http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/We-Dont-Need-Requirements.aspx

"Finally, they asked us how we even knew the damn thing met the specs. 
We said "what specs?" The overlords then turned to the sponsor and 
inquired as to how they could spend 50 man years on a project over two 
years and not have specs. The sponsors responded that we don't need 
specifications because it will be done when we don't see any more problems.

We were thanked for our time and told to go home. The sponsors stayed 
behind. Personally, I hope they were eaten."

FINALLY, a story where the blame actually ends up being put where it 
belongs...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:07:19 +0000, Orchid XP v7 wrote:

> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/We-Dont-Need-Requirements.aspx
> 
> "Finally, they asked us how we even knew the damn thing met the specs.
> We said "what specs?" The overlords then turned to the sponsor and
> inquired as to how they could spend 50 man years on a project over two
> years and not have specs. The sponsors responded that we don't need
> specifications because it will be done when we don't see any more
> problems.
> 
> We were thanked for our time and told to go home. The sponsors stayed
> behind. Personally, I hope they were eaten."
> 
> FINALLY, a story where the blame actually ends up being put where it
> belongs...

Sounds familiar....<g>

Jim

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"Orchid XP v7" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:47b36a16$1@news.povray.org...

> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/We-Dont-Need-Requirements.aspx
>
> We were thanked for our time and told to go home. The sponsors stayed
> behind. Personally, I hope they were eaten."
>
> FINALLY, a story where the blame actually ends up being put where it
> belongs...

Au conraire. The blame is squarely on the developers, not the sponsors.
Ignorance of a customer is no reason to take advantage of them and sell them
shoddy merchandise or deliver a crappy product. Either the developers did
that out of malice, or they were clueless too. You don't take on a job that
you know will fail, and you don't keep at it so long as you get the
paycheck, just because you know someone else is going to be blamed.

Post a reply to this message

somebody wrote:

>> FINALLY, a story where the blame actually ends up being put where it
>> belongs...
> 
> Au conraire. The blame is squarely on the developers, not the sponsors.

I see. So when the customer has no idea what the hell they actually 
want, but they are demanding that they want it RIGHT NOW, what are you 
supposed to do?

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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"Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:47b41ffc$1@news.povray.org...
> somebody wrote:

> >> FINALLY, a story where the blame actually ends up being put where it
> >> belongs...

> > Au conraire. The blame is squarely on the developers, not the sponsors.

> I see. So when the customer has no idea what the hell they actually
> want, but they are demanding that they want it RIGHT NOW, what are you
> supposed to do?

http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/no

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>> I see. So when the customer has no idea what the hell they actually
>> want, but they are demanding that they want it RIGHT NOW, what are you
>> supposed to do?
> 
> http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/no

Right. So your boss has told the client "yes, we'll build your system, 
it'll be ready in March", and the client keeps changing their mind about 
what they actually want, but your boss is expecting you to come up with 
the goods because money has already changed hands... seriously, how are 
you supposed to get out of this mess?

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 11:12:19 +0000, Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:

>>> I see. So when the customer has no idea what the hell they actually
>>> want, but they are demanding that they want it RIGHT NOW, what are you
>>> supposed to do?
>> 
>> http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/no
>
>Right. So your boss has told the client "yes, we'll build your system, 
>it'll be ready in March", and the client keeps changing their mind about 
>what they actually want, but your boss is expecting you to come up with 
>the goods because money has already changed hands... seriously, how are 
>you supposed to get out of this mess?

It is the implementers fault with a little bit on the client's side for not
having quality control. Actually I am not too sure that this post is genuine I
cannot see any client spending $MM without having a company man involved
directly. I've been working on these sorts of projects for a long time and it
does not ring true. If it is true then the poster should have put his hand up
and shouted from the rooftop.


Regards
	Stephen

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"Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:47b41ffc$1@news.povray.org...
> somebody wrote:
>
> >> FINALLY, a story where the blame actually ends up being put where it
> >> belongs...
> >
> > Au conraire. The blame is squarely on the developers, not the sponsors.
>
> I see. So when the customer has no idea what the hell they actually
> want, but they are demanding that they want it RIGHT NOW, what are you
> supposed to do?

Inform the 'overlords' before 2 years and lots of money are wasted.

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Gail Shaw wrote:
> "Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
> news:47b41ffc$1@news.povray.org...
>> somebody wrote:
>>
>>>> FINALLY, a story where the blame actually ends up being put where it
>>>> belongs...
>>> Au conraire. The blame is squarely on the developers, not the sponsors.
>> I see. So when the customer has no idea what the hell they actually
>> want, but they are demanding that they want it RIGHT NOW, what are you
>> supposed to do?
> 
> Inform the 'overlords' before 2 years and lots of money are wasted.

Somehow I suspect they tried, but weren't listened to...

[Although obviously there's no real way to know in this case.]

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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"Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:47b42213$1@news.povray.org...

> >> I see. So when the customer has no idea what the hell they actually
> >> want, but they are demanding that they want it RIGHT NOW, what are you
> >> supposed to do?

> > http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/no

> Right. So your boss has told the client "yes,

Then say "no" to your boss. If your boss told you to jump off a cliff, would
you? Communication, and not just going in for the ride, is the key to
avoiding train wrecks. All these developers blaming their bosses or clients
for dismal failures are simply exposing their inability to communicate and
stand their ground - that, or like I said, they shared the bosses' or
clients' delusions at one time at least and cannot admit to that.

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somebody wrote:

>> Right. So your boss has told the client "yes,
> 
> Then say "no" to your boss.

Sure. If you don't mind being fired.

Although, in this instance, maybe that wouldn't be such a bad idea...

> All these developers blaming their bosses or clients
> for dismal failures are simply exposing their inability to communicate and
> stand their ground.

Because of course, standing your ground in a policital situation is 
trivially easy...

I love the way every time I say anything I am always wrong by 
definition. Clients demand the impossible within ridiculous timescales? 
Sure, of corse the client isn't to blame for the project's failure...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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"Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:47b46229@news.povray.org...
> somebody wrote:

> >> Right. So your boss has told the client "yes,

> > Then say "no" to your boss.

> Sure. If you don't mind being fired.

False dichotomy.

> Because of course, standing your ground in a policital situation is
> trivially easy...

No, pocketing the client's money while delivering an unusable product is the
trivially easy one. The other actually requires some skill and integrity.
(And how did politics get into this?)

> I love the way every time I say anything I am always wrong by
> definition.

You are wrong.

> Clients demand the impossible within ridiculous timescales?
> Sure, of corse the client isn't to blame for the project's failure...

If you go to an auto mechanic and demand to have the engine double its HP
overnight, should he fake it and charge you? Why should I respect a
developer who exhibits the same dishonesty just so he can make money of
ignorant/unsuspecting clients?

Post a reply to this message

"Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:47b46229@news.povray.org...
> somebody wrote:
>
> >> Right. So your boss has told the client "yes,
> >
> > Then say "no" to your boss.
>
> Sure. If you don't mind being fired.

Only if it's a bad boss in the first place.

I tell my boss (direct manager that is) no way quite often. I still have a
job.
He trusts that I know my job better than he does. That's why he pays me

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Gail Shaw wrote:
> "Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
> news:47b46229@news.povray.org...
>> somebody wrote:
>>
>>>> Right. So your boss has told the client "yes,
>>> Then say "no" to your boss.
>> Sure. If you don't mind being fired.
> 
> Only if it's a bad boss in the first place.
> 
> I tell my boss (direct manager that is) no way quite often. I still have a
> job.
> He trusts that I know my job better than he does. That's why he pays me

I can't help feeling that if "the overlords" didn't figure out there's 
not spec until the final hour, they're probably not the good kind...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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"Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:47b473e4@news.povray.org...
> Gail Shaw wrote:
> > "Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
> > news:47b46229@news.povray.org...
> >> somebody wrote:
> >>
> >>>> Right. So your boss has told the client "yes,
> >>> Then say "no" to your boss.
> >> Sure. If you don't mind being fired.
> >
> > Only if it's a bad boss in the first place.
> >
> > I tell my boss (direct manager that is) no way quite often. I still have
a
> > job.
> > He trusts that I know my job better than he does. That's why he pays me
>
> I can't help feeling that if "the overlords" didn't figure out there's
> not spec until the final hour, they're probably not the good kind...

Probably not. In which case, do you really weant to be working for them?

Could also be that the 'overlords' were getting 'progress' reports from the
client. Reports that were complete fabrication. And then they assume that
because no issues have been raised by the dev team, all's well.

There are a number of possible causes for this stuff up. Lack of
communication, however, is almost certainly a contributing factor.

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On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 18:54:09 +0200, Gail Shaw wrote:

> "Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
> news:47b46229@news.povray.org...
>> somebody wrote:
>>
>> >> Right. So your boss has told the client "yes,
>> >
>> > Then say "no" to your boss.
>>
>> Sure. If you don't mind being fired.
> 
> Only if it's a bad boss in the first place.
> 
> I tell my boss (direct manager that is) no way quite often. I still have
> a job.
> He trusts that I know my job better than he does. That's why he pays me

Same here.  Had a situation come up about a month ago where my boss asked 
me to change something about the requirements for a course; I said "no" 
and explained why we did things the way we did, and she was good with 
that - and even agreed with our reasoning (better to have a few 
instructors who are excellent at teaching it than all the instructors out 
there - qualified and not - teaching it and giving customers a bad 
impression of the product).  5 years now, and I've said no to my VP a few 
times as well.

Of course, there are many different ways to say no, and some of them will 
get you fired.

Jim

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Gail Shaw wrote:

> There are a number of possible causes for this stuff up. Lack of
> communication, however, is almost certainly a contributing factor.

I fully agree.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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