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On Sun, 02 Nov 2008 11:38:22 +0000, Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] dev null> wrote:
>
>Heh. I never did comprehend the whole left wing/right wing thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-right_politics
>I just
>tend to think that all politicians are inherantly power-hungry, lying,
>cheating, manipulative, evil scum. It's a very simple thing to remember. ;-)
Mostly true but beware idealists :)
--
Regards
Stephen
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>> Heh. I never did comprehend the whole left wing/right wing thing.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-right_politics
Um... ouch?
>> I just
>> tend to think that all politicians are inherantly power-hungry, lying,
>> cheating, manipulative, evil scum. It's a very simple thing to remember. ;-)
>
> Mostly true but beware idealists :)
Heh. I thought those were extinct now?
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On 02-Nov-08 12:38, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> ...then I'm guessing it also helps to know what a "republican" is too.
>>>
>> I had a problem remembering who was who too. What helps for me is that
>> democrats put the need of the people first (or at least they suggest
>> that) while republicans put the need of the nation first (assuming
>> that the interest of themselves coincides with the interest of the
>> nation).
>> From this it is not hard to infer that Clinton and Obama are
>> democrats whereas the Bushes, Reagan and McCain are republicans. I
>> hope that helps.
>
> Heh. I never did comprehend the whole left wing/right wing thing.
left/right does not really describe it fully. Not even in the US.
> I just tend to think that all politicians are inherently power-hungry,
> lying, cheating, manipulative, evil scum.
No that are just the ones you see on the TV. These are the ones that
either got a top position by being power hungry or are incompetent
enough to hit the headlines before they got there. Still most of the
politicians are motivated and more or less competent. Unfortunately you
have your scum at any level, so even the local politicians (and
professors, managers, bankers... for that matter) will seem to be all
corrupt.
> It's a very simple thing to remember.
That will not make it easy to vote. I assume you don't do that.
>;-)
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On 02-Nov-08 12:57, Stephen wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Nov 2008 11:38:22 +0000, Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>
>> Heh. I never did comprehend the whole left wing/right wing thing.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-right_politics
>
>
I am confused by the headings
Modern international use of the terms
versus
Modern U.S. use of the terms
Did I miss something?
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>> Heh. I never did comprehend the whole left wing/right wing thing.
> left/right does not really describe it fully. Not even in the US.
As I understand it, it's only meant to be a first-level summary.
>> I just tend to think that all politicians are inherently power-hungry,
>> lying, cheating, manipulative, evil scum.
> No that are just the ones you see on the TV.
Heh, maybe you're right.
>> It's a very simple thing to remember.
> That will not make it easy to vote. I assume you don't do that.
No. When all politicians are equally evil, it doesn't seem to matter
which one you pick.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On 02-Nov-08 13:31, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> Heh. I never did comprehend the whole left wing/right wing thing.
>> left/right does not really describe it fully. Not even in the US.
>
> As I understand it, it's only meant to be a first-level summary.
It mostly works in two party states. If you live in a country where
there are 10 or more parties in parliament you realize that politics is
a multi dimensional space.
BTW IMHO it is slightly more subtle. It is not the case that politicians
and parties can be divided in left and right, but voters can be divided
in those that dislike lefties and those that hate right wing bastards.
Many of them will deny that they are right or left wing themselves.
Still you can identify the non-left and the non-right parties. You might
equate non-left with right, but that does not do them justice ;)
>>> It's a very simple thing to remember.
>> That will not make it easy to vote. I assume you don't do that.
>
> No. When all politicians are equally evil, it doesn't seem to matter
> which one you pick.
Next election watch the people not the party. Vote for someone you trust
and see if (s)he delivers. If you do not know enough of the people, the
best ones are often the women that are more intelligent than the leader.
You know how he got there and she does too.
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On Sun, 02 Nov 2008 13:32:44 +0100, andrel <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
>On 02-Nov-08 12:57, Stephen wrote:
>> On Sun, 02 Nov 2008 11:38:22 +0000, Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>>
>>> Heh. I never did comprehend the whole left wing/right wing thing.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-right_politics
>>
>>
>I am confused by the headings
>Modern international use of the terms
>versus
>Modern U.S. use of the terms
>
>Did I miss something?
You have got to remember the far left is Fascist-ism (sp?) and the far right is
hard to distinguish from that.
--
Regards
Stephen
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>
> No. When all politicians are equally evil, it doesn't seem to matter
> which one you pick.
>
You'll need to pick one who values same thing (for himself, naturally)
as you do (for yourself, naturally).
-Aero
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Stephen <mcavoysAT@aoldotcom> wrote:
> You have got to remember the far left is Fascist-ism (sp?) and the far right is
> hard to distinguish from that.
I thought far left is communism and far right is fascism/nazism.
--
- Warp
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Heh. I never did comprehend the whole left wing/right wing thing.
FWIW, me neither.
>>>They originally referred to the seating arrangements in the various
legislative bodies of France,
Ah, that might help explain my confusion. :-)
There's also the whole "liberal/conservative" bit, which also doesn't
mean what the words say.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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Warp wrote:
> I thought far left is communism and far right is fascism/nazism.
Those can be hard to distinguish when it's government-enforced communism.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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andrel wrote:
> BTW IMHO it is slightly more subtle. It is not the case that politicians
> and parties can be divided in left and right, but voters can be divided
> in those that dislike lefties and those that hate right wing bastards.
I think that's the most wonderful summary of US politics I've seen in
ages. :-)
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> BTW IMHO it is slightly more subtle. It is not the case that
>> politicians and parties can be divided in left and right, but voters
>> can be divided in those that dislike lefties and those that hate right
>> wing bastards.
>
> I think that's the most wonderful summary of US politics I've seen in
> ages. :-)
I dunno. That sounds like a liberal talking...<G>
--
"I think not," said Descartes, and promptly disappeared.
/\ /\ /\ /
/ \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z
>>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
anl
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Heh. I never did comprehend the whole left wing/right wing thing. I just
Don't bother. Just focus on values, promises, and output. Think of how
you think things should be, and if a politician thinks likewise, you may
want to support him (but do look at critiques of your POV). It then
shouldn't matter if you find out he's extreme right/left/both.
Wow. That sounded like very generic meaningless advice.<G>
> tend to think that all politicians are inherantly power-hungry, lying,
> cheating, manipulative, evil scum. It's a very simple thing to remember.
> ;-)
Used to be my way of thinking. Till I came across some who were the
exact opposite. Not surprisingly, they're often the most ignored by
everyone.
Frankly (and I don't mean to criticize), your way of thinking is often
why most politicians are evil. Think about it...
--
"I think not," said Descartes, and promptly disappeared.
/\ /\ /\ /
/ \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z
>>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
anl
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Darren New wrote:
> I think that's the most wonderful summary of US politics I've seen in
> ages. :-)
I don't know about anywhere else, but in the UK "politics" seems to
involve a bunch of grumpy old men sitting in a room jeering at each
other, rather like a bunch of 12 year old schoolboys. As soon as anybody
announces a policy, everybody else immediately says how wrong it is.
(They never suggest anything better themselves, mind you - they just
pick holes in everybody else's ideas.) Presumably which policy gets
implemented varies according to which gang jeers the loudest?
I'm sorry - is this the 21st century??
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> He's not on in enough states to actually win, though.
No, I think only 5 or 6 are: McCain, Obama, McKinney, Nader, and either
Bob Barr or Chuck Baldwin or both.
--
"I think not," said Descartes, and promptly disappeared.
/\ /\ /\ /
/ \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z
>>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
anl
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On 02-Nov-08 18:48, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>
>> I think that's the most wonderful summary of US politics I've seen in
>> ages. :-)
>
> I don't know about anywhere else, but in the UK "politics" seems to
> involve a bunch of grumpy old men sitting in a room jeering at each
> other, rather like a bunch of 12 year old schoolboys.
I think the parliamentary democracy is though to have been born in the
UK, perhaps it never grew up.
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On Sun, 02 Nov 2008 12:27:33 +0100, andrel wrote:
> That may or may not be more true than my rule of thumb, but it almost
> destroys
> democrat <-> people/voters
> republican <-> nation
> For me the main value is that I do not live in the US, so the party
> lines have not been part of my upbringing. The problem for me (and
> possibly Andy, although it could also be his habit of living under
> stones) is that in my country the two concepts are not mutual exclusive.
> Indeed our republicans are republicans *because* they are fundamentalist
> democrats. Still, when I want to guess which party in the US wants to
> reform the medical system and which one is most likely to start a war,
> it helps a lot.
An outside view does always bring a different perspective - and that's
the thing I find interesting. I'd never thought about it that way myself.
I think most people are more complex than either ideology lays out - for
example, I consider myself a fiscal conservative but not a social
conservative.
Jim
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On Sun, 02 Nov 2008 11:49:11 -0600, Mueen Nawaz wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> He's not on in enough states to actually win, though.
>
> No, I think only 5 or 6 are: McCain, Obama, McKinney, Nader, and
either
> Bob Barr or Chuck Baldwin or both.
Yeah, I believe that is correct.
Jim
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 12:46:17 +0000, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>
>>>> politics don't quite mix with geek humor... :P
>>> Oh, I don't know, I found the whole series to be very entertaining. :-)
>> Oh, it's *definitely* entertaining. I just have _no clue_ what the hell
>> they're on about... :-}
>
> The politics of the 'net in the US was my read. It helps to know that
> Ron Paul was on the Republican ticket and is still running for president
> but with a different party.
>
> Jim
Had a long chat with the "supporters" of this guy on a science blog. In
fact... They won't fracking shut up, even after pointing out to them
that their "claims" that the government is supposed to only protect
against things like fraud, theft, violence, etc., wouldn't have done
anything to **stop** the current financial crisis, because nothing the
companies that caused it did falls into **any** of those categories. In
point of fact, what caused the problem was the government opting to
believe the banks, when those entities told them, "We know the market,
and know what we are doing", and opted to **not** regulate them, place
any new limits on what they could do, or in any way restrain them from
loaning out more money than they had, in absurd amounts, to people only
an idiot would believe had the means to pay them back. Oddly, the only
people that one could "claim" where committing, say fraud, for example,
might be the people filling out the applications for credit, and most
sane people would ask themselves, "Well, if the banks 'knew' it was
fraud, why the hell did they accept the applications?!"
But, somehow, Ron Paul supporters, and other "Libertarians" still insist
that the solution is smaller government, less regulation, privatization
of *everything*, including, in the extreme cases of delusion for some of
them, the military (apparently the Blackwater incident was something
they missed completely), while the government, more or less, doesn't do
anything at all.
At this point, the very idea that "any" of them will be elected scares
the hell out of me. But, its just a choice between that, mild, empty
stomach feeling you get when you think something is wrong, or a sweat
soaked nightmare you get when you are sure you are about to be hurt
**really** badly by an accelerating car, or a charging rabid animal.
Me, I opted to go for the only candidate with a chance of winning, who
merely made me very uncomfortable. My parents.. have apparently both
bought into the bullshit idiocy of the theocrats, who have spent the
last 20+ years shoveling every sick idiot in the country onto the
national news, whined about failing morality, and exaggerated every
minor hiccup into a sign of the end of civilization, and are opting to
vote for the ones who have made it their mission this election to kiss
the asses of the same idiots that have been lying about these things for
decades. I'd bang my head on my desk, but the bruise is already so large
at this point that the next hit would probably do brain damage.
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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On 02-Nov-08 20:35, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Nov 2008 12:27:33 +0100, andrel wrote:
>
>> That may or may not be more true than my rule of thumb, but it almost
>> destroys
>> democrat <-> people/voters
>> republican <-> nation
>> For me the main value is that I do not live in the US, so the party
>> lines have not been part of my upbringing. The problem for me (and
>> possibly Andy, although it could also be his habit of living under
>> stones) is that in my country the two concepts are not mutual exclusive.
>> Indeed our republicans are republicans *because* they are fundamentalist
>> democrats. Still, when I want to guess which party in the US wants to
>> reform the medical system and which one is most likely to start a war,
>> it helps a lot.
>
> An outside view does always bring a different perspective - and that's
> the thing I find interesting. I'd never thought about it that way myself.
> I think most people are more complex than either ideology lays out - for
> example, I consider myself a fiscal conservative
I don't know what that means (i.e. not a term used here.) Does that mean
that you are against raising taxes? In favor of decreasing taxes for the
rich? Or simply keeping the system as it is?
Anyway, this outsider (yes I am, to the point that I do think the US is
international, a point unfortunately missed by Stephen :( ;) ) thinks
that the current US government has directly and indirectly borrowed so
much money from other countries that one day they'll have to pay back
one way or another. Even McCain will have to raise taxes if he doesn't
want to continue Bush's irresponsible politics. He knows that, and I am
frankly amazed that large parts of the US electorate let him get away
with attacking Obama because he is a 'socialist' and will therefor
surely increase taxes. But I am just an outsider.
> but not a social conservative.
Which means you wouldn't mind if neighbours moved? ;)
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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> against things like fraud, theft, violence, etc., wouldn't have done
> anything to **stop** the current financial crisis, because nothing the
> companies that caused it did falls into **any** of those categories.
Except to the extent they are regulated banks and the government already
took over banking and money, yeah. I mean, given that you let the
government control printing of the money, confiscating gold, and
eliminating risk for banks, no, there's nothing they did that fall into
those categories. One of the things Ron Paul (as I understand it)
advocates is getting the government out of the business of trying to
regulate the economy in the first place.
> or in any way restrain them from
> loaning out more money than they had, in absurd amounts,
That's where the "fraud" part comes in, you see. Except the government
already passed laws (back in 1916 or so) saying they're allowed to.
> But, somehow, Ron Paul supporters, and other "Libertarians" still insist
Be aware that "libertarians" are like "pagans". There's maybe 3 points
of agreement between any two people in those groups, and the rest is
open to interpretation. :-)
> At this point, the very idea that "any" of them will be elected scares
> the hell out of me.
Also be aware that, GWB notwithstanding, the President doesn't make the
laws in the USA. :-)
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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"andrel" <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message
news:490### [at] hotmailcom...
> I had a problem remembering who was who too. What helps for me is that
> democrats put the need of the people first (or at least they suggest that)
> while republicans put the need of the nation first (assuming that
That's an interesting perspective, but there are many situations where the
two parties are the exact opposite of what you're saying here.
I find a more accurate description is their stance on regulation. Democrats
favor heavy regulation and Government involvement, Republicans want to be
left alone. Though this, too, is sometimes inaccurate.
Maybe if the parties made more sense, I'd be able to pick one and stick to
it. The way things are, though, I usually just pick the candidate that's
going to do the least amount of damage.
...Chambers
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"Darren New" <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote in message
news:490e1dc5$1@news.povray.org...
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> against things like fraud, theft, violence, etc., wouldn't have done
>> anything to **stop** the current financial crisis, because nothing the
>> companies that caused it did falls into **any** of those categories.
>
> Except to the extent they are regulated banks and the government already
> took over banking and money, yeah. I mean, given that you let the
> government control printing of the money, confiscating gold, and
> eliminating risk for banks, no, there's nothing they did that fall into
> those categories. One of the things Ron Paul (as I understand it)
> advocates is getting the government out of the business of trying to
> regulate the economy in the first place.
It sounds nice in theory, especially when you've studied Adam Smith and
believe in the "invisible hand", but history has shown us that an unmanaged
economy can get, quite literally, stuck in a rut(1). In such situations,
massive economic intervention is the only way to achieve anything close to
normal(2) productivity.
(1) OK, I've only taken one semester of economics, but it was enough to
convince me that Keynes was right about the Great Depression. The economy
got to a point where 1/3 of the population was unemployed, and on its own it
would have probably stayed that way for decades.
(2) It varies, but most economists call full production a 5% unemployment
rate (or thereabouts).
...Chambers
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On Sun, 02 Nov 2008 22:18:28 +0100, andrel wrote:
>> I think most people are more complex than either ideology lays out -
>> for example, I consider myself a fiscal conservative
>
> I don't know what that means (i.e. not a term used here.) Does that mean
> that you are against raising taxes? In favor of decreasing taxes for the
> rich? Or simply keeping the system as it is?
I'm in favor of paying for what we "purchase" from the government. I
don't like the debt/deficit spending that the US is engaged in, and it
troubles me that the government doesn't have a balanced budget (but in
order to keep from being bankrupt, I have to).
> Anyway, this outsider (yes I am, to the point that I do think the US is
> international, a point unfortunately missed by Stephen :( ;) ) thinks
> that the current US government has directly and indirectly borrowed so
> much money from other countries that one day they'll have to pay back
> one way or another. Even McCain will have to raise taxes if he doesn't
> want to continue Bush's irresponsible politics. He knows that, and I am
> frankly amazed that large parts of the US electorate let him get away
> with attacking Obama because he is a 'socialist' and will therefor
> surely increase taxes. But I am just an outsider.
I think either candidate would ultimately look to cut spending and raise
taxes in some way. Who they raise taxes on and what they cut spending on
is the difference between the two, really.
I think that Obama will probably raise taxes on the "rich" (and where
that cutoff is will ultimately depend on a cost/benefit analysis that
he'll have to do once he's got *all* the numbers, which I don't think
either of the candidates really have - just a gut instinct on my part),
and i think he'll probably try to keep taxes down for those who aren't
"rich".
But even if my taxes do go up (and I'm well below the $250,000/$200,000
mark), I think it is important to pay for what we do, which means paying
the troops and giving them health care. That's a damned dangerous job
they do, and while I'm certainly not for the war in Iraq, those who have
chosen to serve have my respect and I would absolutely show my support
for them by paying their salaries and making sure their families don't
have to give up their homes because they're deployed in a dangerous part
of the world.
There are too many people over here who think that "support the troops"
means "support fighting in Iraq", but who don't think that paying a
little more in taxes in order to actually pay them is important.
I'll get off my soapbox before I go longer. :-)
>> but not a social conservative.
>
> Which means you wouldn't mind if neighbours moved? ;)
LOL - given that we've got a lousy garage band next door, no. ;-)
But what I mean by that was actually well summed up on Real Time with
Bill Maher by one of the panelists this week, something to the effect of
"fix yourself and help others. Not the other way around; you don't go
around trying to fix everybody else."
Jim
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On Sun, 02 Nov 2008 13:38:13 -0800, Darren New wrote:
> Also be aware that, GWB notwithstanding, the President doesn't make the
> laws in the USA.
Executive orders have the force of law, though, and line-item veto is a
powerful tool that a president has to modify a law that's been approved
by congress through a vote.
Jim
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Ben Chambers wrote:
> (1) OK, I've only taken one semester of economics, but it was enough to
> convince me that Keynes was right about the Great Depression. The
> economy got to a point where 1/3 of the population was unemployed, and
> on its own it would have probably stayed that way for decades.
Funny how the Great Depression started just one decade after the
government took over control of the money and the banks, replacing all
the actual valuable money with IOUs from corporations, eh?
Show me someplace having a Great Depression that *isn't* using fiat
currency, and I'll believe you more.
> (2) It varies, but most economists call full production a 5%
> unemployment rate (or thereabouts).
I think it varies depending on the type of economy. In a rural economy,
I think you tend to get pretty much full employment whether you want it
or not. :-)
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> Executive orders have the force of law, though,
Only because nobody can really stop him. :-) Certainly executive orders
aren't going to change the tax rates.
> and line-item veto is a powerful tool that a president has to modify a law
Did that actually pass? I thought Congress fought tooth and nail to
prevent line-item vetos.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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On Mon, 03 Nov 2008 08:03:04 -0800, Darren New wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Executive orders have the force of law, though,
>
> Only because nobody can really stop him. :-) Certainly executive orders
> aren't going to change the tax rates.
It would be interesting to see someone try that just to see what happens.
>> and line-item veto is a powerful tool that a president has to modify a
>> law
>
> Did that actually pass? I thought Congress fought tooth and nail to
> prevent line-item vetos.
Sorry, I was thinking about "signing statements", which Bush has used
over the last 8 years.
Jim
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> Sorry, I was thinking about "signing statements", which Bush has used
> over the last 8 years.
Yeah. My understanding is that those aren't really law, but just
instructions to the executive branches which enforce the law.
In other words, it's like the police chief saying "We know it's legal to
have a peaceful protest, but I want you to go out and arrest protesters
anyway." He's not making laws. He's just enforcing his own will.
Not unlike the courts, except that's their *job*.
At least as I understand it.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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On Mon, 03 Nov 2008 09:46:01 -0800, Darren New wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Sorry, I was thinking about "signing statements", which Bush has used
>> over the last 8 years.
>
> Yeah. My understanding is that those aren't really law, but just
> instructions to the executive branches which enforce the law.
>
> In other words, it's like the police chief saying "We know it's legal to
> have a peaceful protest, but I want you to go out and arrest protesters
> anyway." He's not making laws. He's just enforcing his own will.
>
> Not unlike the courts, except that's their *job*.
>
> At least as I understand it.
That could be - I've not read a lot about it, maybe time to do some more
reading. :-)
Jim
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Ben Chambers wrote:
> Maybe if the parties made more sense, I'd be able to pick one and stick to
> it. The way things are, though, I usually just pick the candidate that's
> going to do the least amount of damage.
That's what is apparently the general thing in the US now. People are voting
the candidate they hate the least...
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Darren New wrote:
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> against things like fraud, theft, violence, etc., wouldn't have done
>> anything to **stop** the current financial crisis, because nothing the
>> companies that caused it did falls into **any** of those categories.
>
> Except to the extent they are regulated banks and the government already
> took over banking and money, yeah. I mean, given that you let the
> government control printing of the money, confiscating gold, and
> eliminating risk for banks, no, there's nothing they did that fall into
> those categories. One of the things Ron Paul (as I understand it)
> advocates is getting the government out of the business of trying to
> regulate the economy in the first place.
>
Oh, yes, things where so much better back in colonial times, when every
state, or even county, and sometimes cities, printed their own money,
and you never knew if the next place you landed in would accept it..
Sorry, but no. For a system to function you need a stable basis for the
system not 50 different interpretations of what that "basis" should be.
At one time, that was a gold standard, and some countries still, sort
of, operate off it. But there just isn't enough fracking gold in the
world to support, never mind back, the number of transactions that
actually take place in the modern world. Moving away from that as a
standard, to currency itself being the standard, **helped** growth. You
know what has hurt growth in the US? Two things:
1) exceptionalism. The idiot belief that America is the best at
everything, and always will be, which has left companies like Ford and
the rest *fighting* the Asian automakers to this day, most recently by
selling shit pickups and Hummers, and other gas guzzling scrap piles,
when we should have been paying attention to the fact that the rest of
the world figured out 20 years ago that small, efficient and
streamlined, was the future.
2) anti-intellectualism. Its now insanely common to hear idiots in the
press and government babbling about the "elitists" that don't "feel"
right about anything, so must be "wrong" because they use facts, logic
and science to find solutions, instead of gut reactions, traditional
thinking, and a persistent belief that nothing can go wrong, because,
see #1.
The former blinds us to the fact that the only places that are bigger
hell holes than the US when it comes to violence, bigotry, poor medical
coverage, poor economic growth, bad education and unemployment is...
places like the Middle East, and third world countries. Its just ***not
possible*** for the average American to admit that the US is turning
into a third world country, and when they do, they blame gays,
terrorist, atheists (since you can't safely blame blacks or Jews any
more), or "liberalism" (never mind the fact that most of the world takes
one look at what we call liberals and asks, "Wait? Why are the
conservatives attacking other conservatives over not being conservative
enough?). The later is why people don't "stay" in the US as much any
more, after getting an education, why BS like 'No Child Left
less-Behind' gets cheers, while suggesting we teach critical thinking
and problem solving actually, in one case I know of, got the parent
chewed out for "Teaching their kid, instead of letting the school do it,
since all the questions they asked, and their demand for **real**
information and explanations for things was **disruptive**."
The modern US thinks we are #1, while simultaneously thinking that being
smart, knowledgeable, logical, or just prone to use a lot of big words,
makes you a pariah and untrustworthy. Even if we closed every over seas
manufacturing plant, reopened every US business that used to make stuff
here and then started hiring workers to fill the positions, we would
have to ship people in from half the rest of the world to "find" enough
people that know the difference between silicon gel and silicon chips,
never mind had a damn clue what the hell the difference made.
And the companies know this, which is one reason why, recently, as of
like last year, the major car manufactures in the US flat out stated,
"We are moving much of our operations to Canada, because in recent years
we simply can't find enough people in the US that are knowledgeable
enough when hired to do the job, and those we have hired tend, for the
most part, to be **untrainable**."
When the business world has no resources other than the same idiots that
take out 16 credit cards, then try to use them to pay off each other, to
hire in the first place, it hardly matters what the companies *or* the
government does, the result is going to have more in common with the
movie Idiocracy, than with Libertarianism.
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
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3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Oh, yes, things where so much better back in colonial times, when every
> state, or even county, and sometimes cities, printed their own money,
> and you never knew if the next place you landed in would accept it..
Um, no. Every bank printed its own money, and gold worked everywhere.
Why do you think there were gold rushes?
Now we have only one bank printing money, and the only reason it's
accepted everywhere is because we have lots of gund. See Iceland for a
counterexample. Why again is this good?
> At one time, that was a gold standard, and some countries still, sort
> of, operate off it.
You know, it worked between countries a thousand years ago. The only
reason to get *off* of a gold standard is if you *want* to counterfeit
money. It's perfectly possible to devalue money without leaving a
hard-metal standard - how many pounds of sterling silver can you buy
with a British Pound Sterling today?
> But there just isn't enough fracking gold in the
> world to support, never mind back, the number of transactions that
> actually take place in the modern world.
Bull. You don't need the actual gold. You just need your money to be
worth something universal and impossible to counterfeit. What does it
matter if an ounce of gold is worth $100,000?
I'm not suggesting that carrying around gold is a good way to do
business. I'm merely pointing out that the Great Depression happened a
decade or more after people stopped backing money with gold.
> Moving away from that as a
> standard, to currency itself being the standard, **helped** growth.
Perhaps. Until people stop believing in money. Then you get the Great
Depression.
> when we should have been paying attention to the fact that the rest of
> the world figured out 20 years ago that small, efficient and
> streamlined, was the future.
Except the Japanese like to buy big gas-guzzling Ford pickup trucks too.
:-) Plus, CAFE helped there a whole bunch.
> 2) anti-intellectualism.
Yep.
> The modern US thinks we are #1, while simultaneously thinking that being
> smart, knowledgeable, logical, or just prone to use a lot of big words,
> makes you a pariah and untrustworthy.
In many ways, yes. Altho I'm not sure what this has to do with monetary
policy. :-)
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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On Mon, 03 Nov 2008 23:55:37 -0200, Nicolas Alvarez wrote:
> That's what is apparently the general thing in the US now. People are
> voting the candidate they hate the least...
That's been going on here for some time. This year, I finally get to
vote *for* someone rather than *against* someone.
Jim
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Darren New wrote:
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> Oh, yes, things where so much better back in colonial times, when
>> every state, or even county, and sometimes cities, printed their own
>> money, and you never knew if the next place you landed in would accept
>> it..
>
> Um, no. Every bank printed its own money, and gold worked everywhere.
> Why do you think there were gold rushes?
>
> Now we have only one bank printing money, and the only reason it's
> accepted everywhere is because we have lots of gund. See Iceland for a
> counterexample. Why again is this good?
>
Because, you don't have to worry about people "refusing" money at their
banks, because they don't trust you have the gold, don't like your hair
cut, or think your too <insert race/religion here>. With one single
currency you don't get that BS. And... Just to be clear, if all this
regulation, and taxation, and money based on pure money stuff is so bad,
why is it **only** the US, and countries filled with corrupt dictators,
which are currently screwed in health care, cost of living,
unemployment, etc.? See, its the inconsistency between "these things are
bad", but, "The use does them less than anyone else, but has had
**three** economic depressions, counting this one.", that just...
doesn't jibe.
>> But there just isn't enough fracking gold in the world to support,
>> never mind back, the number of transactions that actually take place
>> in the modern world.
>
> Bull. You don't need the actual gold. You just need your money to be
> worth something universal and impossible to counterfeit. What does it
> matter if an ounce of gold is worth $100,000?
>
How the hell is not having anything you "can" exchange for it, just
imaginary stuff, which you could "in theory" trade for it, then what the
heck is the difference from the current form again?
>> Moving away from that as a standard, to currency itself being the
>> standard, **helped** growth.
>
> Perhaps. Until people stop believing in money. Then you get the Great
> Depression.
>
And, if people stop believing in gold, same thing. Money is *not* gold,
it has been, and always was, a bit of paper that said, "in theory, this
will buy X". It doesn't matter if that is gold or rock, as long as
someone things there is some value to rocks. If they either a) decide
they don't need your rocks, b) decide you don't have the gold to back
your "claims" of how much their money is worth, or c) something else is
worth more to them. Removing such a stupid standard means the value is
based on what it really was in the first place, trust that you can spend
it, and get something back, including, if you have enough, gold bars.
>> when we should have been paying attention to the fact that the rest of
>> the world figured out 20 years ago that small, efficient and
>> streamlined, was the future.
>
> Except the Japanese like to buy big gas-guzzling Ford pickup trucks too.
> :-) Plus, CAFE helped there a whole bunch.
>
Oh, yeah.. All what 1,000 of them that drive cars? lol Seriously, 1)
declining population, 2) non-city lands going fallow, and 3) no where
near enough places "to" drive for the high price of gas to matter at
all. Its not like, say, a few million idiots that think they need to
cram 500,000 cars on 1,000 roads every day, in 4-5 cities, in various
corners of a damn continent. lol
>> 2) anti-intellectualism.
>
> Yep.
>
>> The modern US thinks we are #1, while simultaneously thinking that
>> being smart, knowledgeable, logical, or just prone to use a lot of big
>> words, makes you a pariah and untrustworthy.
>
> In many ways, yes. Altho I'm not sure what this has to do with monetary
> policy. :-)
>
A lot really. Dumb and gullible people are happy to buy into anything
that "promises" them something for nothing, and the entire "lending"
economy has been based "purely" on that thinking. Some... some are so
stupid they join so called "prosperity ministries", which preach buy,
buy, buy, and buy more, since a) Jesus will reward the faithful
(apparently the people holding the collection box) with riches, and b)
even if he doesn't, the whole world will end, and you won't need to
worry about losing the $300,000 home you bought on 4 morgages, with 3
credit cards, and all the crap they fill the inside with.
You and me.. we would look at a stereo system and a TV, and decide to
take the TV, on sale, which was "good enough". They... would buy both,
the best ones their credit could get, and then go to church on Sunday to
be told, "Praise the Lord, you will be rewarded for buying it!" I don't
want to even think how many of the morons involved with this crash where
both either CEO or consumers **and** members of that crazy shit.
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
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3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Because, you don't have to worry about people "refusing" money at their
> banks, because they don't trust you have the gold, don't like your hair
> cut, or think your too <insert race/religion here>.
Of course you do. See, for example, Iceland.
> With one single currency you don't get that BS.
That's why it's called the gold standard.
> And... Just to be clear, if all this
> regulation, and taxation, and money based on pure money stuff is so bad,
> why is it **only** the US, and countries filled with corrupt dictators,
> which are currently screwed in health care, cost of living,
> unemployment, etc.?
See Iceland for example.
> How the hell is not having anything you "can" exchange for it, just
> imaginary stuff, which you could "in theory" trade for it, then what the
> heck is the difference from the current form again?
I'm saying you don't actually have to lug the gold around. You just have
to have the money backed by gold you could actually get to if youwant.
> And, if people stop believing in gold, same thing.
Except that people have been believing in gold for like 5000 years or
so. Certainly since before the roman empire.
> Money is *not* gold,
> it has been, and always was, a bit of paper that said, "in theory, this
> will buy X". It doesn't matter if that is gold or rock, as long as
> someone things there is some value to rocks.
Right. That's fine. And that works. And when they stop believing, you're
f'ed. See Iceland, for example. Or Zimbabwe.
> Removing such a stupid standard means the value is
> based on what it really was in the first place, trust that you can spend
> it, and get something back, including, if you have enough, gold bars.
No. Removing the standard means it's based on trust that someone who
refuses to take your IOU will be shot. There has never been a
successful fiat currency that wasn't based on "you can pay your taxes
with it!"
> A lot really. Dumb and gullible people are happy to buy into anything
> that "promises" them something for nothing,
Including the government, printing money. :-)
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Because, you don't have to worry about people "refusing" money at their
> banks, because they don't trust you have the gold, don't like your hair
> cut, or think your too <insert race/religion here>.
Or, alternately, just what do you think a "run on the bank" actually
*is*, even *with* one currency?
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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Darren New wrote:
>> Removing such a stupid standard means the value is based on what it
>> really was in the first place, trust that you can spend it, and get
>> something back, including, if you have enough, gold bars.
>
> No. Removing the standard means it's based on trust that someone who
> refuses to take your IOU will be shot. There has never been a
> successful fiat currency that wasn't based on "you can pay your taxes
> with it!"
>
Again, I am not sure what your point is. Someone could use the "gold
standard", then ship all the gold to some other country, where it
basically ceases to exist, and until someone demanded to "see" the gold,
no one would have a clue anything had changed. Such a standard, as I
have tried to point out, is meaningless on its face, since you are still
trusting someone to "honestly" have what they claim is being used to
back it, no matter if its "You can pay your taxes with this slip of
paper.", or, "Someplace there are gold bars that this is valued to some
percentage of. Honest! Cross my heart!" The very idea that they *is* a
real difference between these in terms of how the money itself gets
used, and what ever trust is placed in it, is, I am sorry, but...
delusional.
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
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3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> and until someone demanded to "see" the gold,
> no one would have a clue anything had changed.
Right. And with some 300 million people in the country, using gold to
transfer value between banks, shipping too much of the gold elsewhere
leads to you getting caught.
(This, basically, is exactly what FDR did when they set up the federal
reserve.)
> Such a standard, as I
> have tried to point out, is meaningless on its face, since you are still
> trusting someone to "honestly" have what they claim is being used to
> back it,
Yes. Except if it's the government doing it, you don't have to trust
them to honestly have what they claim. They can just say "No, we decided
to give away all your gold. Tough crap."
> The very idea that they *is* a
> real difference between these in terms of how the money itself gets
> used, and what ever trust is placed in it, is, I am sorry, but...
> delusional.
So you're happy taking corporate stocks as payment for your salary
instead of cash? The company you work for will pay you in corporate
stocks, but they won't buy them back from you for actual cash. Instead,
they just say "Trust us, the value is actually there." That works for you?
Cause it's the same thing.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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Darren New wrote:
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> and until someone demanded to "see" the gold, no one would have a clue
>> anything had changed.
>
> Right. And with some 300 million people in the country, using gold to
> transfer value between banks, shipping too much of the gold elsewhere
> leads to you getting caught.
>
Actually... not likely. Shipping the stuff would be too risky, which is
another reason not even the banks probably *want* to have to do it.
Moving data is a lot less costly, harder to steal, and, well, you get
the point. Even back when there "was" a gold standard, we **still**
opted to keep it all safely locked in a central location, and just trade
slips of paper around, which specified who "owned" it.
> (This, basically, is exactly what FDR did when they set up the federal
> reserve.)
>
Yep. And, again, if you never move it, all you have is the "keepers"
promise that it still exists, and a bit of paper claiming you can come
and get it, if you need to.
>> Such a standard, as I have tried to point out, is meaningless on its
>> face, since you are still trusting someone to "honestly" have what
>> they claim is being used to back it,
>
> Yes. Except if it's the government doing it, you don't have to trust
> them to honestly have what they claim. They can just say "No, we decided
> to give away all your gold. Tough crap."
>
There is a quote, which dealt with dictatorships vs democracies, from
the Heinlein novels, which I think I will paraphrase and mangle a bit to
illustrate the futility of this idea:
Centralized banking = The presumption that who ever holds the "central"
depositor is honest, won't cheat, and no one can steal anything from
them. Oh, sure, that's going to work...
Private vaults = The presumption that 5,000 independent places won't
ever collude to steal, personally steal, cheat, get robbed, or otherwise
"lose" the valuable thing their entire solvency is supposed to be based
on. Come again?
>> The very idea that they *is* a real difference between these in terms
>> of how the money itself gets used, and what ever trust is placed in
>> it, is, I am sorry, but... delusional.
>
> So you're happy taking corporate stocks as payment for your salary
> instead of cash? The company you work for will pay you in corporate
> stocks, but they won't buy them back from you for actual cash. Instead,
> they just say "Trust us, the value is actually there." That works for you?
>
> Cause it's the same thing.
>
Umm. Cash can't "lose" value, but it also can't **gain** any either.
Yes, if things go bad, and you had $500 to start with, you might only
have $100, but if things go well, you might start with $500 and end up
with $5,000. If you opt for cash, you **only** get $500, and you might
as well just eat the money, because its going to be worth shit by the
time you actually need to use it to buy food. And, just to be clear,
even if I had $500 and it was still "worth" $500 when I retired, it
might be worth nothing the next day, for **precisely** the same reason
the stock would be, because the "backing" for it, no matter what that
"is", fell in a hole.
Or, to put it another way, it doesn't matter whether the "money" I have
says Franklin, or Starbuck's, if people don't want to take it, or value
it as what it says on the damn paper, both are ***just as worthless***.
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Actually... not likely. Shipping the stuff would be too risky,
Um, have you looked at the logo for Wells Fargo lately?
> which is
> another reason not even the banks probably *want* to have to do it.
Of course not. And I don't want to have to pay my taxes, either.
> Moving data is a lot less costly, harder to steal,
Easier to steal.
> Even back when there "was" a gold standard, we **still**
> opted to keep it all safely locked in a central location, and just trade
> slips of paper around, which specified who "owned" it.
No, that's the point. It wasn't in a central location. It was in banks,
which were all indepdenent.
>> (This, basically, is exactly what FDR did when they set up the federal
>> reserve.)
>>
> Yep. And, again, if you never move it, all you have is the "keepers"
> promise that it still exists, and a bit of paper claiming you can come
> and get it, if you need to.
Except that each individual bank was independent. So if you wanted to
change banks, they *had* to give you the gold.
> Private vaults = The presumption that 5,000 independent places won't
> ever collude to steal, personally steal, cheat, get robbed, or otherwise
> "lose" the valuable thing their entire solvency is supposed to be based
> on. Come again?
Except that puts them out of business, so they have an incentive to
avoid it, just like companies nowadays have an incentive in general to
avoid having all their assets stolen at the cost of the stockholders.
>> Cause it's the same thing.
>>
> Umm. Cash can't "lose" value,
See Iceland. Why do you keep ignoring the fact that it's happening,
right now, what you keep saying can't happen.
Plus, have you heard of "inflation"? See Zimbabwe.
> Or, to put it another way, it doesn't matter whether the "money" I have
> says Franklin, or Starbuck's, if people don't want to take it, or value
> it as what it says on the damn paper, both are ***just as worthless***.
Yep. That's just my point. Except people have been taking gold and
silver since like before the roman empire. You can dig up roman coins
and they're still worth a lot of money even if you melt them down into a
puddle.
Name me one fiat currency that has lasted over 1000 years and retained
its value, and I'll believe you when you say it works. The only reason
people value Franklins is because people will come with guns and beat
you up if you don't.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Because, you don't have to worry about people "refusing" money at their
> banks,
Have you tried to cash in a German Dutchmark lately?
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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Darren New wrote:
>>> Cause it's the same thing.
>>>
>> Umm. Cash can't "lose" value,
>
> See Iceland. Why do you keep ignoring the fact that it's happening,
> right now, what you keep saying can't happen.
>
> Plus, have you heard of "inflation"? See Zimbabwe.
>
Not the definition of "lose" I meant. What I meant was that it doesn't
rise or fall based on stock value. The key point being, while it gets
more worthless over time, in terms of general inflation, it will never
get **more** valuable **ever** (Well, unless people stop printing it at
all, and someone thinks its worth collecting, but you got a long damn
wait before that value goes "up" in that case. Some confederate money,
while "collectable" in theory, is worth less than what replaced it, even
now.).
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
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3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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Darren New wrote:
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> Because, you don't have to worry about people "refusing" money at
>> their banks,
>
> Have you tried to cash in a German Dutchmark lately?
>
Why do you persist in ignoring the general sense I mean things, and
exaggerating your own point by, well, pointing out something so
pointless. Yeah, it would be worthless to try, but... guess what! No one
that has any of those is going to be able to *get* the gold, silver, or
what ever they where valued to anyway, so its meaningless to suggest
that "backing" currency with something the banks will simply refuse to
give back to you, if they stop printing/accepting the bills, means its
somehow "more" trustworthy than something backed by just a promise of
value. In the end, if the country collapsed, and they stop accepting
your money, its not going to matter if you have 500 pounds of gold, or
500 pounds of pocket lint in the bank, or just a bit of paper saying,
"You have $500 in the account", in the end, you still got jack when the
bank stops accepting the bit of paper its on. Why don't you get this?
It doesn't matter what is "behind" the money, because if they stop
accepting the money, no matter what is behind it, ****you****, at that
point, don't have anything anyway.
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Not the definition of "lose" I meant. What I meant was that it doesn't
> rise or fall based on stock value.
It rises and falls based on the "stock value" of the country.
> The key point being, while it gets
> more worthless over time, in terms of general inflation, it will never
> get **more** valuable **ever**
Of course it will. Why do you think there are commodity markets in
currencies? Do you think the value of Canadian money hasn't gone up in
America, for example? Did you ever put off a holiday trip to Europe
because the Euro was so much more expensive than the Dollar nowadays?
Don't you think the Chinese Yuan buys more today than it did 40 years ago?
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>>> Because, you don't have to worry about people "refusing" money at
>>> their banks,
>>
>> Have you tried to cash in a German Dutchmark lately?
>>
> Why do you persist in ignoring the general sense I mean things,
Because you're not being clear. I'm trying to understand the way in
which you intend your statements to be interpreted, and I'm being
hindered by the fact that every statement you make is prima facia false.
> No one
> that has any of those is going to be able to *get* the gold, silver, or
> what ever they where valued to anyway,
That's exactly my point, tho. They *weren't* valued to any gold. They
were valued to the german government insisting that germans accept it.
If they *were* valued to gold, you could get the gold back.
> so its meaningless to suggest
> that "backing" currency with something the banks will simply refuse to
> give back to you,
It's not backed by gold if the banks won't give you the gold back.
That's pretty much the definition.
> you still got jack when the
> bank stops accepting the bit of paper its on. Why don't you get this?
You're again assuming that if money is backed by gold, there's only one
paper currency and only one bank. Sure. But that's not how it works when
money is actually gold.
If someone won't take your bank's note, you go to the bank, get gold,
and give them the gold. If the bank doesn't have the gold, then you
arrest whoever stole it.
> It doesn't matter what is "behind" the money, because if they stop
> accepting the money, no matter what is behind it, ****you****, at that
> point, don't have anything anyway.
You diversify. You put your gold in 20 different banks, and then when
the first one or two refuses to give it back, you take out your gold
from the rest. Just like you diversify stocks.
The paper from the bank is *exactly* the stock of the bank. (Well, not
exactly, of course, but close enough.) When the country has only one
bank, and the government controls it, and the government is willing to
use force to make you accept promises from the bank, then you're pretty
screwed when the government bank stops honoring their promises.
If you have a gold standard, you can take your gold to a different bank.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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Darren New wrote:
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> The key point being, while it gets more worthless over time, in terms
>> of general inflation, it will never get **more** valuable **ever**
>
> Of course it will. Why do you think there are commodity markets in
> currencies? Do you think the value of Canadian money hasn't gone up in
> America, for example? Did you ever put off a holiday trip to Europe
> because the Euro was so much more expensive than the Dollar nowadays?
> Don't you think the Chinese Yuan buys more today than it did 40 years ago?
>
Given that I don't "generally" go running to some foreign country to
exchange my money to make it worth more, like a stock certificate, and
most other people don't either, its not something I or most people would
count as "gaining" or "losing" value.
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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Darren New wrote:
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> Darren New wrote:
>>> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>>>> Because, you don't have to worry about people "refusing" money at
>>>> their banks,
>>>
>>> Have you tried to cash in a German Dutchmark lately?
>>>
>> Why do you persist in ignoring the general sense I mean things,
>
> Because you're not being clear. I'm trying to understand the way in
> which you intend your statements to be interpreted, and I'm being
> hindered by the fact that every statement you make is prima facia false.
>
>> No one that has any of those is going to be able to *get* the gold,
>> silver, or what ever they where valued to anyway,
>
> That's exactly my point, tho. They *weren't* valued to any gold. They
> were valued to the german government insisting that germans accept it.
>
> If they *were* valued to gold, you could get the gold back.
>
>> so its meaningless to suggest that "backing" currency with something
>> the banks will simply refuse to give back to you,
>
> It's not backed by gold if the banks won't give you the gold back.
> That's pretty much the definition.
>
>> you still got jack when the bank stops accepting the bit of paper its
>> on. Why don't you get this?
>
> You're again assuming that if money is backed by gold, there's only one
> paper currency and only one bank. Sure. But that's not how it works when
> money is actually gold.
>
> If someone won't take your bank's note, you go to the bank, get gold,
> and give them the gold. If the bank doesn't have the gold, then you
> arrest whoever stole it.
>
>> It doesn't matter what is "behind" the money, because if they stop
>> accepting the money, no matter what is behind it, ****you****, at that
>> point, don't have anything anyway.
>
> You diversify. You put your gold in 20 different banks, and then when
> the first one or two refuses to give it back, you take out your gold
> from the rest. Just like you diversify stocks.
>
> The paper from the bank is *exactly* the stock of the bank. (Well, not
> exactly, of course, but close enough.) When the country has only one
> bank, and the government controls it, and the government is willing to
> use force to make you accept promises from the bank, then you're pretty
> screwed when the government bank stops honoring their promises.
>
> If you have a gold standard, you can take your gold to a different bank.
>
Umm. All of which kind of misses the main point, and I am getting tired
of this anyway, so this is my last post on the subject, but.. even under
a gold standard ***most people*** never traded the cold, just the
certificates, such that they basically just ended up being like money we
have now anyway.
Oh, and this is also typical gibberish you get from the, "why not let
doctors not treat people if they don't like giving out the treatment?",
"Why not let pharmacists not give out X, Y or Z, if they object to it?",
etc. It **presumes** something that is "not" in any way shape or form
valid, which is that "everyone" will either a) want to, b) bother to, or
c) be able to, diversify to 20 different banks to "guard" a deposit,
especially when the first thing they are going to ask is, "Why can't
someone, like the government, promise me that I won't lose my money, if
all 20 of them, by some odd coincidence, go broke?" Or, in other words,
it becomes a "who watches the watchmen" situation, where, how ever bad
it may be to trust the government, it "does" have the interest in
keeping things stable, since the way the banks go, so does the
government, and anything *it* wants to accomplish. Failing to guard the
banks is the same as cutting their own throats. While, individual
banks.. well, sorry, but the people screwed if one bank decided to rob
itself, flee the country and leave people without any means to recover
their "gold", or what ever, would be the employees, and the people that
deposited the money there. While it would be nice to imagine catching
the person, in reality, its less than certain they wouldn't get away
free and clear, with **no one** higher up to either blame, or recover
loses from.
Using 20 banks, which make no guarantees that they won't lose every dime
you have with them, is **just like** playing the stocks, far more so
than a single currency, since at least if everyone, including the people
holding the printers, all use the same currency, there is a natural
incentive for **all of them** to make sure it remains solvent, they will
loose as much, and likely **far more** than you will.
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
Post a reply to this message
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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Given that I don't "generally" go running to some foreign country
But *countries* do. I generally don't go run to some foreign country to
make my employment worth more or less, but companies "outsource" (or
"sweatshop") for exactly that reason all the time. That you don't
participate doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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