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Is it just me being paranoid? In order to avoid service charges on my
credit card, it has been my practice to maintain a constant positive
balance on the card. Enough that I wouldn't, though my own
forgetfulness, incur a service charge because some amount I charged hit
just at the due date and I forget to put money in. So now I see a debit
on my account marked REFUND AS R.
I phone the bank. I'm informed that it means REFUND AS REQUESTED. Who
requested? Not me for sure. The bank's system requested it, and, I am
told, sent me the check. And now I owe $9.50 on the account. I am told
that the back is required to refund a long-standing credit on the account.
'You mean I can't keep a positive balance on my credit card so as to
avoid a service charge?'
'Let me ask my supervisor'
:elevator music:
'Mr Charter my supervisor says the system is set up to refund any long
standing credit. She advises that if you want to keep a credit on the
account that it be no more than about $50.'
Unbelievable. So I am forced so play a sort of Russian roulette trying
to keep the balance equal to my charges and I am allowed a $50 buffer to
work with. I dunno. I feel conspired against.
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Jim Charter wrote:
> Is it just me being paranoid?
No. In lots of countries, the finance systems of this type are set up to
require a refund of over-paid bills.
I suggest that instead of this, you call the bank and say "I'd like you
to waive my annual fee indefinitely." They'll waive it for one year
(assuming you've been a good boy) and put it on the next year. Call them
up next year, tell them to waive it indefinitely again and you mean it
this time, and they'll see it was waived before and waive it indefinitely.
Then, pay your bills on time.
> And now I owe $9.50 on the account.
Uh, so pay it. A credit card is for credit, not a bank account. :-)
> 'You mean I can't keep a positive balance on my credit card so as to
> avoid a service charge?'
No. It's a credit card. (At least in the USA. IANAL.)
> Unbelievable. So I am forced so play a sort of Russian roulette trying
> to keep the balance equal to my charges and I am allowed a $50 buffer to
> work with. I dunno. I feel conspired against.
Don't you have a grace period in which to pay charges to the card? I
never had this problem.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Ever notice how people in a zombie movie never already know how to
kill zombies? Ask 100 random people in America how to kill someone
who has reanimated from the dead in a secret viral weapons lab,
and how many do you think already know you need a head-shot?
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"Jim Charter" <jrc### [at] msn com> wrote in message
news:4898ea29$1@news.povray.org...
> Is it just me being paranoid? In order to avoid service charges on my
> credit card, it has been my practice to maintain a constant positive
> balance on the card.
Why is it so difficult to pay off your balance each month, especially in
this day and age of electronic banking? It takes less effort than trying to
maintain a positive balance.
> Enough that I wouldn't, though my own forgetfulness, incur a service
> charge because some amount I charged hit just at the due date and
> I forget to put money in.
That's why there's a delay and a grace period. Even if you forget a payment,
calling within a reasonable time and saying you got the bill late in mail or
some other lame excuse, they will rollback the charge - remember, they want
your business.
> Unbelievable. So I am forced so play a sort of Russian roulette trying to
> keep the balance equal to my charges and I am allowed a $50 buffer to
> work with. I dunno. I feel conspired against.
I am not sure you have a grasp of how credit cards work. There's no russian
roulette, you get a bill, you pay it. It's no different than phone, gas,
electricity, water, taxes, insurance... etc. Do you also maintain a positive
balance on all of those?
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Jim Charter wrote:
> Unbelievable. So I am forced so play a sort of Russian roulette trying
> to keep the balance equal to my charges and I am allowed a $50 buffer to
> work with. I dunno. I feel conspired against.
Um... Isn't it the credit card company's *job* to scam you out of your
money? I mean, isn't that where 100% of their profits come from?
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Invisible wrote:
> Jim Charter wrote:
>
>> Unbelievable. So I am forced so play a sort of Russian roulette
>> trying to keep the balance equal to my charges and I am allowed a $50
>> buffer to work with. I dunno. I feel conspired against.
>
> Um... Isn't it the credit card company's *job* to scam you out of your
> money? I mean, isn't that where 100% of their profits come from?
>
No, part of it comes from the fee they charge all merchants for the
'privilege' of supporting their cards.
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Jim Charter wrote:
> Is it just me being paranoid?
I've never let a credit card charge me a 'service fee'. The trick, so
far, has been to read all the paperwork with someone else and to avoid
any thing they offer over the phone. Sure, some cards do have a monthly
or yearly fee, but I never got one of those.
I would say paying it on time is key, but with the companies cutting
grace periods down to 20 days, and then waiting till 3 days after the
closing date to actually mail a statement, it can get tough. I've
switched to paying online. When I pay the one bill, make a note of the
next closing on the calendar and be ready for it next month.
So, no, not paranoid. Paranoid would be using cash for everything to
stay untraceable. Or refusing to use cash because the serial numbers
could be traced back to you. Or worse.
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>> Um... Isn't it the credit card company's *job* to scam you out of your
>> money? I mean, isn't that where 100% of their profits come from?
>>
>
> No, part of it comes from the fee they charge all merchants for the
> 'privilege' of supporting their cards.
Ah, good point...
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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"Sabrina Kilian" <"ykgp at vtSPAM.edu"> wrote in message
news:48996c81$1@news.povray.org...
> No, part of it comes from the fee they charge all merchants for the
> 'privilege' of supporting their cards.
that's why i don't accept credit cards in my shop .... they want an
additional 3%. we do however accept debit cards. we get charged 15 cents per
transaction. every time i do a batch deposit it costs me 75 cents, then
theres the monthly account fee $10.75 .... even a $1.00 statement
preparation fee. i'm completly self help until the end of the season when i
empty the account. banks are a giant rip off. unfortunately keeping my money
stuffed in a mattress isn't an option.
Jim
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Sabrina Kilian wrote:
> Jim Charter wrote:
>> Is it just me being paranoid?
>
> I've never let a credit card charge me a 'service fee'. The trick, so
> far, has been to read all the paperwork with someone else and to avoid
> any thing they offer over the phone. Sure, some cards do have a monthly
> or yearly fee, but I never got one of those.
>
> I would say paying it on time is key, but with the companies cutting
> grace periods down to 20 days, and then waiting till 3 days after the
> closing date to actually mail a statement, it can get tough. I've
> switched to paying online. When I pay the one bill, make a note of the
> next closing on the calendar and be ready for it next month.
>
>
One better - some cards allow automatic payment of the balance - tied to
a bank account of course.
So now vacation and emergencies don't catch you off guard.
Tom
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Sabrina Kilian wrote:
> No, part of it comes from the fee they charge all merchants for the
> 'privilege' of supporting their cards.
And part comes from the interest they charge you for not paying off the
card before the end of the grace period. Personally, I've never had a
problem with "scams" because I follow the contract and pay things off.
Most of the complaints you read are along the lines of "I borrowed money
and didn't pay back the minimum, so they increased my rates, whaaa whaaa!"
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Ever notice how people in a zombie movie never already know how to
kill zombies? Ask 100 random people in America how to kill someone
who has reanimated from the dead in a secret viral weapons lab,
and how many do you think already know you need a head-shot?
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On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 09:28:51 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> Sabrina Kilian wrote:
>> No, part of it comes from the fee they charge all merchants for the
>> 'privilege' of supporting their cards.
>
> And part comes from the interest they charge you for not paying off the
> card before the end of the grace period. Personally, I've never had a
> problem with "scams" because I follow the contract and pay things off.
> Most of the complaints you read are along the lines of "I borrowed money
> and didn't pay back the minimum, so they increased my rates, whaaa
> whaaa!"
One of the nastier things they have started doing is sending out these
"convenience cheques" with low interest rates. You have to read the fine
print to see what the % is they're charging for the use of the cheque,
but even more insidious is that on some (Discover has done this) they
require you use the card 2 times a month to keep the lower rate, but the
payments you make go against the lowest interest rate first.
So, for example, on one of my Discover cards (don't ask - long story),
I've got a 0% transfer rate, but I have to use the card twice a month to
keep the 0% rate on what was transferred. But I get hit at something
like 14% on those two usages, and those two usages continue to accrue
interest until the 0% amount is paid off.
Fortunately, my two uses a month tend to be < $5 each (for buying lunch
in the office cafeteria), so they're not making a ton off of me for
that. But you have to manage it carefully and remember not to charge a
couple hundred bucks on it.
Jim
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Tom Austin wrote:
> One better - some cards allow automatic payment of the balance - tied to
> a bank account of course.
>
> So now vacation and emergencies don't catch you off guard.
>
>
>
> Tom
Big emergencies still will. Have you seen what some banks charge if you
drop below a certain amount or, worse, over draw the account?
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> One of the nastier things they have started doing is sending out these
> "convenience cheques" with low interest rates.
Yeah. I always call them up and tell them to either stop sending me
those checks or cancel my card. Surprisingly, the checks stop. Of
course, I'm a pretty good customer, so...
It helps to hold the same card for 20+ years and have good credit to
start with. Otherwise, it's hard to bargain from power.
I always liked the ads that come with those checks: "Cash some in and
spend it on fun stuff, or pay off bills, or just put it in the bank for
a rainy day!" Yeah, right.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Ever notice how people in a zombie movie never already know how to
kill zombies? Ask 100 random people in America how to kill someone
who has reanimated from the dead in a secret viral weapons lab,
and how many do you think already know you need a head-shot?
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On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 12:33:17 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> One of the nastier things they have started doing is sending out these
>> "convenience cheques" with low interest rates.
>
> Yeah. I always call them up and tell them to either stop sending me
> those checks or cancel my card. Surprisingly, the checks stop. Of
> course, I'm a pretty good customer, so...
I should try that. Thing is, when juggling balances between cards (had
some expenses that couldn't be avoided), they do come in handy when
there's no "you must use the card x times a month to keep the rate".
> It helps to hold the same card for 20+ years and have good credit to
> start with. Otherwise, it's hard to bargain from power.
Yep. I struggled with credit about 8 years ago, so we've finally gotten
on top of it now and our credit is good. The reason for *multiple*
discover cards was the 0% offer came with a new card only - they wouldn't
apply it to the old card, but they *also* wouldn't extend the old card's
credit or set my "member since" date to the earlier of the two dates. So
I keep the one card locked in the safe and just never use it. Every
couple of years I get a new one and activate it and they ask why I don't
use it, and I tell them that it's just so I have an account that goes
back to that original start date.
The thing that bugs me about those cheques the most, of course, is they
sit in my mailbox. Nothing like having blank cheques sitting someplace
where someone can come by and steal them - great way to "prevent" fraud,
innit?
> I always liked the ads that come with those checks: "Cash some in and
> spend it on fun stuff, or pay off bills, or just put it in the bank for
> a rainy day!" Yeah, right.
Yeah, that's really creative. I've gotten in the habit of reading *all*
the fine print and learning to understand it. Of course, the easiest
rule of thumb is "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is".
It's amazing more people don't understand that.
Jim
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> but they *also* wouldn't extend the old card's
> credit or set my "member since" date to the earlier of the two dates.
It took me three phone calls to get the card to have the member-since
date of before MBNA got aquired, yes. :-)
> The thing that bugs me about those cheques the most, of course, is they
> sit in my mailbox. Nothing like having blank cheques sitting someplace
> where someone can come by and steal them - great way to "prevent" fraud,
> innit?
That's why I call up and complain about it, and threaten to cancel if
they send me more.
I also don't use debit cards, for similar reasons.
> It's amazing more people don't understand that.
Yep.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Ever notice how people in a zombie movie never already know how to
kill zombies? Ask 100 random people in America how to kill someone
who has reanimated from the dead in a secret viral weapons lab,
and how many do you think already know you need a head-shot?
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On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 13:22:59 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> but they *also* wouldn't extend the old card's credit or set my "member
>> since" date to the earlier of the two dates.
>
> It took me three phone calls to get the card to have the member-since
> date of before MBNA got aquired, yes. :-)
I decided it was easier not to bother. It's not like I've got zero
credit available, so the difference in having the limits split between
two cards and on one card just means that I don't use that card as much,
since the point of the one with the earlier date is to just sit in the
safe. :-)
>> The thing that bugs me about those cheques the most, of course, is they
>> sit in my mailbox. Nothing like having blank cheques sitting someplace
>> where someone can come by and steal them - great way to "prevent"
>> fraud, innit?
>
> That's why I call up and complain about it, and threaten to cancel if
> they send me more.
Yeah, once I get my balances down a bit, I can make that kind of threat.
We did actually manage to get 0 balances on nearly everything (except the
home equity line of credit, but that's a different story anyways), but
then had some major car work that needed done. That's always the way I
*intend* to use the credit cards - just for emergency backup. It rarely
works out that way.
> I also don't use debit cards, for similar reasons.
Well, with the debit card, you've got a PIN associated with it, so I
don't quite understand the issue there. Of late, I've preferred to use
the debit card over a credit card just because I know I'm not going to
have to reconcile accounts later.
Jim
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"Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote in message
news:489a02ec$1@news.povray.org...
> The thing that bugs me about those cheques the most, of course, is they
> sit in my mailbox. Nothing like having blank cheques sitting someplace
> where someone can come by and steal them - great way to "prevent" fraud,
> innit?
After following this thread Jim, I've had quite a hard time comprehending
that they, (the bank(s)), "send you a cheque". I mean, I've always
understood that you can even *draw* a cheque on the side of some live beef
stock if you want, and as long as it's accepted by the recipient, the bank
will accept it as a genuine cheque. But they're sending blank cheques
through email??
To me, that sounds desperate.
~Steve~
> Jim
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On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 22:38:26 +0100, St. wrote:
> "Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote in message
> news:489a02ec$1@news.povray.org...
>
>> The thing that bugs me about those cheques the most, of course, is they
>> sit in my mailbox. Nothing like having blank cheques sitting someplace
>> where someone can come by and steal them - great way to "prevent"
>> fraud, innit?
>
> After following this thread Jim, I've had quite a hard time
> comprehending
> that they, (the bank(s)), "send you a cheque". I mean, I've always
> understood that you can even *draw* a cheque on the side of some live
> beef stock if you want, and as long as it's accepted by the recipient,
> the bank will accept it as a genuine cheque. But they're sending blank
> cheques through email??
Not via e-mail.... ;-)
But of course, you're using a different meaning for "cheque" than I am -
from the OED, though:
"Cheque is a differentiated spelling of check, which is also in use,
especially in U.S."
:-)
Jim
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On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 18:00:35 -0400, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 22:38:26 +0100, St. wrote:
>
>> "Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote in message
>> news:489a02ec$1@news.povray.org...
>>
>>> The thing that bugs me about those cheques the most, of course, is
>>> they sit in my mailbox. Nothing like having blank cheques sitting
>>> someplace where someone can come by and steal them - great way to
>>> "prevent" fraud, innit?
>>
>> After following this thread Jim, I've had quite a hard time
>> comprehending
>> that they, (the bank(s)), "send you a cheque". I mean, I've always
>> understood that you can even *draw* a cheque on the side of some live
>> beef stock if you want, and as long as it's accepted by the recipient,
>> the bank will accept it as a genuine cheque. But they're sending blank
>> cheques through email??
>
> Not via e-mail.... ;-)
>
> But of course, you're using a different meaning for "cheque" than I am -
...or maybe not, now that I reread it.
But yeah, the credit card companies have started sending this out as a
way to allow you to draw on your credit line; usually they have some sort
of special promotional interest rate associated with them.
The one that *really* bothers me, though, is when they pre-fill the
dollar amounts in.
Jim
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"Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote in message
news:489a1f75$1@news.povray.org...
> On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 18:00:35 -0400, Jim Henderson wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 22:38:26 +0100, St. wrote:
>>
>>> "Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote in message
>>> news:489a02ec$1@news.povray.org...
>>>
>>>> The thing that bugs me about those cheques the most, of course, is
>>>> they sit in my mailbox. Nothing like having blank cheques sitting
>>>> someplace where someone can come by and steal them - great way to
>>>> "prevent" fraud, innit?
>>>
>>> After following this thread Jim, I've had quite a hard time
>>> comprehending
>>> that they, (the bank(s)), "send you a cheque". I mean, I've always
>>> understood that you can even *draw* a cheque on the side of some live
>>> beef stock if you want, and as long as it's accepted by the recipient,
>>> the bank will accept it as a genuine cheque. But they're sending blank
>>> cheques through email??
>>
>> Not via e-mail.... ;-)
>>
>> But of course, you're using a different meaning for "cheque" than I am -
>
> ...or maybe not, now that I reread it.
Ah, no probs mate, it was the 'mailbox' word that made me think that.
>
> But yeah, the credit card companies have started sending this out as a
> way to allow you to draw on your credit line; usually they have some sort
> of special promotional interest rate associated with them.
Oh, I get those almost five days a week from differing banks than my
own. I can have £10,000 credit if I want, (instantly), but since my early
days living on the street and such, I've learnt the value of money I think,
(but I've got some heavy sh*t going on at the moment - damned inland
revenue!)
I use a debit card only and will never have a credit card.
>
> The one that *really* bothers me, though, is when they pre-fill the
> dollar amounts in.
Yes, it is tempting, but with the way the world is working now, you'd be
foolish to use any credit unless you can pay it in time. I pity young home
buyers. It just isn't going to happen the way it did a few years ago for
them.
~Steve~
>
> Jim
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> Well, with the debit card, you've got a PIN associated with it, so I
> don't quite understand the issue there.
Not the ones that work just like a credit card, AFAIK. In any case, the
legal system distinguishes. If someone's going to steal money, I want
it to be the bank's money, with them proving I owe it to them, rather
than my money, with me proving to the bank they need to give it back.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Ever notice how people in a zombie movie never already know how to
kill zombies? Ask 100 random people in America how to kill someone
who has reanimated from the dead in a secret viral weapons lab,
and how many do you think already know you need a head-shot?
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> One of the nastier things they have started doing is sending out these
> "convenience cheques" with low interest rates. You have to read the fine
> print to see what the % is they're charging for the use of the cheque,
> but even more insidious is that on some (Discover has done this) they
> require you use the card 2 times a month to keep the lower rate, but the
> payments you make go against the lowest interest rate first.
There's an ad around here for a *zero interest* loan. Fine print says
there's a 15% "administrative fee".
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Nicolas Alvarez wrote:
> There's an ad around here for a *zero interest* loan. Fine print says
> there's a 15% "administrative fee".
Depending on how long you have to pay back the loan, that could be a
pretty good dea.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Ever notice how people in a zombie movie never already know how to
kill zombies? Ask 100 random people in America how to kill someone
who has reanimated from the dead in a secret viral weapons lab,
and how many do you think already know you need a head-shot?
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Jim Charter wrote:
> Is it just me being paranoid? In order to avoid service charges on my
> credit card, it has been my practice to maintain a constant positive
> balance on the card. Enough that I wouldn't, though my own
> forgetfulness, incur a service charge because some amount I charged hit
> just at the due date and I forget to put money in. So now I see a debit
> on my account marked REFUND AS R.
>
> I phone the bank. I'm informed that it means REFUND AS REQUESTED. Who
> requested? Not me for sure. The bank's system requested it, and, I am
> told, sent me the check. And now I owe $9.50 on the account. I am told
> that the back is required to refund a long-standing credit on the account.
>
> 'You mean I can't keep a positive balance on my credit card so as to
> avoid a service charge?'
>
> 'Let me ask my supervisor'
>
> :elevator music:
>
> 'Mr Charter my supervisor says the system is set up to refund any long
> standing credit. She advises that if you want to keep a credit on the
> account that it be no more than about $50.'
>
> Unbelievable. So I am forced so play a sort of Russian roulette trying
> to keep the balance equal to my charges and I am allowed a $50 buffer to
> work with. I dunno. I feel conspired against.
Check to see if your card agreement allows them to refund positive
balances without your prior consent. If not, write a politely-worded
letter informing them that the account balance was low because they made
a transaction that you had not authorized, and that you will not accept
penalties that are consequent of their unauthorized account activity.
Finish by stating that failure to accommodate your request will result
in immediate account closure and that you will seek a court judgment
relieving you of the contested charge.
Since you have been maintaining a positive balance, they have probably
not been making any money off of you, so they will not be sorry to see
you go.
Regards,
John
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somebody wrote:
>
> Why is it so difficult to pay off your balance each month, especially in
> this day and age of electronic banking? It takes less effort than trying to
> maintain a positive balance.
Similar effort, I agree. It's completely irrational I'll admit, but I
find it easier, psychologically, to refresh a sort of pool or buffer
against future charges than to react to charges after the fact. I know
I'm being a baby but I also know how to lookout for my flaws after being
tripped up by them over the years. Maybe it allows, if you will, a
little more asynchronicity, or decoupling, and somehow that helps? It's
not a big deal, but then also why is it such a big deal for the bank if
I want to keep a +ve balance?
>
> That's why there's a delay and a grace period. Even if you forget a payment,
> calling within a reasonable time and saying you got the bill late in mail or
> some other lame excuse, they will rollback the charge - remember, they want
> your business.
>
I'll admit to being ill-informed and unsophisticated in these matters.
>
>>Unbelievable. So I am forced so play a sort of Russian roulette trying to
>>keep the balance equal to my charges and I am allowed a $50 buffer to
>>work with. I dunno. I feel conspired against.
>
>
> I am not sure you have a grasp of how credit cards work. There's no russian
> roulette, you get a bill, you pay it. It's no different than phone, gas,
> electricity, water, taxes, insurance... etc. Do you also maintain a positive
> balance on all of those?
>
Yes on phone and taxes. Wife pays the others. Well, I'd forget the
quarter tax payments if not for my wife reminding me. I do fall behind
on the cable payments but seem to muddle my way through that somehow.
They just keep adding to the charge. (I should check if there's a
penalty.) I am inconsistent, I agree. It worries me that the bank
charges a penalty but not so much the Cable guy.
In part, I think I got surprised by this just after listening to a radio
show where a guy just wrote a book about the abuses of the credit card
industry. So I was primed to react.
I realize I was a little over-dramatic with the Russian roulette line.
In my defense I developed the positive balance idea back when I
experimented with using the card for buying gas while driving taxi. I
would buy gas when 'bargain' opportunities arose as I drove to different
parts of the city. But the charges would come in from the different gas
companies very erratic and out of sequence and I always got nervous
around the due date. I didn't want to spend time every day transferring
money onto the card so I hit on the +ve balance idea. I think my
tripping their automatic refund thing must be related to amount as well
as time. I don't remember this happening then but it involved lower
amounts of money. But you have to understand, my mind is my clearer now
than it was even as little as two years ago.
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Invisible wrote:
> Jim Charter wrote:
>
>> Unbelievable. So I am forced so play a sort of Russian roulette
>> trying to keep the balance equal to my charges and I am allowed a $50
>> buffer to work with. I dunno. I feel conspired against.
>
>
> Um... Isn't it the credit card company's *job* to scam you out of your
> money? I mean, isn't that where 100% of their profits come from?
>
Well, that's where the tinfoil part comes in. The case can be made, but
they have a lot of arcane rules to conform to also. So I just don't know.
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Sabrina Kilian wrote:
>
> I've never let a credit card charge me a 'service fee'.
That's an impressive record. And having met you in person, I absolutely
believe you're capable of that kind of focus.
>
> I would say paying it on time is key,
Well see that is the thing, I was trying to pay ahead of time.
>
> So, no, not paranoid. Paranoid would be using cash for everything to
> stay untraceable.
Very tempting as a cab driver. I've actually been heckled by other
drivers when I stop at the bank to night-deposit my receipts.
Or refusing to use cash because the serial numbers
> could be traced back to you.
They can?
Or worse.
Oh sh*t, you think they know about the online stuff?
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Jim Holsenback wrote:
>
> that's why i don't accept credit cards in my shop ....
You have a shop? Cool.
they want an
> additional 3%.
NYC cabs get charged a 5% fee. And we did get to decide if we wanted it
or not. Bloomberg & Co decided for us.
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Darren New wrote:
>
>> 'You mean I can't keep a positive balance on my credit card so as to
>> avoid a service charge?'
>
>
> No. It's a credit card. (At least in the USA. IANAL.)
>
Yeah I guess. But that's the reason? Since it's called a credit card
account I can't keep a positive balance as a buffer? Their system seems
to be able to handle it, it expresses it as a negative amount owed, but
is programmed not to allow it. I know banks are subject to arcane and
sometimes surprising rules. I also know that they can seem pretty
sleasy and its hard to decide which is which sometimes. While I used
their phone menu system to inquire about this I was absolutely bombarded
with sales solicitations every step of the way.
"to hear about our ... product press 7
"to hear about our ... product press 8
"to hold for a representative press 9
>
> Don't you have a grace period in which to pay charges to the card?
I don't know, I assume so after reading these responses, I don't really
understand all the details, that's why I thought a +ve balance would
just be simpler.
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John VanSickle wrote:
> Check to see if your card agreement allows them to refund positive
> balances without your prior consent.
He would also need to check with a lawyer to see if state and federal
laws require them to do so regardless of the contract.
Probably not worth it, if he's not actually getting any fees.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Ever notice how people in a zombie movie never already know how to
kill zombies? Ask 100 random people in America how to kill someone
who has reanimated from the dead in a secret viral weapons lab,
and how many do you think already know you need a head-shot?
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Jim Charter wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>
>>
>>> 'You mean I can't keep a positive balance on my credit card so as to
>>> avoid a service charge?'
>>
>>
>> No. It's a credit card. (At least in the USA. IANAL.)
>>
>
> Yeah I guess. But that's the reason? Since it's called a credit card
> account I can't keep a positive balance as a buffer?
No. Because it's a credit card, it's highly regulated. I believe one of
the regulations is that they can't hold on to more than $X for more than
Y days without refunding it, to prevent them from (for example) having
you dispute a charge and then having them "refund" the money without
actually returning it to you.
Try paying an extra three months ahead on your water bill some time, and
see if they don't send it back.
> I don't know, I assume so after reading these responses, I don't really
> understand all the details, that's why I thought a +ve balance would
> just be simpler.
Probably reading the rules is easier. Check for "grace period" and see
what it says.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Ever notice how people in a zombie movie never already know how to
kill zombies? Ask 100 random people in America how to kill someone
who has reanimated from the dead in a secret viral weapons lab,
and how many do you think already know you need a head-shot?
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Darren New wrote:
> Probably reading the rules is easier. Check for "grace period" and see
> what it says.
More specifically, see what your grace period is and what your monthly
billing date is. Sign up for on-line bill paying at your bank. Complain
at them if it isn't free, or at least if it costs more than a stamp.
When you get the credit card bill, log in to your bank and set up a
payment of the amount you owe, to go thru several days before it's due.
Job complete.
More-organized people collect the mail, open the bills, and put them
into a little sorter with 31 slots in it, one for each day by which you
have to deal with that bill, available at all good office supply stores.
Then each day, when you pick up the mail, you look at which slots are
coming up and handle at least the looming ones if not all of them.
Usually you have at least a week to pay any bills you get, often two or
three. So sit down once a week at a specific time on a specific day and
spend 10 minutes dealing with it, even if it's just writing the checks
and stamping the envelopes rather than working it online.
If you're going on vacation, *then* overpay by how much you think you
might spend, or at least overpay the minimum charges, or set up an
online bill pay to go through for at least the minimum charges you
expect about the time you expect to get the bill.
Failure to pay your cable bills on time is probably dinging your credit
card accounts as well.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Ever notice how people in a zombie movie never already know how to
kill zombies? Ask 100 random people in America how to kill someone
who has reanimated from the dead in a secret viral weapons lab,
and how many do you think already know you need a head-shot?
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And lo on Wed, 06 Aug 2008 01:02:40 +0100, Jim Charter <jrc### [at] msncom>
did spake, saying:
> Is it just me being paranoid? In order to avoid service charges on my
> credit card, it has been my practice to maintain a constant positive
> balance on the card. Enough that I wouldn't, though my own
> forgetfulness, incur a service charge because some amount I charged hit
> just at the due date and I forget to put money in. So now I see a debit
> on my account marked REFUND AS R.
Like Steve I'm following this thread and getting confused, but for a
different reason. I have a credit card with one company, I've authorised
them to withdraw (and pay in) money to one of my bank accounts (another
company). About the second week of the month then pull the full amount
owed for the previous month. The only time I have to do anything is if I
don't want that to happen and I just want to pay the minimum and then
incur interest charges.
Same thing with the majority of utility bills - the invoice comes through
and the payment drawn a few days later. In some case they'll charge you an
'admin' fee for not doing it this way.
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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Phil Cook wrote:
> And lo on Wed, 06 Aug 2008 01:02:40 +0100, Jim Charter
> <jrc### [at] msncom> did spake, saying:
>
>> Is it just me being paranoid? In order to avoid service charges on
>> my credit card, it has been my practice to maintain a constant
>> positive balance on the card. Enough that I wouldn't, though my own
>> forgetfulness, incur a service charge because some amount I charged
>> hit just at the due date and I forget to put money in. So now I see
>> a debit on my account marked REFUND AS R.
>
>
> Like Steve I'm following this thread and getting confused, but for a
> different reason. I have a credit card with one company, I've
> authorised them to withdraw (and pay in) money to one of my bank
> accounts (another company). About the second week of the month then
> pull the full amount owed for the previous month. The only time I have
> to do anything is if I don't want that to happen and I just want to pay
> the minimum and then incur interest charges.
>
> Same thing with the majority of utility bills - the invoice comes
> through and the payment drawn a few days later. In some case they'll
> charge you an 'admin' fee for not doing it this way.
>
Yeah, I might try and get organized enough to try something like that.
At least for bills. I didn't know you could do it for credit card.
You're probably confused because normally people of my age are a little
more mature about these matters.
I had that set up once apon a time, I think with either cable or phone
but had one of the payments bounce. The company disallowed me to use
that method after that. I should probably try to set it up again.
With credit card though, I did like my +ve balance idea because it did
cause me to monitor activity on the card, but gave me a cushion if I got
the timing wrong.
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Darren New wrote:
>
> More specifically, see what your grace period is and what your monthly
> billing date is. Sign up for on-line bill paying at your bank. Complain
> at them if it isn't free, or at least if it costs more than a stamp.
Yes I have to understand this grace period concept better. I was under
the impression that at say midnight of the day of the due date which is
I think the 15th of the month, if I happened to have an amount owed
showing, then I would be charged interest. But if I put a transfer in
to pay it before the deadline I would be okay. So far, try as I might,
I seem to forget to check at deadline time.
I do pay most of my bills online, but as onetime payments usually.
>
> When you get the credit card bill, log in to your bank and set up a
> payment of the amount you owe, to go thru several days before it's due.
Yeah I know, and most of hte time that works, it's just taxing for me to
caonstantly remember.
>
> Job complete.
>
> More-organized people collect the mail, open the bills, and put them
> into a little sorter with 31 slots in it, one for each day by which you
> have to deal with that bill, available at all good office supply stores.
> Then each day, when you pick up the mail, you look at which slots are
> coming up and handle at least the looming ones if not all of them.
Wow! That's just way out of my league. Even if I had the space for such
a device my mail would start lapping the month.
>
> Usually you have at least a week to pay any bills you get, often two or
> three. So sit down once a week at a specific time on a specific day and
> spend 10 minutes dealing with it, even if it's just writing the checks
> and stamping the envelopes rather than working it online.
Gawd, shoot me now.
>
> Failure to pay your cable bills on time is probably dinging your credit
> card accounts as well.
Probably
>
Thanks for taking the time, Darren
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And lo on Thu, 07 Aug 2008 13:06:11 +0100, Jim Charter <jrc### [at] msncom>
did spake, saying:
> Phil Cook wrote:
>> And lo on Wed, 06 Aug 2008 01:02:40 +0100, Jim Charter
>> <jrc### [at] msncom> did spake, saying:
>>
>>> Is it just me being paranoid? In order to avoid service charges on
>>> my credit card, it has been my practice to maintain a constant
>>> positive balance on the card. Enough that I wouldn't, though my own
>>> forgetfulness, incur a service charge because some amount I charged
>>> hit just at the due date and I forget to put money in. So now I see
>>> a debit on my account marked REFUND AS R.
>> Like Steve I'm following this thread and getting confused, but for a
>> different reason. I have a credit card with one company, I've
>> authorised them to withdraw (and pay in) money to one of my bank
>> accounts (another company). About the second week of the month then
>> pull the full amount owed for the previous month. The only time I have
>> to do anything is if I don't want that to happen and I just want to
>> pay the minimum and then incur interest charges.
>> Same thing with the majority of utility bills - the invoice comes
>> through and the payment drawn a few days later. In some case they'll
>> charge you an 'admin' fee for not doing it this way.
>>
> Yeah, I might try and get organized enough to try something like that.
> At least for bills. I didn't know you could do it for credit card.
Well you can in the UK
> You're probably confused because normally people of my age are a little
> more mature about these matters.
Eh? You mean where I monitor bills and credit card statements as one
combined outgoing prior to payment dates and ensure that funds exist
within the bank account to deal with them in advance such that going on
holiday for a fortnight and not being able to get to the bills doesn't
mean me returning to invoice plus reminder plus reminder plus threatening
letter; that sort of maturity?
> I had that set up once apon a time, I think with either cable or phone
> but had one of the payments bounce. The company disallowed me to use
> that method after that. I should probably try to set it up again.
As I said some companies here penalise you if you don't do things this way.
> With credit card though, I did like my +ve balance idea because it did
> cause me to monitor activity on the card, but gave me a cushion if I got
> the timing wrong.
That's the bizarreness so you buy something on CC for $40 then when it
comes to pay you send them $50 so you have positive $10? The only way I
see this as a good thing is if the credit card pays interest on the
amount, which I know some do, but in that instance they wouldn't be
refunding it to you so why do it?
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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Jim Charter wrote:
> Yes I have to understand this grace period concept better. I was under
> the impression that at say midnight of the day of the due date which is
> I think the 15th of the month, if I happened to have an amount owed
> showing, then I would be charged interest.
Yes. But there's a grace period, meaning that if you charge something on
the 1st, and it shows up on the bill on the 3rd, and the payment is due
on the 10th, that particular charge won't be part of what you need to
pay. In other words, if your payment date is the 15th, anything charged
after the beginning of the month shows up not on this bill but on the
next bill, giving you a two-week grace period. They should be mailing
you the bill weeks before the payment due date. If they haven't mailed
you the bill for it, you don't need to pay it yet, even if it was
charged between the time they mailed you the bill and the time the bill
is due.
> But if I put a transfer in
> to pay it before the deadline I would be okay. So far, try as I might,
> I seem to forget to check at deadline time.
Pay it when the bill shows up. Leave it on the breakfast table, so it's
annoyingly in the way every morning, then just ... take care of it.
There are some things you have to do, like putting gas in the car, that
you just have to do.
> I do pay most of my bills online, but as onetime payments usually.
Me too. I used to just write checks, but paying online is just as easy
at this point. And handy if you know you'll be away.
> Yeah I know, and most of hte time that works, it's just taxing for me to
> caonstantly remember.
What's to remember? The bill shows up in the mail, you pay it that day. :-)
> Wow! That's just way out of my league. Even if I had the space for such
> a device my mail would start lapping the month.
Well, yes. To be honest, I don't even do that. :-) But it's the way
(say) a small business handles it, where it's worth deferring bills
until the due date.
Better is to just pay it when it shows up.
> Thanks for taking the time, Darren
Sure. It's just a habit you need to get into, like looking at the gas
guage once in a while, and stopping when you need to.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Ever notice how people in a zombie movie never already know how to
kill zombies? Ask 100 random people in America how to kill someone
who has reanimated from the dead in a secret viral weapons lab,
and how many do you think already know you need a head-shot?
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Phil Cook wrote:
> Same thing with the majority of utility bills - the invoice comes
> through and the payment drawn a few days later.
While handy, it hasn't been available in the USA long enough for me to
trust it to work reliably. :-) It only took them about 5 or 10 years
before direct deposit failed to suck. No way am I letting them take it
*out* without my interaction.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Ever notice how people in a zombie movie never already know how to
kill zombies? Ask 100 random people in America how to kill someone
who has reanimated from the dead in a secret viral weapons lab,
and how many do you think already know you need a head-shot?
Post a reply to this message
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Darren New wrote:
> > But if I put a transfer in
>> to pay it before the deadline I would be okay. So far, try as I
>> might, I seem to forget to check at deadline time.
>
> Pay it when the bill shows up. Leave it on the breakfast table, so it's
> annoyingly in the way every morning, then just ... take care of it.
Never underestimate the extent one can get used to junk lying around.
> There are some things you have to do, like putting gas in the car, that
> you just have to do.
I need gas. I don't need to pay the bill. Not paying a credit card bill
does not have immediate consequences.
--
The severity of the itch is proportional to the reach.
/\ /\ /\ /
/ \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z
>>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
anl
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Jim Henderson wrote:
>> I also don't use debit cards, for similar reasons.
>
> Well, with the debit card, you've got a PIN associated with it, so I
> don't quite understand the issue there. Of late, I've preferred to use
If you can use it as a credit card, then no. No PIN is needed and the
money is still debited from the account.
--
The severity of the itch is proportional to the reach.
/\ /\ /\ /
/ \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z
>>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
anl
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And lo on Thu, 07 Aug 2008 16:25:17 +0100, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom>
did spake, saying:
> Phil Cook wrote:
>> Same thing with the majority of utility bills - the invoice comes
>> through and the payment drawn a few days later.
>
> While handy, it hasn't been available in the USA long enough for me to
> trust it to work reliably. :-) It only took them about 5 or 10 years
> before direct deposit failed to suck. No way am I letting them take it
> *out* without my interaction.
Fair enough, I've had reliable direct deposit for over 15 years, and
direct debit for over 10 which is why I found this rigmarole over positive
credit balance etc. a bit odd.
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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Jim Charter wrote:
>> Same thing with the majority of utility bills - the invoice comes
>> through and the payment drawn a few days later. In some case they'll
>> charge you an 'admin' fee for not doing it this way.
>>
> Yeah, I might try and get organized enough to try something like that.
> At least for bills. I didn't know you could do it for credit card.
I never opted for this. Times have arisen where I wanted to dispute a
charge or two. I'd rather dispute first and pay later than the reverse.
If it's your first few offenses, you can usually get fees waived. In my
first so many years of using a CC, I'd rarely been late on a payment and
always called and got an extension or a waiver. Then one time it
happened again. I just got sick of it all - the reason was that whereas
before it was late if it were paid after midnight, now it was late if
paid after 5pm. Then it became late after 4pm (they invoked a time zone
argument). So I just said to them:
"I'm kinda sick of this. I won't dispute anything. But please shut down
my account and I'll pay whatever's left + fines".
They "convinced" me to keep the account open if they'd waive the fines.
I've been late only once after that, and they played a new "trick" on
me. Deadline to pay was, say, May 1st. I missed it and thought, "What
the heck, it's too late, I'll pay when I get the next statement and pay
both together". So I got a late fee and interest, which showed up on my
next bill. I paid it all on time (I always pay the whole balance). Then
on the *next* bill, I get another interest charge. How come? I had paid
the whole balance! Well, it was a sort of residual interest on the
earlier interest. Once I'd paid that, I got no more interest charges. It
makes sense, but a lot of CC companies didn't do that in the past. I
hear it's becoming more common.
I now try to use the CC for online-only transactions. There was a long
while where I just kept it at home. I try to pay whatever I can in cash
now. Not to save money, but I got wary of various companies knowing my
shopping habits.
Paranoia, as Sabrina said.
--
The severity of the itch is proportional to the reach.
/\ /\ /\ /
/ \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z
>>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
anl
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On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 16:05:52 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Well, with the debit card, you've got a PIN associated with it, so I
>> don't quite understand the issue there.
>
> Not the ones that work just like a credit card, AFAIK. In any case, the
> legal system distinguishes. If someone's going to steal money, I want
> it to be the bank's money, with them proving I owe it to them, rather
> than my money, with me proving to the bank they need to give it back.
Oh, I see - yes, and that additional bit of information there on the
legal side of things makes perfect sense to me.
Jim
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On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 11:02:04 -0500, Mueen Nawaz wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> I also don't use debit cards, for similar reasons.
>>
>> Well, with the debit card, you've got a PIN associated with it, so I
>> don't quite understand the issue there. Of late, I've preferred to use
>
> If you can use it as a credit card, then no. No PIN is needed and
the
> money is still debited from the account.
That's true, hadn't even thought of that.
Jim
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On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 23:35:15 +0100, St. wrote:
>>> Not via e-mail.... ;-)
>>>
>>> But of course, you're using a different meaning for "cheque" than I am
>>> -
>>
>> ...or maybe not, now that I reread it.
>
> Ah, no probs mate, it was the 'mailbox' word that made me think
> that.
Darned technology, anyways. ;-)
>> But yeah, the credit card companies have started sending this out as a
>> way to allow you to draw on your credit line; usually they have some
>> sort of special promotional interest rate associated with them.
>
> Oh, I get those almost five days a week from differing banks than
> my
> own. I can have £10,000 credit if I want, (instantly), but since my
> early days living on the street and such, I've learnt the value of money
> I think, (but I've got some heavy sh*t going on at the moment - damned
> inland revenue!)
>
> I use a debit card only and will never have a credit card.
In thinking about what Darren wrote not long after what you wrote here,
might be worth another thought on that. Just does require some
management and discipline = two things I'm not overly good at.
>> The one that *really* bothers me, though, is when they pre-fill the
>> dollar amounts in.
>
> Yes, it is tempting, but with the way the world is working now, you'd
> be
> foolish to use any credit unless you can pay it in time. I pity young
> home buyers. It just isn't going to happen the way it did a few years
> ago for them.
True enough; when my first credit card company pushed my limit over $10K,
I got much more cautious with the usage because I don't want to owe that
kind of money on an unsecured loan of any kind. I'd much rather have
things paid off (that's a really good feeling to have).
Jim
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On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 20:25:29 -0300, Nicolas Alvarez wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> One of the nastier things they have started doing is sending out these
>> "convenience cheques" with low interest rates. You have to read the
>> fine print to see what the % is they're charging for the use of the
>> cheque, but even more insidious is that on some (Discover has done
>> this) they require you use the card 2 times a month to keep the lower
>> rate, but the payments you make go against the lowest interest rate
>> first.
>
> There's an ad around here for a *zero interest* loan. Fine print says
> there's a 15% "administrative fee".
Yeah, I love how they can do that...
Jim
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> I don't want to owe that
> kind of money on an unsecured loan of any kind. I'd much rather have
> things paid off (that's a really good feeling to have).
That's good. But better an unsecured loan than a secured loan! :-)
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Ever notice how people in a zombie movie never already know how to
kill zombies? Ask 100 random people in America how to kill someone
who has reanimated from the dead in a secret viral weapons lab,
and how many do you think already know you need a head-shot?
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On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 14:28:52 +0100, Phil Cook wrote:
>>> Same thing with the majority of utility bills - the invoice comes
>>> through and the payment drawn a few days later. In some case they'll
>>> charge you an 'admin' fee for not doing it this way.
>>>
>> Yeah, I might try and get organized enough to try something like that.
>> At least for bills. I didn't know you could do it for credit card.
>
> Well you can in the UK
You can with some cards in the US as well. We do autopay for nearly
everything (but we also look at the bills closely, too) - I think one of
our basic services (water, electric, something like that) doesn't have
the option, and Discover doesn't do that, but they do let you pay
online. So I just go and submit next month's payment when the previous
month's clears.
Got hung up *once* with this because the payment I put in ended up being
less than the minimum (had to get the brakes done on the car - and we
used the wrong card) and I got a call from their collections department
the *day* after the bill was due. We got them to reverse the late fee
and reinstate the 0% transfer balance, but it was really surprising they
turned it over to collections so quickly. Discover Financial apparently
is struggling.
(Of course you wouldn't know anything about them in the UK, since
virtually nobody accepts them over there)
Jim
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On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 09:49:24 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> I don't want to owe that
>> kind of money on an unsecured loan of any kind. I'd much rather have
>> things paid off (that's a really good feeling to have).
>
> That's good. But better an unsecured loan than a secured loan! :-)
Well, from a credit standpoint, a secured loan like an equity line (where
the "security" is the property) makes good sense. I have heard some
people use the equity in their homes to make money (by investing it), but
that seems a little risky to me. But for doing things like putting a new
roof on the house (which we had to do - to the tune of about $14,000 this
year), that is a good way to cover a cost like that.
But using that money appropriately is the key - using it to enhance the
value of the property through improvements seems to be the best route to
go.
That's what I meant by "secured" - which I know is different than other
types of "secured" credit cards (where you pay money as a security
deposit and then your limit is set to what you put down as a deposit).
Jim
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"Mueen Nawaz" <m.n### [at] ieeeorg> wrote in message
news:489b20cd$1@news.povray.org...
> I now try to use the CC for online-only transactions. There was a long
> while where I just kept it at home. I try to pay whatever I can in cash
> now. Not to save money, but I got wary of various companies knowing my
> shopping habits.
That's exactly what I do. I hope they never get rid of cash, to me, it's
the most important thing in life, (as far as paying something goes). I
wouldn't feel safe if there wasn't any hard cash to use.
> Paranoia, as Sabrina said.
Yes, that's it.
~Steve~
>
> --
> The severity of the itch is proportional to the reach.
>
>
> /\ /\ /\ /
> / \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z
> >>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
> anl
>
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