And lo on Thu, 07 Aug 2008 13:06:11 +0100, Jim Charter <jrc### [at] msncom>  
did spake, saying:

> Phil Cook wrote:
>> And lo on Wed, 06 Aug 2008 01:02:40 +0100, Jim Charter  
>> <jrc### [at] msncom>  did spake, saying:
>>
>>> Is it just me being paranoid?  In order to avoid service charges on  
>>> my  credit card, it has been my practice to maintain a constant  
>>> positive  balance on the card.  Enough that I wouldn't, though my own   
>>> forgetfulness, incur a service charge because some amount I charged  
>>> hit  just at the due date and I forget to put money in.  So now I see  
>>> a debit  on my account marked REFUND AS R.
>>   Like Steve I'm following this thread and getting confused, but for a   
>> different reason. I have a credit card with one company, I've  
>> authorised  them to withdraw (and pay in) money to one of my bank  
>> accounts (another  company). About the second week of the month then  
>> pull the full amount  owed for the previous month. The only time I have  
>> to do anything is if I  don't want that to happen and I just want to  
>> pay the minimum and then  incur interest charges.
>>  Same thing with the majority of utility bills - the invoice comes  
>> through  and the payment drawn a few days later. In some case they'll  
>> charge you an  'admin' fee for not doing it this way.
>>
> Yeah, I might try and get organized enough to try something like that.  
> At least for bills.  I didn't know you could do it for credit card.

Well you can in the UK

> You're probably confused because normally people of my age are a little  
> more mature about these matters.

Eh? You mean where I monitor bills and credit card statements as one  
combined outgoing prior to payment dates and ensure that funds exist  
within the bank account to deal with them in advance such that going on  
holiday for a fortnight and not being able to get to the bills doesn't  
mean me returning to invoice plus reminder plus reminder plus threatening  
letter; that sort of maturity?

> I had that set up once apon a time, I think with either cable or phone  
> but had one of the payments bounce.  The company disallowed me to use  
> that method after that.  I should probably try to set it up again.

As I said some companies here penalise you if you don't do things this way.

> With credit card though, I did like my +ve balance idea because it did  
> cause me to monitor activity on the card, but gave me a cushion if I got  
> the timing wrong.

That's the bizarreness so you buy something on CC for $40 then when it  
comes to pay you send them $50 so you have positive $10? The only way I  
see this as a good thing is if the credit card pays interest on the  
amount, which I know some do, but in that instance they wouldn't be  
refunding it to you so why do it?

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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Jim Charter wrote:
> Yes I have to understand this grace period concept better.  I was under 
> the impression that at say midnight of the day of the due date which is 
> I think the 15th of the month, if I happened to have an amount owed 
> showing, then I would be charged interest. 

Yes. But there's a grace period, meaning that if you charge something on 
the 1st, and it shows up on the bill on the 3rd, and the payment is due 
on the 10th, that particular charge won't be part of what you need to 
pay. In other words, if your payment date is the 15th, anything charged 
after the beginning of the month shows up not on this bill but on the 
next bill, giving you a two-week grace period. They should be mailing 
you the bill weeks before the payment due date. If they haven't mailed 
you the bill for it, you don't need to pay it yet, even if it was 
charged between the time they mailed you the bill and the time the bill 
is due.

 > But if I put a transfer in
> to pay it before the deadline I would be okay.  So far, try as I might, 
> I seem to forget to check at deadline time.

Pay it when the bill shows up. Leave it on the breakfast table, so it's 
annoyingly in the way every morning, then just ... take care of it. 
There are some things you have to do, like putting gas in the car, that 
you just have to do.

> I do pay most of my bills online, but as onetime payments usually.

Me too. I used to just write checks, but paying online is just as easy 
at this point. And handy if you know you'll be away.

> Yeah I know, and most of hte time that works, it's just taxing for me to 
> caonstantly remember.

What's to remember? The bill shows up in the mail, you pay it that day. :-)

> Wow! That's just way out of my league.  Even if I had the space for such 
> a device my mail would start lapping the month.

Well, yes. To be honest, I don't even do that. :-) But it's the way 
(say) a small business handles it, where it's worth deferring bills 
until the due date.

Better is to just pay it when it shows up.

> Thanks for taking the time, Darren

Sure. It's just a habit you need to get into, like looking at the gas 
guage once in a while, and stopping when you need to.

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
  Ever notice how people in a zombie movie never already know how to
  kill zombies? Ask 100 random people in America how to kill someone
  who has reanimated from the dead in a secret viral weapons lab,
  and how many do you think already know you need a head-shot?

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Phil Cook wrote:
> Same thing with the majority of utility bills - the invoice comes 
> through and the payment drawn a few days later.

While handy, it hasn't been available in the USA long enough for me to 
trust it to work reliably. :-) It only took them about 5 or 10 years 
before direct deposit failed to suck. No way am I letting them take it 
*out* without my interaction.

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
  Ever notice how people in a zombie movie never already know how to
  kill zombies? Ask 100 random people in America how to kill someone
  who has reanimated from the dead in a secret viral weapons lab,
  and how many do you think already know you need a head-shot?

Post a reply to this message

Darren New wrote:
>  > But if I put a transfer in
>> to pay it before the deadline I would be okay.  So far, try as I 
>> might, I seem to forget to check at deadline time.
> 
> Pay it when the bill shows up. Leave it on the breakfast table, so it's 
> annoyingly in the way every morning, then just ... take care of it. 

	Never underestimate the extent one can get used to junk lying around.

> There are some things you have to do, like putting gas in the car, that 
> you just have to do.

	I need gas. I don't need to pay the bill. Not paying a credit card bill 
does not have immediate consequences.

-- 
The severity of the itch is proportional to the reach.


                     /\  /\               /\  /
                    /  \/  \ u e e n     /  \/  a w a z
                        >>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
                                    anl

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Jim Henderson wrote:
>> I also don't use debit cards, for similar reasons.
> 
> Well, with the debit card, you've got a PIN associated with it, so I 
> don't quite understand the issue there.  Of late, I've preferred to use 

	If you can use it as a credit card, then no. No PIN is needed and the 
money is still debited from the account.

-- 
The severity of the itch is proportional to the reach.


                     /\  /\               /\  /
                    /  \/  \ u e e n     /  \/  a w a z
                        >>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
                                    anl

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And lo on Thu, 07 Aug 2008 16:25:17 +0100, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom>  
did spake, saying:

> Phil Cook wrote:
>> Same thing with the majority of utility bills - the invoice comes  
>> through and the payment drawn a few days later.
>
> While handy, it hasn't been available in the USA long enough for me to  
> trust it to work reliably. :-) It only took them about 5 or 10 years  
> before direct deposit failed to suck. No way am I letting them take it  
> *out* without my interaction.

Fair enough, I've had reliable direct deposit for over 15 years, and  
direct debit for over 10 which is why I found this rigmarole over positive  
credit balance etc. a bit odd.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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Jim Charter wrote:
>> Same thing with the majority of utility bills - the invoice comes 
>> through  and the payment drawn a few days later. In some case they'll 
>> charge you an  'admin' fee for not doing it this way.
>>
> Yeah, I might try and get organized enough to try something like that. 
> At least for bills.  I didn't know you could do it for credit card.

	I never opted for this. Times have arisen where I wanted to dispute a 
charge or two. I'd rather dispute first and pay later than the reverse.

	If it's your first few offenses, you can usually get fees waived. In my 
first so many years of using a CC, I'd rarely been late on a payment and 
always called and got an extension or a waiver. Then one time it 
happened again. I just got sick of it all - the reason was that whereas 
before it was late if it were paid after midnight, now it was late if 
paid after 5pm. Then it became late after 4pm (they invoked a time zone 
argument). So I just said to them:

"I'm kinda sick of this. I won't dispute anything. But please shut down 
my account and I'll pay whatever's left + fines".

	They "convinced" me to keep the account open if they'd waive the fines.
	
	I've been late only once after that, and they played a new "trick" on 
me. Deadline to pay was, say, May 1st. I missed it and thought, "What 
the heck, it's too late, I'll pay when I get the next statement and pay 
both together". So I got a late fee and interest, which showed up on my 
next bill. I paid it all on time (I always pay the whole balance). Then 
on the *next* bill, I get another interest charge. How come? I had paid 
the whole balance! Well, it was a sort of residual interest on the 
earlier interest. Once I'd paid that, I got no more interest charges. It 
makes sense, but a lot of CC companies didn't do that in the past. I 
hear it's becoming more common.

	I now try to use the CC for online-only transactions. There was a long 
while where I just kept it at home. I try to pay whatever I can in cash 
now. Not to save money, but I got wary of various companies knowing my 
shopping habits.

	Paranoia, as Sabrina said. 	

-- 
The severity of the itch is proportional to the reach.


                     /\  /\               /\  /
                    /  \/  \ u e e n     /  \/  a w a z
                        >>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
                                    anl

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On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 16:05:52 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Well, with the debit card, you've got a PIN associated with it, so I
>> don't quite understand the issue there.
> 
> Not the ones that work just like a credit card, AFAIK. In any case, the
> legal system distinguishes.  If someone's going to steal money, I want
> it to be the bank's money, with them proving I owe it to them, rather
> than my money, with me proving to the bank they need to give it back.

Oh, I see - yes, and that additional bit of information there on the 
legal side of things makes perfect sense to me.

Jim

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On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 11:02:04 -0500, Mueen Nawaz wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> I also don't use debit cards, for similar reasons.
>> 
>> Well, with the debit card, you've got a PIN associated with it, so I
>> don't quite understand the issue there.  Of late, I've preferred to use
> 
> 	If you can use it as a credit card, then no. No PIN is needed and 
the
> money is still debited from the account.

That's true, hadn't even thought of that.

Jim

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On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 23:35:15 +0100, St. wrote:

>>> Not via e-mail.... ;-)
>>>
>>> But of course, you're using a different meaning for "cheque" than I am
>>> -
>>
>> ...or maybe not, now that I reread it.
> 
>      Ah, no probs mate, it was the 'mailbox' word that made me think
>      that.

Darned technology, anyways. ;-)

>> But yeah, the credit card companies have started sending this out as a
>> way to allow you to draw on your credit line; usually they have some
>> sort of special promotional interest rate associated with them.
> 
>      Oh, I get those almost five days a week from differing banks than
>      my
> own. I can have £10,000 credit if I want, (instantly), but since my
> early days living on the street and such, I've learnt the value of money
> I think, (but I've got some heavy sh*t going on at the moment - damned
> inland revenue!)
> 
>    I use a debit card only and will never have a credit card.

In thinking about what Darren wrote not long after what you wrote here, 
might be worth another thought on that.  Just does require some 
management and discipline = two things I'm not overly good at.

>> The one that *really* bothers me, though, is when they pre-fill the
>> dollar amounts in.
> 
>  Yes, it is tempting, but with the way the world is working now, you'd
>  be
> foolish to use any credit unless you can pay it in time. I pity young
> home buyers. It just isn't going to happen the way it did a few years
> ago for them.

True enough; when my first credit card company pushed my limit over $10K, 
I got much more cautious with the usage because I don't want to owe that 
kind of money on an unsecured loan of any kind.  I'd much rather have 
things paid off (that's a really good feeling to have).

Jim

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On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 20:25:29 -0300, Nicolas Alvarez wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> One of the nastier things they have started doing is sending out these
>> "convenience cheques" with low interest rates.  You have to read the
>> fine print to see what the % is they're charging for the use of the
>> cheque, but even more insidious is that on some (Discover has done
>> this) they require you use the card 2 times a month to keep the lower
>> rate, but the payments you make go against the lowest interest rate
>> first.
> 
> There's an ad around here for a *zero interest* loan. Fine print says
> there's a 15% "administrative fee".

Yeah, I love how they can do that...

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> I don't want to owe that 
> kind of money on an unsecured loan of any kind.  I'd much rather have 
> things paid off (that's a really good feeling to have).

That's good.  But better an unsecured loan than a secured loan! :-)

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
  Ever notice how people in a zombie movie never already know how to
  kill zombies? Ask 100 random people in America how to kill someone
  who has reanimated from the dead in a secret viral weapons lab,
  and how many do you think already know you need a head-shot?

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 14:28:52 +0100, Phil Cook wrote:

>>>  Same thing with the majority of utility bills - the invoice comes
>>> through  and the payment drawn a few days later. In some case they'll
>>> charge you an  'admin' fee for not doing it this way.
>>>
>> Yeah, I might try and get organized enough to try something like that.
>> At least for bills.  I didn't know you could do it for credit card.
> 
> Well you can in the UK

You can with some cards in the US as well.  We do autopay for nearly 
everything (but we also look at the bills closely, too) - I think one of 
our basic services (water, electric, something like that) doesn't have 
the option, and Discover doesn't do that, but they do let you pay 
online.  So I just go and submit next month's payment when the previous 
month's clears.

Got hung up *once* with this because the payment I put in ended up being 
less than the minimum (had to get the brakes done on the car - and we 
used the wrong card) and I got a call from their collections department 
the *day* after the bill was due.  We got them to reverse the late fee 
and reinstate the 0% transfer balance, but it was really surprising they 
turned it over to collections so quickly.  Discover Financial apparently 
is struggling.

(Of course you wouldn't know anything about them in the UK, since 
virtually nobody accepts them over there)

Jim

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On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 09:49:24 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> I don't want to owe that
>> kind of money on an unsecured loan of any kind.  I'd much rather have
>> things paid off (that's a really good feeling to have).
> 
> That's good.  But better an unsecured loan than a secured loan! :-)

Well, from a credit standpoint, a secured loan like an equity line (where 
the "security" is the property) makes good sense.  I have heard some 
people use the equity in their homes to make money (by investing it), but 
that seems a little risky to me.  But for doing things like putting a new 
roof on the house (which we had to do - to the tune of about $14,000 this 
year), that is a good way to cover a cost like that.

But using that money appropriately is the key - using it to enhance the 
value of the property through improvements seems to be the best route to 
go.

That's what I meant by "secured" - which I know is different than other 
types of "secured" credit cards (where you pay money as a security 
deposit and then your limit is set to what you put down as a deposit).

Jim

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"Mueen Nawaz" <m.n### [at] ieeeorg> wrote in message 
news:489b20cd$1@news.povray.org...

> I now try to use the CC for online-only transactions. There was a long 
> while where I just kept it at home. I try to pay whatever I can in cash 
> now. Not to save money, but I got wary of various companies knowing my 
> shopping habits.


 That's exactly what I do. I hope they never get rid of cash, to me, it's 
the most important thing in life, (as far as paying something goes). I 
wouldn't feel safe if there wasn't any hard cash to use.

> Paranoia, as Sabrina said.

    Yes, that's it.

       ~Steve~


>
> -- 
> The severity of the itch is proportional to the reach.
>
>
>                     /\  /\               /\  /
>                    /  \/  \ u e e n     /  \/  a w a z
>                        >>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
>                                    anl
>

Post a reply to this message

"Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote in message 
news:489b2bbd$1@news.povray.org...
> On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 09:49:24 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> But using that money appropriately is the key - using it to enhance the
> value of the property through improvements seems to be the best route to
> go.

    I think that has 'always' been the way to go. I know if I want, (and 
NEED), a new roof for my place, then your mother bank is the person to ask. 
I think you'll probably always get it. (Well, as long as you've never been a 
defaulter, that is).


       ~Steve~



> Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 18:43:01 +0100, St. wrote:

> "Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote in message
> news:489b2bbd$1@news.povray.org...
>> On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 09:49:24 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> 
>> But using that money appropriately is the key - using it to enhance the
>> value of the property through improvements seems to be the best route
>> to go.
> 
>     I think that has 'always' been the way to go. I know if I want, (and
> NEED), a new roof for my place, then your mother bank is the person to
> ask. I think you'll probably always get it. (Well, as long as you've
> never been a defaulter, that is).

Yep - as long as you've got good credit (both in general and with the 
bank), that goes a long ways.

Jim

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On Tue, 05 Aug 2008 18:14:54 -0700, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:

>  and how many do you think already know you need a head-shot?

Oh! Thanks, next time I'm in the Caribbean I'll remember that :)
I hope.
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 09:49:24 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> 
>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> I don't want to owe that
>>> kind of money on an unsecured loan of any kind.  I'd much rather have
>>> things paid off (that's a really good feeling to have).
>> That's good.  But better an unsecured loan than a secured loan! :-)
> 
> Well, from a credit standpoint, a secured loan like an equity line (where 
> the "security" is the property) makes good sense.

Sure. I just meant that all else being equal, having the person you owe 
money to being unable to do something about it if you don't pay them 
back is a good thing. :-)

Of course, it's easier to get a lower rate and more money on a secured 
loan.

> I have heard some 
> people use the equity in their homes to make money (by investing it), but 
> that seems a little risky to me.  

Everything that makes you money is risky. It's a matter of whether the 
payment is worth the risk.

> But using that money appropriately is the key - using it to enhance the 
> value of the property through improvements seems to be the best route to 
> go.

It certainly doesn't hurt.  Even better is saving up, *earning* 
interest, *then* putting the roof on, if you can wait.

> types of "secured" credit cards (where you pay money as a security 
> deposit and then your limit is set to what you put down as a deposit).

The quotes shouldn't be around "secured" but around "credit" there. It 
isn't a credit card if you're not borrowing the money.

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
  Ever notice how people in a zombie movie never already know how to
  kill zombies? Ask 100 random people in America how to kill someone
  who has reanimated from the dead in a secret viral weapons lab,
  and how many do you think already know you need a head-shot?

Post a reply to this message

St. wrote:
>  That's exactly what I do. I hope they never get rid of cash,

They can't. There's huge portions of the economy that are actually 
black-market. :-)

Alternately, they already have. There's no cash left. All that's left is 
debt and federal reserve notes.

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
  Ever notice how people in a zombie movie never already know how to
  kill zombies? Ask 100 random people in America how to kill someone
  who has reanimated from the dead in a secret viral weapons lab,
  and how many do you think already know you need a head-shot?

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 11:37:46 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 09:49:24 -0700, Darren New wrote:
>> 
>>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>> I don't want to owe that
>>>> kind of money on an unsecured loan of any kind.  I'd much rather have
>>>> things paid off (that's a really good feeling to have).
>>> That's good.  But better an unsecured loan than a secured loan! :-)
>> 
>> Well, from a credit standpoint, a secured loan like an equity line
>> (where the "security" is the property) makes good sense.
> 
> Sure. I just meant that all else being equal, having the person you owe
> money to being unable to do something about it if you don't pay them
> back is a good thing. :-)
> 
> Of course, it's easier to get a lower rate and more money on a secured
> loan.

Oh, ISWYM.  And yes, good point.

>> I have heard some
>> people use the equity in their homes to make money (by investing it),
>> but that seems a little risky to me.
> 
> Everything that makes you money is risky. It's a matter of whether the
> payment is worth the risk.

True.  I know that some loans do prohibit certain uses of the money, but 
that seems *generally* easy to get around - you don't use the loan money 
for investing, but you use it to pay for what it's allowed for, freeing 
up other money for investment.  I suspect those types of restrictions 
would be very difficult to enforce.

>> But using that money appropriately is the key - using it to enhance the
>> value of the property through improvements seems to be the best route
>> to go.
> 
> It certainly doesn't hurt.  Even better is saving up, *earning*
> interest, *then* putting the roof on, if you can wait.

Of course.  Most people find it difficult to save up the $14K that we had 
to spend (total tear-off and replace).  But most people are very poor 
money managers. :-)

>> types of "secured" credit cards (where you pay money as a security
>> deposit and then your limit is set to what you put down as a deposit).
> 
> The quotes shouldn't be around "secured" but around "credit" there. It
> isn't a credit card if you're not borrowing the money.

True....

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> True.  I know that some loans do prohibit certain uses of the money,

The only restrictions I've ever seen are for gambling (which is more a 
legal restriction) and for paying a "down payment" (because, you know, 
the point of the down payment is it's the part you didn't borrow).

> Of course.  Most people find it difficult to save up the $14K that we had 
> to spend (total tear-off and replace).  But most people are very poor 
> money managers. :-)

Depends how much you make, too, I guess. I'm pretty conservative with 
savings.

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
  Ever notice how people in a zombie movie never already know how to
  kill zombies? Ask 100 random people in America how to kill someone
  who has reanimated from the dead in a secret viral weapons lab,
  and how many do you think already know you need a head-shot?

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 11:56:57 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> True.  I know that some loans do prohibit certain uses of the money,
> 
> The only restrictions I've ever seen are for gambling (which is more a
> legal restriction) and for paying a "down payment" (because, you know,
> the point of the down payment is it's the part you didn't borrow).

I vaguely recall seeing something about investing in one set of paperwork 
I looked at (not the one we agreed to).

>> Of course.  Most people find it difficult to save up the $14K that we
>> had to spend (total tear-off and replace).  But most people are very
>> poor money managers. :-)
> 
> Depends how much you make, too, I guess. I'm pretty conservative with
> savings.

Yeah, we tend to run closer to the edge than I'd like.  Part of the 
challenge is when you make the transition from "not making much" to 
"making enough to save some" is that you've got to pay off what you've 
borrowed while in the "not making much" phase.  Many people (myself 
included) don't learn until after you get to the "making enough to save 
some" how to really manage money.

Money management is something that I think *should* be taught in school, 
though - there are so many "life skills" that kids coming out of high 
school (or college for that matter) don't have but should; that's one of 
them.

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> Money management is something that I think *should* be taught in school, 

Yeah. I never understood why "home economics" never taught any economics.

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
  Ever notice how people in a zombie movie never already know how to
  kill zombies? Ask 100 random people in America how to kill someone
  who has reanimated from the dead in a secret viral weapons lab,
  and how many do you think already know you need a head-shot?

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 12:50:09 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Money management is something that I think *should* be taught in
>> school,
> 
> Yeah. I never understood why "home economics" never taught any
> economics.

LOL, you know, I never thought of it that way, but you're right....

Cooking and sewing on buttons are useful skills, but only if you can 
afford the equipment for either of those activities. :-)

Money management definitely should fall in there somewhere.  How to 
balance a checkbook, schedule payments, do financial planning, set goals 
and figure out how to meet them.....I'm sure there are others.

Jim

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"Darren New" <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote in message 
news:489b415e@news.povray.org...
> St. wrote:
>>  That's exactly what I do. I hope they never get rid of cash,
>
> They can't. There's huge portions of the economy that are actually 
> black-market. :-)
>
> Alternately, they already have. There's no cash left. All that's left is 
> debt and federal reserve notes.

 OMG. Don't start me on that side of it. I heard the other day that a 
payment for your old car to be scrapped might be introduced here. (Remember 
my post?) I don't want to drive around in an electric matchbox! I will sit 
at home instead and do everything on the internet, and get fat, costing our 
lovely National Health a whole lot more money until I die... :o/

   Damn, this world is... ******

   ~Steve~



>
> -- 
> Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
>  Ever notice how people in a zombie movie never already know how to
>  kill zombies? Ask 100 random people in America how to kill someone
>  who has reanimated from the dead in a secret viral weapons lab,
>  and how many do you think already know you need a head-shot?

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"Darren New" <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote in message 
news:489b51f0$1@news.povray.org...
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Money management is something that I think *should* be taught in school,
>
> Yeah. I never understood why "home economics" never taught any economics.

     Heh, they did in our school: Beans on toast or cheese straws.

     ("Home Economics" was our cooking lessons which they don't have now).

        Yes, I had to wear a pinny too...  O-O

       ~Steve~


>
> -- 
> Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
>  Ever notice how people in a zombie movie never already know how to
>  kill zombies? Ask 100 random people in America how to kill someone
>  who has reanimated from the dead in a secret viral weapons lab,
>  and how many do you think already know you need a head-shot?

Post a reply to this message

Phil Cook wrote:

> 
> Eh? You mean where I monitor bills and credit card statements as one  
> combined outgoing prior to payment dates and ensure that funds exist  
> within the bank account to deal with them in advance such that going on  
> holiday for a fortnight and not being able to get to the bills doesn't  
> mean me returning to invoice plus reminder plus reminder plus 
> threatening  letter; that sort of maturity?

Yep.


> 
> That's the bizarreness so you buy something on CC for $40 then when it  
> comes to pay you send them $50 so you have positive $10? The only way I  
> see this as a good thing is if the credit card pays interest on the  
> amount, which I know some do, but in that instance they wouldn't be  
> refunding it to you so why do it?
> 

More like: keep +$400 in the account.  I know I'm going to go down to 
Circuit City to buy a $59 router.  So I transfer $60 in before I go. 
While I'm there I remember I needed some toner for the printer. $70.  So 
I pickup the router and the toner on the card.  I come home.  No 
worries, the router and the toner is covered, so is the $40 of groceries 
and $75 gas that I charged and for got about.  In a coupla weeks I 
notice all the activity warnings in the bank folder on my e-mail and I'm 
waiting for a scene to render anyway, so I pop a couple open and notice 
that my +ve balance is down to +$316.  I check the activity and see all 
is okay.  I post transfer of say, $100, into the account. Meanwhile the 
recurring topup charge I set up for my daughter's cell phone is never 
going to fail.

I'll admit that maybe it's bizarre but what am I *so* guilty of?  Maybe 
of being a bit neurotic, maybe of just thinking in a different way? It 
keeps the money more tangible to me. The monthly due-date lockstep just 
trips me up that's all.

-Jim

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St. wrote:
>      ("Home Economics" was our cooking lessons which they don't have now).

Actually, I dated someone who took "Home Economics" as a college-level 
course. (She was studying to be a grade-school teacher, so it probably 
wasn't as lame as it sounds.)  There they actually taught things like 
how to examine clothes in the store to determine how well made they are 
and such. Sorta like economics.

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
  Ever notice how people in a zombie movie never already know how to
  kill zombies? Ask 100 random people in America how to kill someone
  who has reanimated from the dead in a secret viral weapons lab,
  and how many do you think already know you need a head-shot?

Post a reply to this message

Jim Charter wrote:
> I'll admit that maybe it's bizarre but what am I *so* guilty of? 

I don't think anyone is accusing you of being guilty of anything. I'm 
just wondering, if that's how you're trying to use a "credit" card, why 
you don't switch to a debit card. That's what they're for.

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
  Ever notice how people in a zombie movie never already know how to
  kill zombies? Ask 100 random people in America how to kill someone
  who has reanimated from the dead in a secret viral weapons lab,
  and how many do you think already know you need a head-shot?

Post a reply to this message

Jim Charter wrote:
> Yeah I guess.  But that's the reason?  Since it's called a credit card 
> account I can't keep a positive balance as a buffer?

That would defeat the point of it.  As a "credit" card, it's a line of 
credit to you.  That is, a loan for you to access.  What you're trying 
to do is make payments on money you haven't borrowed yet.

Sounds to me like you'd be just fine with a debit card.  Rather than 
drawing against a line of credit (and thus increasing your debt every 
time you use it), a debit card draws against the balance in a checking 
account (reducing your capital instead).

...Chambers

Post a reply to this message

Jim Charter wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
> 
>>
>> More specifically, see what your grace period is and what your monthly 
>> billing date is. Sign up for on-line bill paying at your bank. 
>> Complain at them if it isn't free, or at least if it costs more than a 
>> stamp.
> 
> 
> Yes I have to understand this grace period concept better.  I was under 
> the impression that at say midnight of the day of the due date which is 
> I think the 15th of the month, if I happened to have an amount owed 
> showing, then I would be charged interest.

I believe it's a law in the US that you have at least one billing cycle 
before interest is charged.  That is, if your bill comes every 30 days, 
then they can't charge interest on something until 30 days after you've 
charged it, no matter when your bill comes.

That's why so many people don't care about the interest rate on their 
credit card: they pay off the balance every cycle, so they never get 
charged any interest :)

...Chambers

Post a reply to this message

And lo on Thu, 07 Aug 2008 17:50:18 +0100, Jim Henderson  
<nos### [at] nospamcom> did spake, saying:

> On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 14:28:52 +0100, Phil Cook wrote:
>
>>>>  Same thing with the majority of utility bills - the invoice comes
>>>> through  and the payment drawn a few days later. In some case they'll
>>>> charge you an  'admin' fee for not doing it this way.
>>>>
>>> Yeah, I might try and get organized enough to try something like that.
>>> At least for bills.  I didn't know you could do it for credit card.
>>
>> Well you can in the UK
>
> You can with some cards in the US as well.  We do autopay for nearly
> everything (but we also look at the bills closely, too)

Well yeah, I don't understand people who don't bother.

> Got hung up *once* with this because the payment I put in ended up being
> less than the minimum (had to get the brakes done on the car - and we
> used the wrong card) and I got a call from their collections department
> the *day* after the bill was due.  We got them to reverse the late fee
> and reinstate the 0% transfer balance, but it was really surprising they
> turned it over to collections so quickly.  Discover Financial apparently
> is struggling.

Well the setup on my credit card is that the full amount is taken  
automatically unless I change it, but I could set it up to take the  
minimum only; again unless I change it. The only account I then have to  
monitor money-wise is my bank-account.

> (Of course you wouldn't know anything about them in the UK, since
> virtually nobody accepts them over there)

Who now? :-) It's Visa and Mastercard here (for credit cards), unless it's  
somewhere fancy that'll accept Amex. Heh read a piece from Amex justifying  
their higher-then-others transaction charges, people with Amex spend more  
so you make more profit then the el-cheapo cards; to put it another way  
rich people use Amex so let them do so at your store. To put it yet  
another way if you see a store accepting Amex expect all the prices to be  
double :-P

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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And lo on Fri, 08 Aug 2008 00:37:02 +0100, Jim Charter <jrc### [at] msncom>  
did spake, saying:

> Phil Cook wrote:
>
>>  that sort of maturity?
>
> Yep.

Well that's okay then ;-)

>>  That's the bizarreness so you buy something on CC for $40 then when  
>> it  comes to pay you send them $50 so you have positive $10? The only  
>> way I  see this as a good thing is if the credit card pays interest on  
>> the  amount, which I know some do, but in that instance they wouldn't  
>> be  refunding it to you so why do it?
>>
>
> More like: keep +$400 in the account.

But you're not getting any interest on this money, as Darren said if  
you're going to do this you might as well have a debit card which  
shouldn't have any fees at all and pays you interest for a positive  
balance.

> I'll admit that maybe it's bizarre but what am I *so* guilty of?  Maybe  
> of being a bit neurotic, maybe of just thinking in a different way? It  
> keeps the money more tangible to me. The monthly due-date lockstep just  
> trips me up that's all.

You're guilty of being bizzarre, which if it were a crime would mean I  
(and the vast majority) would be locked up with you.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

Post a reply to this message

Phil Cook wrote:

>> Phil Cook wrote:

> 
> But you're not getting any interest on this money, as Darren said if  
> you're going to do this you might as well have a debit card which  
> shouldn't have any fees at all and pays you interest for a positive  
> balance.
> 

Something to check into also.  I was under the impression they charged a 
fee per use.  I do use it on occasion.  Never really confirmed if a fee 
was charged.

Post a reply to this message

Phil Cook wrote:

> 
> You're guilty of being bizzarre, which if it were a crime would mean I  
> (and the vast majority) would be locked up with you.
> 

As you get older you get comfortable with it I guess.  Another 'buffer' 
situation for me involves the need to take a 'till' with me when I am 
driving the taxi.  When I first started I got caught unable to make 
change a couple of times.  This situation I found embarrassing even 
humiliating.  So I began to hoard 10's, 5's, and singles.  Now I have a 
'buffer' well in excess of 150 $10's, 200 $5's, and 500 singles, 
jacketed and hoarded away in a box.  I am finally comfortable and pay 
less attention to the problem and no longer aggressively hoard. For 
instance now at the end of a shift I will deposit my receipts across all 
denominations instead of just the $20's.  But the funny thing is, 
certain techniques and disciplines I developed during my hoarding phase 
became so integrated with my daily life that I continue them anyway.  In 
fact I now have to consciously 'prune' my hoard down from time to time.

Post a reply to this message

And lo on Fri, 08 Aug 2008 11:33:15 +0100, Jim Charter <jrc### [at] msncom>  
did spake, saying:

> Phil Cook wrote:
>
>>> Phil Cook wrote:
>
>>  But you're not getting any interest on this money, as Darren said if   
>> you're going to do this you might as well have a debit card which   
>> shouldn't have any fees at all and pays you interest for a positive   
>> balance.
>>
>
> Something to check into also.  I was under the impression they charged a  
> fee per use.  I do use it on occasion.  Never really confirmed if a fee  
> was charged.

The only time we in the UK tend to get charges is if we use our debit  
cards abroad, saying that though some banks are advertising the fact that  
they don't do this

>>  You're guilty of being bizzarre, which if it were a crime would mean  
>> I  (and the vast majority) would be locked up with you.
>
> As you get older you get comfortable with it I guess.  Another 'buffer'  
> situation for me involves the need to take a 'till' with me when I am  
> driving the taxi.  When I first started I got caught unable to make  
> change a couple of times.  This situation I found embarrassing even  
> humiliating.  So I began to hoard 10's, 5's, and singles.  Now I have a  
> 'buffer' well in excess of 150 $10's, 200 $5's, and 500 singles,  
> jacketed and hoarded away in a box.  I am finally comfortable and pay  
> less attention to the problem and no longer aggressively hoard. For  
> instance now at the end of a shift I will deposit my receipts across all  
> denominations instead of just the $20's.  But the funny thing is,  
> certain techniques and disciplines I developed during my hoarding phase  
> became so integrated with my daily life that I continue them anyway.  In  
> fact I now have to consciously 'prune' my hoard down from time to time.

Just the way we work; we do something out of neccesity, repeat it, and  
then find it turns to habit and we keep doing it long after the cause has  
passed. I suppose it's the potential in the neural pathways, just easier  
to follow the groove.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 08 Aug 2008 00:12:48 +0100, St. wrote:

>      Heh, they did in our school: Beans on toast or cheese straws.
> 
>      ("Home Economics" was our cooking lessons which they don't have
>      now).

They did when I was in middle school as well (well, it wasn't called 
"middle school" when I went through it).  We had sewing and cooking 
classes.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 08 Aug 2008 09:16:30 +0100, Phil Cook wrote:

>> You can with some cards in the US as well.  We do autopay for nearly
>> everything (but we also look at the bills closely, too)
> 
> Well yeah, I don't understand people who don't bother.

I think it's a matter of trust - I can understand that.  It's also (for 
us) a matter of checking the bills out carefully before autopay goes 
through.  Some things, though, like the mortgage payment, we know the 
amount that it should be so if it varies that raises a red flag for us.  
(And it hasn't varied).

>> Got hung up *once* with this because the payment I put in ended up
>> being less than the minimum (had to get the brakes done on the car -
>> and we used the wrong card) and I got a call from their collections
>> department the *day* after the bill was due.  We got them to reverse
>> the late fee and reinstate the 0% transfer balance, but it was really
>> surprising they turned it over to collections so quickly.  Discover
>> Financial apparently is struggling.
> 
> Well the setup on my credit card is that the full amount is taken
> automatically unless I change it, but I could set it up to take the
> minimum only; again unless I change it. The only account I then have to
> monitor money-wise is my bank-account.

Yeah, if we were to do that, we'd bounce payments at the moment.  My 
parents worked things like you do, though - pay it off every month.  
AFAIK, my mom still does that.

>> (Of course you wouldn't know anything about them in the UK, since
>> virtually nobody accepts them over there)
> 
> Who now? :-) It's Visa and Mastercard here (for credit cards), unless
> it's somewhere fancy that'll accept Amex. Heh read a piece from Amex
> justifying their higher-then-others transaction charges, people with
> Amex spend more so you make more profit then the el-cheapo cards; to put
> it another way rich people use Amex so let them do so at your store. To
> put it yet another way if you see a store accepting Amex expect all the
> prices to be double :-P

Yeah, like I said. :-)

We did get an Amex card - I use it to the tune of a whopping $11.99 per 
month for a credit monitoring service (which is handy as well, because 
that tells me if anything hokey goes on in my accounts).  But the reason 
we got it was so we could establish some form of credit that would be 
accepted when we move to the UK.  Our Visa/Mastercard cards are usable 
over there, sure, but from the research my wife did, if we want to open a 
bank account, it's easier if we have an Amex account to show good payment 
history.  I don't recall all the details on why this worked better, 
though.

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> So, for example, on one of my Discover cards (don't ask - long story), 
> I've got a 0% transfer rate, but I have to use the card twice a month to 
> keep the 0% rate on what was transferred.  But I get hit at something 
> like 14% on those two usages, and those two usages continue to accrue 
> interest until the 0% amount is paid off.

I'd recommend you check with a local Credit Union about getting a new 
card; those terms are horrible.

Alternatively, if you live in WA, OR, ID or CA you can get a card at 
Sterling Savings Bank with pretty good terms, as well.

...Chambers

Post a reply to this message

Darren New wrote:
> I always liked the ads that come with those checks: "Cash some in and 
> spend it on fun stuff, or pay off bills, or just put it in the bank for 
> a rainy day!"  Yeah, right.

If you bring it to our bank, we'll ask you to take it somewhere else :) 
  Of the three banks I've worked at, two of them wouldn't ever accept a 
CC check.

...Chambers

Post a reply to this message

Darren New wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Well, with the debit card, you've got a PIN associated with it, so I 
>> don't quite understand the issue there.
> 
> Not the ones that work just like a credit card, AFAIK. In any case, the 
> legal system distinguishes.  If someone's going to steal money, I want 
> it to be the bank's money, with them proving I owe it to them, rather 
> than my money, with me proving to the bank they need to give it back.
> 

Just for the record, I help people with fraudulent use all the time, and 
at least the bank I work at is pretty good about giving people 
provisional credit*.  They'll usually get it in less than 48 hours.

*That is, we assume that when you fill out a fraud report you're telling 
the truth, so we deposit the missing money to your account.  Once we've 
finished our investigation, we either take the money back from you (if 
you were just trying to work the system), or pursue it from the 
criminals (if you were telling the truth).  In practice, the system 
works rather well.  The only people I've ever heard complain about it 
are the ones we proved were lying about the fraud.

...Chambers

Post a reply to this message

Chambers wrote:
> If you bring it to our bank, we'll ask you to take it somewhere else :) 
>  Of the three banks I've worked at, two of them wouldn't ever accept a 
> CC check.

No, of course not. For the same reason I won't accept a debit card from 
a bank that looks like a credit card. :-)

They're SOL if they take the "check" and then you reverse the charges.

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
  Ever notice how people in a zombie movie never already know how to
  kill zombies? Ask 100 random people in America how to kill someone
  who has reanimated from the dead in a secret viral weapons lab,
  and how many do you think already know you need a head-shot?

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 08 Aug 2008 11:03:58 -0700, Chambers wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> So, for example, on one of my Discover cards (don't ask - long story),
>> I've got a 0% transfer rate, but I have to use the card twice a month
>> to keep the 0% rate on what was transferred.  But I get hit at
>> something like 14% on those two usages, and those two usages continue
>> to accrue interest until the 0% amount is paid off.
> 
> I'd recommend you check with a local Credit Union about getting a new
> card; those terms are horrible.
> 
> Alternatively, if you live in WA, OR, ID or CA you can get a card at
> Sterling Savings Bank with pretty good terms, as well.

Oh, I've got terms on other cards that are better.  We've more or less 
decided to transfer the balance when the next good offer comes along.

Jim

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St. wrote:
> I hope they never get rid of cash

I hope they *do*!  At least, I think we should do away with paper 
currency.  Use coins if you need to carry something around, but anything 
more than a few dollars should be electronic.

Of course, I also think commercial banks and the Federal Reserve should 
run 24/7 (and yes, I'm willing to work odd shifts due to that 
scheduling).  But for some reason, Bernanke hasn't called to ask my 
advice yet, so they're still on the 9-5 business day...

...Chambers

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Chambers wrote:
> I hope they *do*!  At least, I think we should do away with paper 
> currency.

Why?  So that you can be an Enemy Combatant and completely dicked over 
by the government without even the slightest chance of being able to 
hire a lawyer after?

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
  Ever notice how people in a zombie movie never already know how to
  kill zombies? Ask 100 random people in America how to kill someone
  who has reanimated from the dead in a secret viral weapons lab,
  and how many do you think already know you need a head-shot?

Post a reply to this message

Darren New wrote:
> Depends how much you make, too, I guess. I'm pretty conservative with 
> savings.

	I'm having trouble parsing that...<G>

-- 
Aibohphobia: Fear of palindromes.


                     /\  /\               /\  /
                    /  \/  \ u e e n     /  \/  a w a z
                        >>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
                                    anl

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Darren New wrote:
> Chambers wrote:
>> I hope they *do*!  At least, I think we should do away with paper 
>> currency.
> 
> Why?  So that you can be an Enemy Combatant and completely dicked over 
> by the government without even the slightest chance of being able to 
> hire a lawyer after?
> 

No, because paper money is filthy.  Have you any idea the sheer number 
of germs that are transmitted with paper money?  Coins are much cleaner.

Besides, one of the purposes of government is to protect property.  If 
they were really as malicious as you're afraid of them being, the 
revolution would come.

...Chambers

Post a reply to this message

Chambers wrote:
> No, because paper money is filthy. 

Well, there is that. That's why I wash my hands after handling it.

> Besides, one of the purposes of government is to protect property.

Only some governments.

> If 
> they were really as malicious as you're afraid of them being, the 
> revolution would come.

Sure, just like Zimbabwe, right? Or (Godwin forbid) the victims of the 
Holocaust who were clearly defended by the uprising of the majority of 
the people involved at the time. (I.e., history suggests you're wrong.)

You only get the revolution if enough people with power are actually 
getting screwed over. If you keep it down to maybe 5% of the population, 
or keep it up to 95% of the population, you don't really get a very good 
revolution.

But if you want to, say, shut up anyone who suggests that the government 
could be improved by getting rid of the people currently in charge, 
being able to take all their money away as well as track everyone who 
ever gives them any money at all, well that's certainly a bonus.

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
  Ever notice how people in a zombie movie never already know how to
  kill zombies? Ask 100 random people in America how to kill someone
  who has reanimated from the dead in a secret viral weapons lab,
  and how many do you think already know you need a head-shot?

Post a reply to this message

Darren New wrote:
> But if you want to, say, shut up anyone who suggests that the government 
> could be improved by getting rid of the people currently in charge, 
> being able to take all their money away as well as track everyone who 
> ever gives them any money at all, well that's certainly a bonus.

Money is an imaginary concept anyway.  Do you really think that you 
physically have all the money in your bank account?  It already exists 
solely in the form of a number in a computer somewhere (well, ok, a 
number in *several* computers, thanks to redundancy :) ), so what's the 
difference between the 1% of your net worth you carry with you being 
cash versus some form of electronic payment?

...Chambers

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