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I want to pay my dues as a supporter of tiritiri matangi
(http://www.tiritirimatangi.org.nz/) What would be a secure way to do
that? Given that I am not in the same country and they are not big
enough to have a secure payment by internet.
It is my impression that e-mailing credit card info is not really save.
- They suggest e-mailing the expiry info separately. It may help but not
much, I guess.
- Will breaking the credicard number in two for separate e-mails or
adding letters in between or something like that help more (packet
sniffing will not find 16 consecutive numbers that conform to a pattern).
- Is it really not possible to have secure credit card payment for small
groups? They do have a shop on the island and you can order
internationally by internet.
- They mention 'Direct Credit / Internet Banking' with an account
number. I have not heard of that before. They don't mention the name of
the bank. So do I have to ask for more info?
- any other options or suggestions?
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Do it as a wire transfer; if you have a local Western Union office (or
something equivalent) that would be the way to go.
I wouldn't send the info in the clear over the 'net ever.
Another possible option would be to use encrypted e-mail, but you (and
they) would need to set up for that in advance.
Jim
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On 22-Jul-08 22:06, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Do it as a wire transfer; if you have a local Western Union office (or
> something equivalent) that would be the way to go.
I think I'll need the bank's info for that too.
> I wouldn't send the info in the clear over the 'net ever.
>
> Another possible option would be to use encrypted e-mail, but you (and
> they) would need to set up for that in advance.
>
A previous time I set up a html file with part of the info on my own
server. After I saw that it was accessed I removed it. Still not totally
safe and I shut down my server here in the attic.
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andrel wrote:
>
> - They mention 'Direct Credit / Internet Banking' with an account
> number. I have not heard of that before. They don't mention the name of
> the bank. So do I have to ask for more info?
>
I would write this account number (and possibly other information, if I
actually got some) down, head to my local bank and ask them how to do
the transfer. Most probably they would print me out a international cash
movement paper to sign and it would cost some extra, but if the bank
says it's safe and is ready to take responsibility of those words, I'd
count on them.
--
Eero "Aero" Ahonen
http://www.zbxt.net
aer### [at] removethis zbxtnetinvalid
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On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:17:40 +0200, andrel wrote:
> On 22-Jul-08 22:06, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Do it as a wire transfer; if you have a local Western Union office (or
>> something equivalent) that would be the way to go.
>
> I think I'll need the bank's info for that too.
Depends on how it's done - electronic money order may only need the
target organisation. You may be able to use a routing number for the
bank (which is public info anyway) and the account holder's name. You'll
need your bank's info, of course, but that's also easily obtained.
>> I wouldn't send the info in the clear over the 'net ever.
>>
>> Another possible option would be to use encrypted e-mail, but you (and
>> they) would need to set up for that in advance.
>>
> A previous time I set up a html file with part of the info on my own
> server. After I saw that it was accessed I removed it. Still not totally
> safe and I shut down my server here in the attic.
Yeah, I don't know that I'd do that either - if someone happens to find
the URL and reads it who isn't who you intended, the info is then out in
the wild.
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On 22-Jul-08 22:37, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> A previous time I set up a html file with part of the info on my own
>> server. After I saw that it was accessed I removed it. Still not totally
>> safe and I shut down my server here in the attic.
>
> Yeah, I don't know that I'd do that either - if someone happens to find
> the URL and reads it who isn't who you intended, the info is then out in
> the wild.
I know it was accessed only once. And it contained half the info. The
only way to sniff it would be to sniff both the e-mail and the html
transfer. Still doable if you really want to, but I though it was safe
enough. But only just.
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On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 23:09:22 +0200, andrel wrote:
> On 22-Jul-08 22:37, Jim Henderson wrote:
>
>>> A previous time I set up a html file with part of the info on my own
>>> server. After I saw that it was accessed I removed it. Still not
>>> totally safe and I shut down my server here in the attic.
>>
>> Yeah, I don't know that I'd do that either - if someone happens to find
>> the URL and reads it who isn't who you intended, the info is then out
>> in the wild.
>
> I know it was accessed only once. And it contained half the info. The
> only way to sniff it would be to sniff both the e-mail and the html
> transfer. Still doable if you really want to, but I though it was safe
> enough. But only just.
In a way, it's kinda funny; many people (myself included) are much more
paranoid about disclosing this info online than in a shop, yet
(particularly if the shop has an old-style credit-card imprint machine)
the cashier in the shop is usually high-school or college age, often has
access to the records after hours, and all the information is on the
slip. The advent of CCV2 numbers on cards (at least here in the US)
would be a deterrent, but it's not inconceivable that they could get the
info off the card fairly easily - just takes a pad of paper and
reasonable short-term memory (to wait for the customer to leave the
store).
Jim
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On 22-Jul-08 23:48, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 23:09:22 +0200, andrel wrote:
>
>> On 22-Jul-08 22:37, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>
>>>> A previous time I set up a html file with part of the info on my own
>>>> server. After I saw that it was accessed I removed it. Still not
>>>> totally safe and I shut down my server here in the attic.
>>> Yeah, I don't know that I'd do that either - if someone happens to find
>>> the URL and reads it who isn't who you intended, the info is then out
>>> in the wild.
>> I know it was accessed only once. And it contained half the info. The
>> only way to sniff it would be to sniff both the e-mail and the html
>> transfer. Still doable if you really want to, but I though it was safe
>> enough. But only just.
>
> In a way, it's kinda funny; many people (myself included) are much more
> paranoid about disclosing this info online than in a shop, yet
> (particularly if the shop has an old-style credit-card imprint machine)
> the cashier in the shop is usually high-school or college age, often has
> access to the records after hours, and all the information is on the
> slip. The advent of CCV2 numbers on cards (at least here in the US)
> would be a deterrent, but it's not inconceivable that they could get the
> info off the card fairly easily - just takes a pad of paper and
> reasonable short-term memory (to wait for the customer to leave the
> store).
>
Sure, but in most cases when multiple cards are misused you can trace it
back to one or more stores if that happens. With e-mail it can happen
anywhere. I guess that whatever I write to these guys in NZ my mail will
pass through the US at some point and at least their security service
will scan it for tell tale words. When I'd fly to the US they also want
my recent credit card info, so I assume they also filter those numbers
out from e-mails that happen to pass through their territory. Actually
they would do that even for e-mails that never reach the US. And so
would the dutch and the sovjet intelligence services.
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On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 00:01:43 +0200, andrel wrote:
> Sure, but in most cases when multiple cards are misused you can trace it
> back to one or more stores if that happens. With e-mail it can happen
> anywhere. I guess that whatever I write to these guys in NZ my mail will
> pass through the US at some point and at least their security service
> will scan it for tell tale words. When I'd fly to the US they also want
> my recent credit card info, so I assume they also filter those numbers
> out from e-mails that happen to pass through their territory. Actually
> they would do that even for e-mails that never reach the US. And so
> would the dutch and the sovjet intelligence services.
Huh? Our border folks ask for *credit card info* upon entry to the US?
That's news to me....But I always go through the "citizens" line, so I'm
not as familiar with what the process is for non-citizens.
But it's not so much about the security services - it's about the thieves
who use the information for their own ends.
Jim
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On 23-Jul-08 0:46, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 00:01:43 +0200, andrel wrote:
>
>> Sure, but in most cases when multiple cards are misused you can trace it
>> back to one or more stores if that happens. With e-mail it can happen
>> anywhere. I guess that whatever I write to these guys in NZ my mail will
>> pass through the US at some point and at least their security service
>> will scan it for tell tale words. When I'd fly to the US they also want
>> my recent credit card info, so I assume they also filter those numbers
>> out from e-mails that happen to pass through their territory. Actually
>> they would do that even for e-mails that never reach the US. And so
>> would the dutch and the sovjet intelligence services.
>
> Huh? Our border folks ask for *credit card info* upon entry to the US?
> That's news to me....But I always go through the "citizens" line, so I'm
> not as familiar with what the process is for non-citizens.
What they want to know is what credit cards you have and what you bought
from who. Just to make sure you don't have financial relations with
extremists of a religion other than the dominant one in the US. Or so
they say. You don't have to provide that yourself upon entry. Your
airline has to provide part of it and the banks have to provide the rest
and that is all before you are actually in the states. I don't know the
exact details, these are in treaties between the US and the EU. I can
only assume the EU signed that out of free will and that all details are
public.
> But it's not so much about the security services - it's about the thieves
> who use the information for their own ends.
I know, just making the point that if you exchange credit card info by
e-mail, someone is probably aware of that. And that hacking some
machines in the US (and elsewhere) may provide you with credit card info
from a substantial group of people.
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> - They mention 'Direct Credit / Internet Banking' with an account number.
> I have not heard of that before. They don't mention the name of the bank.
> So do I have to ask for more info?
DO you have internet banking? DOes it allow you to make payments abroad?
If not then just take the above information to your bank and say you want to
make a transfer. You might not need the name of the bank, or at least it
can be looked up from the info provided.
> - any other options or suggestions?
Suggest they get a PayPal account?
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> Sure, but in most cases when multiple cards are misused you can trace it
> back to one or more stores if that happens.
Unless the store never puts through the orders on the cards they steal.
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> Huh? Our border folks ask for *credit card info* upon entry to the US?
> That's news to me....But I always go through the "citizens" line, so I'm
> not as familiar with what the process is for non-citizens.
Citizens of some countries (now all except for a few?) are required to
go through what was once called "special registration" when they enter
the US. You know - that program they started in 2002 to register all
non-permanent residents of certain countries residing in the US?
Offshoot of that. Credit card info was very often asked in those
sessions. I haven't asked anyone whose come in recently, but it wouldn't
surprise me if they still ask that often.
--
----> If you cut here, you'll ruin your monitor. <----
/\ /\ /\ /
/ \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z
>>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
anl
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On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:37:29 +0200, scott wrote:
>> Sure, but in most cases when multiple cards are misused you can trace
>> it back to one or more stores if that happens.
>
> Unless the store never puts through the orders on the cards they steal.
That's true, but the store would have to be complicit as well, then - or
there'd be serious underages in sales and problems with inventory
reconciliation.
Jim
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On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:19:00 +0200, andrel wrote:
> On 23-Jul-08 0:46, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 00:01:43 +0200, andrel wrote:
>>
>>> Sure, but in most cases when multiple cards are misused you can trace
>>> it back to one or more stores if that happens. With e-mail it can
>>> happen anywhere. I guess that whatever I write to these guys in NZ my
>>> mail will pass through the US at some point and at least their
>>> security service will scan it for tell tale words. When I'd fly to the
>>> US they also want my recent credit card info, so I assume they also
>>> filter those numbers out from e-mails that happen to pass through
>>> their territory. Actually they would do that even for e-mails that
>>> never reach the US. And so would the dutch and the sovjet intelligence
>>> services.
>>
>> Huh? Our border folks ask for *credit card info* upon entry to the US?
>> That's news to me....But I always go through the "citizens" line, so
>> I'm not as familiar with what the process is for non-citizens.
>
> What they want to know is what credit cards you have and what you bought
> from who. Just to make sure you don't have financial relations with
> extremists of a religion other than the dominant one in the US. Or so
> they say. You don't have to provide that yourself upon entry. Your
> airline has to provide part of it and the banks have to provide the rest
> and that is all before you are actually in the states. I don't know the
> exact details, these are in treaties between the US and the EU. I can
> only assume the EU signed that out of free will and that all details are
> public.
Wow, I never realized it was that bad. I knew about the fingerprinting
and whatnot you go through entering the country, but not about that
banking stuff on the backend.
>> But it's not so much about the security services - it's about the
>> thieves who use the information for their own ends.
>
> I know, just making the point that if you exchange credit card info by
> e-mail, someone is probably aware of that. And that hacking some
> machines in the US (and elsewhere) may provide you with credit card info
> from a substantial group of people.
Oh, I see.
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On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:40:09 -0500, Mueen Nawaz wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Huh? Our border folks ask for *credit card info* upon entry to the US?
>> That's news to me....But I always go through the "citizens" line, so
>> I'm not as familiar with what the process is for non-citizens.
>
> Citizens of some countries (now all except for a few?) are
required to
> go through what was once called "special registration" when they enter
> the US. You know - that program they started in 2002 to register all
> non-permanent residents of certain countries residing in the US?
> Offshoot of that. Credit card info was very often asked in those
> sessions. I haven't asked anyone whose come in recently, but it wouldn't
> surprise me if they still ask that often.
Ah, I see - I hadn't heard of that before, at least not in this context.
Is this what's called the "Visa waiver program"?
Jim
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On 23-Jul-08 21:54, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:40:09 -0500, Mueen Nawaz wrote:
>
>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> Huh? Our border folks ask for *credit card info* upon entry to the US?
>>> That's news to me....But I always go through the "citizens" line, so
>>> I'm not as familiar with what the process is for non-citizens.
>> Citizens of some countries (now all except for a few?) are
> required to
>> go through what was once called "special registration" when they enter
>> the US. You know - that program they started in 2002 to register all
>> non-permanent residents of certain countries residing in the US?
>> Offshoot of that. Credit card info was very often asked in those
>> sessions. I haven't asked anyone whose come in recently, but it wouldn't
>> surprise me if they still ask that often.
>
> Ah, I see - I hadn't heard of that before, at least not in this context.
> Is this what's called the "Visa waiver program"?
LOL, no, but it could be.
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On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:57:24 +0200, andrel wrote:
> On 23-Jul-08 21:54, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:40:09 -0500, Mueen Nawaz wrote:
>>
>>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>> Huh? Our border folks ask for *credit card info* upon entry to the
>>>> US? That's news to me....But I always go through the "citizens" line,
>>>> so I'm not as familiar with what the process is for non-citizens.
>>> Citizens of some countries (now all except for a few?) are
>> required to
>>> go through what was once called "special registration" when they enter
>>> the US. You know - that program they started in 2002 to register all
>>> non-permanent residents of certain countries residing in the US?
>>> Offshoot of that. Credit card info was very often asked in those
>>> sessions. I haven't asked anyone whose come in recently, but it
>>> wouldn't surprise me if they still ask that often.
>>
>> Ah, I see - I hadn't heard of that before, at least not in this
>> context. Is this what's called the "Visa waiver program"?
>
> LOL, no, but it could be.
Who knows, maybe now TPTB have seen the suggestion and it'll show up next
year. You heard it here first - and from someone with absolutely nothing
to do with it. ;-)
Jim
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> Ah, I see - I hadn't heard of that before, at least not in this context.
> Is this what's called the "Visa waiver program"?
No. The original thing was "Special Registration":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Registration
The fingerprinting, picture taking, etc in the airports that you
alluded to in the other post began as part of that program. Every male
of a certain age range from those countries had to undergo that process
- although the officers were free to require anyone from other countries
to undergo it as well - as they saw fit. The announcement at the time
was that eventually they'd require it of all incoming non-permanent
residents - with a few exceptions (some or all EU countries, etc).
The domestic special registration ended a mere year later. They kept
the one at the ports. I don't know if they achieved the "goal" of
requiring it of all countries (with the exception of the few).
So it's during the very same fingerprinting session that they've often
asked for credit card info. Why miss out on an opportunity to monitor folks?
(Just bothered to read the Wikipedia entry. The current program is at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Visitor_and_Immigrant_Status_Indicator_Technology
Page claims it is now required of almost all countries (Canada being the
only exception?))
--
If you think nobody cares, try missing a couple of payments.
/\ /\ /\ /
/ \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z
>>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
anl
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:37:29 +0200, scott wrote:
>
>>> Sure, but in most cases when multiple cards are misused you can trace
>>> it back to one or more stores if that happens.
>> Unless the store never puts through the orders on the cards they steal.
>
> That's true, but the store would have to be complicit as well, then - or
> there'd be serious underages in sales and problems with inventory
> reconciliation.
>
> Jim
Swipe cards on fake reader, and store data on computer.
Tell customer that the machine is having problems, ask for cash instead.
As each card approaches it's exp date over the next year, use it for
single large purchase.
The store wouldn't have to be complicit, the clerk would just have to be
organized.
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>> Unless the store never puts through the orders on the cards they steal.
>
> That's true, but the store would have to be complicit as well, then - or
> there'd be serious underages in sales and problems with inventory
> reconciliation.
If it's a small 1-man-show store then that shouldn't be a problem.
Otherwise the "criminal" can just put cash in the register to avoid
detection.
I always wonder with those chip&pin boxes that everywhere has now (in the UK
and Germany at least), how do you ever know that the box is genuine? Makes
me feel like always deliberately typing in a wrong PIN number first time,
just to see if it correctly states it was wrong :-)
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On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:53:41 -0400, Sabrina Kilian wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:37:29 +0200, scott wrote:
>>
>>>> Sure, but in most cases when multiple cards are misused you can trace
>>>> it back to one or more stores if that happens.
>>> Unless the store never puts through the orders on the cards they
>>> steal.
>>
>> That's true, but the store would have to be complicit as well, then -
>> or there'd be serious underages in sales and problems with inventory
>> reconciliation.
>>
>> Jim
>
> Swipe cards on fake reader, and store data on computer. Tell customer
> that the machine is having problems, ask for cash instead. As each card
> approaches it's exp date over the next year, use it for single large
> purchase.
>
> The store wouldn't have to be complicit, the clerk would just have to be
> organized.
I don't know, if a customer didn't have cash with them, they'd not buy
the product, maybe come back later and complain to staff about the
earlier problem. That'd raise flags (once upon a time, I worked retail -
customers complain about the damnedest things).
Jim
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On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:17:59 +0200, scott wrote:
>>> Unless the store never puts through the orders on the cards they
>>> steal.
>>
>> That's true, but the store would have to be complicit as well, then -
>> or there'd be serious underages in sales and problems with inventory
>> reconciliation.
>
> If it's a small 1-man-show store then that shouldn't be a problem.
> Otherwise the "criminal" can just put cash in the register to avoid
> detection.
>
> I always wonder with those chip&pin boxes that everywhere has now (in
> the UK and Germany at least), how do you ever know that the box is
> genuine? Makes me feel like always deliberately typing in a wrong PIN
> number first time, just to see if it correctly states it was wrong :-)
Yeah, that could work, but I do think that if something like that
happened where the clerk swiped the card and then asked for cash, that'd
be a flag in my mind if fraud occurred; unless they delayed before using
the card info for several months.
Jim
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On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:44:48 -0500, Mueen Nawaz wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Ah, I see - I hadn't heard of that before, at least not in this
>> context. Is this what's called the "Visa waiver program"?
>
> No. The original thing was "Special Registration":
> [...]
Interesting, thanks for that info. This is one thing that it's hard (as
a US citizen) to have a perspective on the reality of, since we never are
subjected to that. I can understand why some countries are saying
"what's good for the goose" and implementing similar measures for US
citizens coming into their countries.
Jim
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And lo on Thu, 24 Jul 2008 01:44:48 +0100, Mueen Nawaz <m.n### [at] ieeeorg>
did spake, saying:
> So it's during the very same fingerprinting session that they've often
> asked for credit card info. Why miss out on an opportunity to monitor
> folks?
And just OOC what legal protection does this non-citizen data have in the
USA?
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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> Yeah, that could work, but I do think that if something like that
> happened where the clerk swiped the card and then asked for cash, that'd
> be a flag in my mind if fraud occurred; unless they delayed before using
> the card info for several months.
I meant the criminal puts in cash himself, not asking for it from the
customer. If he's about to go and get $500 from the cash machine or
whatever, I'm sure he can afford to put in $50 to make sure the books add up
;-)
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On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:18:18 +0200, scott wrote:
>> Yeah, that could work, but I do think that if something like that
>> happened where the clerk swiped the card and then asked for cash,
>> that'd be a flag in my mind if fraud occurred; unless they delayed
>> before using the card info for several months.
>
> I meant the criminal puts in cash himself, not asking for it from the
> customer. If he's about to go and get $500 from the cash machine or
> whatever, I'm sure he can afford to put in $50 to make sure the books
> add up ;-)
Of course, if he were to go straight to the cash machine, he'd actually
have to have the card (I don't think I've seen a cash machine anywhere
that didn't require that) and the PIN (which if the cust is doing a debit
could be captured, but it'd be very hard to say "oh, it didn't work"
convincingly, especially to customer after customer after customer
(depends on how busy the store is).
Jim
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Phil Cook wrote:
> And just OOC what legal protection does this non-citizen data have in
> the USA?
No idea. Perhaps the same amount of protection citizen data has. None?
Never thought about it. If they have any information of mine, I just
assume they'll use and abuse it, laws be damned.
--
Feet Smell? Nose Run? Hey, you're upside down!
/\ /\ /\ /
/ \/ \ u e e n / \/ a w a z
>>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
anl
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Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Swipe cards on fake reader, and store data on computer. Tell customer
>> that the machine is having problems, ask for cash instead. As each card
>> approaches it's exp date over the next year, use it for single large
>> purchase.
>>
>> The store wouldn't have to be complicit, the clerk would just have to be
>> organized.
>
> I don't know, if a customer didn't have cash with them, they'd not buy
> the product, maybe come back later and complain to staff about the
> earlier problem. That'd raise flags (once upon a time, I worked retail -
> customers complain about the damnedest things).
>
> Jim
Do it to the first customer every morning when you work at aisle X.
Check that the machine is always the same, switch routines when the boss
changes the machine. If all the clerks are in on it, have them do the
same. Make it a technical problem, not a human problem. By the time the
machines are replaced, you have the data and move on.
The other choice is one card, completely at random, and never copying
another again. Wait 6 months to a year (or more) to actually use it.
Sure, the customer gets a little annoyed and maybe watches their
statements for the next month or two. In a year, they will be watching
something else that annoyed them if they are that type. But, the price
is that any detailed analysis would show that all the victims had made a
purchase at 'S MART' in the last how ever many months.
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And lo on Fri, 25 Jul 2008 00:57:59 +0100, Mueen Nawaz <m.n### [at] ieeeorg>
did spake, saying:
> Phil Cook wrote:
>> And just OOC what legal protection does this non-citizen data have in
>> the USA?
>
> No idea. Perhaps the same amount of protection citizen data has. None?
> Never thought about it. If they have any information of mine, I just
> assume they'll use and abuse it, laws be damned.
Skimming through on this subject it appears that PDR data is held securely
and is accessible only to people with any form of tenuous link to the
government whatsoever.
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 06:29:41 -0400, Sabrina Kilian wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> Swipe cards on fake reader, and store data on computer. Tell customer
>>> that the machine is having problems, ask for cash instead. As each
>>> card approaches it's exp date over the next year, use it for single
>>> large purchase.
>>>
>>> The store wouldn't have to be complicit, the clerk would just have to
>>> be organized.
>>
>> I don't know, if a customer didn't have cash with them, they'd not buy
>> the product, maybe come back later and complain to staff about the
>> earlier problem. That'd raise flags (once upon a time, I worked retail
>> - customers complain about the damnedest things).
>>
>> Jim
>
> Do it to the first customer every morning when you work at aisle X.
> Check that the machine is always the same, switch routines when the boss
> changes the machine. If all the clerks are in on it, have them do the
> same. Make it a technical problem, not a human problem. By the time the
> machines are replaced, you have the data and move on.
>
> The other choice is one card, completely at random, and never copying
> another again. Wait 6 months to a year (or more) to actually use it.
>
> Sure, the customer gets a little annoyed and maybe watches their
> statements for the next month or two. In a year, they will be watching
> something else that annoyed them if they are that type. But, the price
> is that any detailed analysis would show that all the victims had made a
> purchase at 'S MART' in the last how ever many months.
Yeah, there's always ways to make it more difficult to track down....
Jim
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