Came to an end today.  I handed in my resignation letter Friday, and 
today was my last day teaching.  I already have another job lined up 
(less pay, but the bills will be paid).

It turned out that there are a lot of things that new teachers need to 
know that I didn't learn until after months on the job.

The frustrating part is that the principal who hired me knew that I was 
going to be fallen-off-the-turnip-wagon ignorant of these things.  I 
know this because I told him this during the job interview.  In one ear, 
out the other.

Oh well.

Regards,
John

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"John VanSickle" <evi### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message
news:47e80b82@news.povray.org...
> Came to an end today.  I handed in my resignation letter Friday, and
> today was my last day teaching.  I already have another job lined up
> (less pay, but the bills will be paid).

Good luck on future endeavours. What are you going to be doing now, and why
the move?

Post a reply to this message

Hey John, sorry to hear that.

   I don't know anything about school teaching apart from it's a hard 
profession to cope with.

    Good luck with your new job.

      ~Steve~

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:13:42 -0400, John VanSickle
<evi### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:

>Came to an end today.  I handed in my resignation letter Friday, and 
>today was my last day teaching.

It sounds like you are well out of it, teaching is an under rated
profession now-a-days. I wish you well in your new jobs and as Gail
asked why? What straw broke the camel's back? 
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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Ack.  Good luck with the new career - don't they require a teaching 
certificate to teach there?

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> Ack.  Good luck with the new career - don't they require a teaching 
> certificate to teach there?

I'll answer all of the questions here.

Florida requires that teachers eventually be certified, but if one has a 
bachelor's degree, the state will grant a certificate of eligibility for 
the field in which the degree is held.  A public school can then hire 
that person as a teacher.

After that point, the teacher has to complete a bunch of courses (which 
essentially duplicate the training required for certification), at which 
point a professional certificate is granted.

I entered teaching under this system.  When I was being interviewed for 
the job, I told them, and they understood, that I had never taught in a 
school setting.  I also told them, and they clearly did not understand, 
that since I knew nothing about conducting a classroom, that they should 
make no assumptions about what I know, and that they should not assume 
that I would recognize that a problem even existed, let alone how to 
prevent or fix such problems.

Because I knew so little about managing a classroom, I made a number of 
missteps which caused the students to regard my classroom as a place 
where there were no rules.  In February I was told that I had about a 
month to get the students behaving according to expectations, or I would 
not be retained for the following year.  I had already asked if he had 
seen such a classroom situation, and if so, how it had been resolved, 
and he hadn't given me an answer.  I asked the same question again, and 
again he could give no answer, which is a strong indication that the 
problem, as far as this batch of students is concerned, is probably 
unsolvable.  After another two weeks of trying to get the little dears 
to simply be quiet while I was lecturing, I decided that keeping the job 
wasn't worth the effort, and started seeking work elsewhere.

Throughout all of this it didn't help matters that whenever a parent 
complained about what was going on in class, the principal did not even 
make a token effort to verify that the complaint had any factual basis, 
and even after receiving first-hand evidence that he cannot accept such 
accounts at face value, he continued to act on complaints as if they 
were wholly reliable.  He also exhibited a pattern of ignoring anything 
I said that didn't already agree with what he already thought.  This is 
a guy who once got on my case for talking about another teacher in my 
class, but people have been talking about me behind my back for six 
months, and if he's done anything about it, he sure hasn't told me what 
it was.

Right now I am working in a job in retail sales, and I will probably 
stay there for a while until I decide what I want to do next.

Regards,
John

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On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 19:18:34 -0400, John VanSickle
<evi### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:

>
>Right now I am working in a job in retail sales, and I will probably 
>stay there for a while until I decide what I want to do next.

It sounds as if you are well out of it. Good luck in the rest of the
year.
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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Wow.  How old are the students?

I've done adult education classes myself, much easier to control (though 
there's always one or two who want to "show up" the teacher's knowledge 
and skills - that presents a unique challenge).

Sounds like a bad situation all around - glad to hear you got out of it.

Jim

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The phrase "salary schedule" comes to mind.  I suspect that some school 
districts keep their teaching budgets under control by hiring teachers 
that they know can be forced to resign after a year or two at the very 
bottom of the salary schedule, thus clearing the way to hire 
replacements at the very bottom of the salary schedule...

...but only, of course, for trivial, unimportant subjects like math or 
science.  Football coaches, now--that's a different story.

--Sherry Shaw


-- 
#macro T(E,N)sphere{x,.4rotate z*E*60translate y*N pigment{wrinkles scale
.3}finish{ambient 1}}#end#local I=0;#while(I<5)T(I,1)T(1-I,-1)#local I=I+
1;#end camera{location-5*z}plane{z,37 pigment{granite color_map{[.7rgb 0]
[1rgb 1]}}finish{ambient 2}}//                                   TenMoons

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On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:22:52 -0600, Sherry Shaw wrote:

> The phrase "salary schedule" comes to mind.  I suspect that some school
> districts keep their teaching budgets under control by hiring teachers
> that they know can be forced to resign after a year or two at the very
> bottom of the salary schedule, thus clearing the way to hire
> replacements at the very bottom of the salary schedule...

I dunno, I think the teachers' unions would have a problem with that 
here...

Jim

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I expect this decision comes as a great relief to you.

I lasted just four days tutoring in the "No child left behind" effort.

Personally, I've never looked back.

Post a reply to this message

John,

What you describe sounds exactly like the same problems my mother faces, 
and she's been teaching for years.  You're definitely not alone in 
wondering how to "solve" the problem of students' behavior, or in being 
persecuted by your own management.

After all that, I hope that you're happier in whatever you decide to do now.

-- 
...Ben Chambers
www.pacificwebguy.com

Post a reply to this message

John VanSickle wrote:

> 
> It turned out that there are a lot of things that new teachers need to 
> know that I didn't learn until after months on the job.
> 

Don't know what grades you taught, but teaching is one of those jobs 
that's very hard, and is getting more and more difficult every day. My 
wife is a teacher, and I admire her for what she does. I don't have the 
patience to be a school teacher, and I have very little tolerance for 
bad behavior and general disrespect, I suspect I would definitely not be 
suited for the job.

Good luck with whatever it is you've decided to move to.

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:

> 
> I dunno, I think the teachers' unions would have a problem with that 
> here...
> 

They're free to do that here (no union) But, yes. Good coaches get cushy 
jobs, and get to teach such things as math and science.

Ever had a biology class taught by a football coach? >shudder<

Post a reply to this message

Jim Charter wrote:

> I lasted just four days tutoring in the "No child left behind" effort.
> 
> Personally, I've never looked back.

Hmmm. 'No child left behind' My wife was going on about all of the 
paperwork she was required to file due to this act. I jokingly called it 
the 'No Piece of Paper Left Behind' act.

She was telling me yesterday, that by some year (I think 4 years from 
now, 2012) all students must pass standardized testing, or teachers 
could lose their jobs. I replied by stating that it was asinine to think 
that the teacher's performance should be judged by the student's 
performance on a test. There are MANY more factors that go into the 
performance of a child in addition to the teacher. You can't help those 
who are not willing to be helped. Parents who refuse to be involved in 
their child's education and well being are far more detrimental to that 
child's ability to learn than a teacher who gave her best effort in the 
classroom.

Post a reply to this message

Mike Raiford escribió:
> Don't know what grades you taught, but teaching is one of those jobs 
> that's very hard, and is getting more and more difficult every day. My 
> wife is a teacher, and I admire her for what she does. I don't have the 
> patience to be a school teacher, and I have very little tolerance for 
> bad behavior and general disrespect, I suspect I would definitely not be 
> suited for the job.

I know somebody who is teaching English as a second language in South 
Korea. To 5-year-old kids. How much patience does *that* need...

Post a reply to this message

Mike Raiford wrote:
> could lose their jobs. I replied by stating that it was asinine to think 
> that the teacher's performance should be judged by the student's 
> performance on a test.

The problem, of course, is that many teachers' performance is not being 
judged AT ALL.  So, how DO you judge their performance, if not by 
testing their students?

BTW, I was under the impression that teachers would be graded by the 
aggregate results of their students; not that they would be fired for a 
single student failing.

-- 
...Ben Chambers
www.pacificwebguy.com

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> Wow.  How old are the students?

These are ninth grade.  The youngest turned 14 this past December (he 
skipped a grade in elementary school), and the oldest turned 17 this 
month (flunked at least one grade).

Regards,
John

Post a reply to this message

Chambers wrote:
> John,
> 
> What you describe sounds exactly like the same problems my mother faces, 
> and she's been teaching for years.  You're definitely not alone in 
> wondering how to "solve" the problem of students' behavior, or in being 
> persecuted by your own management.

I have been trying to think of why the half-cocked complaints of parents 
got action, and the fully-informed things I said fell on deaf ears.  The 
explanation that is most likely is that this administrator feels safe 
ignoring me because I can't get him fired, but does not feel safe 
ignoring parents.

Regards,
John

Post a reply to this message

Nicolas Alvarez wrote:
> Mike Raiford escribió:
>> Don't know what grades you taught, but teaching is one of those jobs 
>> that's very hard, and is getting more and more difficult every day. My 
>> wife is a teacher, and I admire her for what she does. I don't have 
>> the patience to be a school teacher, and I have very little tolerance 
>> for bad behavior and general disrespect, I suspect I would definitely 
>> not be suited for the job.
> 
> I know somebody who is teaching English as a second language in South 
> Korea. To 5-year-old kids. How much patience does *that* need...

Actually, 5-year-olds are fairly easy to handle, especially on this 
subject.  Children that age are very adept at learning new languages, 
and you can turn most of the learning into a game.

Regards,
John

Post a reply to this message

Chambers escribió:
> BTW, I was under the impression that teachers would be graded by the 
> aggregate results of their students; not that they would be fired for a 
> single student failing.
> 

Firing teachers if a single student fails will just make the teachers 
make sure they don't fail, even if they didn't learn anything.

Post a reply to this message

Chambers wrote:

> BTW, I was under the impression that teachers would be graded by the 
> aggregate results of their students; not that they would be fired for a 
> single student failing.

That's about right. Some of the testing is ridiculous, though. Most of 
her students enter her classroom at extremely low literacy levels, and 
leave at almost where they should be, but due to the way the test is 
structured the end score of those tests show absolutely no growth.

By 2012 there must be a 100% passing rate, or the teachers involved may 
not be retained. (The key word is may, it's very possible the teacher 
will be retained, but may be subject to disciplinary action.)

Observation of the teacher in the classroom, general performance metrics 
of the *teacher* (How well does she manage the classroom, does the 
teacher use effective techniques, does the teacher innovate in 
demonstrating things in a way the students can understand, is the 
teacher engaging the students. Does the teacher share ideas with other 
staff. Does the teacher provide adequate one-on-one support for those 
students who are struggling. There are plenty of ways a teacher can be 
evaluated. How well a student whose parents couldn't care less about 
sitting down with their kids and helping with homework, does not 
establish good habits, such as a bedtime so the student isn't prone to 
falling asleep in class, etc is not the way to evaluate a teacher, 
because these are factors beyond her control.)

Post a reply to this message

Mike Raiford wrote:
> Jim Charter wrote:
> 
>> I lasted just four days tutoring in the "No child left behind" effort.
>>
>> Personally, I've never looked back.
> 
> Hmmm. 'No child left behind' My wife was going on about all of the 
> paperwork she was required to file due to this act. I jokingly called it 
> the 'No Piece of Paper Left Behind' act.
> 
> She was telling me yesterday, that by some year (I think 4 years from 
> now, 2012) all students must pass standardized testing, or teachers 
> could lose their jobs. I replied by stating that it was asinine to think 
> that the teacher's performance should be judged by the student's 
> performance on a test. There are MANY more factors that go into the 
> performance of a child in addition to the teacher. You can't help those 
> who are not willing to be helped. Parents who refuse to be involved in 
> their child's education and well being are far more detrimental to that 
> child's ability to learn than a teacher who gave her best effort in the 
> classroom.
Solutions:
- pass on poor (performing) students to other schools
- try to be more attractive to students from good neighbourhoods/wealthy 
parents.
- let the poor performing fail the year before the test
- proclaim the poor performing students ill during the test period
- take many disciplinary actions for futile offenses until they 
'voluntary' leave school before the test.
- ...

At least the first four options are actually used in some form in the 
Netherlands to increase the rating of the school.

Post a reply to this message

"andrel" <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message 
news:47E### [at] hotmailcom...
> Mike Raiford wrote:
>> Jim Charter wrote:
>>
>>> I lasted just four days tutoring in the "No child left behind" effort.
>>>
>>> Personally, I've never looked back.
>>
>> Hmmm. 'No child left behind' My wife was going on about all of the 
>> paperwork she was required to file due to this act. I jokingly called it 
>> the 'No Piece of Paper Left Behind' act.
>>
>> She was telling me yesterday, that by some year (I think 4 years from 
>> now, 2012) all students must pass standardized testing, or teachers could 
>> lose their jobs. I replied by stating that it was asinine to think that 
>> the teacher's performance should be judged by the student's performance 
>> on a test. There are MANY more factors that go into the performance of a 
>> child in addition to the teacher. You can't help those who are not 
>> willing to be helped. Parents who refuse to be involved in their child's 
>> education and well being are far more detrimental to that child's ability 
>> to learn than a teacher who gave her best effort in the classroom.
> Solutions:
> - pass on poor (performing) students to other schools
> - try to be more attractive to students from good neighbourhoods/wealthy 
> parents.
> - let the poor performing fail the year before the test
> - proclaim the poor performing students ill during the test period
> - take many disciplinary actions for futile offenses until they 
> 'voluntary' leave school before the test.
> - ...
>
> At least the first four options are actually used in some form in the 
> Netherlands to increase the rating of the school.

    I would say: Introduce competition between schools much like our 
football leagues here in the UK. Give the pupils something to be proud of 
and to work for - a challenge. Have league tables. Give them incentive/s. If 
they are in a school that does *very* well, then that pupil has a better 
option of getting a good job and earning more money when they leave. If the 
school doesn't do well, then the pupils are on the scrap-heap and not the 
teachers.

   I wish that was in place when I was young.

     ~Steve~

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St. wrote:
> "andrel" <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message 
> news:47E### [at] hotmailcom...
>> Mike Raiford wrote:
>>> Jim Charter wrote:
>>>
>>>> I lasted just four days tutoring in the "No child left behind" effort.
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I've never looked back.
>>> Hmmm. 'No child left behind' My wife was going on about all of the 
>>> paperwork she was required to file due to this act. I jokingly called it 
>>> the 'No Piece of Paper Left Behind' act.
>>>
>>> She was telling me yesterday, that by some year (I think 4 years from 
>>> now, 2012) all students must pass standardized testing, or teachers could 
>>> lose their jobs. I replied by stating that it was asinine to think that 
>>> the teacher's performance should be judged by the student's performance 
>>> on a test. There are MANY more factors that go into the performance of a 
>>> child in addition to the teacher. You can't help those who are not 
>>> willing to be helped. Parents who refuse to be involved in their child's 
>>> education and well being are far more detrimental to that child's ability 
>>> to learn than a teacher who gave her best effort in the classroom.
>> Solutions:
>> - pass on poor (performing) students to other schools
>> - try to be more attractive to students from good neighbourhoods/wealthy 
>> parents.
>> - let the poor performing fail the year before the test
>> - proclaim the poor performing students ill during the test period
>> - take many disciplinary actions for futile offenses until they 
>> 'voluntary' leave school before the test.
>> - ...
>>
>> At least the first four options are actually used in some form in the 
>> Netherlands to increase the rating of the school.
> 
>     I would say: Introduce competition between schools much like our 
> football leagues here in the UK. Give the pupils something to be proud of 
> and to work for - a challenge. Have league tables. Give them incentive/s. If 
> they are in a school that does *very* well, then that pupil has a better 
> option of getting a good job and earning more money when they leave. If the 
> school doesn't do well, then the pupils are on the scrap-heap and not the 
> teachers.
> 
>    I wish that was in place when I was young.
> 
It might seem a good idea, but the problem is that humans are too 
intelligent. If you are introducing a competition or grading or whatever 
based on a numerical score, teachers and schools are going to optimize 
that number. Most of the ratings that I have seen have some perverse way 
of increasing the score in a way that works totally against the intended 
objective. Base a score on the performance of pupils and schools will 
try to get rid of less performing students as soon as possible. It'll 
result in a system where the weaker pupils get less and less education. 
Another example is that the government here put a fine on too much delay 
for trains. Guess what happened. They changed the timetables to include 
waiting time at big stations, connecting trains don't wait for a 
slightly delayed train and they take trains out of the schedule as soon 
as the delay gets too big (the rule states that only running trains 
count). Result: more trains on time according to schedule and 
significant more delays for the passengers. Moral: never ever assign 
numerical scores to performance. No really, don't.

Post a reply to this message

Mike Raiford wrote:
> Jim Charter wrote:
> 
>> I lasted just four days tutoring in the "No child left behind" effort.
>>
>> Personally, I've never looked back.
> 
> Hmmm. 'No child left behind' My wife was going on about all of the 
> paperwork she was required to file due to this act. I jokingly called it 
> the 'No Piece of Paper Left Behind' act.
> 
> She was telling me yesterday, that by some year (I think 4 years from 
> now, 2012) all students must pass standardized testing, or teachers 
> could lose their jobs. I replied by stating that it was asinine to think 
> that the teacher's performance should be judged by the student's 
> performance on a test. There are MANY more factors that go into the 
> performance of a child in addition to the teacher. You can't help those 
> who are not willing to be helped. Parents who refuse to be involved in 
> their child's education and well being are far more detrimental to that 
> child's ability to learn than a teacher who gave her best effort in the 
> classroom.

We went through the standardized testing during my last week on the job. 
  This is the Florida state test, and it is used not only to judge the 
performance of the school, but also to place the children during the 
following school year.

I do agree with placing the children according to their performance on 
the test, since there is really no better way of evaluating their level 
of learning, and it gives them a good incentive to do well on the test 
(otherwise they risk getting the stigma of placement in the remedial 
classes).  I do not agree with rating teachers and schools based on the 
results of these tests.

The only other thing to use the tests for is to identify the students 
who are performing above their demographic peers, and then identify the 
methods that are used by their teachers, and institute these methods in 
every applicable circumstance.

Our school does exceptionally well on these tests, and the 
administrators probably imagine that it's because of something they do. 
  What are far more likely causes are two factors that are unique to our 
school vs. the other public schools in the area.  Our school is a 
charter school, publicly funded, but operated under somewhat different 
rules.

Factor number one is the requirement that every student be the child of 
at least one person working for the private company that sponsored the 
establishment of the charter school, or for a company that is linked to 
this sponsoring company.  This means, among other things, that at least 
one person in the household works for a living.  This reduces an 
enormous range of social pathologies.

Second, attendance here is regarded as a privilege, not a right, and 
students can be sent packing for things that would be ignored in the 
other schools.

Regards,
John

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Mike Raiford wrote:
> By 2012 there must be a 100% passing rate, or the teachers involved may 
> not be retained. (The key word is may, it's very possible the teacher 
> will be retained, but may be subject to disciplinary action.)

This scares me, and opens up the system for all kinds of abuse.

Any time you deal in absolutes ("100%", "Not a single mistake", always / 
never etc) you should probably adjust your thinking.

-- 
...Ben Chambers
www.pacificwebguy.com

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 07:23:44 -0500, Mike Raiford wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
> 
>> I dunno, I think the teachers' unions would have a problem with that
>> here...
>> 
>> 
> They're free to do that here (no union) But, yes. Good coaches get cushy
> jobs, and get to teach such things as math and science.
> 
> Ever had a biology class taught by a football coach? >shudder<

I never took biology, but I know what you mean.....Yeah, sometimes the 
priorities of schools get really messed up.  My university was ranked at 
the bottom of the sports rankings for pretty much every sport; I couldn't 
understand why they did sports scholarships (it is, after all, an 
aeronautical university with programs like aeronautical engineering, 
computer science, and engineering physics) but not generally for things 
like, oh, I don't know, running the computer lab network with 0 
downtime....

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:52:07 -0700, Chambers wrote:

> Mike Raiford wrote:
>> By 2012 there must be a 100% passing rate, or the teachers involved may
>> not be retained. (The key word is may, it's very possible the teacher
>> will be retained, but may be subject to disciplinary action.)
> 
> This scares me, and opens up the system for all kinds of abuse.
> 
> Any time you deal in absolutes ("100%", "Not a single mistake", always /
> never etc) you should probably adjust your thinking.

It's essentially a "zero tolerance" implementation on the academic side.  
Maybe if ZT policies get applied to school administration as well, we'll 
see some common sense return to the schools.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 10:32:16 -0400, John VanSickle wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Wow.  How old are the students?
> 
> These are ninth grade.  The youngest turned 14 this past December (he
> skipped a grade in elementary school), and the oldest turned 17 this
> month (flunked at least one grade).

You'd think by that age they'd have figured out how to act appropriately 
in school....

There I go again, applying common sense. ;-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 10:46:20 -0300, Nicolas Alvarez wrote:

> Mike Raiford escribió:
>> Don't know what grades you taught, but teaching is one of those jobs
>> that's very hard, and is getting more and more difficult every day. My
>> wife is a teacher, and I admire her for what she does. I don't have the
>> patience to be a school teacher, and I have very little tolerance for
>> bad behavior and general disrespect, I suspect I would definitely not
>> be suited for the job.
> 
> I know somebody who is teaching English as a second language in South
> Korea. To 5-year-old kids. How much patience does *that* need...

My brother teaches ESL to kids (and adults) of all ages in Osaka - he 
says there are days, and then there are *days*.

Jim

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