On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 16:47:22 +0100, Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 23:20:53 +0100, Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:
>> 
>>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> Actually, I was surprised that the Amazon downloadable Complete LOTR
>>>> soundtracks are in MP3 format.  I don't *think* there's any DRM
>>>> involved (which was really surprising).
>>> But maybe they can tell who bought the mp3 file by looking at it...
>>>
>>> http://www.google.com/search?q=mp3+watermark+amazon
>> 
>> I'm sure they probably can.  That's a bit different than DRM, though,
>> which has the explicit stated goal of preventing people from
>> "inappropriate use".  Watermarking allows them to act reactivley - and
>> I believe is fairly easy to remove anyways...
>> 
>> mplayer -ao pcm:file=temp.wav file.mp3 lame -h temp.wav
>> file-without-watermark.mp3
> 
> Yes, but then you assume that the watermarking is done on the bit-level.
> 
> What if they change the music somewhat in a way that will survive format
> conversion ? (E.g. tiny changes in volume levels within a frequency
> band, small phase shifts, changes in the dynamic range, added noise or a
> combination of some of these.)
> 
> There will only have to be minor changes to the sound, as they will only
> have to encode something like e.g. 30 bits into more than 100s of sound
> in 2 channels.

I'd think that the conversion back and forth would modify an attempt like 
this enough.  Remember that mp3 encoding is lossy, not lossless.

Of course, though, the best option is to not give the files away.

Jim

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On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 08:08:06 +0000, Orchid XP v7 wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
>> You played violin?  That's cool. :-)
>> 
>> Did you just take lessons in school, or private lessons, or self-study?
> 
> All students at my school were required to learn violin and recorder.
> But then the music teacher retired, and the music lessens stopped.
> Eventually they found a replacement, but we only learned how to play
> electronic keyboard [or rather, how to call up the autobacking]. Oh, and
> guitar. Ever heard a Persian guy sing "Amazing Grace"? That song is
> boring at the best of times...

Interesting; I was going to say that I had never heard of a school doing 
that, but we were required to learn recorder, autoharp, and to sing in 
the choir.

> Interesting fact: When *you* play a violin, it sounds nothing like what
> you hear on the TV. It sounds like somebody dragging a strip of horse
> hair over a cheese wire. (Which, actually, is what it is.) I always
> assumed my violin was just naff. But then one day the teacher is, like,
> "no no Andrew, that F is flat. Give me that!" She takes my violin and
> plays what I had just been playing. Except it sounds amazing.
>
> Um, OK. So it's *me* that's naff. :-|

No, it just takes practice - years of practice - to get good sound out of 
an instrument (doesn't matter what).  I can make my violin make horrible 
sounds as well - it has to do with getting the right pressure and speed 
of the bow across the strings - too much pressure and not enough speed, 
and it sounds exactly like you described.

There also is a factor of the instrument itself as well; each instrument 
has different tonal factors.  In my case, I had some work done on it a 
few years back, and the people doing the work dripped varnish inside the 
instrument and have very solidly attached the sound post to the top face 
of the instrument.  Going to cost about $400 to get it fixed, and it's 
unplayable in the condition it's in (the E string makes a horrible, 
horrible screeching sound whenever played).  And of course the guys who 
did the work have since gone out of business.

Jim

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On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 08:14:20 +0000, Orchid XP v7 wrote:

>>> I do enjoy certain forms of orchestral music. However, from what I can
>>> tell, most classical music isn't really to my taste.
>> 
>> Entirely possible, though I think it helps to know the story behind the
>> music - a lot of it tells a story.
> 
> Yeah, probably.

I played in a youth orchestra when I was in high school, and the 
conductor was having trouble getting us to learn the Symphonie 
Fantastique, so he told us the background story.  That really did 
motivate us.

>>> Every time I listen, I end up wanting to turn off the light, take a
>>> deep breath, and light candles. Actually, last time I *did* light
>>> candles... hmm. LOL!
>> 
>> Which album or albums do you have?
> 
> MCMXC AD, The Cross of Changes, Le Roi est mort, vive lr Roi, The Screen
> Behind the Mirror, LSD, Voyageur, A Posterioiri. I also have the DVD
> Remember the Future.

Cross of Changes is the one I have; I was looking at a few others at he 
used CD store the other day, but wasn't sure if they were similar in 
style or not - I've been bitten a few times by having one really cool 
disc from someone and buying another (or having one gifted, more often) 
and finding out that the one I have is the exceptional one.  Satriani was 
like that for me.

How are the other discs?

Jim

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On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 05:06:36 -0500, nemesis wrote:

> Orchid XP v7 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>> > Entirely possible, though I think it helps to know the story behind
>> > the music - a lot of it tells a story.
>>
>> Yeah, probably.
> 
> no, no, no.  Try to love the music for the music itself.  Programme
> music is so démodé...

I have to disagree - you can love music for any number of reasons.

> Music is the art of transformation.  It's math that pleases the ears and
> the soul.  The story it presents is entirely subjective from individual
> to individual.

This is certainly true, though - you can hear stories even if there isn't 
one.  For example, there is one part of Mozart's Requiem that invokes for 
me a chase through the woods.  It was used in Amadeus, and oddly enough, 
the images they used were pretty close to what it invoked for me visually 
prior to seeing the film.

That was really cool.

Jim

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On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 08:23:41 +0000, Orchid XP v7 wrote:

> if you haven't heard Tangerine Dream, give it a whirl. If you enjoy
> crazy synthesizer music, that is...

Ah, yes, I've got some TD on my shelf as well.  The first track of one of 
the albums I've got is the promenade from Pictures at an Exhibition - 
another really great piece of music.  I think I've got 4 different 
recordings (two piano versions - which is what it was originally written 
for, and two different orchestrations).  There was a really cool thing 
they did at the Proms a few years ago, where they played the entire 
thing, but each movement was taken from a different orchestration.

Now I need to find that one....

Jim

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On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 09:49:37 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> 11CDs SHOSTAKOVICH Complete Symphonies 1-15 Barshai 

I got the 10th as I was looking for a recording of the Festival Overture 
and it was on that disc.  Third movement brings a vivid image to me of a 
horse-drawn sleigh being pulled quickly across a snowy field for some 
reason.

How are the others?

> CD DVORAK Complete Slavonic Dances Op 46, Op 72 RoyalPO 
> 2CDs DVORAK Slavonic Dances & Other Music for PianoDuet

Now there's something I haven't heard in ages - I think I've only got 
those on cassette (and sheet music for violin solo at that).  I'd 
forgotten about those almost entirely.

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:

> Interesting; I was going to say that I had never heard of a school doing 
> that, but we were required to learn recorder, autoharp, and to sing in 
> the choir.

I was *also* in the choir. You know, when we had one...

>> Um, OK. So it's *me* that's naff. :-|
> 
> No, it just takes practice - years of practice - to get good sound out of 
> an instrument (doesn't matter what).  I can make my violin make horrible 
> sounds as well - it has to do with getting the right pressure and speed 
> of the bow across the strings - too much pressure and not enough speed, 
> and it sounds exactly like you described.
> 
> There also is a factor of the instrument itself as well; each instrument 
> has different tonal factors.

Yeah, well... It's an *old*, cheap school violin. So I had assumed it 
was just naff. But like I said, the teacher had no trouble getting the 
most beautiful notes out of it, so it can't have been that busted...



Random snippet: I remember when the school orchestra performed Ode To 
Joy. (Don't ask me who wrote that.) Our teacher was very strict. She 
could tell I was playing the tune rather than reading the music, so she 
moved me from 1st violin to 3rd violin, because there is no way in hell 
you could play that from memory.

Anyway, the piece starts off telling you to play very softly. And then 
after a while it says play a little louder - but just a little. And then 
it's like... forte. [OK, I give the bow a little more elbow.]

Double-forte. [OK. I press down a bit harder and really *work* those 
strings.]

Triple-forte. [Uh... OK, let me bow a bit faster...]

QUADRUPLE-FORTE!! [Dude... what? This thing doesn't *go* any louder!!]

Still, with a couple of cellos and hons going - not to mention the music 
teacher taking the bottom notes of the school piano a lively workout - 
it sounded pretty damn good.

Fact: It's almost impossible to hold a violin comfortably while wearing 
a school blazer with huge shoulder pads... >_<

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Jim Henderson wrote:

>> Music is the art of transformation.  It's math that pleases the ears and
>> the soul.  The story it presents is entirely subjective from individual
>> to individual.
> 
> This is certainly true, though - you can hear stories even if there isn't 
> one.  For example, there is one part of Mozart's Requiem that invokes for 
> me a chase through the woods.  It was used in Amadeus, and oddly enough, 
> the images they used were pretty close to what it invoked for me visually 
> prior to seeing the film.
> 
> That was really cool.

I almost always find that when [if] I get to see the music video for my 
favorite tune, it looks nothing like what you'd expect. Oh well!

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 20:46:46 +0000, Orchid XP v7 wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
>> Interesting; I was going to say that I had never heard of a school
>> doing that, but we were required to learn recorder, autoharp, and to
>> sing in the choir.
> 
> I was *also* in the choir. You know, when we had one...

I couldn't sing to save my life.  I mostly didn't sing, just went through 
the motions.

>>> Um, OK. So it's *me* that's naff. :-|
>> 
>> No, it just takes practice - years of practice - to get good sound out
>> of an instrument (doesn't matter what).  I can make my violin make
>> horrible sounds as well - it has to do with getting the right pressure
>> and speed of the bow across the strings - too much pressure and not
>> enough speed, and it sounds exactly like you described.
>> 
>> There also is a factor of the instrument itself as well; each
>> instrument has different tonal factors.
> 
> Yeah, well... It's an *old*, cheap school violin. So I had assumed it
> was just naff. But like I said, the teacher had no trouble getting the
> most beautiful notes out of it, so it can't have been that busted...

Well, there are lots of different tonal qualities you can get.  Comparing 
my violin (a copy of a Guineri) to, say, Pearlman's Stradavarius, there's 
no comparison in the tone.  Pearlman's Strad is one of the most fantastic 
sounding instruments out there (similarly, there are few cellos that can 
rival the sound from Yo Yo Ma's Strad).  My violin only cost about $1500 
back when my parents bought it; Pearlman's Strad is worth millions.

> Random snippet: I remember when the school orchestra performed Ode To
> Joy. (Don't ask me who wrote that.) 

Beethoven used it in the last movement of the 9th Symphony, but it's a 
traditional tune, and I don't know if the authorship is even known.  The 
words were written by Friedrich Schiller (a poet) in 1785, but it's been 
used in music since 1786; Beethoven's use (the best known) is just one of 
many uses in music.  Even Tchaikovsky used it (which I didn't know).

> Our teacher was very strict. She
> could tell I was playing the tune rather than reading the music, so she
> moved me from 1st violin to 3rd violin, because there is no way in hell
> you could play that from memory.

Heh, maybe not at first, but eventually you learn to just memorise the 
music on the page - it's easier that way.  I played 1st and 2nd violin 
parts myself, depending on which orchestra and at which time.  In the 
school orchestras, I always played 1st violin (and my senior year, 1st 
chair), but in the youth orchestra it varied.

> Anyway, the piece starts off telling you to play very softly. And then
> after a while it says play a little louder - but just a little. And then
> it's like... forte. [OK, I give the bow a little more elbow.]
> 
> Double-forte. [OK. I press down a bit harder and really *work* those
> strings.]
> 
> Triple-forte. [Uh... OK, let me bow a bit faster...]
> 
> QUADRUPLE-FORTE!! [Dude... what? This thing doesn't *go* any louder!!]

Well, it's also a factor of the number of people in the section.  :-)

> Still, with a couple of cellos and hons going - not to mention the music
> teacher taking the bottom notes of the school piano a lively workout -
> it sounded pretty damn good.

That was the thing that surprised me the most; the school orchestra 
conductor I started with in high school (and had all through jr. high 
school) would have us play unarranged music (ie, he'd use the original 
scores) and we'd sound not too bad.  Listening to recordings now, they 
sound amateurish, but compared to sitting in the orchestra actually 
playing the music, we sounded really good. 

The youth orchestra I was in in high school (my junior year) went to 
Russia on a concert tour - so some of the music in my collection is 
professional recordings of the pieces we played on that tour.

> Fact: It's almost impossible to hold a violin comfortably while wearing
> a school blazer with huge shoulder pads... >_<

I could see that, even with a proper shoulder rest, you need a fairly 
solid shoulder underneath it.

Jim

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On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 20:48:03 +0000, Orchid XP v7 wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
>>> Music is the art of transformation.  It's math that pleases the ears
>>> and the soul.  The story it presents is entirely subjective from
>>> individual to individual.
>> 
>> This is certainly true, though - you can hear stories even if there
>> isn't one.  For example, there is one part of Mozart's Requiem that
>> invokes for me a chase through the woods.  It was used in Amadeus, and
>> oddly enough, the images they used were pretty close to what it invoked
>> for me visually prior to seeing the film.
>> 
>> That was really cool.
> 
> I almost always find that when [if] I get to see the music video for my
> favorite tune, it looks nothing like what you'd expect. Oh well!

Well, that's also just fine - doesn't make your imagination any better or 
worse than the imaginations of those who came up with the video.

Film music is fun to do that with if you haven't seen the film yet.  I 
did that with the Untouchables soundtrack, and it was surprising with 
some of the music how close I was to what was in the movie, and at other 
times how very far off I was.

Jim

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>> I almost always find that when [if] I get to see the music video for my
>> favorite tune, it looks nothing like what you'd expect. Oh well!
> 
> Well, that's also just fine - doesn't make your imagination any better or 
> worse than the imaginations of those who came up with the video.
> 
> Film music is fun to do that with if you haven't seen the film yet.  I 
> did that with the Untouchables soundtrack, and it was surprising with 
> some of the music how close I was to what was in the movie, and at other 
> times how very far off I was.

Interesting thing: I have the soundtrack to Cats and Phantom of the 
Opera. However, I haven't seen the shows. I wonder what they're actually 
like? Hmm... could be amusing! ;-)

OTOH, I've also heard that horrible Time Warp song. Not sure I wanna 
know what the show is like! (Amy tells me "if you haven't seen the Rocky 
Horror Show, you must be a virgin!" How perceptive...)

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 21:06:29 +0000, Orchid XP v7 wrote:

>>> I almost always find that when [if] I get to see the music video for
>>> my favorite tune, it looks nothing like what you'd expect. Oh well!
>> 
>> Well, that's also just fine - doesn't make your imagination any better
>> or worse than the imaginations of those who came up with the video.
>> 
>> Film music is fun to do that with if you haven't seen the film yet.  I
>> did that with the Untouchables soundtrack, and it was surprising with
>> some of the music how close I was to what was in the movie, and at
>> other times how very far off I was.
> 
> Interesting thing: I have the soundtrack to Cats and Phantom of the
> Opera. However, I haven't seen the shows. I wonder what they're actually
> like? Hmm... could be amusing! ;-)

<g>

> OTOH, I've also heard that horrible Time Warp song. Not sure I wanna
> know what the show is like! (Amy tells me "if you haven't seen the Rocky
> Horror Show, you must be a virgin!" How perceptive...)

Actually, the film itself is quite funny (and very strange).  The music 
also isn't to my taste entirely, but I found the film entertaining at 
least.  It's a cult classic, so it's one of those things you either like 
or you don't - I don't know that there's much of a middle ground.

Jim

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"Orchid XP v7" <voi### [at] devnull> a écrit dans le message de news: 
47ae15d1@news.povray.org...

> OTOH, I've also heard that horrible Time Warp song. Not sure I wanna know 
> what the show is like! (Amy tells me "if you haven't seen the Rocky Horror 
> Show, you must be a virgin!" How perceptive...)

There's no much point in watching The Rocky Horror Picture Show if you're 
not in a theater with dozens of guys (and girls) in garter belts and panty 
hoses throwing rice and water and shouting every line before they appear on 
screen. If you ever find yourself in Paris, go to the Studio Galande either 
on Friday or Saturday.
http://90plan.ovh.net/~rocky/frame.html?id=0}

G.


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**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters

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Gail Shaw wrote:
> "andrel" <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message
> news:47A### [at] hotmailcom...
> 
>> I recently bought Paris Moon by Blackmore's Night (yes, the guy from
>> deep purple). I do like it but am not sure what category that would be.
> 
> Another Blackmore's Night fan. 

Fan may be a big word. I just recently came across them. I happen to 
know a record shop where the owner knows something about music and knows 
my taste. Then again, I don't know why it took 10 years to mention them.

> I recommend you try their albums Fires at
> Midnight (especially the song on it of the same title) and The Village
> Lantern (and again, especially the song of the same title)
> 

Both songs are on the Paris Moon DVD and CD. Yet, I think I am indeed 
going to buy some more, thanks for the suggestions. And yes that'll be 
in the form of shiny discs. I still like physical things.

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Orchid XP v7 wrote:
> OTOH, I've also heard that horrible Time Warp song. Not sure I wanna
> know what the show is like! (Amy tells me "if you haven't seen the Rocky
> Horror Show, you must be a virgin!" How perceptive...)
> 

What she didn't tell you is that 'virgin' is the technical term the
stage groups use to refer to folks who haven't seen it live. Seeing the
movie is one thing, watching it at a theater is another. And seeing it
in a theater with a group of people acting out side scenes, the audience
changing the script and shouting lines back at the film, while throwing
rice at each other, and dancing to most of the songs . . . is a
completely different experience.

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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 05:06:36 -0500, nemesis wrote:
> > no, no, no.  Try to love the music for the music itself.  Programme
> > music is so démodé...
>
> I have to disagree - you can love music for any number of reasons.

Yes, it's just that few people really do love music for the music itself.  Many
associate certain music to special occasions in their lives and that's why they
enjoy it foremost.  Many just enjoy music as a way to get together with other
people.  Few have pleasure with just paying attention to it and marvel at the
heartpounding transformations and transfigurations...

the most abstract art is also the least really appreciated one...

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Orchid XP v7 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> Random snippet: I remember when the school orchestra performed Ode To
> Joy. (Don't ask me who wrote that.)

please, man...  Whenever you don't know something, do yourself and everyone a
favor and be more curious about it; look it up somewhere.

But I told you you knew Beethoven...

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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 20:46:46 +0000, Orchid XP v7 wrote:
> > Random snippet: I remember when the school orchestra performed Ode To
> > Joy. (Don't ask me who wrote that.)
>
> Beethoven used it in the last movement of the 9th Symphony, but it's a
> traditional tune, and I don't know if the authorship is even known.  The
> words were written by Friedrich Schiller (a poet) in 1785, but it's been
> used in music since 1786; Beethoven's use (the best known) is just one of
> many uses in music.  Even Tchaikovsky used it (which I didn't know).

hmm, you say it's a traditional tune (melody) but I've never heard of that.  I
know after Schiller wrote it, many musicians created music for the words, but I
think the melody in the 9th is definitely from Beethoven.  I searched wikipedia
and this:
http://europa.eu/abc/symbols/anthem/index_en.htm

the EU anthem is based on the 9th's Ode to Joy.

is it true it's a traditional tune from before the 9th?

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Orchid XP v7 escribió:
> Oh, sure, because *one* person who lives in Britain doesn't like 
> classical music all that much, the whole country must be like that. ;-)

Yeah nemesis, not all UK is as ignorant as Orchid.

Err... did I type that out loud?

;)

(don't harm me, Andrew)

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Orchid XP v7 wrote:
> My favourite TMBG album has got to be Factory Showroom or Spines. As for 
> other guys... if you haven't heard Tangerine Dream, give it a whirl. If 
> you enjoy crazy synthesizer music, that is...

I have actually heard some Tangerine Dream, though I don't actually own 
any of their music.  As I recall I enjoyed it, perhaps I'll take another 
look.

> I have run into the name "Mogwai" several times though. I have no idea 
> what that sounds like.

It's post rock, so the musical content tends to be built up by slowly 
evolving repetitive patterns.  Sort of like Radiohead but more so, and 
with a bit more emphasis on drums and less on voice.  They're good 
though, and the repetitive nature makes it good music to work to.  If 
that's a bit hard to picture, you can listen to some of their tracks here:

http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=1641

If you do like it, I'd also recommend Sigur Ros.


> Similarly, every time I go into a music shop I 
> find myself wanting to by YES albums just to look at the pictures... no 
> idea what the music sounds like.

Conveniently, the same site also has some tracks by Yes:

http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=105

I'd say that "Close to the Edge"  Is my favorite song listed there, if 
you're only going to listen to one.

On a very related note, www.progarchives.com is a great site to find new 
progressive rock artists, as it will generally include both reviews and 
sample tracks for each band.  You could start at this page:

http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive-rock.asp

which should list the major bands from each subgenre and then go to the 
pages for them to listen to some of their songs.  Also, this page is a 
very good one to look at if you're interested:

http://www.progarchives.com/top-prog-albums.asp

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nemesis wrote:
> Orchid XP v7 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>> Random snippet: I remember when the school orchestra performed Ode To
>> Joy. (Don't ask me who wrote that.)
> 
> please, man...  Whenever you don't know something, do yourself and everyone a
> favor and be more curious about it; look it up somewhere.

Hey, it was probably written on the score. I just don't *remember* any 
more. ;-)

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Nicolas Alvarez wrote:

> (don't harm me, Andrew)

OK, sure. 0:-)
























muhuhuuhhuh...

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Gilles Tran wrote:

> There's no much point in watching The Rocky Horror Picture Show if you're 
> not in a theater with dozens of guys (and girls) in garter belts and panty 
> hoses throwing rice and water and shouting every line before they appear on 
> screen. If you ever find yourself in Paris, go to the Studio Galande either 
> on Friday or Saturday.
> http://90plan.ovh.net/~rocky/frame.html?id=0}

Er... o_O

*backs away slowly*

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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nemesis wrote:

> Yes, it's just that few people really do love music for the music itself.  Many
> associate certain music to special occasions in their lives and that's why they
> enjoy it foremost.  Many just enjoy music as a way to get together with other
> people.  Few have pleasure with just paying attention to it and marvel at the
> heartpounding transformations and transfigurations...

I'm one of those few. [Well, for sufficiently good music anyway.]

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Kevin Wampler wrote:

> I have actually heard some Tangerine Dream, though I don't actually own 
> any of their music.  As I recall I enjoyed it, perhaps I'll take another 
> look.

My personal favourit is the impronouncible "Force Majeure". It's also 
the leasst progressive and most "tune-like" album. But then again, 
"Canayon Dreams" is rather good too. And don't forget Rubycon (although 
it's a very short album). In fact, hell, there are too many great albums 
to list...

[Especially amusing is that some of them are live AND I DIDN'T NOTICE!]

>> I have run into the name "Mogwai" several times though. I have no idea 
>> what that sounds like.
> 
> It's post rock, so the musical content tends to be built up by slowly 
> evolving repetitive patterns.  Sort of like Radiohead but more so, and 
> with a bit more emphasis on drums and less on voice.  They're good 
> though, and the repetitive nature makes it good music to work to.  If 
> that's a bit hard to picture, you can listen to some of their tracks here:
> 
> http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=1641

Don't know Radiohead. [Obviously I've heard of them, and I've probably 
heard their music, but I wouldn't recognise it.]

Hmm... this isn't really my taste.

>> Similarly, every time I go into a music shop I find myself wanting to 
>> by YES albums just to look at the pictures... no idea what the music 
>> sounds like.
> 
> Conveniently, the same site also has some tracks by Yes:
> 
> http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=105

This is a little more like it...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 16:47:22 +0100, Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:
> 
>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 23:20:53 +0100, Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>> Actually, I was surprised that the Amazon downloadable Complete LOTR
>>>>> soundtracks are in MP3 format.  I don't *think* there's any DRM
>>>>> involved (which was really surprising).
>>>> But maybe they can tell who bought the mp3 file by looking at it...
>>>>
>>>> http://www.google.com/search?q=mp3+watermark+amazon
>>> I'm sure they probably can.  That's a bit different than DRM, though,
>>> which has the explicit stated goal of preventing people from
>>> "inappropriate use".  Watermarking allows them to act reactivley - and
>>> I believe is fairly easy to remove anyways...
>>>
>>> mplayer -ao pcm:file=temp.wav file.mp3 lame -h temp.wav
>>> file-without-watermark.mp3
>> Yes, but then you assume that the watermarking is done on the bit-level.
>>
>> What if they change the music somewhat in a way that will survive format
>> conversion ? (E.g. tiny changes in volume levels within a frequency
>> band, small phase shifts, changes in the dynamic range, added noise or a
>> combination of some of these.)
>>
>> There will only have to be minor changes to the sound, as they will only
>> have to encode something like e.g. 30 bits into more than 100s of sound
>> in 2 channels.
> 
> I'd think that the conversion back and forth would modify an attempt like 
> this enough.  Remember that mp3 encoding is lossy, not lossless.

Yes, I know. And to overcome that, just don't make the changes to the
sound THAT small.


> Of course, though, the best option is to not give the files away.

=)

-- 
Tor Olav
http://subcube.com

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"Orchid XP v7" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:47adf2e9$1@news.povray.org...
> andrel wrote:
> > Orchid XP v7 wrote:
> >>
> >> Ever heard a Persian guy sing "Amazing Grace"? That song is boring at
> >> the best of times...
> >>
> > just to be sure, we are talking about this boring piece?
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pK4PtJiOPE
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3XdXEJEI4E
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHpye0M34JQ
>
> Yes, that one.
>
> (And trust me, even the most interesting song sounds boring when played
> on a guitar using 3 chords and a flat strumming rhythem. So when you
> start with a boring song in the first place... Not Good.)

On a completely different note, I like Victor Wootens version  =)
I like to call it "Amazing Bass" ;]

-Nekar

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"Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote in message
news:47ae0e32$1@news.povray.org...
> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 08:08:06 +0000, Orchid XP v7 wrote:
>
> > Jim Henderson wrote:
> >
> >> You played violin?  That's cool. :-)
> >>
> >> Did you just take lessons in school, or private lessons, or self-study?
> >
> > All students at my school were required to learn violin and recorder.
> > But then the music teacher retired, and the music lessens stopped.
> > Eventually they found a replacement, but we only learned how to play
> > electronic keyboard [or rather, how to call up the autobacking]. Oh, and
> > guitar. Ever heard a Persian guy sing "Amazing Grace"? That song is
> > boring at the best of times...
>
> Interesting; I was going to say that I had never heard of a school doing
> that, but we were required to learn recorder, autoharp, and to sing in
> the choir.
>
> > Interesting fact: When *you* play a violin, it sounds nothing like what
> > you hear on the TV. It sounds like somebody dragging a strip of horse
> > hair over a cheese wire. (Which, actually, is what it is.) I always
> > assumed my violin was just naff. But then one day the teacher is, like,
> > "no no Andrew, that F is flat. Give me that!" She takes my violin and
> > plays what I had just been playing. Except it sounds amazing.
> >
> > Um, OK. So it's *me* that's naff. :-|
>
> No, it just takes practice - years of practice - to get good sound out of
> an instrument (doesn't matter what).  I can make my violin make horrible
> sounds as well - it has to do with getting the right pressure and speed
> of the bow across the strings - too much pressure and not enough speed,
> and it sounds exactly like you described.
>
It also depends on the type of instrument. I would say a good violinist
needs to have aquired perfect pitch. If andrew played the piano the same way
he played the violin it would sound ten times better. I would say frettless
stringed instruments are the most difficult to learn.

-Nekar

Post a reply to this message

Tor Olav Kristensen escribió:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 16:47:22 +0100, Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:
>>
>>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 23:20:53 +0100, Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> Actually, I was surprised that the Amazon downloadable Complete LOTR
>>>>>> soundtracks are in MP3 format.  I don't *think* there's any DRM
>>>>>> involved (which was really surprising).
>>>>> But maybe they can tell who bought the mp3 file by looking at it...
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.google.com/search?q=mp3+watermark+amazon
>>>> I'm sure they probably can.  That's a bit different than DRM, though,
>>>> which has the explicit stated goal of preventing people from
>>>> "inappropriate use".  Watermarking allows them to act reactivley - and
>>>> I believe is fairly easy to remove anyways...
>>>>
>>>> mplayer -ao pcm:file=temp.wav file.mp3 lame -h temp.wav
>>>> file-without-watermark.mp3
>>> Yes, but then you assume that the watermarking is done on the bit-level.
>>>
>>> What if they change the music somewhat in a way that will survive format
>>> conversion ? (E.g. tiny changes in volume levels within a frequency
>>> band, small phase shifts, changes in the dynamic range, added noise or a
>>> combination of some of these.)
>>>
>>> There will only have to be minor changes to the sound, as they will only
>>> have to encode something like e.g. 30 bits into more than 100s of sound
>>> in 2 channels.
>> I'd think that the conversion back and forth would modify an attempt like 
>> this enough.  Remember that mp3 encoding is lossy, not lossless.
> 
> Yes, I know. And to overcome that, just don't make the changes to the
> sound THAT small.

Yeah, encode the username in the lyrics. Hey, I can hear my name if I 
play this song backwards!

Post a reply to this message

Nekar wrote:

> I would say frettless
> stringed instruments are the most difficult to learn.

Ain't that the truth!

Still, it's not *so* hard after enough practice. The hard thing is that 
the top E string is like cheese wire. You can *hurt* yourself on that 
thing! o_O

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

"Orchid XP v7" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:47af2886$1@news.povray.org...
> Nekar wrote:
>
> > I would say frettless
> > stringed instruments are the most difficult to learn.
>
> Ain't that the truth!
>
> Still, it's not *so* hard after enough practice. The hard thing is that
> the top E string is like cheese wire. You can *hurt* yourself on that
> thing! o_O
>
It sounds like you played the cheese to the e-string once  ;'>
eee-eee-KA-TWANK!
=:'o

My 10yr old son Duen is lucky enough to have violin lessons at school. His
teacher said he has natural talent and the potential to become one of the
best violinists or a conductor. He wanted to play lead guitar but I told him
I will teach him when he can play Paganini's 5th Caprice   =;)

I'm also planning on having my dads old violin fixed up to help inspire him.
But what I really want to play is contra-bass... Maybe one day when I have
enough money....

-Nekar

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Orchid XP v7 wrote:
> Don't know Radiohead. [Obviously I've heard of them, and I've probably 
> heard their music, but I wouldn't recognise it.]
> 
> Hmm... this isn't really my taste.

I'm surprised, I must say.  They're different enough that you you 
shouldn't discount them because you don't like Mogwai (and Radiohead 
also has a larger range of styles).

>> Conveniently, the same site also has some tracks by Yes:
>>
>> http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=105
> 
> This is a little more like it...

Most of the other top prog albums listed in the site I linked will be in 
a style more similar to this, so it might be worth taking a look at some 
of the bands that keep appearing (Genesis, King Crimson, Van Der Graff 
Generator, etc.)

I'd like to know of modern music that continues in this tradition, but 
there's only a couple of bands that I can think of that that are doing 
something even remotely similar, and their music tends to be a lot 
"heavier".  I'm sure with a bit more looking I'll find some though, 
there's plenty enough bands out there to get a nice range of styles.

Post a reply to this message

Nicolas Alvarez wrote:
> Tor Olav Kristensen escribió:
>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 16:47:22 +0100, Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 23:20:53 +0100, Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> Actually, I was surprised that the Amazon downloadable Complete LOTR
>>>>>>> soundtracks are in MP3 format.  I don't *think* there's any DRM
>>>>>>> involved (which was really surprising).
>>>>>> But maybe they can tell who bought the mp3 file by looking at it...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.google.com/search?q=mp3+watermark+amazon
>>>>> I'm sure they probably can.  That's a bit different than DRM, though,
>>>>> which has the explicit stated goal of preventing people from
>>>>> "inappropriate use".  Watermarking allows them to act reactivley - and
>>>>> I believe is fairly easy to remove anyways...
>>>>>
>>>>> mplayer -ao pcm:file=temp.wav file.mp3 lame -h temp.wav
>>>>> file-without-watermark.mp3
>>>> Yes, but then you assume that the watermarking is done on the 
>>>> bit-level.
>>>>
>>>> What if they change the music somewhat in a way that will survive 
>>>> format
>>>> conversion ? (E.g. tiny changes in volume levels within a frequency
>>>> band, small phase shifts, changes in the dynamic range, added noise 
>>>> or a
>>>> combination of some of these.)
>>>>
>>>> There will only have to be minor changes to the sound, as they will 
>>>> only
>>>> have to encode something like e.g. 30 bits into more than 100s of sound
>>>> in 2 channels.
>>> I'd think that the conversion back and forth would modify an attempt 
>>> like this enough.  Remember that mp3 encoding is lossy, not lossless.
>>
>> Yes, I know. And to overcome that, just don't make the changes to the
>> sound THAT small.
> 
> Yeah, encode the username in the lyrics. Hey, I can hear my name if I 
> play this song backwards!

=)

-- 
Tor Olav
http://subcube.com

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On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:57:54 +0100, Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:

>> I'd think that the conversion back and forth would modify an attempt
>> like this enough.  Remember that mp3 encoding is lossy, not lossless.
> 
> Yes, I know. And to overcome that, just don't make the changes to the
> sound THAT small.

The thing is, the watermark, in order to be meaningful, would have to re-
encode exactly the same way.  Otherwise, you end up with a scrambled 
watermark.  So you can maybe tell it was there, but not what it was.

Jim

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On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 19:05:02 -0500, nemesis wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 20:46:46 +0000, Orchid XP v7 wrote:
>> > Random snippet: I remember when the school orchestra performed Ode To
>> > Joy. (Don't ask me who wrote that.)
>>
>> Beethoven used it in the last movement of the 9th Symphony, but it's a
>> traditional tune, and I don't know if the authorship is even known. 
>> The words were written by Friedrich Schiller (a poet) in 1785, but it's
>> been used in music since 1786; Beethoven's use (the best known) is just
>> one of many uses in music.  Even Tchaikovsky used it (which I didn't
>> know).
> 
> hmm, you say it's a traditional tune (melody) but I've never heard of
> that.  I know after Schiller wrote it, many musicians created music for
> the words, but I think the melody in the 9th is definitely from
> Beethoven.  I searched wikipedia and this:
> http://europa.eu/abc/symbols/anthem/index_en.htm
> 
> the EU anthem is based on the 9th's Ode to Joy.
> 
> is it true it's a traditional tune from before the 9th?

That's what I recall from a music history class I took years ago.  I 
might be thinking of something else (perhaps "Simple Gifts" from 
Appalachian Spring).

Jim

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On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:58:24 +0200, Nekar wrote:

> It also depends on the type of instrument. I would say a good violinist
> needs to have aquired perfect pitch. 

Intonation is certainly important.  But that doesn't affect the tonal 
quality of the instrument so much.

> If andrew played the piano the same
> way he played the violin it would sound ten times better. 

Possibly the other way around, you mean. :-)

> I would say
> frettless stringed instruments are the most difficult to learn.

I always had trouble with the piano.  I never took lessons, though, but 
my brother did, and I learned to play one or two simple songs; but my 
left hand doesn't work the right way to play the piano, and my right hand 
is basically stupid - odd, considering I'm right-handled. :-)

But getting things at the right pitch does take some work.

Jim

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On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:38:35 +0000, Orchid XP v7 wrote:

> Nekar wrote:
> 
>> I would say frettless
>> stringed instruments are the most difficult to learn.
> 
> Ain't that the truth!
> 
> Still, it's not *so* hard after enough practice. The hard thing is that
> the top E string is like cheese wire. You can *hurt* yourself on that
> thing! o_O

That's one of the reasons I've not gotten back into it - no callouses any 
more on my fingers...

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 18:40:02 -0500, nemesis wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 05:06:36 -0500, nemesis wrote:
>> > no, no, no.  Try to love the music for the music itself.  Programme
>> > music is so démodé...
>>
>> I have to disagree - you can love music for any number of reasons.
> 
> Yes, it's just that few people really do love music for the music
> itself.  

For me it depends on the piece.  Some pieces, like Bach's Toccata & Fugue 
are fantastic pieces in their own right.  As you say, the mathematical 
constructs are truly incredible.

But at the same time, I'd listen to Moscow Nights because it's a song we 
played on the aforementioned concert tour, and the audiences loved it.  I 
don't have a copy of that one (other than our orchestral recording from 
the tour), but I can still hear it in my head and remember things like 
getting lost at the Hermitage museum in Leningrad.

> Many associate certain music to special occasions in their
> lives and that's why they enjoy it foremost.  Many just enjoy music as a
> way to get together with other people.  Few have pleasure with just
> paying attention to it and marvel at the heartpounding transformations
> and transfigurations...

Well, certainly one of the most breathtaking pieces of music ever written 
is Barber's Adagio for Strings; most people associate it with the film 
_Platoon_, but I think even most people who listen to it who are familiar 
with the film can get behind the sheer intensity of the work.  That's 
another one we played in the USSR, and I can tell you from personal 
experience that there is *nothing* like playing that piece - particularly 
in the rain at Gorky Park.  While I'm not (as you know from previous 
discussions) a particularly religious person, that experience alone was 
one of the most moving and breathtaking performances I've ever taken part 
in.  It was truly as if the sky opened up and wept.

It's a pity the rain was significant enough that only 3 or 4 remained in 
the audience by the time we finished playing it (after 3 starts that had 
to be aborted because of the rain - string instruments are assembled 
using water-soluble glue, and on the final attempt we eventually had to 
inch the string sections back under the bandshell).

> the most abstract art is also the least really appreciated one...

I don't think that it's unappreciated or even least appreciated; it's 
just appreciated in more ways than a physical or visual art form.  An 
aural medium bypasses the optic nerve and engages the imagination, if the 
audio is compelling enough.

Jim

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On 9 Feb 2008 15:39:13 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>I played in a youth orchestra when I was in high school, and the 
>conductor was having trouble getting us to learn the Symphonie 
>Fantastique,

LOL
When it was written, the professional musicians of the time hated it. It was too
difficult for them. Thirteen timpani detuned to get the effect Berlioz wanted in
the march to the scaffold IIRC.

Regards
	Stephen

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On 9 Feb 2008 15:46:28 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 09:49:37 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>
>> 11CDs SHOSTAKOVICH Complete Symphonies 1-15 Barshai 
>
>I got the 10th as I was looking for a recording of the Festival Overture 
>and it was on that disc.  Third movement brings a vivid image to me of a 
>horse-drawn sleigh being pulled quickly across a snowy field for some 
>reason.
>

That's my wife's I'll probably be out of the room or even the house, when she
listens to it :)


>How are the others?
>

So far so good

>> CD DVORAK Complete Slavonic Dances Op 46, Op 72 RoyalPO 
>> 2CDs DVORAK Slavonic Dances & Other Music for PianoDuet
>
>Now there's something I haven't heard in ages - I think I've only got 
>those on cassette (and sheet music for violin solo at that).  I'd 
>forgotten about those almost entirely.
>
I've not got round to these yet. In fact I've got a backlog that is quite long
:(

Regards
	Stephen

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> More precisely: The encryption *must* be removed in order to *play* the 
> music. Therefore, this encryption must be trivially breakable,

Read the first post in this thread, which explains the basics of encryption 
on HD movie discs:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=122363

Now tell me (and everyone on that forum) that it's trivial to break :-)

Post a reply to this message

> For someone with the skills, extracting the necessary keys has become
> fairly trivial.  How long did it take for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray DVD
> encryption to be "broken"?

Exactly, and it hasn't even been properly "broken" in the sense Andrew 
means.

Post a reply to this message

On Sat,  9 Feb 2008 05:29:22 EST, "nemesis" <nam### [at] gmailcom> wrote:

>Stephen <mcavoysATaolDOTcom@> wrote:
>> >"I wouldn't recognise any of the others", the other being Beethoven and Mozart.
>> >Come on!  Even the chinese behind the Great Wall know Beethoven and Mozart!!
>>
>> Sadly this view is all too common in Britain :(
>
>I thought so.  Perhaps just Elgar, Handel, Johann Christian Bach, Haydn and a
>few others who actually went to England are appreciated, which is a shame.

I hay have given you the wrong impression. They are a lot of music lovers here
who would put the best of us to shame. :)

>Perhaps the British should come out of their hobbit-holes more often and see
>what a big world full of wonders it is out there...
>
>
Did we not visit your part of the world with our armies? No! then it must not
have been worth it ;-)
As I remember it was a Brit who found the Hobbits and the wraiths :)

Regards
	Stephen

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Stephen <mcavoysATaolDOTcom@> wrote:
> On Sat,  9 Feb 2008 05:29:22 EST, "nemesis" <nam### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> >Perhaps the British should come out of their hobbit-holes more often and see
> >what a big world full of wonders it is out there...
> >
> Did we not visit your part of the world with our armies?

wonders are to be amazed at.  Not conquered or destroyed... ;)

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 15:31:30 EST, "nemesis" <nam### [at] gmailcom> wrote:

>wonders are to be amazed at.  Not conquered or destroyed... ;)

True

Regards
	Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:57:54 +0100, Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:
> 
>>> I'd think that the conversion back and forth would modify an attempt
>>> like this enough.  Remember that mp3 encoding is lossy, not lossless.
>> Yes, I know. And to overcome that, just don't make the changes to the
>> sound THAT small.
> 
> The thing is, the watermark, in order to be meaningful, would have to re-
> encode exactly the same way.  Otherwise, you end up with a scrambled 
> watermark.  So you can maybe tell it was there, but not what it was.

Redundancy. Error correction codes.

-- 
Tor Olav
http://subcube.com

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 09:50:45 +0100, scott wrote:

>> For someone with the skills, extracting the necessary keys has become
>> fairly trivial.  How long did it take for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray DVD
>> encryption to be "broken"?
> 
> Exactly, and it hasn't even been properly "broken" in the sense Andrew
> means.

Precisely - the result is the important thing.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 22:22:24 +0100, Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:57:54 +0100, Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:
>> 
>>>> I'd think that the conversion back and forth would modify an attempt
>>>> like this enough.  Remember that mp3 encoding is lossy, not lossless.
>>> Yes, I know. And to overcome that, just don't make the changes to the
>>> sound THAT small.
>> 
>> The thing is, the watermark, in order to be meaningful, would have to
>> re- encode exactly the same way.  Otherwise, you end up with a
>> scrambled watermark.  So you can maybe tell it was there, but not what
>> it was.
> 
> Redundancy. Error correction codes.

I don't think that helps from the point of converting and then re-
encoding.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:30:34 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 9 Feb 2008 15:39:13 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
>>I played in a youth orchestra when I was in high school, and the
>>conductor was having trouble getting us to learn the Symphonie
>>Fantastique,
> 
> LOL
> When it was written, the professional musicians of the time hated it. It
> was too difficult for them. Thirteen timpani detuned to get the effect
> Berlioz wanted in the march to the scaffold IIRC.

It's not surprising; it is a fairly difficult piece; and if you think the 
march effect was tough, you ain't seen the violin bit for the start of 
the 5th movement. ;-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:35:20 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 9 Feb 2008 15:46:28 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
>>On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 09:49:37 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>>
>>> 11CDs SHOSTAKOVICH Complete Symphonies 1-15 Barshai
>>
>>I got the 10th as I was looking for a recording of the Festival Overture
>>and it was on that disc.  Third movement brings a vivid image to me of a
>>horse-drawn sleigh being pulled quickly across a snowy field for some
>>reason.
>>
>>
> That's my wife's I'll probably be out of the room or even the house,
> when she listens to it :)

:-)

>>How are the others?
>>
>>
> So far so good

Cool.  I had wondered; I like Shostakovich, but he does tend towards 
modern in his sound, and sometimes that doesn't work for me.

>>> CD DVORAK Complete Slavonic Dances Op 46, Op 72 RoyalPO 2CDs DVORAK
>>> Slavonic Dances & Other Music for PianoDuet
>>
>>Now there's something I haven't heard in ages - I think I've only got
>>those on cassette (and sheet music for violin solo at that).  I'd
>>forgotten about those almost entirely.
>>
> I've not got round to these yet. In fact I've got a backlog that is
> quite long :(

Same here...

Right now still trying to get through the complete scores from all 3 LOTR 
films.  Finished TTT yesterday, now going through FOTR.

Jim

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