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Since there are many programming experts here I'd like to please give me
you r opinion about this programming Language since I'm very much a noob
programmer and would like to pursue a more in depth knowledge about a
programming Language since I would eventually I'm gonna need to do my
own small tools and I find C/++ a powerful but extremely bizarre
programming environment, that is why I like Delphi. I know that skillful
programmers see Delphi like a limited language but I wont be needing
make a Windows XP like system so, what I need is something simple with
some fixed structures (in C++ you can make a several lines program
inside a FOR loop and some other not-for-program-body-structures,
flexible? yeah, in deed, like: TOO MUCH = bizarre) and powerful enough
to go multi-threaded(multicore capable) and runable in Windows, I
haven't tried CLipper or other popular programming languages so if you
could briefly tip me about what you felt when programming on other
languages besides C/++ or Delphi and the reach of their capabilities
would be of great help or a link, if you have it at hand, on
reviews/forums about programming languages comparisons.
Maybe this is something I should be looking on dogpile/cuil by myself,
but right now I'm beaten, been a PC tech maybe is a low-knowledge job
but takes the juice out of you when you do it with 3 PC/Notebook at the
same time and you sleep 4 hours a day the whole week.
Thx in advance for any good will you would be pouring here.
Cheers.
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Delphi is (was) a pretty decent language and IDE, ahead of its time in its
day. Alas, Borland did everything possible to screw it, including losing key
developers, releasing several buggy/unusable versions in a row, a Linux
fiasco, ignoring bug reports, remaining completely oblivious to essential
features like Unicode, 64 bits, generics... etc, bloating IDE and slowing it
down to a crawl with Java and NET crap, and even breaking parts that were
working at one time, like the help system. It remains to be seen if
Embarcadero will support CodeGear enough to put all the broken pieces
togerther and catch up to the 21st century (D2009 is out with unicode), but
I'm not holding my breath.
If you mean object Pascal, then FPC/Lazarus is trying to be what Delphi
couldn't, but it's a long way off.
Still, both Delphi and FPC are usable. If you are a single developer,
hobbyist, use whatever gets the job done. But as far as job prospects go,
I'd say even Haskell has a better future.
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somebody wrote:
> Still, both Delphi and FPC are usable. If you are a single developer,
> hobbyist, use whatever gets the job done. But as far as job prospects go,
> I'd say even Haskell has a better future.
...I don't even know whether to be flattered or insulted. o_O
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> somebody wrote:
>
>> Still, both Delphi and FPC are usable. If you are a single developer,
>> hobbyist, use whatever gets the job done. But as far as job prospects go,
>> I'd say even Haskell has a better future.
>
> ....I don't even know whether to be flattered or insulted. o_O
>
hehe, so u think Haskell is a good programming language?
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any suggestions besides Haskell? (I'm checking its website right now).
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Saul Luizaga wrote:
> hehe, so u think Haskell is a good programming language?
Depends on what you want to program.
If you want to write device drivers... uh... you should probably use C
or assembly. (Haskell can do it, but it's not the best choice.)
If you want to write a bleeding-edge 3D computer game, you should
probably use C++. (That's where all the libraries are.)
If you want to write a database application, SQL is going to be easier. ;-)
If you want to write complex mathematical algorithms, or just something
that involves lots of complex processing, Haskell is probably a good fit.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Saul Luizaga wrote:
> Haskell? (I'm checking its website right now).
Another potential convert lost... ._.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] dev null> wrote:
> If you want to write complex mathematical algorithms, or just something
> that involves lots of complex processing, Haskell is probably a good fit.
One of the most demanding programming tasks in mathematical software is
matrix handling. We are talking about *huge* matrices and their operations
(such as multiplication or inverting) which the math program should handle
as efficiently as possible (both memorywise and speedwise). Quite many
mathematical tasks and other algorithms can be reduced to handling
enormous matrices and their operations.
If I'm not mistaken, a more or less standard benchmark for math software
is to measure how fast it can multiply and invert humongous matrices.
How well does Haskell fit this? Can it be used to handle enormous
matrices efficiently and perform operations to them as fast as possible?
--
- Warp
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Saul Luizaga <sau### [at] netscapenet> wrote:
> any suggestions besides Haskell? (I'm checking its website right now).
Well, if you want to learn what the industry is using, Java and C# are
probably sure bets.
--
- Warp
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>> If you want to write complex mathematical algorithms, or just something
>> that involves lots of complex processing, Haskell is probably a good fit.
>
> One of the most demanding programming tasks in mathematical software is
> matrix handling.
That wasn't precisely what I meant by "complex processing". (I was
thinking about tasks like parsing text files, chasing dependencies,
implementing complex wire protocols, reading binary formats, etc.)
But sure, your statement seems valid to me.
> We are talking about *huge* matrices and their operations
> (such as multiplication or inverting) which the math program should handle
> as efficiently as possible (both memorywise and speedwise). Quite many
> mathematical tasks and other algorithms can be reduced to handling
> enormous matrices and their operations.
> If I'm not mistaken, a more or less standard benchmark for math software
> is to measure how fast it can multiply and invert humongous matrices.
>
> How well does Haskell fit this? Can it be used to handle enormous
> matrices efficiently and perform operations to them as fast as possible?
Depends how you implement it.
There is a standard package called hmatrix that gives you a
Haskell-style interface to the external LAPACK and GSL libraries. (By
"Haskell-style", I mean the interface works in the customary style of
Haskell, so it's more than just a thin veneer over the underlying C or
whatever it is, and it plays nice with the rest of the language.)
Presumably the speed of this is roughly the speed of the underlying
libraries.
Haskell will soon be getting the so-called "Data Parallel Arrays"
extension, that provides a trivial syntax for processing arrays in
parallel. (Not in-place though.)
Haskell already has the ability to construct C-like arrays of basic
types which are mutable in-place - although I doubt anything you or I
could code by hand is going to compare to something like LAPACK which
must have been optimised by half the PhDs on Earth by now.
If extreme numerical performance is your goal, 3rd party libraries are
probably your best bet. (Presumably this goes for any programming
language - other people are way smarter!) But it could be interesting to
see how fast native Haskell is or isn't.
I had a look at the Great Language Shootout. The most math-heavy
benchmark I could see is spectural-norm, which appears to use lots of
matrix/vector multiplication. Fortran is fastest, C++ is 2.8% slower,
and Haskell is 7.0% slower. Haskell also uses 64 KB more than C++ (=1%
more).
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Saul Luizaga wrote:
> any suggestions besides Haskell? (I'm checking its website right now).
C#
I can recommend it from both experience and from its pedigree.
You see there is a very clever Dannish chap called Anders Hejlsberg.
Anders wrote the product that became Turbo Pascal. Then he designed
Delphi. Then he left Borland, joined Microsoft and was the lead
architect/designer of C# and a fair bit of '.Net'.
I think you will find that C# is great in itself and particularly if you
like Delphi ideas but not the commercial mess it has become.
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Warp wrote:
> Saul Luizaga <sau### [at] netscapenet> wrote:
>> any suggestions besides Haskell? (I'm checking its website right now).
>
> Well, if you want to learn what the industry is using, Java and C# are
> probably sure bets.
Yeah, C, C++, C#, Java, VisualBasic, ASP.NET, any of those... Those are
the ones I tend to see job adverts for, in general.
Some would claim that VisualBasic is the language that took over the
niche that Delphi used to fill.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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"Saul Luizaga" <sau### [at] netscapenet> wrote in message
news:48d61542$1@news.povray.org...
> any suggestions besides Haskell? (I'm checking its website right now).
OK, that was tongue in cheek. As others have mentioned, C++, Java, and C#
(+ASP.NET) cover most bases. If you like Delphi, C# won't disappoint, as
it's proof that a curly language can be a sane language.
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Saul Luizaga wrote:
> any suggestions besides Haskell? (I'm checking its website right now).
Java's been mentioned (you know, for getting a job).
I'd suggest also learning a scripting language. Python is my addiction.
--
The meek shall inherit the dearth.
/\ /\ /\ /
/ \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z
>>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
anl
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"Orchid XP v8" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:48d653cf@news.povray.org...
> Warp wrote:
>> Saul Luizaga <sau### [at] netscapenet> wrote:
>>> any suggestions besides Haskell? (I'm checking its website right now).
>>
>> Well, if you want to learn what the industry is using, Java and C# are
>> probably sure bets.
>
> Yeah, C, C++, C#, Java, VisualBasic, ASP.NET, any of those... Those are
> the ones I tend to see job adverts for, in general.
ASP.Net's not a language. It's a web development 'framework'. ASP.net pages
are written in C# or VB.Net (or any other .net language).
To add to that, php (often with MySQL) for web development. I'm starting to
see a couple ads for Ruby, but not very many.
Saul, are you looking to learn a langage for hobby work or professionally?
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Gail schrieb:
>
> "Orchid XP v8" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
>>
>> Yeah, C, C++, C#, Java, VisualBasic, ASP.NET, any of those... Those
>> are the ones I tend to see job adverts for, in general.
>
> ASP.Net's not a language. It's a web development 'framework'. ASP.net
> pages are written in C# or VB.Net (or any other .net language).
> To add to that, php (often with MySQL) for web development. I'm
> starting to see a couple ads for Ruby, but not very many.
Ruby as in Ruby, the language, or Ruby as in Ruby on Rails (which is a
web development framework in which the pages are [obviously] written in
Ruby)? :)
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Mueen Nawaz <m.n### [at] ieeeorg> wrote:
> I'd suggest also learning a scripting language. Python is my addiction.
I believe the industry is more interested in PHP than in Python. At least
on the web development side of the industry.
--
- Warp
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"Manuel Kasten" <kas### [at] gmxde> wrote in message
news:48d68d58$1@news.povray.org...
>
>
> Gail schrieb:
>>
>> "Orchid XP v8" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
>>>
>>> Yeah, C, C++, C#, Java, VisualBasic, ASP.NET, any of those... Those are
>>> the ones I tend to see job adverts for, in general.
>>
>> ASP.Net's not a language. It's a web development 'framework'. ASP.net
>> pages are written in C# or VB.Net (or any other .net language).
>> To add to that, php (often with MySQL) for web development. I'm starting
>> to see a couple ads for Ruby, but not very many.
>
> Ruby as in Ruby, the language, or Ruby as in Ruby on Rails (which is a web
> development framework in which the pages are [obviously] written in Ruby)?
> :)
Well, technically, Rails isn't a language, much like ASP.Net isn't a
language and I was talking about languages that I see in job ads.
To answer the question, I don't recall if the ads were for Rails or plain
Ruby. It's more that the language requested caught my eye as I deleted the
job ad from my mail box.
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Gail wrote:
> To answer the question, I don't recall if the ads were for Rails or
> plain Ruby. It's more that the language requested caught my eye as I
> deleted the job ad from my mail box.
You get job ads like that *in your mailbox*?! o_O Next time you get one,
let m-- oh, wait...
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 19:54:48 +0100, Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>You get job ads like that *in your mailbox*?! o_O
Jobserve will do that for you.
--
Regards
Stephen
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>> You get job ads like that *in your mailbox*?! o_O
>
> Jobserve will do that for you.
Really? All it seems to do for me is periodically send me an email
saying "hey, uh, we don't have any jobs for you right now, but why don't
you come check out our TOTALLY COOL WEBSITE?!"
Which isn't very useful...
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 21:09:08 +0100, Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>>> You get job ads like that *in your mailbox*?! o_O
>>
>> Jobserve will do that for you.
>
>Really? All it seems to do for me is periodically send me an email
>saying "hey, uh, we don't have any jobs for you right now, but why don't
>you come check out our TOTALLY COOL WEBSITE?!"
I suppose that it depends on your search criteria. That and setting up your
profile to send you alerts.
>Which isn't very useful...
No not really :(
--
Regards
Stephen
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"Orchid XP v8" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:48d69870$1@news.povray.org...
> Gail wrote:
>
>> To answer the question, I don't recall if the ads were for Rails or plain
>> Ruby. It's more that the language requested caught my eye as I deleted
>> the job ad from my mail box.
>
> You get job ads like that *in your mailbox*?! o_O Next time you get one,
> let m-- oh, wait...
Sure, and I frankly wish they'd stop sending them.
My CV is 99% SQL Server. Why do I get job adverts ranging from C++
programmer through php and Ruby and a bunch of other languages I've never
coded in, right the way to project manager and HR administrator?
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Java is kinda out of my league right know, kinda too complex for a noob
programmer yet but I think I will have to learn it in time since I have
seen is the best for Internet-based apps, but every program made in Java
is slow noticeably.
As I said before I think C++ is bizarre and C#even more, I have taken a
beginner intro course to VisualBasic.NET and it sucked, damn you if you
ever dare to go outside the window where the main code is or try to
understand the headers or try to save a "program" to use it on another
computer, you really need to know what to save in order to make i work
if you're not saving the entire project this is. ASP.NET... I prefer to
be as far way from Microsoft as possible, so I wont be learning any MS
technology if I can help it, but thanks for the suggestions.
I think OrchidXP wants me to "convert" to Kaskell so I might give it a
try and go in-depth on it, since as a Electronic Engineering student I
might need to program partial derivates, integrals and other math for
the circuit analysis on any big project in my small University.
Thanks guy, you were of help :D.
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Gail wrote:
>
> "Orchid XP v8" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
> news:48d653cf@news.povray.org...
>> Warp wrote:
>>> Saul Luizaga <sau### [at] netscapenet> wrote:
>>>> any suggestions besides Haskell? (I'm checking its website right now).
>>>
>>> Well, if you want to learn what the industry is using, Java and C# are
>>> probably sure bets.
>>
>> Yeah, C, C++, C#, Java, VisualBasic, ASP.NET, any of those... Those
>> are the ones I tend to see job adverts for, in general.
>
> ASP.Net's not a language. It's a web development 'framework'. ASP.net
> pages are written in C# or VB.Net (or any other .net language).
> To add to that, php (often with MySQL) for web development. I'm
> starting to see a couple ads for Ruby, but not very many.
>
> Saul, are you looking to learn a langage for hobby work or professionally?
Well Gail, just for my University only, PIC and other integrated circuit
handling from the PC and to calculate some circuit's equations or some
other telecommunication algorithms for projects or assigments and some
statistics nothing big/professional, I would say
hobby/self-teaching/want-to-stop-being-a-NOOB-programmer kinda
motivation :).
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> You get job ads like that *in your mailbox*?! o_O
>>
>> Jobserve will do that for you.
>
> Really? All it seems to do for me is periodically send me an email
> saying "hey, uh, we don't have any jobs for you right now, but why don't
> you come check out our TOTALLY COOL WEBSITE?!"
>
> Which isn't very useful...
>
hehehehehe :D
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OK guys, I have read all your suggestions and I will be looking for all
of them in the internet and see which one suits me best right know and
in the longterm, thanks a lot for you time and your good will, you have
really guided me fast and wise about the Industry tendencies and most
common, easy and powerful languages out there, priceless help in deed, I
appreciate it and I wont forget this gesture towards me.
Best Regards, Saul.
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Gail wrote:
> Why do I get job adverts ranging from C++
> programmer through php and Ruby and a bunch of other languages I've
> never coded in, right the way to project manager and HR administrator?
The same reason you get any other spam. It doesn't cost them anything,
and you just might forward something like that on to someone else who
takes the job and gives them their commission.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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Warp wrote:
> Mueen Nawaz <m.n### [at] ieeeorg> wrote:
>> I'd suggest also learning a scripting language. Python is my addiction.
>
> I believe the industry is more interested in PHP than in Python. At least
> on the web development side of the industry.
I wasn't aware that he said he was focusing on Web development.
Otherwise, I agree.
--
Dopeler effect: The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they
come at you rapidly.
/\ /\ /\ /
/ \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z
>>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
anl
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"Saul Luizaga" <sau### [at] netscapenet> wrote in message
news:48d6d3f3$1@news.povray.org...
> Well Gail, just for my University only, PIC and other integrated circuit
> handling from the PC and to calculate some circuit's equations or some
> other telecommunication algorithms for projects or assigments and some
> statistics nothing big/professional, I would say
> hobby/self-teaching/want-to-stop-being-a-NOOB-programmer kinda motivation
> :).
I'd say Java or C# then. They're complex, but once you have an understanding
it'll go a long way to learning other languages if you want.
Get a book though. Learning by yourself is not the way to go with these
languages.
Though if yiou're rabidly anti-MS, that means that C# is out too. Pity,
cause it's actually a nice language. Designed by the same person who did
Delphi.
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Gail wrote:
>
> "Saul Luizaga" <sau### [at] netscapenet> wrote in message
> news:48d6d3f3$1@news.povray.org...
>
>> Well Gail, just for my University only, PIC and other integrated
>> circuit handling from the PC and to calculate some circuit's equations
>> or some other telecommunication algorithms for projects or assigments
>> and some statistics nothing big/professional, I would say
>> hobby/self-teaching/want-to-stop-being-a-NOOB-programmer kinda
>> motivation :).
>
> I'd say Java or C# then. They're complex, but once you have an
> understanding it'll go a long way to learning other languages if you want.
> Get a book though. Learning by yourself is not the way to go with these
> languages.
>
> Though if yiou're rabidly anti-MS, that means that C# is out too. Pity,
> cause it's actually a nice language. Designed by the same person who did
> Delphi.
I see...
But you see, what I meant in my first post about C++ was that you can
make and entire program in the HEADER of a for loop, I stand correct,
and other structures; in the header? really? that is way too... crazy? I
know this coz I was trying to learn C++ from a book, and taking this
powerful abstractions the language was simple and very understandable, I
really liked, but also was discouraged by the perspective that you'd
need a fair number of hours to do things in a efficient time frame, I
think, so maybe Haskel is the way to go for now.
One pro of C++/C# is that in every job requisite list I see:
programming/mastering C++ a plus. I rarely see they mention any other
language, and Haskel? never read/heard about it until this thread (sry
OrchidXPv8).
One more small favor can you briefly tell me the difference between C++
and C#, what improvements did this person to C#? Almost everyone here
has recommended it and no comments saying otherwise have been post, so
it must be powerful, I have no doubt, but I'd like to know that
difference to have a more complete opinion about C Language.
Thank you, I appreciate your advice.
Best Regards.
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