Gail Shaw wrote:

> You are behind the times

Oh good. That's new then...

> Selling music online is a huge industry. I-Tunes store is just one example.
> Amazon's started recently too.

Interesting...

Last time I heard, lots of conpanies *wanted* to start selling music 
downloads, but nobody could think of a way of preventing everybody 
pirating it, so they were all too scared to go down that route.

I'm still amused by one quote a read: "Trying to make data not copyable 
is like trying to make water not wet."

So, how have they solved that apparently unsolvable problem then?

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Warp wrote:

>> So, what, you only listen to illegal music?
> 
>   Only illegal music can be transferred over the internet?

As a technological matter - no.

As a practical matter - I'm not aware of anybody who permits you to 
obtain MP3s legally. (Or at least, MP3s of commercial music anyway.)

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Invisible wrote:

> Interesting...
> 
> Last time I heard, lots of conpanies *wanted* to start selling music 
> downloads, but nobody could think of a way of preventing everybody 
> pirating it, so they were all too scared to go down that route.

See? This is what happens when you live under a rock ... Car radios get 
more sophisticated, and can load up more than 10 albums to a single CD, 
and people actually buy music off the internet, and you seem not to be 
aware of these (not so) recent innovations.

> I'm still amused by one quote a read: "Trying to make data not copyable 
> is like trying to make water not wet."
> 
> So, how have they solved that apparently unsolvable problem then?
> 

Well, the data is encrypted, of course, encryption is meant to be broken 
...

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:
> 
> As a practical matter - I'm not aware of anybody who permits you to 
> obtain MP3s legally. (Or at least, MP3s of commercial music anyway.)
> 

I have albums in MP3 format that I obtained legally, then followed their 
instructions on converting their proprietary format to MP3 so they can 
play on my car stereo.

All legal, and all within the license agreement.

Post a reply to this message

Mike Raiford wrote:

> See? This is what happens when you live under a rock ... Car radios get 
> more sophisticated, and can load up more than 10 albums to a single CD, 
> and people actually buy music off the internet, and you seem not to be 
> aware of these (not so) recent innovations.

Hey, *I* buy music off the Internet. I just have to wait for a small 
piece of silvered plastic to arrive in the post afterwards. ;-)

>> So, how have they solved that apparently unsolvable problem then?
> 
> Well, the data is encrypted, of course, encryption is meant to be broken 

More precisely: The encryption *must* be removed in order to *play* the 
music. Therefore, this encryption must be trivially breakable, and 
therefore it cannot prevent anybody pirating the music.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

"Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:47ac757e@news.povray.org...
> Warp wrote:
>
> >> So, what, you only listen to illegal music?
> >
> >   Only illegal music can be transferred over the internet?
>
> As a technological matter - no.
>
> As a practical matter - I'm not aware of anybody who permits you to
> obtain MP3s legally. (Or at least, MP3s of commercial music anyway.)

Amazon. Apple. To name just 2

Post a reply to this message

that's a huge big pile of ... ;)

Except perhaps for Kraftwerk.

Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Chopin and company are spread throughout my CDs and
brand-new HD...

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:
> More precisely: The encryption *must* be removed in order to *play* the 
> music. Therefore, this encryption must be trivially breakable, and 
> therefore it cannot prevent anybody pirating the music.

Encryption, if it is decryptable, is therefore trivially decryptable?

Here kid, tell me what's in this file *without* knowing the key.

-- 
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.digitalartsuk.com

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GFA dpu- s: a?-- C++(++++) U P? L E--- W++(+++)>$
N++ o? K- w(+) O? M-(--) V? PS+(+++) PE(--) Y(--)
PGP-(--) t* 5++>+++++ X+ R* tv+ b++(+++) DI
D++(---) G(++) e*>++ h+ !r--- !y--
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Post a reply to this message

Invisible escribió:
> Mike Raiford wrote:
>> CDs are old fashioned because people buy and download their crap music 
>> to their iPods now (those fashionable white boxes you see various 
>> teenagers walking around with) Music on CD has gone the way of the LP 
>> record. :)
> 
> Really? I wasn't aware it was possible to do that legally yet... oh, 
> wait...

Yep, there's iTunes store and others, where you legally buy the digital 
files. With DRM of course...

Post a reply to this message

Tim Cook wrote:
> Invisible wrote:
>> More precisely: The encryption *must* be removed in order to *play* 
>> the music. Therefore, this encryption must be trivially breakable, and 
>> therefore it cannot prevent anybody pirating the music.
> 
> Encryption, if it is decryptable, is therefore trivially decryptable?
> 
> Here kid, tell me what's in this file *without* knowing the key.

If you can play it, you must have the decryption key. Encrypted data 
with the key right next to it might as well not be encrypted at all...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

nemesis wrote:
> that's a huge big pile of ... ;)

Yes, that's roughly the response I was expecting. :-P

> Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Chopin and company are spread throughout my CDs and
> brand-new HD...

I like Bach. I wouldn't recognise any of the others...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v7 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> If you can play it, you must have the decryption key. Encrypted data 
> with the key right next to it might as well not be encrypted at all...

  In some situations it's not that simple.

  For example the PlayStation Portable supports running programs from
the flash memory card directly (instead of the optical disc), but only
ones approved by Sony. It will refuse to run anything else.

  How does it achieve this? Why can't people just write programs for the
PSP, load them into the memory card and run them? Because the PSP only
runs properly encrypted binaries.

  Of course in order to run them it needs to decrypt them, and to decrypt
them it needs a decryption key. Couldn't this key just be read from the
PSP's memory and use to encrypt third-party programs? The answer is: No.
The decryption key can be read, but it cannot be used to encrypt the
programs.

  Thus encryption in this case works, even though the decryption key is
right there in the ROM of the device.

  (Yes, third-party programs can be run on PSP, at least ones with older
firmwares, but that's achieved by exploiting some bugs, ie. programming
errors in these older firmwares. For my point it's irrelevant.)

  Of course in the case of music you don't need any encryption key, as
the decryption key is enough to do what you want. The only way to protect
that is to protect the decryption key and the decryption process in such
way that you can't get hold of it. Basically you would need a black box,
which is the music player, which cannot be looked inside. That's, in fact,
what the music industry is aiming towards, even if this "black box" is
inside the user's PC or handheld device.

  Of course encryption doesn't patch the analog hole.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v7 escribió:
> Tim Cook wrote:
>> Invisible wrote:
>>> More precisely: The encryption *must* be removed in order to *play* 
>>> the music. Therefore, this encryption must be trivially breakable, 
>>> and therefore it cannot prevent anybody pirating the music.
>>
>> Encryption, if it is decryptable, is therefore trivially decryptable?
>>
>> Here kid, tell me what's in this file *without* knowing the key.
> 
> If you can play it, you must have the decryption key. Encrypted data 
> with the key right next to it might as well not be encrypted at all...

The key is hidden on iTunes, or something it gets by mixing some data 
from your iTunes account and something hidden in iTunes.

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v7 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> nemesis wrote:
> > that's a huge big pile of ... ;)
>
> Yes, that's roughly the response I was expecting. :-P
>
> > Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Chopin and company are spread throughout my CDs and
> > brand-new HD...
>
> I like Bach. I wouldn't recognise any of the others...

Yes, that's roughly the response I was expecting. :-P

Post a reply to this message

"Warp" <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote in message
news:47ac56be@news.povray.org...
> Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:

> >    "In 2005, music sales in the UK fell by 5%. Music piracy represents a
> > significant global problem."

>   That's quite an amusing sentence since it contains so many non-sequitur
> fallacies.

I don't think it's meant to be a logical deduction (it's *two separate*
sentences), just statement of some facts.

That said, saying that sales would have declined anyway even if hundereds of
millions of teenagers were not pirating music over the internet is, well,
nonsense. Did piracy reduce sales? Sure. Was piracy avoidable in the
Internet age? No, not with the current structure of the internet anyway. It
seems inevitable to me that things will have to change, for better or worse.

Post a reply to this message

nemesis wrote:

> Yes, that's roughly the response I was expecting. :-P

I can play a large section of Bach's Toccata and Fuge in D minor from 
memory, if that makes it any better?

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:

>   For example the PlayStation Portable supports running programs from
> the flash memory card directly (instead of the optical disc), but only
> ones approved by Sony. It will refuse to run anything else.
>   Of course in order to run them it needs to decrypt them, and to decrypt
> them it needs a decryption key. Couldn't this key just be read from the
> PSP's memory and use to encrypt third-party programs? The answer is: No.
> The decryption key can be read, but it cannot be used to encrypt the
> programs.

Asymmetric encryption. I can see how that would work. (OTOH, couldn't 
you just modify the firmware to not require this?)

>   Of course in the case of music you don't need any encryption key, as
> the decryption key is enough to do what you want. The only way to protect
> that is to protect the decryption key and the decryption process in such
> way that you can't get hold of it. Basically you would need a black box,
> which is the music player, which cannot be looked inside. That's, in fact,
> what the music industry is aiming towards, even if this "black box" is
> inside the user's PC or handheld device.

I see two possibilities.

1. There is one secret decryption key. Every iPod (or whatever) has this 
key burned inside it, with tamper-proof hardware to stop you getting at 
it. In this case, you don't *need* to decrypt the data; you can just 
copy the encrypted files and they will play perfectly on any iPod. So 
this is clearly a non-solution.

2. There is a unique key inside every iPod. That means that music which 
you have legally purchased can only ever be played on 1 device. So this 
is clearly also a non-solution.

I'm not seeing a way this can be made to work properly...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Orchid XP v7 escribió:
> nemesis wrote:
>> Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Chopin and company are spread throughout my 
>> CDs and
>> brand-new HD...
> 
> I like Bach. I wouldn't recognise any of the others...
> 

You mean you wouldn't know who of them is the composer if you listen to 
a song, or that you have never heard those names? :)

Post a reply to this message

Nicolas Alvarez wrote:
> Orchid XP v7 escribió:
>> nemesis wrote:
>>> Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Chopin and company are spread throughout my 
>>> CDs and
>>> brand-new HD...
>>
>> I like Bach. I wouldn't recognise any of the others...
>>
> 
> You mean you wouldn't know who of them is the composer if you listen to 
> a song, or that you have never heard those names? :)

Oh, I've obviously *heard* of them. (I have actually had my surname 
confused with one of them - as if!) But I would have no idea what they 
sound like. Or which millenium they lived in. Or which country. Or... 
anything, really.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Orchid XP v7 escribió:
> I'm not seeing a way this can be made to work properly...

But it has been done, and it works, so how about doing some research?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairPlay#How_it_works

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v7 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> I can play a large section of Bach's Toccata and Fuge in D minor from
> memory, if that makes it any better?

I was expecting you to like Bach.  He's the most mathematician-like of the
classic composers.  But as usual, I'm impressed by your amazing ignorance about
well-known facts.

"I wouldn't recognise any of the others", the other being Beethoven and Mozart.
Come on!  Even the chinese behind the Great Wall know Beethoven and Mozart!!

Post a reply to this message

Nicolas Alvarez wrote:
> Orchid XP v7 escribió:
>> I'm not seeing a way this can be made to work properly...
> 
> But it has been done, and it works, so how about doing some research?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairPlay#How_it_works

Right. So the decryption key is stored seperately from the actual file. 
Thus, all you have to do is figure out how to copy the decryption key as 
well and you can copy the data to as many million iPods as you want. QED.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

nemesis wrote:
> Orchid XP v7 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>> I can play a large section of Bach's Toccata and Fuge in D minor from
>> memory, if that makes it any better?
> 
> I was expecting you to like Bach.  He's the most mathematician-like of the
> classic composers.  But as usual, I'm impressed by your amazing ignorance about
> well-known facts.

Knowing what a tune sounds like is a "fact", is it?

> "I wouldn't recognise any of the others", the other being Beethoven and Mozart.
> Come on!  Even the chinese behind the Great Wall know Beethoven and Mozart!!

Sure, I've heard of them. But I have no idea what they sound like. You 
make it sound like a crime or something. :-P

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

s. cinar <a### [at] bcom> wrote:
> > >    "In 2005, music sales in the UK fell by 5%. Music piracy represents a
> > > significant global problem."

> >   That's quite an amusing sentence since it contains so many non-sequitur
> > fallacies.

> I don't think it's meant to be a logical deduction (it's *two separate*
> sentences), just statement of some facts.

  Maybe technically you could see it like that, but most people will see
a "because" between the two sentences, and I'm quite sure the writer more
or less implied that.

> That said, saying that sales would have declined anyway even if hundereds of
> millions of teenagers were not pirating music over the internet is, well,
> nonsense. Did piracy reduce sales? Sure. Was piracy avoidable in the
> Internet age? No, not with the current structure of the internet anyway. It
> seems inevitable to me that things will have to change, for better or worse.

  Nobody denies that music piracy happens. However, proving that music
piracy is the reason for decreased sales is quite much harder.

  If I'm not mistaken, something similar has happened before: Radio stations
started broadcasting music, and some time after music sales dropped quite
a lot. Of course the music industry, even today, likes to make a correlation.
What they don't like to mention is that this drop happened after 1929,
which is a much more likely explanation for the decreased sales.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v7 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> Warp wrote:

> >   For example the PlayStation Portable supports running programs from
> > the flash memory card directly (instead of the optical disc), but only
> > ones approved by Sony. It will refuse to run anything else.
> >   Of course in order to run them it needs to decrypt them, and to decrypt
> > them it needs a decryption key. Couldn't this key just be read from the
> > PSP's memory and use to encrypt third-party programs? The answer is: No.
> > The decryption key can be read, but it cannot be used to encrypt the
> > programs.

> Asymmetric encryption. I can see how that would work. (OTOH, couldn't 
> you just modify the firmware to not require this?)

  If the actual decryption happens in non-writable ROM memory, it would
be impossible. I don't know how it's actually done in the PSP, though.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:

>> Asymmetric encryption. I can see how that would work. (OTOH, couldn't 
>> you just modify the firmware to not require this?)
> 
>   If the actual decryption happens in non-writable ROM memory, it would
> be impossible. I don't know how it's actually done in the PSP, though.

Mmm. Well. I imagine Sony has thought about this part...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v7 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> Sure, I've heard of them. But I have no idea what they sound like.

sure you do.  You just don't know it...

Post a reply to this message

nemesis wrote:
> Orchid XP v7 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>> Sure, I've heard of them. But I have no idea what they sound like.
> 
> sure you do.  You just don't know it...

Well, no, *obviously* I've heard their music. I just couldn't tell you 
which is which, that's all.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Orchid XP v7 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> Well, no, *obviously* I've heard their music.

good.  Now I don't know what amuses me the most:  that you can't distinguish
their  styles or that even being aquainted to Bach you're still listening to
that much crap from the recording industry...

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 10:19:28 +0000, Invisible wrote:

> So, what's in *your* CD collection?

Wagner's Ring (all four operas)
Mozart early symphonies
Beethoven symphonies
Queen
Enya
The Eagles
Mannheim Steamroller
George Carlin
Clannad
A large number of movie soundtracks (Dracula, High Fidelity, LoTR)
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (all 5 radio series)
Enigma
Howard Hansen Symphonies
Shostakovich

Quite a lot of other stuff as well, that's just a sample...

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 06:49:37 -0500, Warp wrote:

>   I stopped buying any music CDs some years ago because I got totally
> fed up with the music industry and its policies and its lobbying of

Oh, and yes, I also stopped regularly buying CDs some years ago as well - 
my collection is mostly from > 7 years ago.  We've picked up a few things 
since then (like the new H2G2 series, Lewis Black at Carnegie, etc.).

The new purchases are generally "pre-owned" bought at a secondhand shop.  
Except for the Hitchhiker's series - those were new from the BBC.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 05:39:52 -0700, somebody wrote:

> Music isn't any worse or any better than it was or will be.

Oh, I disagree.  At least here in the US, the thing the record companies 
push is mainstream popular music.  It didn't always used to be that way...

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 14:00:27 +0000, Invisible wrote:

> Mike Raiford wrote:
> 
>>> Really? What makes you say that?
>>>
>>>
>> I understand your view of modern technology is an 8-track player with
>> mechanical radio buttons for station memory :). So I'll explain:
>> 
>> CDs are old fashioned because people buy and download their crap music
>> to their iPods now (those fashionable white boxes you see various
>> teenagers walking around with) Music on CD has gone the way of the LP
>> record. :)
> 
> Really? I wasn't aware it was possible to do that legally yet... oh,
> wait...

The complete LOTR soundtrack (the recent release) can be purchased for 
$22 on Amazon in a download-only format.  Then there's iTunes....

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 15:30:46 -0200, Nicolas Alvarez wrote:

> Invisible escribió:
>> Mike Raiford wrote:
>>> CDs are old fashioned because people buy and download their crap music
>>> to their iPods now (those fashionable white boxes you see various
>>> teenagers walking around with) Music on CD has gone the way of the LP
>>> record. :)
>> 
>> Really? I wasn't aware it was possible to do that legally yet... oh,
>> wait...
> 
> Yep, there's iTunes store and others, where you legally buy the digital
> files. With DRM of course...

Actually, I was surprised that the Amazon downloadable Complete LOTR 
soundtracks are in MP3 format.  I don't *think* there's any DRM involved 
(which was really surprising).

Jim

Post a reply to this message

nemesis wrote:
> Orchid XP v7 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>> Well, no, *obviously* I've heard their music.
> 
> good.  Now I don't know what amuses me the most:  that you can't distinguish
> their  styles or that even being aquainted to Bach you're still listening to
> that much crap from the recording industry...

I see. So if it's new, it is by definition poor quality?

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 12:30:32 -0500, Tim Cook wrote:

> Encryption, if it is decryptable, is therefore trivially decryptable?

If the content has to be decrypted in order to be used, then the answer 
is generally yes.  But not because of the algorithm used - most attacks 
don't attack the algorithm anymore, they attack the decryption mechanism.

For someone with the skills, extracting the necessary keys has become 
fairly trivial.  How long did it take for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray DVD 
encryption to be "broken"?

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:

>> So, what's in *your* CD collection?
> 
> Wagner's Ring (all four operas)
> Mozart early symphonies
> Beethoven symphonies
> Queen
> Enya
> The Eagles
> Mannheim Steamroller
> George Carlin
> Clannad
> A large number of movie soundtracks (Dracula, High Fidelity, LoTR)
> The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (all 5 radio series)
> Enigma
> Howard Hansen Symphonies
> Shostakovich
> 
> Quite a lot of other stuff as well, that's just a sample...

Predictably, I haven't heard of most of those. (My mum is very keen on 
Queen though. I like a few of their tracks, but overall it's just not my 
personal taste.)

Wait - there's a person on Earth apart from me who listens to Enigma? 
Woah...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 18:09:58 +0000, Orchid XP v7 wrote:

> nemesis wrote:
>> that's a huge big pile of ... ;)
> 
> Yes, that's roughly the response I was expecting. :-P
> 
>> Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Chopin and company are spread throughout my
>> CDs and brand-new HD...
> 
> I like Bach. I wouldn't recognise any of the others...

I think you'd recognize Eine Kleine Nachtmusik - probably just didn't 
know it was Mozart.  Beethoven, I think you'd probably recognise the 
major symphonies (5 & 9), and possibly the Moonlight Sonata.

Chopin, I'm actually hard-pressed to come up with a song off the top of 
my head - most of his works were piano IIRC, and I didn't play piano.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v7 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> I see. So if it's new, it is by definition poor quality?

Abba is not new.

Post a reply to this message

>> I see. So if it's new, it is by definition poor quality?
> 
> Abba is not new.

I didn't say that Abba was new. Or bad. You're the one saying my entire 
music collection sucks. :-P

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> Chopin, I'm actually hard-pressed to come up with a song off the top of
> my head - most of his works were piano IIRC, and I didn't play piano.

Chopin did not write songs:  mazurkas, valses, nocturnes, etudes and sonatas
were his main output.  You probably heard a lot of them, as well as the famous
funeral march movement from his second Sonata.

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 20:18:51 +0000, Orchid XP v7 wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
>>> So, what's in *your* CD collection?
>> 
>> Wagner's Ring (all four operas)
>> Mozart early symphonies
>> Beethoven symphonies
>> Queen
>> Enya
>> The Eagles
>> Mannheim Steamroller
>> George Carlin
>> Clannad
>> A large number of movie soundtracks (Dracula, High Fidelity, LoTR) The
>> Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (all 5 radio series) Enigma
>> Howard Hansen Symphonies
>> Shostakovich
>> 
>> Quite a lot of other stuff as well, that's just a sample...
> 
> Predictably, I haven't heard of most of those. (My mum is very keen on
> Queen though. I like a few of their tracks, but overall it's just not my
> personal taste.)

Most of them are classical composers.

> Wait - there's a person on Earth apart from me who listens to Enigma?
> Woah...

My brother introduced me.  I quite like it, though I haven't listened to 
it a lot.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 15:06:49 -0500, nemesis wrote:

> Orchid XP v7 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>> Well, no, *obviously* I've heard their music.
> 
> good.  Now I don't know what amuses me the most:  that you can't
> distinguish their  styles or that even being aquainted to Bach you're
> still listening to that much crap from the recording industry...

In fairness, early Mozart has a lot of the same elements that Bach does 
in terms of style, even though they're from different time periods.  Now 
to someone who doesn't listen to classical music a lot, those differences 
are going to be fairly difficult to spot.

Just like I couldn't tell you the stylistic differences between, say, 
Metallica and AC/DC.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 15:34:57 -0500, nemesis wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> Chopin, I'm actually hard-pressed to come up with a song off the top of
>> my head - most of his works were piano IIRC, and I didn't play piano.
> 
> Chopin did not write songs:  mazurkas, valses, nocturnes, etudes and
> sonatas were his main output.  

Well, yes, but you know what I mean. ;-)

> You probably heard a lot of them, as well
> as the famous funeral march movement from his second Sonata.

Ah, yes, I probably have.  Though I prefer the one from Gotterdammerung 
or something like Saint-Saens' Danse Macabe. :-)

Jim

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>> Predictably, I haven't heard of most of those.
> 
> Most of them are classical composers.

I do enjoy certain forms of orchestral music. However, from what I can 
tell, most classical music isn't really to my taste.

>> Wait - there's a person on Earth apart from me who listens to Enigma?
>> Woah...
> 
> My brother introduced me.  I quite like it, though I haven't listened to 
> it a lot.

My best friend introduced me. Before she stopped talking to me...

Every time I listen, I end up wanting to turn off the light, take a deep 
breath, and light candles. Actually, last time I *did* light candles... 
hmm. LOL!

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> > Orchid XP v7 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> >> Well, no, *obviously* I've heard their music.
> >
> > good.  Now I don't know what amuses me the most:  that you can't
> > distinguish their  styles or that even being aquainted to Bach you're
> > still listening to that much crap from the recording industry...
>
> In fairness, early Mozart has a lot of the same elements that Bach does
> in terms of style, even though they're from different time periods.

oh, wait!  The Bach were talking about is the father, right?  But yes, early
Mozart owes a lot to Christian.  And early Beethoven to Mozart.  Influences,
admiration, the search of their own style, it's always the same thing for all.

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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> Ah, yes, I probably have.  Though I prefer the one from Gotterdammerung

I heard that from opera excerpts.  It's ok, but it lacks Chopin's characteristic
melancholy.

> or something like Saint-Saens' Danse Macabre. :-)

that's better off as Halloween music... ;)

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I'm assuming a piano arrangement thereof rather than the original organ 
version requiring foot pedals?


Orchid XP v7 wrote:
> nemesis wrote:
> 
>> Yes, that's roughly the response I was expecting. :-P
> 
> I can play a large section of Bach's Toccata and Fuge in D minor from 
> memory, if that makes it any better?
>

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On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 16:16:22 -0500, nemesis wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> > Orchid XP v7 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>> >> Well, no, *obviously* I've heard their music.
>> >
>> > good.  Now I don't know what amuses me the most:  that you can't
>> > distinguish their  styles or that even being aquainted to Bach you're
>> > still listening to that much crap from the recording industry...
>>
>> In fairness, early Mozart has a lot of the same elements that Bach does
>> in terms of style, even though they're from different time periods.
> 
> oh, wait!  The Bach were talking about is the father, right?  

Well, J. S., but we could also be talking about C. P. E. Bach or even PDQ 
Bach (which is also in my collection <g>)

> But yes,
> early Mozart owes a lot to Christian.  And early Beethoven to Mozart. 
> Influences, admiration, the search of their own style, it's always the
> same thing for all.

Yep.  To the untrained ear, it can be hard to tell the difference.  I 
played violin for some 15 years, so I have a bit more musical education 
than Andy does, I imagine.  I imagine the case is similar for you.

Jim

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Kevin Wampler wrote:
> I'm assuming a piano arrangement thereof rather than the original organ 
> version requiring foot pedals?

>> I can play a large section of Bach's Toccata and Fuge in D minor from 
>> memory, if that makes it any better?

Er... well, you know, move the octaves around a little. ;-)

Actually, my synthesizer does have a quite good pipe organ preset. 
Obviously it doesn't shake the floor around like the real thing, but it 
sounds quite pleasing.

I also have a Moog synthesizer recording round here somewhere. It's 
really quite good. Although the tape is quite chewed up by now. As was 
the LP I recorded it from. Damn, if only the thing was still on sale...

Every time I try to play that thing, I find myself trying to figure out 
if Bach was a madman or a genius. Seriously - how the hell did he 
*think* of this stuff??

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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