And lo on Mon, 04 Feb 2008 01:46:32 -0000, Hildur K.  
<hil### [at] 3dcafemailevery1net> did spake, saying:

>
>> >>>
>> >>> "Guð minn góður, ég er með öxi í hausnum!"
>> >>>
>> >>> in my tongue. ;-)
>> >>>
>> >> Iceland?
>> >
>> > Yes, how did you guess?
>> >
>> ehh, pattern matching?
>
> Oh, the link, I didn´t see it the first time. Sorry :-/
>
> What I wrote is not a 100% match but means the same. Which only proves  
> that
> there are always several ways to say the same thing in any lanuage.
>
> This only makes it even more difficult for the rest of us to figure  
> things out
> when we don´t know all possible nuances of a language. And which also  
> makes
> on-line translators necessary but usually not very helpful.
>
> Like a simple news headline: "Bush and Sharon met in Washington"  
> translates to
> "A shrub and a piece of broken flower pot met in the laundry".
>
> Makes you wonder... a lot.

No doubt it would have been a more productive meeting.

> By the way, in my language we have a single word to describe "a piece of  
> broken flower pot", -pottbrot-,

Which reads to me as Pot Broke, just shows where a fair chunk of English  
is derived from.

> I just can´t think of a single word to describe that in English. Is  
> there one? Like "a piece of broken glass" translates -glerbrot-the same  
> way ;-)

Potshard; it's a special case though as you don't have glassshard. You  
could have glass-shard though etc. but it's normally unhyphenated.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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"Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
> And lo on Mon, 04 Feb 2008 01:46:32 -0000, Hildur K.
> <hil### [at] 3dcafemailevery1net> did spake, saying:
>

> Potshard; it's a special case though as you don't have glassshard. You
> could have glass-shard though etc. but it's normally unhyphenated.
>
Thanks :-) Always trying to add to my vocabulary.

Hildur

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And lo on Mon, 04 Feb 2008 14:16:25 -0000, Hildur K.  
<hil### [at] 3dcafemailevery1net> did spake, saying:

> "Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>> And lo on Mon, 04 Feb 2008 01:46:32 -0000, Hildur K.
>> <hil### [at] 3dcafemailevery1net> did spake, saying:
>>
>
>> Potshard; it's a special case though as you don't have glassshard. You
>> could have glass-shard though etc. but it's normally unhyphenated.
>>
> Thanks :-) Always trying to add to my vocabulary.

or Potsherd. In archaelogy a sherd is a part of a broken pot and a shard  
is part of broken glass, but you can still have a potshard. Got to love  
this language.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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>
> or Potsherd. In archaelogy a sherd is a part of a broken pot and a shard
> is part of broken glass, but you can still have a potshard. Got to love
> this language.

Aha, this explains it. The translator couldn´t figure out Sharon so, instead of
leaving the space blank, it simply picked the first word starting with s-h-a-r
which is shard! It could just as well have been -share- or -sharp-

or my favorite: -shark-!

No wonder I´m sometimes confused about translations.

I remember -trying- to read an article, -presumably- about 3D art, translated
from French to English. The translation kept on repeating that everything was
-gold-, over and over again. Very confusing. Obviously this was not to be taken
literally in this context.

This lead me to the conclusion that -gold- (d´or?) must be used in a specific
expression in French, meaning -great- or -best- maybe? Does this ring a bell
with any of you fluent French speaking people?

Hildur

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Hildur K. wrote:
> I remember -trying- to read an article, -presumably- about 3D art, translated
> from French to English. The translation kept on repeating that everything was
> -gold-, over and over again. Very confusing. Obviously this was not to be taken
> literally in this context.
> 
> This lead me to the conclusion that -gold- (d´or?) must be used in a specific
> expression in French, meaning -great- or -best- maybe? Does this ring a bell
> with any of you fluent French speaking people?

As far as I know it is not any more common in French than in English. 
Indeed it has this meaning of "greatest" or "best", for example golden 
ratio in English translates as "le nombre d'or" (golden number) in French.

There might be cases that differ between both languages. For instance we 
have "un livre d'or", wich translates as "a guestbook" in English. I'm 
sure the reverse also exists...

-- 
Vincent

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And lo on Mon, 04 Feb 2008 22:10:24 -0000, Vincent Le Chevalier  
<gal### [at] libertyALLsurfSPAMfr> did spake, saying:

> Hildur K. wrote:
>> I remember -trying- to read an article, -presumably- about 3D art,  
>> translated
>> from French to English. The translation kept on repeating that  
>> everything was
>> -gold-, over and over again. Very confusing. Obviously this was not to  
>> be taken
>> literally in this context.
>>  This lead me to the conclusion that -gold- (d´or?) must be used in a  
>> specific
>> expression in French, meaning -great- or -best- maybe? Does this ring a  
>> bell
>> with any of you fluent French speaking people?
>
> As far as I know it is not any more common in French than in English.  
> Indeed it has this meaning of "greatest" or "best", for example golden  
> ratio in English translates as "le nombre d'or" (golden number) in  
> French.
>
> There might be cases that differ between both languages. For instance we  
> have "un livre d'or", wich translates as "a guestbook" in English.

At one time was the guestbook (or equivalent) important enough to be  
covered in gold leaf?

> I'm sure the reverse also exists...

I was reading a book which mentioned that bureaucracy is the obvious  
combination of bureau and -cracy. Now -cracy roughly means 'ruled by' and  
bureau is a desk; except that got its name from the *woolen cloth* used to  
cover the desks of important people. So the literal translation of  
bureaucracy is 'ruled by woolen cloth' or as the book put in 'ruled by  
green baize'.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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Phil Cook wrote:
> I was reading a book which mentioned that bureaucracy is the obvious 
> combination of bureau and -cracy. Now -cracy roughly means 'ruled by' 
> and bureau is a desk; except that got its name from the *woolen cloth* 
> used to cover the desks of important people. So the literal translation 
> of bureaucracy is 'ruled by woolen cloth' or as the book put in 'ruled 
> by green baize'.

Bureau is also 'office' in French, and I always thought that meaning 
came first, as the type of desk referred to in English is like a really 
compact office. Chicken or egg? :-)

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And lo on Tue, 05 Feb 2008 10:21:34 -0000, Bill Pragnell  
<bil### [at] hotmailcom> did spake, saying:

> Phil Cook wrote:
>> I was reading a book which mentioned that bureaucracy is the obvious  
>> combination of bureau and -cracy. Now -cracy roughly means 'ruled by'  
>> and bureau is a desk; except that got its name from the *woolen cloth*  
>> used to cover the desks of important people. So the literal translation  
>> of bureaucracy is 'ruled by woolen cloth' or as the book put in 'ruled  
>> by green baize'.
>
> Bureau is also 'office' in French, and I always thought that meaning  
> came first, as the type of desk referred to in English is like a really  
> compact office. Chicken or egg? :-)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Bureau states the origin as "burel"  
a coarse woolen cloth etc.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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Phil Cook wrote:
> And lo on Tue, 05 Feb 2008 10:21:34 -0000, Bill Pragnell 
> <bil### [at] hotmailcom> did spake, saying:
> 
>> Phil Cook wrote:
>>> I was reading a book which mentioned that bureaucracy is the obvious 
>>> combination of bureau and -cracy. Now -cracy roughly means 'ruled by' 
>>> and bureau is a desk; except that got its name from the *woolen 
>>> cloth* used to cover the desks of important people. So the literal 
>>> translation of bureaucracy is 'ruled by woolen cloth' or as the book 
>>> put in 'ruled by green baize'.
>>
>> Bureau is also 'office' in French, and I always thought that meaning 
>> came first, as the type of desk referred to in English is like a 
>> really compact office. Chicken or egg? :-)
> 
> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Bureau states the origin as 
> "burel" a coarse woolen cloth etc.

Interesting. Etymology is indeed a tangled web of upholstery.

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"Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
> And lo on Tue, 05 Feb 2008 10:21:34 -0000, Bill Pragnell
> <bil### [at] hotmailcom> did spake, saying:
>
> > Phil Cook wrote:
> >> I was reading a book which mentioned that bureaucracy is the obvious
> >> combination of bureau and -cracy. Now -cracy roughly means 'ruled by'
> >> and bureau is a desk; except that got its name from the *woolen cloth*
> >> used to cover the desks of important people. So the literal translation
> >> of bureaucracy is 'ruled by woolen cloth' or as the book put in 'ruled
> >> by green baize'.

Here is another completely different explanation:

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/-cracy

Hildur

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I have to celebrate, today I´ve learned a bunch of new English expressions:

Forget about bureaucracy! Forget about democracy!
There are so many much more interesting alternatives:


How about kleptocracy, or mobocracy perhaps? There is even pornocracy to suit
everybody´s taste or need.

I´d personally go for:

Xerocracy (zee-ROK-ruh-see) is the idea of "rule through photocopying". It is a
form of anarchic organization.

The word was coined to describe the organizational principle of Critical Mass,
and it is used almost exclusively within that context. The word is intended to
combine the ideas of freedom from bureaucracy and freedom to photocopy. Unlike
a hierarchical organization, nobody is in charge structurally because everyone
is free to make photocopies of their ideas and pass them around.

Got to love the English language. It´s so... versatile.

Hildur

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And lo on Tue, 05 Feb 2008 22:56:28 -0000, Hildur K.  
<hil### [at] 3dcafemailevery1net> did spake, saying:

>
>
> I have to celebrate, today I´ve learned a bunch of new English  
> expressions:
>
> Forget about bureaucracy! Forget about democracy!

At times I wish we would :-)

> There are so many much more interesting alternatives:
>
> How about kleptocracy, or mobocracy perhaps? There is even pornocracy to  
> suit everybody´s taste or need.
>
> I´d personally go for:
>
> Xerocracy (zee-ROK-ruh-see) is the idea of "rule through photocopying".  
> It is a form of anarchic organization.

And make note of that "anarchic" you just used; an-archy. So Xerocracy is  
rule through photocopiers whereas Xeroarchy is where you're ruled by a  
photocopier.

> Got to love the English language. It´s so... versatile.

Especially since those terms are either Latin or Ancient Greek :-) We do  
like grabbing words from other languages and adding them to our own in a  
unique way. It helps that our own 'default' language is such a hodge-podge  
of other languages.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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"Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
> And lo on Tue, 05 Feb 2008 22:56:28 -0000, Hildur K.
> <hil### [at] 3dcafemailevery1net> did spake, saying:


> And make note of that "anarchic" you just used; an-archy. So Xerocracy is
> rule through photocopiers whereas Xeroarchy is where you're ruled by a
> photocopier.

Good point. Thanks for pointing that one out for me. Never thought about the
difference between -cracy and -archy. It´s subtle but the way you put it, it
becomes quite clear.

> Especially since those terms are either Latin or Ancient Greek :-) We do
> like grabbing words from other languages and adding them to our own in a
> unique way. It helps that our own 'default' language is such a hodge-podge
> of other languages.

Yes, I did learn some Latin, but I skipped Greek, had Spanish instead. Maybe
that was a mistake.. don´t know.

I think I remember correctly they told us that about 52% of the English language
is inherited (partly through French) from Latin and Greek and the rest is
Germanic.  My language is mostly Germanic, so those 48% are rather easy to
figure out. But those 52% can be a drag. I spent years and years with the old
faithful Oxford dictionary by my side. Do you have any idea how many words
start with con- in that dictionary? Thank god for on-line dictionaries. They
are life-(and time-) savers :-)

Hildur

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And lo on Wed, 06 Feb 2008 18:30:01 -0000, Hildur K.  
<hil### [at] 3dcafemailevery1net> did spake, saying:

> "Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>> And lo on Tue, 05 Feb 2008 22:56:28 -0000, Hildur K.
>> <hil### [at] 3dcafemailevery1net> did spake, saying:
>
>
>> And make note of that "anarchic" you just used; an-archy. So Xerocracy  
>> is
>> rule through photocopiers whereas Xeroarchy is where you're ruled by a
>> photocopier.
>
> Good point. Thanks for pointing that one out for me. Never thought about  
> the difference between -cracy and -archy. It´s subtle but the way you  
> put it, it becomes quite clear.

Though the meaning in common usage has become blurred which is  
understandable. Some words drop out of use or are subsumed into others I  
think I've mentioned somewhere my use of the word manufactory, which a  
collegue didn't believe was a real word; it's been replaced by the  
all-purpose "factory" instead.

>> Especially since those terms are either Latin or Ancient Greek :-) We do
>> like grabbing words from other languages and adding them to our own in a
>> unique way. It helps that our own 'default' language is such a  
>> hodge-podge of other languages.

Did you like hodge-podge? I could have used mish-mash instead.

> Yes, I did learn some Latin, but I skipped Greek, had Spanish instead.  
> Maybe that was a mistake.. don´t know.

Except the number of people in this country who learn either Greek or  
Latin is prevalent only for public (paying) schools, lawyers and doctors.  
If you're learning English as a non-native language it might help to  
puzzle out the meaning of some words.

> I think I remember correctly they told us that about 52% of the English  
> language
> is inherited (partly through French) from Latin and Greek and the rest is
> Germanic.

Which in theory should make the British all polyglots except we aren't. I  
could point to the fact we're a bunch of xenophobic islanders, but I hope  
the real reason is due to the differences in the underlying structure of  
our language. We can thank the Normans in the 11th century for not  
imposing their language on the commoners, so English evolved bottom-up  
rather then top-down and things like la le tu vous and suffixes were  
dropped or simplified.

Don't get me wrong we've still got some strangness and some words have  
special cases (the plural of mouse is not mouses but mice, the plural of  
sheep is sheep and not sheeps) and spelling is horrendous compared to  
speech thanks to both The Great Vowel Shift and regional dialects. For  
example for most words the past tense use it to add -ed, so own and owned,  
but then you have keep and kept because the -ed and -t sound the same and  
that's just how they got written down. I'm not even going to mention win  
and won :-)

> My language is mostly Germanic, so those 48% are rather easy to figure  
> out. But those 52% can be a drag. I spent years and years with the old  
> faithful Oxford dictionary by my side. Do you have any idea how many  
> words start with con- in that dictionary?

Or com-, again why is it im-possible rather then un-possible or even  
in-possible they're perfectly logical constructs; they just sound wrong.

> Thank god for on-line dictionaries. They are life-(and time-) savers :-)

Oh yes except the ones that insist in refering to American-English as  
English :-P

To quote the great Buffy when instructing Giles

Buffy: "Speak English, not whatever they speak in, um...."
Giles: "England?"

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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