> At school we took blood samples from our fingertips. And all
>> hemoglobin(?) -measurements made for me are done by taking a blood
>> sample from my fingertip. It's not that bad.
>
> Yeah. Unless you play piano.
>
I've played piano.
-Aero
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On 05-Nov-08 19:24, Doctor John wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>>>> I have electrodes all around the upper body. I regularly shave the
>>>> front and sometimes even the back of very hairy men.
>>> TMI?
>> ?Can't find a relevant meaning for that acronym
>
> Too much information :-)
>
That was indeed the most likely one. I reasoned that if it was it was
probably meant as a joke. Yet, not the kind of jokes Andy normally
makes, so I was not sure I got it.
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On 05-Nov-08 21:14, Darren New wrote:
> Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> I believe the distinction of being *the* most sentivite part belongs
>> to... well no, let's not go there...
>
> You'd be surprised. Google images for "nervous system homunculus".
>
The big question is if these images are made by Americans. If it is
japanese research I assume you can trust them, if it's dutch it may be
correct too.
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Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> > Anyways, a cut in the finger hurts a lot. It's by far not the first place
> > I would like a needle to be poked into me.
> Actually, I'd prefer to not have any needles poked into me anywhere... >_<
> I'm sure you'll agree with me on that point!
I prefer doing what is best for my health even if it requires for some
needle to be poked on me.
Needles have alway stressed me. The worst thing is to have to *wait*
for a long time knowing that they will give you an injection. Waiting is
stressful, you know when your abs get all tense, etc. It consumes your
blood sugar making you dizzy and feel ill.
In fact, I don't really fear the needle itself. I fear the stress, which
causes the dizziness. Which is rather ironic: Fear of the stress causes the
stress you are fearing to get.
OTOH, it has gotten much better in later years. A couple of years ago
I had two vaccine shots because I was traveling abroad (one for hepatitis A
and another for tetanus, as the old one was getting expired), and I felt
nothing. No stress, no dizziness, nothing. I felt quite manly when I could
just take the shots like nothing.
The hepatitis vaccine was one of those which consists of two parts. Half
a year later I had to take the second shot, and still I didn't get any
stress symptoms. It was cool.
--
- Warp
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Eero Ahonen <aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid> wrote:
> At school we took blood samples from our fingertips. And all
> hemoglobin(?) -measurements made for me are done by taking a blood
> sample from my fingertip. It's not that bad.
I have always wondered why they do that. There are many parts of your
body where you basically don't feel any pain, or very little pain from cuts.
Why the fingertips? It sounds like one of the worst possible places to make
cuts, painwise.
--
- Warp
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andrel wrote:
> The big question is if these images are made by Americans.
I was kind of surprised at these images. I've seen similar things in
museums (i.e., in actual 3D) where the bits in question were about the
size of a finger or somewhat smaller in these pics. So, yah, ya never know.
ANd of course, this is just the physical number of nerves in the brain
dedicated to those areas. It says nothing about how they interact with
the rest, hence nothing about how "sensitive" things really are.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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Warp wrote:
> It sounds like one of the worst possible places to make
> cuts, painwise.
It's not a cut, it's more a poke. Nowadays it's almost painless, about
the same as pinching your fingertip between your fingernails (of the
other hand, of course). I'd guess it's because it's all capilaries there
(and convenient of course), so it's really unlikely to bleed long enough
to get infected or anything. I.e., it clots really fast, and if you only
need a drop or two, there you go.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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>> Actually, I'd prefer to not have any needles poked into me anywhere... >_<
>
>> I'm sure you'll agree with me on that point!
>
> I prefer doing what is best for my health even if it requires for some
> needle to be poked on me.
Yeah, well... I'd prefer for it to not be necessary at all. But hey.
> In fact, I don't really fear the needle itself. I fear the stress, which
> causes the dizziness. Which is rather ironic: Fear of the stress causes the
> stress you are fearing to get.
Yeah, that *is* ironic.
On the other hand, I'm depressed because nobody likes me. And how much
do you want to bet that nobody likes me because I'm always depressed all
the time?
IIRC, at school I had an injection for some vaccine or other. But that
was into the shoulder muscle. Just look the other way. It kinda stings,
but it's fine. ("Relax please." The words guaranteed to cause every
muscle in your body to become rigid with tension!)
Actually, wait... Last time I went to the dentist, he injected me with
some kind of anesthetic. That hurt quite a bit. Especially when injected
into the pulp cavity inside the tooth. Still, the worst part is
afterwards, when the drugs wear off... o_O
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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