Orchid XP v7 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> Random snippet: I remember when the school orchestra performed Ode To
> Joy. (Don't ask me who wrote that.)

please, man...  Whenever you don't know something, do yourself and everyone a
favor and be more curious about it; look it up somewhere.

But I told you you knew Beethoven...

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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 20:46:46 +0000, Orchid XP v7 wrote:
> > Random snippet: I remember when the school orchestra performed Ode To
> > Joy. (Don't ask me who wrote that.)
>
> Beethoven used it in the last movement of the 9th Symphony, but it's a
> traditional tune, and I don't know if the authorship is even known.  The
> words were written by Friedrich Schiller (a poet) in 1785, but it's been
> used in music since 1786; Beethoven's use (the best known) is just one of
> many uses in music.  Even Tchaikovsky used it (which I didn't know).

hmm, you say it's a traditional tune (melody) but I've never heard of that.  I
know after Schiller wrote it, many musicians created music for the words, but I
think the melody in the 9th is definitely from Beethoven.  I searched wikipedia
and this:
http://europa.eu/abc/symbols/anthem/index_en.htm

the EU anthem is based on the 9th's Ode to Joy.

is it true it's a traditional tune from before the 9th?

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Orchid XP v7 escribió:
> Oh, sure, because *one* person who lives in Britain doesn't like 
> classical music all that much, the whole country must be like that. ;-)

Yeah nemesis, not all UK is as ignorant as Orchid.

Err... did I type that out loud?

;)

(don't harm me, Andrew)

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Orchid XP v7 wrote:
> My favourite TMBG album has got to be Factory Showroom or Spines. As for 
> other guys... if you haven't heard Tangerine Dream, give it a whirl. If 
> you enjoy crazy synthesizer music, that is...

I have actually heard some Tangerine Dream, though I don't actually own 
any of their music.  As I recall I enjoyed it, perhaps I'll take another 
look.

> I have run into the name "Mogwai" several times though. I have no idea 
> what that sounds like.

It's post rock, so the musical content tends to be built up by slowly 
evolving repetitive patterns.  Sort of like Radiohead but more so, and 
with a bit more emphasis on drums and less on voice.  They're good 
though, and the repetitive nature makes it good music to work to.  If 
that's a bit hard to picture, you can listen to some of their tracks here:

http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=1641

If you do like it, I'd also recommend Sigur Ros.


> Similarly, every time I go into a music shop I 
> find myself wanting to by YES albums just to look at the pictures... no 
> idea what the music sounds like.

Conveniently, the same site also has some tracks by Yes:

http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=105

I'd say that "Close to the Edge"  Is my favorite song listed there, if 
you're only going to listen to one.

On a very related note, www.progarchives.com is a great site to find new 
progressive rock artists, as it will generally include both reviews and 
sample tracks for each band.  You could start at this page:

http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive-rock.asp

which should list the major bands from each subgenre and then go to the 
pages for them to listen to some of their songs.  Also, this page is a 
very good one to look at if you're interested:

http://www.progarchives.com/top-prog-albums.asp

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nemesis wrote:
> Orchid XP v7 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>> Random snippet: I remember when the school orchestra performed Ode To
>> Joy. (Don't ask me who wrote that.)
> 
> please, man...  Whenever you don't know something, do yourself and everyone a
> favor and be more curious about it; look it up somewhere.

Hey, it was probably written on the score. I just don't *remember* any 
more. ;-)

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Nicolas Alvarez wrote:

> (don't harm me, Andrew)

OK, sure. 0:-)
























muhuhuuhhuh...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Gilles Tran wrote:

> There's no much point in watching The Rocky Horror Picture Show if you're 
> not in a theater with dozens of guys (and girls) in garter belts and panty 
> hoses throwing rice and water and shouting every line before they appear on 
> screen. If you ever find yourself in Paris, go to the Studio Galande either 
> on Friday or Saturday.
> http://90plan.ovh.net/~rocky/frame.html?id=0}

Er... o_O

*backs away slowly*

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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nemesis wrote:

> Yes, it's just that few people really do love music for the music itself.  Many
> associate certain music to special occasions in their lives and that's why they
> enjoy it foremost.  Many just enjoy music as a way to get together with other
> people.  Few have pleasure with just paying attention to it and marvel at the
> heartpounding transformations and transfigurations...

I'm one of those few. [Well, for sufficiently good music anyway.]

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Kevin Wampler wrote:

> I have actually heard some Tangerine Dream, though I don't actually own 
> any of their music.  As I recall I enjoyed it, perhaps I'll take another 
> look.

My personal favourit is the impronouncible "Force Majeure". It's also 
the leasst progressive and most "tune-like" album. But then again, 
"Canayon Dreams" is rather good too. And don't forget Rubycon (although 
it's a very short album). In fact, hell, there are too many great albums 
to list...

[Especially amusing is that some of them are live AND I DIDN'T NOTICE!]

>> I have run into the name "Mogwai" several times though. I have no idea 
>> what that sounds like.
> 
> It's post rock, so the musical content tends to be built up by slowly 
> evolving repetitive patterns.  Sort of like Radiohead but more so, and 
> with a bit more emphasis on drums and less on voice.  They're good 
> though, and the repetitive nature makes it good music to work to.  If 
> that's a bit hard to picture, you can listen to some of their tracks here:
> 
> http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=1641

Don't know Radiohead. [Obviously I've heard of them, and I've probably 
heard their music, but I wouldn't recognise it.]

Hmm... this isn't really my taste.

>> Similarly, every time I go into a music shop I find myself wanting to 
>> by YES albums just to look at the pictures... no idea what the music 
>> sounds like.
> 
> Conveniently, the same site also has some tracks by Yes:
> 
> http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=105

This is a little more like it...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 16:47:22 +0100, Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:
> 
>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 23:20:53 +0100, Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>> Actually, I was surprised that the Amazon downloadable Complete LOTR
>>>>> soundtracks are in MP3 format.  I don't *think* there's any DRM
>>>>> involved (which was really surprising).
>>>> But maybe they can tell who bought the mp3 file by looking at it...
>>>>
>>>> http://www.google.com/search?q=mp3+watermark+amazon
>>> I'm sure they probably can.  That's a bit different than DRM, though,
>>> which has the explicit stated goal of preventing people from
>>> "inappropriate use".  Watermarking allows them to act reactivley - and
>>> I believe is fairly easy to remove anyways...
>>>
>>> mplayer -ao pcm:file=temp.wav file.mp3 lame -h temp.wav
>>> file-without-watermark.mp3
>> Yes, but then you assume that the watermarking is done on the bit-level.
>>
>> What if they change the music somewhat in a way that will survive format
>> conversion ? (E.g. tiny changes in volume levels within a frequency
>> band, small phase shifts, changes in the dynamic range, added noise or a
>> combination of some of these.)
>>
>> There will only have to be minor changes to the sound, as they will only
>> have to encode something like e.g. 30 bits into more than 100s of sound
>> in 2 channels.
> 
> I'd think that the conversion back and forth would modify an attempt like 
> this enough.  Remember that mp3 encoding is lossy, not lossless.

Yes, I know. And to overcome that, just don't make the changes to the
sound THAT small.


> Of course, though, the best option is to not give the files away.

=)

-- 
Tor Olav
http://subcube.com

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"Orchid XP v7" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:47adf2e9$1@news.povray.org...
> andrel wrote:
> > Orchid XP v7 wrote:
> >>
> >> Ever heard a Persian guy sing "Amazing Grace"? That song is boring at
> >> the best of times...
> >>
> > just to be sure, we are talking about this boring piece?
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pK4PtJiOPE
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3XdXEJEI4E
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHpye0M34JQ
>
> Yes, that one.
>
> (And trust me, even the most interesting song sounds boring when played
> on a guitar using 3 chords and a flat strumming rhythem. So when you
> start with a boring song in the first place... Not Good.)

On a completely different note, I like Victor Wootens version  =)
I like to call it "Amazing Bass" ;]

-Nekar

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"Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote in message
news:47ae0e32$1@news.povray.org...
> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 08:08:06 +0000, Orchid XP v7 wrote:
>
> > Jim Henderson wrote:
> >
> >> You played violin?  That's cool. :-)
> >>
> >> Did you just take lessons in school, or private lessons, or self-study?
> >
> > All students at my school were required to learn violin and recorder.
> > But then the music teacher retired, and the music lessens stopped.
> > Eventually they found a replacement, but we only learned how to play
> > electronic keyboard [or rather, how to call up the autobacking]. Oh, and
> > guitar. Ever heard a Persian guy sing "Amazing Grace"? That song is
> > boring at the best of times...
>
> Interesting; I was going to say that I had never heard of a school doing
> that, but we were required to learn recorder, autoharp, and to sing in
> the choir.
>
> > Interesting fact: When *you* play a violin, it sounds nothing like what
> > you hear on the TV. It sounds like somebody dragging a strip of horse
> > hair over a cheese wire. (Which, actually, is what it is.) I always
> > assumed my violin was just naff. But then one day the teacher is, like,
> > "no no Andrew, that F is flat. Give me that!" She takes my violin and
> > plays what I had just been playing. Except it sounds amazing.
> >
> > Um, OK. So it's *me* that's naff. :-|
>
> No, it just takes practice - years of practice - to get good sound out of
> an instrument (doesn't matter what).  I can make my violin make horrible
> sounds as well - it has to do with getting the right pressure and speed
> of the bow across the strings - too much pressure and not enough speed,
> and it sounds exactly like you described.
>
It also depends on the type of instrument. I would say a good violinist
needs to have aquired perfect pitch. If andrew played the piano the same way
he played the violin it would sound ten times better. I would say frettless
stringed instruments are the most difficult to learn.

-Nekar

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Tor Olav Kristensen escribió:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 16:47:22 +0100, Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:
>>
>>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 23:20:53 +0100, Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> Actually, I was surprised that the Amazon downloadable Complete LOTR
>>>>>> soundtracks are in MP3 format.  I don't *think* there's any DRM
>>>>>> involved (which was really surprising).
>>>>> But maybe they can tell who bought the mp3 file by looking at it...
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.google.com/search?q=mp3+watermark+amazon
>>>> I'm sure they probably can.  That's a bit different than DRM, though,
>>>> which has the explicit stated goal of preventing people from
>>>> "inappropriate use".  Watermarking allows them to act reactivley - and
>>>> I believe is fairly easy to remove anyways...
>>>>
>>>> mplayer -ao pcm:file=temp.wav file.mp3 lame -h temp.wav
>>>> file-without-watermark.mp3
>>> Yes, but then you assume that the watermarking is done on the bit-level.
>>>
>>> What if they change the music somewhat in a way that will survive format
>>> conversion ? (E.g. tiny changes in volume levels within a frequency
>>> band, small phase shifts, changes in the dynamic range, added noise or a
>>> combination of some of these.)
>>>
>>> There will only have to be minor changes to the sound, as they will only
>>> have to encode something like e.g. 30 bits into more than 100s of sound
>>> in 2 channels.
>> I'd think that the conversion back and forth would modify an attempt like 
>> this enough.  Remember that mp3 encoding is lossy, not lossless.
> 
> Yes, I know. And to overcome that, just don't make the changes to the
> sound THAT small.

Yeah, encode the username in the lyrics. Hey, I can hear my name if I 
play this song backwards!

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Nekar wrote:

> I would say frettless
> stringed instruments are the most difficult to learn.

Ain't that the truth!

Still, it's not *so* hard after enough practice. The hard thing is that 
the top E string is like cheese wire. You can *hurt* yourself on that 
thing! o_O

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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"Orchid XP v7" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:47af2886$1@news.povray.org...
> Nekar wrote:
>
> > I would say frettless
> > stringed instruments are the most difficult to learn.
>
> Ain't that the truth!
>
> Still, it's not *so* hard after enough practice. The hard thing is that
> the top E string is like cheese wire. You can *hurt* yourself on that
> thing! o_O
>
It sounds like you played the cheese to the e-string once  ;'>
eee-eee-KA-TWANK!
=:'o

My 10yr old son Duen is lucky enough to have violin lessons at school. His
teacher said he has natural talent and the potential to become one of the
best violinists or a conductor. He wanted to play lead guitar but I told him
I will teach him when he can play Paganini's 5th Caprice   =;)

I'm also planning on having my dads old violin fixed up to help inspire him.
But what I really want to play is contra-bass... Maybe one day when I have
enough money....

-Nekar

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Orchid XP v7 wrote:
> Don't know Radiohead. [Obviously I've heard of them, and I've probably 
> heard their music, but I wouldn't recognise it.]
> 
> Hmm... this isn't really my taste.

I'm surprised, I must say.  They're different enough that you you 
shouldn't discount them because you don't like Mogwai (and Radiohead 
also has a larger range of styles).

>> Conveniently, the same site also has some tracks by Yes:
>>
>> http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=105
> 
> This is a little more like it...

Most of the other top prog albums listed in the site I linked will be in 
a style more similar to this, so it might be worth taking a look at some 
of the bands that keep appearing (Genesis, King Crimson, Van Der Graff 
Generator, etc.)

I'd like to know of modern music that continues in this tradition, but 
there's only a couple of bands that I can think of that that are doing 
something even remotely similar, and their music tends to be a lot 
"heavier".  I'm sure with a bit more looking I'll find some though, 
there's plenty enough bands out there to get a nice range of styles.

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Nicolas Alvarez wrote:
> Tor Olav Kristensen escribió:
>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 16:47:22 +0100, Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 23:20:53 +0100, Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> Actually, I was surprised that the Amazon downloadable Complete LOTR
>>>>>>> soundtracks are in MP3 format.  I don't *think* there's any DRM
>>>>>>> involved (which was really surprising).
>>>>>> But maybe they can tell who bought the mp3 file by looking at it...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.google.com/search?q=mp3+watermark+amazon
>>>>> I'm sure they probably can.  That's a bit different than DRM, though,
>>>>> which has the explicit stated goal of preventing people from
>>>>> "inappropriate use".  Watermarking allows them to act reactivley - and
>>>>> I believe is fairly easy to remove anyways...
>>>>>
>>>>> mplayer -ao pcm:file=temp.wav file.mp3 lame -h temp.wav
>>>>> file-without-watermark.mp3
>>>> Yes, but then you assume that the watermarking is done on the 
>>>> bit-level.
>>>>
>>>> What if they change the music somewhat in a way that will survive 
>>>> format
>>>> conversion ? (E.g. tiny changes in volume levels within a frequency
>>>> band, small phase shifts, changes in the dynamic range, added noise 
>>>> or a
>>>> combination of some of these.)
>>>>
>>>> There will only have to be minor changes to the sound, as they will 
>>>> only
>>>> have to encode something like e.g. 30 bits into more than 100s of sound
>>>> in 2 channels.
>>> I'd think that the conversion back and forth would modify an attempt 
>>> like this enough.  Remember that mp3 encoding is lossy, not lossless.
>>
>> Yes, I know. And to overcome that, just don't make the changes to the
>> sound THAT small.
> 
> Yeah, encode the username in the lyrics. Hey, I can hear my name if I 
> play this song backwards!

=)

-- 
Tor Olav
http://subcube.com

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On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:57:54 +0100, Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:

>> I'd think that the conversion back and forth would modify an attempt
>> like this enough.  Remember that mp3 encoding is lossy, not lossless.
> 
> Yes, I know. And to overcome that, just don't make the changes to the
> sound THAT small.

The thing is, the watermark, in order to be meaningful, would have to re-
encode exactly the same way.  Otherwise, you end up with a scrambled 
watermark.  So you can maybe tell it was there, but not what it was.

Jim

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On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 19:05:02 -0500, nemesis wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 20:46:46 +0000, Orchid XP v7 wrote:
>> > Random snippet: I remember when the school orchestra performed Ode To
>> > Joy. (Don't ask me who wrote that.)
>>
>> Beethoven used it in the last movement of the 9th Symphony, but it's a
>> traditional tune, and I don't know if the authorship is even known. 
>> The words were written by Friedrich Schiller (a poet) in 1785, but it's
>> been used in music since 1786; Beethoven's use (the best known) is just
>> one of many uses in music.  Even Tchaikovsky used it (which I didn't
>> know).
> 
> hmm, you say it's a traditional tune (melody) but I've never heard of
> that.  I know after Schiller wrote it, many musicians created music for
> the words, but I think the melody in the 9th is definitely from
> Beethoven.  I searched wikipedia and this:
> http://europa.eu/abc/symbols/anthem/index_en.htm
> 
> the EU anthem is based on the 9th's Ode to Joy.
> 
> is it true it's a traditional tune from before the 9th?

That's what I recall from a music history class I took years ago.  I 
might be thinking of something else (perhaps "Simple Gifts" from 
Appalachian Spring).

Jim

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On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:58:24 +0200, Nekar wrote:

> It also depends on the type of instrument. I would say a good violinist
> needs to have aquired perfect pitch. 

Intonation is certainly important.  But that doesn't affect the tonal 
quality of the instrument so much.

> If andrew played the piano the same
> way he played the violin it would sound ten times better. 

Possibly the other way around, you mean. :-)

> I would say
> frettless stringed instruments are the most difficult to learn.

I always had trouble with the piano.  I never took lessons, though, but 
my brother did, and I learned to play one or two simple songs; but my 
left hand doesn't work the right way to play the piano, and my right hand 
is basically stupid - odd, considering I'm right-handled. :-)

But getting things at the right pitch does take some work.

Jim

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On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:38:35 +0000, Orchid XP v7 wrote:

> Nekar wrote:
> 
>> I would say frettless
>> stringed instruments are the most difficult to learn.
> 
> Ain't that the truth!
> 
> Still, it's not *so* hard after enough practice. The hard thing is that
> the top E string is like cheese wire. You can *hurt* yourself on that
> thing! o_O

That's one of the reasons I've not gotten back into it - no callouses any 
more on my fingers...

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 18:40:02 -0500, nemesis wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 05:06:36 -0500, nemesis wrote:
>> > no, no, no.  Try to love the music for the music itself.  Programme
>> > music is so démodé...
>>
>> I have to disagree - you can love music for any number of reasons.
> 
> Yes, it's just that few people really do love music for the music
> itself.  

For me it depends on the piece.  Some pieces, like Bach's Toccata & Fugue 
are fantastic pieces in their own right.  As you say, the mathematical 
constructs are truly incredible.

But at the same time, I'd listen to Moscow Nights because it's a song we 
played on the aforementioned concert tour, and the audiences loved it.  I 
don't have a copy of that one (other than our orchestral recording from 
the tour), but I can still hear it in my head and remember things like 
getting lost at the Hermitage museum in Leningrad.

> Many associate certain music to special occasions in their
> lives and that's why they enjoy it foremost.  Many just enjoy music as a
> way to get together with other people.  Few have pleasure with just
> paying attention to it and marvel at the heartpounding transformations
> and transfigurations...

Well, certainly one of the most breathtaking pieces of music ever written 
is Barber's Adagio for Strings; most people associate it with the film 
_Platoon_, but I think even most people who listen to it who are familiar 
with the film can get behind the sheer intensity of the work.  That's 
another one we played in the USSR, and I can tell you from personal 
experience that there is *nothing* like playing that piece - particularly 
in the rain at Gorky Park.  While I'm not (as you know from previous 
discussions) a particularly religious person, that experience alone was 
one of the most moving and breathtaking performances I've ever taken part 
in.  It was truly as if the sky opened up and wept.

It's a pity the rain was significant enough that only 3 or 4 remained in 
the audience by the time we finished playing it (after 3 starts that had 
to be aborted because of the rain - string instruments are assembled 
using water-soluble glue, and on the final attempt we eventually had to 
inch the string sections back under the bandshell).

> the most abstract art is also the least really appreciated one...

I don't think that it's unappreciated or even least appreciated; it's 
just appreciated in more ways than a physical or visual art form.  An 
aural medium bypasses the optic nerve and engages the imagination, if the 
audio is compelling enough.

Jim

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On 9 Feb 2008 15:39:13 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>I played in a youth orchestra when I was in high school, and the 
>conductor was having trouble getting us to learn the Symphonie 
>Fantastique,

LOL
When it was written, the professional musicians of the time hated it. It was too
difficult for them. Thirteen timpani detuned to get the effect Berlioz wanted in
the march to the scaffold IIRC.

Regards
	Stephen

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On 9 Feb 2008 15:46:28 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 09:49:37 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>
>> 11CDs SHOSTAKOVICH Complete Symphonies 1-15 Barshai 
>
>I got the 10th as I was looking for a recording of the Festival Overture 
>and it was on that disc.  Third movement brings a vivid image to me of a 
>horse-drawn sleigh being pulled quickly across a snowy field for some 
>reason.
>

That's my wife's I'll probably be out of the room or even the house, when she
listens to it :)


>How are the others?
>

So far so good

>> CD DVORAK Complete Slavonic Dances Op 46, Op 72 RoyalPO 
>> 2CDs DVORAK Slavonic Dances & Other Music for PianoDuet
>
>Now there's something I haven't heard in ages - I think I've only got 
>those on cassette (and sheet music for violin solo at that).  I'd 
>forgotten about those almost entirely.
>
I've not got round to these yet. In fact I've got a backlog that is quite long
:(

Regards
	Stephen

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> More precisely: The encryption *must* be removed in order to *play* the 
> music. Therefore, this encryption must be trivially breakable,

Read the first post in this thread, which explains the basics of encryption 
on HD movie discs:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=122363

Now tell me (and everyone on that forum) that it's trivial to break :-)

Post a reply to this message

> For someone with the skills, extracting the necessary keys has become
> fairly trivial.  How long did it take for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray DVD
> encryption to be "broken"?

Exactly, and it hasn't even been properly "broken" in the sense Andrew 
means.

Post a reply to this message

On Sat,  9 Feb 2008 05:29:22 EST, "nemesis" <nam### [at] gmailcom> wrote:

>Stephen <mcavoysATaolDOTcom@> wrote:
>> >"I wouldn't recognise any of the others", the other being Beethoven and Mozart.
>> >Come on!  Even the chinese behind the Great Wall know Beethoven and Mozart!!
>>
>> Sadly this view is all too common in Britain :(
>
>I thought so.  Perhaps just Elgar, Handel, Johann Christian Bach, Haydn and a
>few others who actually went to England are appreciated, which is a shame.

I hay have given you the wrong impression. They are a lot of music lovers here
who would put the best of us to shame. :)

>Perhaps the British should come out of their hobbit-holes more often and see
>what a big world full of wonders it is out there...
>
>
Did we not visit your part of the world with our armies? No! then it must not
have been worth it ;-)
As I remember it was a Brit who found the Hobbits and the wraiths :)

Regards
	Stephen

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Stephen <mcavoysATaolDOTcom@> wrote:
> On Sat,  9 Feb 2008 05:29:22 EST, "nemesis" <nam### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> >Perhaps the British should come out of their hobbit-holes more often and see
> >what a big world full of wonders it is out there...
> >
> Did we not visit your part of the world with our armies?

wonders are to be amazed at.  Not conquered or destroyed... ;)

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On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 15:31:30 EST, "nemesis" <nam### [at] gmailcom> wrote:

>wonders are to be amazed at.  Not conquered or destroyed... ;)

True

Regards
	Stephen

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:57:54 +0100, Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:
> 
>>> I'd think that the conversion back and forth would modify an attempt
>>> like this enough.  Remember that mp3 encoding is lossy, not lossless.
>> Yes, I know. And to overcome that, just don't make the changes to the
>> sound THAT small.
> 
> The thing is, the watermark, in order to be meaningful, would have to re-
> encode exactly the same way.  Otherwise, you end up with a scrambled 
> watermark.  So you can maybe tell it was there, but not what it was.

Redundancy. Error correction codes.

-- 
Tor Olav
http://subcube.com

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On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 09:50:45 +0100, scott wrote:

>> For someone with the skills, extracting the necessary keys has become
>> fairly trivial.  How long did it take for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray DVD
>> encryption to be "broken"?
> 
> Exactly, and it hasn't even been properly "broken" in the sense Andrew
> means.

Precisely - the result is the important thing.

Jim

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On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 22:22:24 +0100, Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:57:54 +0100, Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:
>> 
>>>> I'd think that the conversion back and forth would modify an attempt
>>>> like this enough.  Remember that mp3 encoding is lossy, not lossless.
>>> Yes, I know. And to overcome that, just don't make the changes to the
>>> sound THAT small.
>> 
>> The thing is, the watermark, in order to be meaningful, would have to
>> re- encode exactly the same way.  Otherwise, you end up with a
>> scrambled watermark.  So you can maybe tell it was there, but not what
>> it was.
> 
> Redundancy. Error correction codes.

I don't think that helps from the point of converting and then re-
encoding.

Jim

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On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:30:34 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 9 Feb 2008 15:39:13 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
>>I played in a youth orchestra when I was in high school, and the
>>conductor was having trouble getting us to learn the Symphonie
>>Fantastique,
> 
> LOL
> When it was written, the professional musicians of the time hated it. It
> was too difficult for them. Thirteen timpani detuned to get the effect
> Berlioz wanted in the march to the scaffold IIRC.

It's not surprising; it is a fairly difficult piece; and if you think the 
march effect was tough, you ain't seen the violin bit for the start of 
the 5th movement. ;-)

Jim

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On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:35:20 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 9 Feb 2008 15:46:28 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
>>On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 09:49:37 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>>
>>> 11CDs SHOSTAKOVICH Complete Symphonies 1-15 Barshai
>>
>>I got the 10th as I was looking for a recording of the Festival Overture
>>and it was on that disc.  Third movement brings a vivid image to me of a
>>horse-drawn sleigh being pulled quickly across a snowy field for some
>>reason.
>>
>>
> That's my wife's I'll probably be out of the room or even the house,
> when she listens to it :)

:-)

>>How are the others?
>>
>>
> So far so good

Cool.  I had wondered; I like Shostakovich, but he does tend towards 
modern in his sound, and sometimes that doesn't work for me.

>>> CD DVORAK Complete Slavonic Dances Op 46, Op 72 RoyalPO 2CDs DVORAK
>>> Slavonic Dances & Other Music for PianoDuet
>>
>>Now there's something I haven't heard in ages - I think I've only got
>>those on cassette (and sheet music for violin solo at that).  I'd
>>forgotten about those almost entirely.
>>
> I've not got round to these yet. In fact I've got a backlog that is
> quite long :(

Same here...

Right now still trying to get through the complete scores from all 3 LOTR 
films.  Finished TTT yesterday, now going through FOTR.

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> The thing is, the watermark, in order to be meaningful, would have to re-
> encode exactly the same way. 

No it wouldn't. People work on watermarks all the time that don't need 
precise reencoding.

Xerox worked on systems for watermarking documents that would survive 
being photocopied at the wrong size and then faxed, for example.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     On what day did God create the body thetans?

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On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:48:21 -0800, Darren New wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> The thing is, the watermark, in order to be meaningful, would have to
>> re- encode exactly the same way.
> 
> No it wouldn't. People work on watermarks all the time that don't need
> precise reencoding.
> 
> Xerox worked on systems for watermarking documents that would survive
> being photocopied at the wrong size and then faxed, for example.

I'm trying to see how that would work in a sound file, though.  Visual 
watermarks are generally a different matter.

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> I'm trying to see how that would work in a sound file, though. 

Futz with the analog before you encode it the first time. It's going to 
be more audible that one that wouldn't survive recodings, but if you 
want a watermark that survives being played out a speaker and 
re-recorded, that's what you need.

I don't know enough about the physics of it to know how to do it, but I 
know it's been done (and broken) multiple times.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     On what day did God create the body thetans?

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On 11 Feb 2008 19:11:15 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>
>It's not surprising; it is a fairly difficult piece; and if you think the 
>march effect was tough, you ain't seen the violin bit for the start of 
>the 5th movement. ;-)

No I've not and even if I had I wouldn't understand it. One of my biggest
disappointments in life is that I have no singing voice and can't keep time. :(
I march to the beat of a different drum, as they say :)

Regards
	Stephen

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On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 20:35:18 -0800, Darren New wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> I'm trying to see how that would work in a sound file, though.
> 
> Futz with the analog before you encode it the first time. It's going to
> be more audible that one that wouldn't survive recodings, but if you
> want a watermark that survives being played out a speaker and
> re-recorded, that's what you need.
> 
> I don't know enough about the physics of it to know how to do it, but I
> know it's been done (and broken) multiple times.

Huh, I wouldn't have thought it could be done...too many variables..

Jim

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On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 08:36:11 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 11 Feb 2008 19:11:15 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
> 
>>It's not surprising; it is a fairly difficult piece; and if you think
>>the march effect was tough, you ain't seen the violin bit for the start
>>of the 5th movement. ;-)
> 
> No I've not and even if I had I wouldn't understand it. One of my
> biggest disappointments in life is that I have no singing voice and
> can't keep time. :( I march to the beat of a different drum, as they say
> :)

Well, my violin teacher always said I couldn't count my way out of a wet 
paper bag.  (My sense of timing is pretty bad, but I still managed to be 
pretty good even if I do say so myself <g>).

Jim

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On 12 Feb 2008 17:14:39 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>
>Well, my violin teacher always said I couldn't count my way out of a wet 
>paper bag.  (My sense of timing is pretty bad, but I still managed to be 
>pretty good even if I do say so myself <g>).

I can get a recognisable tune out of a tin whistle but when I played the pipes I
couldn't do it in a band. :(

Regards
	Stephen

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On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 22:37:09 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 12 Feb 2008 17:14:39 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Well, my violin teacher always said I couldn't count my way out of a wet
>>paper bag.  (My sense of timing is pretty bad, but I still managed to be
>>pretty good even if I do say so myself <g>).
> 
> I can get a recognisable tune out of a tin whistle but when I played the
> pipes I couldn't do it in a band. :(

Now that's something I never tried. (Both things, that is)

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> That's what I recall from a music history class I took years ago.  I 
> might be thinking of something else (perhaps "Simple Gifts" from 
> Appalachian Spring).

That would make sense since it was definitely based on a shaker tune. 
One of my favorite "folk" tunes to be honest (folk in quotes since it's 
not all *that* old).  Copland's use of it is very nice too.

It is interesting though that there'll occasionally be a classical tune 
that I later learn actually originated in a folk song.

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On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 18:43:37 -0800, Kevin Wampler
<wampler+pov### [at] uwashingtonedu> wrote:

>Jim Henderson wrote:
>> That's what I recall from a music history class I took years ago.  I 
>> might be thinking of something else (perhaps "Simple Gifts" from 
>> Appalachian Spring).
>
>That would make sense since it was definitely based on a shaker tune. 
>One of my favorite "folk" tunes to be honest (folk in quotes since it's 
>not all *that* old).  Copland's use of it is very nice too.
>
>It is interesting though that there'll occasionally be a classical tune 
>that I later learn actually originated in a folk song.

It is a bit of a paradox that a song that starts "It's a gift to be simple …"
can be changed into a complex classical piece. :) I do like Copland's version.
There was also a fashion for composers to write variations of folk music in the
classical period. Irish and Scottish songs got a makeover from the likes of
Beethoven and Weber etc.


Regards
	Stephen

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Stephen <mcavoysATaolDOTcom@> wrote:
> There was also a fashion for composers to write variations of folk music in the
> classical period. Irish and Scottish songs got a makeover from the likes of
> Beethoven and Weber etc.

yeah, composers taking simple melodies and working on them is not something new.
 Some say nationalism in music really began with Bartók, but Haydn, Liszt,
Brahms and folks always worked on folk music.

of course, such widespread musical practice of making whole works on simple
known melodies has no place in today's trademarked, copyrighted and DRMed
record-label-driven world, unless you get a license.

BTW, Firefox and Thunderbird are truly funny:  they correctly spell check
classical composers names, but can't seem to bother with their own spelling...
:P

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On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 18:43:37 -0800, Kevin Wampler wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> That's what I recall from a music history class I took years ago.  I
>> might be thinking of something else (perhaps "Simple Gifts" from
>> Appalachian Spring).
> 
> That would make sense since it was definitely based on a shaker tune.
> One of my favorite "folk" tunes to be honest (folk in quotes since it's
> not all *that* old).  Copland's use of it is very nice too.

Yes, I do rather like Copland's work (in general) and that particular 
song in particular.

> It is interesting though that there'll occasionally be a classical tune
> that I later learn actually originated in a folk song.

Yeah, that's a nice thing to hear.  I'm often surprised by the number of 
works that include some variation of the Dies Irae, for example.

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> Yeah, that's a nice thing to hear.  I'm often surprised by the number of 
> works that include some variation of the Dies Irae, for example.

Heh, yeah it does somehow manage to find its way into a lot of works. 
It seems to be one of the few themes which is regularly used by many 
different composers as a part of a work (as opposed to a folk tune which 
will generally not be so widely used).  Come to think of it I can't 
think of any other musical themes like this.  The closest I can recall 
offhand is the BACH theme, but as far as I know that's not nearly so 
widely used as the Dies Irae.

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On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:21:21 -0800, Kevin Wampler wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Yeah, that's a nice thing to hear.  I'm often surprised by the number
>> of works that include some variation of the Dies Irae, for example.
> 
> Heh, yeah it does somehow manage to find its way into a lot of works. It
> seems to be one of the few themes which is regularly used by many
> different composers as a part of a work (as opposed to a folk tune which
> will generally not be so widely used).  Come to think of it I can't
> think of any other musical themes like this.  The closest I can recall
> offhand is the BACH theme, but as far as I know that's not nearly so
> widely used as the Dies Irae.

There is the bass theme that Tchaikovsky uses in a lot of his works 
(March Slav, 1812 Overture, I think Cappricio Italien uses it as well) - 
he's not the only one who uses it, but also not as widely used.

Of course, for a real wild ride, you need to listen to the 1712 Overture 
by PDQ Bach.

Jim

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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> Of course, for a real wild ride, you need to listen to the 1712 Overture
> by PDQ Bach.

ah, PDQ... poor untalented offspring of the great composer... :)

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On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:13:07 -0500, nemesis wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> Of course, for a real wild ride, you need to listen to the 1712
>> Overture by PDQ Bach.
> 
> ah, PDQ... poor untalented offspring of the great composer... :)

Ah yes.  But then again, Schickele is something of a genius for what he 
did with PDQ's works.  Just shows what happens if you graduate from 
Juliard. ;-)

Jim

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