Is there free will in Heaven?


(FWIW, I think either answer leads to some obvious problems. :-)

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     It's not feature creep if you put it
     at the end and adjust the release date.

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> Is there free will in Heaven?

  Maybe.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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"Darren New" <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote

> Is there free will in Heaven?

Depends. Do you think humans have free will? If so, yes, gays are human,
ergo, there's free will in Heaven.

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On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:39:38 -0800, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:

>Is there free will in Heaven?
>
>
>(FWIW, I think either answer leads to some obvious problems. :-)

Why this is heaven, nor am I out of it. 

Regards
	Stephen

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> Is there free will in Heaven?

yes.  Lucifer was not happy and dropped out. ;)

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On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:28:28 EST, "nemesis" <nam### [at] gmailcom> wrote:

>Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>> Is there free will in Heaven?
>
>yes.  Lucifer was not happy and dropped out. ;)
>
>
Good point but he was opposed IIRC
And that was only in one heaven. :)

Regards
	Stephen

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I for one find it quite boring that free will just means choosing to side with
God or to side with the Devil.  It sounds like American elections... :P

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On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:58:31 EST, "nemesis" <nam### [at] gmailcom> wrote:

>I for one find it quite boring that free will just means choosing to side with
>God or to side with the Devil.  

Or deciding that one is as bad as the other.

>It sounds like American elections... :P

I don't see the connection :)

Regards
	Stephen

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Darren New wrote:
> Is there free will in Heaven?

	Only if you want it.

-- 
"Class, please! If you don't learn Roman numerals, you'll never know the
dates certain motion pictures were copyrighted." -- Mrs. Krabappel in
The Simpsons.


                    /\  /\               /\  /
                   /  \/  \ u e e n     /  \/  a w a z
                       >>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
                                   anl

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Darren New wrote:
> Is there free will in Heaven?

If I'm there, I won't care.

Regards,
John

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Darren New nous apporta ses lumieres en ce 2008/01/23 22:39:
> Is there free will in Heaven?
> 
> 
> (FWIW, I think either answer leads to some obvious problems. :-)
> 
In whitch ones of the thousands of heavens?
Just remember that some heavens for somes are hells for some others...

-- 
Alain
-------------------------------------------------
Caught Asleep At Your Work Desk

Just in case your boss catches you asleep at your desk, be ready to blurt out 
this excuse #1:  I was working smarter - not harder.

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Darren New wrote:
> Is there free will in Heaven?
> 
> 
> (FWIW, I think either answer leads to some obvious problems. :-)
> 
The question is based on a false assumption. Logic dictates that 
everything follows from a false assumption so the answer is probably yes
and that is also the answer to the question whether there isn't free 
will in heaven.

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andrel wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> Is there free will in Heaven?
>>
>>
>> (FWIW, I think either answer leads to some obvious problems. :-)
>>
> The question is based on a false assumption.

And what false assumption do you think I have made?  (Well, I mean, 
other than the obvious one.)

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     It's not feature creep if you put it
     at the end and adjust the release date.

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andrel wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> Is there free will in Heaven?
>>
>>
>> (FWIW, I think either answer leads to some obvious problems. :-)
>>
> The question is based on a false assumption. Logic dictates that 
> everything follows from a false assumption so the answer is probably yes

Incidentally, if what you mean is "there is no Heaven", then the correct 
answer to the question is "Mu" - the Zen answer that unasks the 
question. :-)

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     It's not feature creep if you put it
     at the end and adjust the release date.

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In article <47993a7b$1@news.povray.org>, dne### [at] sanrrcom says...
> andrel wrote:
> > Darren New wrote:
> >> Is there free will in Heaven?
> >>
> >>
> >> (FWIW, I think either answer leads to some obvious problems. :-)
> >>
> > The question is based on a false assumption. Logic dictates that 
> > everything follows from a false assumption so the answer is probably ye
s
> 
> Incidentally, if what you mean is "there is no Heaven", then the correct
 
> answer to the question is "Mu" - the Zen answer that unasks the 
> question. :-)
> 
"False" in this instance refers to lack of foundation. If your roof 
caves in, insisting that you know it was from termites is a false 
assumption, if you have no proof that termites where in it. Presuming 
you can prove they where, you still have to prove that they where the 
main cause, which might be kind of hard if it turned out that your roof 
was made of metal (which would be the equivalent of heaven not existing 
in the first place). But, the assumption is false, being unfounded on 
fact, whether or not there *may* be facts to support it, until such 
facts are made evident, or other facts are presented that invalidate the 
premise.

That there is no evidence, logical or otherwise, to propose that the 
statement has any validity, especial as apposed to like thousands of 
other things people have *called* heaven (or which, like dragons, are 
quite literally *not* the same thing in China and Europe, but get lumped 
together under one label, due to what can, sometimes, be trivial 
similarities), doesn't help it being provably/testably true either, 
never mind a valid premise, as above, to begin with.

-- 
void main () {
  If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
    if version = "Vista" {
      call slow_by_half();
      call DRM_everything();
    }
    call functional_code();
  }
  else
    call crash_windows();
}

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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> In article <47993a7b$1@news.povray.org>, dne### [at] sanrrcom says...
>> andrel wrote:
>>> Darren New wrote:
>>>> Is there free will in Heaven?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (FWIW, I think either answer leads to some obvious problems. :-)
>>>>
>>> The question is based on a false assumption. Logic dictates that 
>>> everything follows from a false assumption so the answer is probably yes
>> Incidentally, if what you mean is "there is no Heaven", then the correct 
>> answer to the question is "Mu" - the Zen answer that unasks the 
>> question. :-)
>>
> "False" in this instance refers to lack of foundation.

Lack of foundation for what? It was a question.

> But, the assumption is false, being unfounded on fact, 

Which assumption?

> That there is no evidence, logical or otherwise, to propose that the 
> statement has any validity, 

Which statement? It's a question.

> doesn't help it being provably/testably true either, 
> never mind a valid premise, as above, to begin with.

Doesn't help what being testably true?

I fear on this one your ranting is taking off before anyone even says 
anything.  Of course the question assumes the existence of free will 
somewhere, and of heaven.  The point of the question is to investigate 
those assumptions, in case you hadn't noticed.  Just ranting without 
reference to the question isn't very interesting.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     It's not feature creep if you put it
     at the end and adjust the release date.

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Darren New wrote:
> Is there free will in Heaven?

You're asking the wrong question. The right one would be is there /only/
  free will in Heaven.

-- 
Eero "Aero" Ahonen
   http://www.zbxt.net
      aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid

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And lo on Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:58:31 -0000, nemesis  
<nam### [at] gmailcom> did spake, saying:

> I for one find it quite boring that free will just means choosing to  
> side with God or to side with the Devil.

"...the boredom you got in Heaven was almost as bad as the excitement you  
got in Hell."

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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And lo on Thu, 24 Jan 2008 03:39:38 -0000, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom>  
did spake, saying:

> Is there free will in Heaven?
>
>
> (FWIW, I think either answer leads to some obvious problems. :-)

Sure, except as soon as you exercise it in a way contrary to the ruling  
authorities you'll be kicked out. It's like 1984 with harps and clouds.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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Phil Cook wrote:
> And lo on Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:58:31 -0000, nemesis 
> <nam### [at] gmailcom> did spake, saying:
> 
>> I for one find it quite boring that free will just means choosing to 
>> side with God or to side with the Devil.
> 
> "...the boredom you got in Heaven was almost as bad as the excitement 
> you got in Hell."

Ha! One of my favourites. Hysterical *and* gripping. :-)

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Phil Cook wrote:
> And lo on Thu, 24 Jan 2008 03:39:38 -0000, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> 
> did spake, saying:
> 
>> Is there free will in Heaven?
>>
>>
>> (FWIW, I think either answer leads to some obvious problems. :-)
> 
> Sure, except as soon as you exercise it in a way contrary to the ruling 
> authorities you'll be kicked out. It's like 1984 with harps and clouds.

Well, that was kind of the obvious problem with the answer yes. *Can* 
you get kicked out? If so, why is Heaven any better than Earth?

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     It's not feature creep if you put it
     at the end and adjust the release date.

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In article <4799594f$1@news.povray.org>, dne### [at] sanrrcom says...
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
> > In article <47993a7b$1@news.povray.org>, dne### [at] sanrrcom says...
> >> andrel wrote:
> >>> Darren New wrote:
> >>>> Is there free will in Heaven?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> (FWIW, I think either answer leads to some obvious problems. :-)
> >>>>
> >>> The question is based on a false assumption. Logic dictates that 
> >>> everything follows from a false assumption so the answer is probably 
yes
> >> Incidentally, if what you mean is "there is no Heaven", then the corre
ct 
> >> answer to the question is "Mu" - the Zen answer that unasks the 
> >> question. :-)
> >>
> > "False" in this instance refers to lack of foundation.
> 
> Lack of foundation for what? It was a question.
> 
> > But, the assumption is false, being unfounded on fact, 
> 
> Which assumption?
> 
The assumption that such a place exists at all, thus rendering the 
question valid. Its like asking if they *have* snow cones at the park on 
GW Bush City, Mars. Its presumes, without evidence, that a) someone 
actually has already built such a city, and b) it could possibly be 
located some place on Mars. You don't even have a place to "put" the 
location you want someone to answer a question about, let alone evidence 
that such a place, assuming you could adequately define "where" it was 
located, exists to *have* anything in. You have to start with something 
known to exist first, like, "Is there intelligent life in Florida School 
Boards?" Mind you, given recent evidence, this question is just as 
nonsensical as yours, but at least we know their is a Florida, and that 
it "contains" School Boards to look for intelligence in. ;)

-- 
void main () {
  If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
    if version = "Vista" {
      call slow_by_half();
      call DRM_everything();
    }
    call functional_code();
  }
  else
    call crash_windows();
}

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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> The assumption that such a place exists at all,

Then the answer would be "no", not "yes". :-) If the place doesn't 
exist, then asking whether there's something at that place would be 
answered "no". Do the taxi drivers on the moon accept tips? No.

Even taking as an assumption that heaven exists, the question raises 
what I think are obvious problems.

What if you go to (Christian) Heaven, meet Mohammed, and he convinces 
you that Jesus isn't your Savior after all?  (OK, well, that's assuming 
Mohammed went to heaven, which according to christians he wouldn't, but 
just say...)

1) God kicks you out. So heaven isn't eternal after all.

2) God lets you stay. So God's just yanking your chain on Earth, 
intentionally putting you into a situation where he can punish you for 
something that doesn't bother him enough to kick you out once you're there.

3) You can't make that choice. Then again, free will is given to humans 
only to trap them into going to Hell anyway.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     It's not feature creep if you put it
     at the end and adjust the release date.

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Darren New wrote:
> Then the answer would be "no", not "yes". :-) If the place doesn't 
> exist, then asking whether there's something at that place would be 
> answered "no". Do the taxi drivers on the moon accept tips? No.

According to my philosophy 101 teacher at university, you can validly 
say anything about nonexistent things.  All unicorns are chartreuse, no 
harbl which has a frobotz is virpo, that kind of thing.  So the taxi 
drivers on the moon both do and do not accept tips.

-- 
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.digitalartsuk.com

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GFA dpu- s: a?-- C++(++++) U P? L E--- W++(+++)>$
N++ o? K- w(+) O? M-(--) V? PS+(+++) PE(--) Y(--)
PGP-(--) t* 5++>+++++ X+ R* tv+ b++(+++) DI
D++(---) G(++) e*>++ h+ !r--- !y--
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

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Tim Cook <z99### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
> > Then the answer would be "no", not "yes". :-) If the place doesn't
> > exist, then asking whether there's something at that place would be
> > answered "no". Do the taxi drivers on the moon accept tips? No.
>
> According to my philosophy 101 teacher at university, you can validly
> say anything about nonexistent things.  All unicorns are chartreuse, no
> harbl which has a frobotz is virpo, that kind of thing.  So the taxi
> drivers on the moon both do and do not accept tips.

indeed.  Wu/Mu is the correct answer to such questions.

It's the correct answer to this particular question as well, regardless of your
beliefs:  there'd be no need for free will in heaven, because you're in Heaven
for crying out loud!!  Heaven/Nirvana/whatever, you're there! no need for
endless argumentations with strangers about your reasons, no need to disagree
for the sake of disagreement, no tribal wars over some irrelevant material
needs:  just enjoy your perfect comunion with the divine, hope you like your
stay!

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Tim Cook wrote:
> All unicorns are chartreuse, 

That's correct, as is "no unicorns are chartreuse". "All unicorns" is 
read as "all unicorns which exist ..." And since there are no unicorns, 
saying "no unicorns have property X" is true also - X(unicorn) is false 
for every unicorn you can supply.

I'm not sure, however, that it's right to say "some unicorns are 
chartreuse". If you say "some unicorns are chartreuse", I can say "point 
to one". "Some unicorns are X" is the same as "There exists at least one 
unicorn which is X."

I think your philosophy professor was wrong. Mine was, several times. 
The midterm paper I did was pointing out the relatively simple flaw in 
the paper he'd had published in some peer-reviewed journal of 
philosophy.  It was kind of obvious to me, being someone who is good at 
finding bugs in software, that what he was saying was trivially 
disprovable with a simple example. That man had a very odd brain.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     On what day did God create the body thetans?

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Tim Cook wrote:
> So the taxi drivers on the moon both do and do not accept tips.
> 

Schrödinger's Taxi Company. Where you aren't sure if you will survive
the trip, or even if you ever arrived.

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And lo on Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:17:10 -0000, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom>  
did spake, saying:

> Phil Cook wrote:
>> And lo on Thu, 24 Jan 2008 03:39:38 -0000, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom>  
>> did spake, saying:
>>
>>> Is there free will in Heaven?
>>>
>>>
>>> (FWIW, I think either answer leads to some obvious problems. :-)
>>  Sure, except as soon as you exercise it in a way contrary to the  
>> ruling authorities you'll be kicked out. It's like 1984 with harps and  
>> clouds.
>
> Well, that was kind of the obvious problem with the answer yes. *Can*  
> you get kicked out?

There's a precedent.

> If so, why is Heaven any better than Earth?

It's got those harps and clouds and the fullsome sense of smugness caused  
by being there.

Okay in all seriousness if everyone thinks the same way in Heaven then  
it's possible that the only way in is to display those same traits on  
Earth. Therefore you have no free will nor free will to lose you are  
simply repeating your Earthly actions in Heaven. If you were the type of  
person to become disatisfied with that then you wouldn't have been allowed  
in. Satan/Lucifer/Adversary doesn't count as he was always in Heaven.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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And lo on Sat, 26 Jan 2008 04:43:44 -0000, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom>  
did spake, saying:

> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> The assumption that such a place exists at all,
>
> Then the answer would be "no", not "yes". :-) If the place doesn't  
> exist, then asking whether there's something at that place would be  
> answered "no". Do the taxi drivers on the moon accept tips? No.
>
> Even taking as an assumption that heaven exists, the question raises  
> what I think are obvious problems.
>
> What if you go to (Christian) Heaven, meet Mohammed, and he convinces  
> you that Jesus isn't your Savior after all?  (OK, well, that's assuming  
> Mohammed went to heaven, which according to christians he wouldn't, but  
> just say...)
>
> 1) God kicks you out. So heaven isn't eternal after all.
>
> 2) God lets you stay. So God's just yanking your chain on Earth,  
> intentionally putting you into a situation where he can punish you for  
> something that doesn't bother him enough to kick you out once you're  
> there.
>
> 3) You can't make that choice. Then again, free will is given to humans  
> only to trap them into going to Hell anyway.

"Mock The Week" got it right. There is only one true religion when you die  
you end up in a room with representatives of all the world's religions  
lined up in a row. You go to the relgion of your chose and they hold up a  
little card with "Bluff" written on it.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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"Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
> It's got those harps and clouds and the fullsome sense of smugness caused
> by being there.
>
> Okay in all seriousness if everyone thinks the same way in Heaven then
> it's possible that the only way in is to display those same traits on
> Earth. Therefore you have no free will nor free will to lose you are
> simply repeating your Earthly actions in Heaven. If you were the type of
> person to become disatisfied with that then you wouldn't have been allowed
> in. Satan/Lucifer/Adversary doesn't count as he was always in Heaven.

Not to sound blasphemous.
But who says that there are individuals. If there might be no free will, it
could also be, that there are no individuals... (invalid logic, but doesn't
matter)
I can't imagine a lot of individuals playing all time similar or same songs with
harp. ;)
"the fullsome sense of smugness caused by being there" sounds like there might
be something, which changes the way you are. -> So no individual anymore? ;)

Regards

              bluetree

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And lo on Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:22:57 -0000, bluetree <nomail@nomail> did  
spake, saying:

> "Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>> It's got those harps and clouds and the fullsome sense of smugness  
>> caused
>> by being there.
>>
>> Okay in all seriousness if everyone thinks the same way in Heaven then
>> it's possible that the only way in is to display those same traits on
>> Earth. Therefore you have no free will nor free will to lose you are
>> simply repeating your Earthly actions in Heaven. If you were the type of
>> person to become disatisfied with that then you wouldn't have been  
>> allowed
>> in. Satan/Lucifer/Adversary doesn't count as he was always in Heaven.
>
> Not to sound blasphemous.

Blasphemer! Stone them, stone them!

> But who says that there are individuals. If there might be no free will,  
> it could also be, that there are no individuals... (invalid logic, but  
> doesn't matter)
> I can't imagine a lot of individuals playing all time similar or same  
> songs with harp. ;)

No you're right they could all Become One With The Mind Of God... ooooo!  
Or separate from God in a shiny silvery gestalt from which multiple forms  
can be made and rule over a race of warriors who... oh wait sorry that's  
Deep Space Nine.

> "the fullsome sense of smugness caused by being there" sounds like there  
> might be something, which changes the way you are. -> So no individual  
> anymore? ;)

Hmm think about the types of people who you'd expect to get into Heaven,  
would you want to spend eternity with them in any form? So the person  
who's there either a) wants to be there b) has to be there, or is c)  
stoned.

Back to the serious bit. I think the gestalt or 'one with the mind of God'  
is a possibiity if you think of each individual joining as a voice in the  
choir, similar to that voice in your head telling you that you shouldn't  
eat that gooey cream pie or take a machine-gun to your co-workers...um...  
anyway in theory parts could arise that find itself in contest with the  
majority and might break-away; which would explain the Downfall of the  
Angels. So that would be a yes to free will.


-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:46:58 -0000, "Phil Cook"
<phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:

>Blasphemer! Stone them, stone them!

Why should the Blasphemers get all the fun :)

A friend of mine explained it perfectly saying.
"When you're dead, you're dead"
That works for me.


Regards
	Stephen

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"Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
> Blasphemer! Stone them, stone them!

No. Don't do it. I believe. I believe everything...

> No you're right they could all Become One With The Mind Of God... ooooo!
> Or separate from God in a shiny silvery gestalt from which multiple forms
> can be made and rule over a race of warriors who... oh wait sorry that's
> Deep Space Nine.

^^
Or they could take the shape of little worm and take over the bodies of some
people, who believe everthing (oh, wait, I'm in danger)... oh wait, that was
Star Gate... :)

> Hmm think about the types of people who you'd expect to get into Heaven,
> would you want to spend eternity with them in any form? So the person
> who's there either a) wants to be there b) has to be there, or is c)
> stoned.

So b) wouldn't have free will.
some of c) as well.
what's about some people of a) who don't want to spend eternity with some
others?

> Back to the serious bit. I think the gestalt or 'one with the mind of God'
> is a possibiity if you think of each individual joining as a voice in the
> choir, similar to that voice in your head telling you that you shouldn't
> eat that gooey cream pie or take a machine-gun to your co-workers...um...
> anyway in theory parts could arise that find itself in contest with the
> majority and might break-away; which would explain the Downfall of the
> Angels. So that would be a yes to free will.


Wouldn't that mean, that those who have a free will, won't be in Heaven? Because
they break away and then are kicked out.


Regards

          bluetree

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Stephen <mcavoysATaolDOTcom@> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:46:58 -0000, "Phil Cook"
> <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>
> >Blasphemer! Stone them, stone them!
>
> Why should the Blasphemers get all the fun :)
>
> A friend of mine explained it perfectly saying.
> "When you're dead, you're dead"
> That works for me.
>
>
> Regards
>  Stephen


Do you think it's fun to get stoned? ;)

Regards
             bluetree

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On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 07:42:57 EST, "bluetree" <nomail@nomail> wrote:

>Stephen <mcavoysATaolDOTcom@> wrote:
>> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:46:58 -0000, "Phil Cook"
>> <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>>
>> >Blasphemer! Stone them, stone them!
>>
>> Why should the Blasphemers get all the fun :)
>>
>> A friend of mine explained it perfectly saying.
>> "When you're dead, you're dead"
>> That works for me.
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>  Stephen
>
>
>Do you think it's fun to get stoned? ;)
>

Yes!
Hit me, hit me :)

Regards
	Stephen

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And lo on Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:31:46 -0000, bluetree <nomail@nomail> did  
spake, saying:

> "Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>> Blasphemer! Stone them, stone them!
>
> No. Don't do it. I believe. I believe everything...
>
>> No you're right they could all Become One With The Mind Of God... ooooo!
>> Or separate from God in a shiny silvery gestalt from which multiple  
>> forms
>> can be made and rule over a race of warriors who... oh wait sorry that's
>> Deep Space Nine.
>
> ^^
> Or they could take the shape of little worm and take over the bodies of  
> some
> people, who believe everthing (oh, wait, I'm in danger)... oh wait, that  
> was
> Star Gate... :)
>
>> Hmm think about the types of people who you'd expect to get into Heaven,
>> would you want to spend eternity with them in any form? So the person
>> who's there either a) wants to be there b) has to be there, or is c)
>> stoned.
>
> So b) wouldn't have free will.

Except they realise they don't want to be there, thus have free will.  
Unless you're saying that people in prison don't have free will?

> some of c) as well.

Except they wouldn't care :-)

> what's about some people of a) who don't want to spend eternity with some
> others?

"I'm a Dead Person Get Me Out Of Here", "Dead Big Brother"? That would be  
fun with the reincarnationists "Hey you were voted out last lifetime you  
can't just waltz back in"

>> Back to the serious bit. I think the gestalt or 'one with the mind of  
>> God'
>> is a possibiity if you think of each individual joining as a voice in  
>> the
>> choir, similar to that voice in your head telling you that you shouldn't
>> eat that gooey cream pie or take a machine-gun to your  
>> co-workers...um...
>> anyway in theory parts could arise that find itself in contest with the
>> majority and might break-away; which would explain the Downfall of the
>> Angels. So that would be a yes to free will.
>
> Wouldn't that mean, that those who have a free will, won't be in Heaven?  
> Because they break away and then are kicked out.

Or those that exercise that will in a way contrary to the majority are  
kicked out. Well a majority assuming that it's not just a small bunch of  
people with loud presences.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

Post a reply to this message

And lo on Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:25:03 -0000, Stephen <mcavoysATaolDOTcom>  
did spake, saying:

> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:46:58 -0000, "Phil Cook"
> <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>
>> Blasphemer! Stone them, stone them!
>
> Why should the Blasphemers get all the fun :)

Just one (other) mistranslation and things could have been so different
"As punishment for your blasphemy, and as prescribed by our Holy Book, you  
must smoke your way through this entire baggie of grass until you are  
thoroughly stoned"

> A friend of mine explained it perfectly saying.
> "When you're dead, you're dead"
> That works for me.

Unless you're a zombie, or a ghost, or a vampire, or a werewolf... oh wait  
that last one's just stupid; werewolves aren't dead.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

Post a reply to this message

And lo on Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:31:46 -0000, bluetree <nomail@nomail> did  
spake, saying:

> "Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>> Blasphemer! Stone them, stone them!
>
> No. Don't do it. I believe. I believe everything...

Almost as quick as getting Travolta to hit Cruise over the head with a  
shovel; "Yes Scientology does make sense".

>> No you're right they could all Become One With The Mind Of God... ooooo!
>> Or separate from God in a shiny silvery gestalt from which multiple  
>> forms
>> can be made and rule over a race of warriors who... oh wait sorry that's
>> Deep Space Nine.
>
> ^^
> Or they could take the shape of little worm and take over the bodies of  
> some people, who believe everthing (oh, wait, I'm in danger)... oh wait,  
> that was Star Gate... :)

I thought that was Scientology, oh no those are invisible formless little  
'worms'; wait that doesn't make any sens [dong] makes perfect sense, oh  
hey John what's the shovel for?"

>> Hmm think about the types of people who you'd expect to get into Heaven,
>> would you want to spend eternity with them in any form? So the person
>> who's there either a) wants to be there b) has to be there, or is c)
>> stoned.
>
> So b) wouldn't have free will.
> some of c) as well.
> what's about some people of a) who don't want to spend eternity with some
> others?
>
>> Back to the serious bit. I think the gestalt or 'one with the mind of  
>> God'
>> is a possibiity if you think of each individual joining as a voice in  
>> the
>> choir, similar to that voice in your head telling you that you shouldn't
>> eat that gooey cream pie or take a machine-gun to your  
>> co-workers...um...
>> anyway in theory parts could arise that find itself in contest with the
>> majority and might break-away; which would explain the Downfall of the
>> Angels. So that would be a yes to free will.
>
>
> Wouldn't that mean, that those who have a free will, won't be in Heaven?  
> Because they break away and then are kicked out.

Yup you can only get into Heaven via your free will at which point you  
lose it. Hold on I'll get a shovel it'll all make sense in a minute.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

Post a reply to this message

"Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:

> > So b) wouldn't have free will.
>
> Except they realise they don't want to be there, thus have free will.
> Unless you're saying that people in prison don't have free will?

^^
Prisoner: I have a free will.
Prison guard: Yes, I do not deny.
Prisoner: My free will is, that I want to be free and go outside.
Prison guard: You are free, we just improsioned your will. :)

Whew. Strange diaglogue.
At least I found the reason: Your showel was too hard.
No, no, don't flail again. :)

> Yup you can only get into Heaven via your free will at which point you lose it.
> Hold on I'll get a shovel it'll all make sense in a minute.

Heaven-one-way ticket. ;)
Is there a point, where you are able to choose between different stations?

Regards
             bluetree

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:16:16 -0000, "Phil Cook"
<phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:

>And lo on Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:25:03 -0000, Stephen <mcavoysATaolDOTcom>  
>did spake, saying:
>
>> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:46:58 -0000, "Phil Cook"
>> <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>>
>>> Blasphemer! Stone them, stone them!
>>
>> Why should the Blasphemers get all the fun :)
>
>Just one (other) mistranslation and things could have been so different
>"As punishment for your blasphemy, and as prescribed by our Holy Book, you  
>must smoke your way through this entire baggie of grass until you are  
>thoroughly stoned"

They don't call me Saint Stephen for nothing.

Actually they don't call me Saint Stephen at all, at all :)

>> A friend of mine explained it perfectly saying.
>> "When you're dead, you're dead"
>> That works for me.
>
>Unless you're a zombie, or a ghost, or a vampire, or a werewolf... oh wait  
>that last one's just stupid; werewolves aren't dead.
>

Are you some sort of ist? What do you have against Duppies?

Regards
	Stephen

Post a reply to this message

And lo on Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:43:33 -0000, Stephen <mcavoysATaolDOTcom>  
did spake, saying:

> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:16:16 -0000, "Phil Cook"
> <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>
>> And lo on Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:25:03 -0000, Stephen <mcavoysATaolDOTcom>
>> did spake, saying:
>>
>>> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:46:58 -0000, "Phil Cook"
>>> <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Blasphemer! Stone them, stone them!
>>>
>>> Why should the Blasphemers get all the fun :)
>>
>> Just one (other) mistranslation and things could have been so different
>> "As punishment for your blasphemy, and as prescribed by our Holy Book,  
>> you
>> must smoke your way through this entire baggie of grass until you are
>> thoroughly stoned"
>
> They don't call me Saint Stephen for nothing.
>
> Actually they don't call me Saint Stephen at all, at all :)

Ah St. St. so good they named him twice:-P

>>> A friend of mine explained it perfectly saying.
>>> "When you're dead, you're dead"
>>> That works for me.
>>
>> Unless you're a zombie, or a ghost, or a vampire, or a werewolf... oh  
>> wait
>> that last one's just stupid; werewolves aren't dead.
>
> Are you some sort of ist? What do you have against Duppies?

Nothing, I think they're great for an aquarium.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

Post a reply to this message

"Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
> > They don't call me Saint Stephen for nothing.
> >
> > Actually they don't call me Saint Stephen at all, at all :)
>
> Ah St. St. so good they named him twice:-P

It's the same as with other titles. The more Saints he get the more miracles he
can do, am I right? ;)
Isn't there a book talking about Saint Stephen?

Regards
       bluetree

Post a reply to this message

And lo on Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:04:34 -0000, bluetree <nomail@nomail> did  
spake, saying:

> "Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>> > They don't call me Saint Stephen for nothing.
>> >
>> > Actually they don't call me Saint Stephen at all, at all :)
>>
>> Ah St. St. so good they named him twice:-P
>
> It's the same as with other titles. The more Saints he get the more  
> miracles he
> can do, am I right? ;)

So miraculous they named a road after him - St. St. St.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

Post a reply to this message

And lo on Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:39:48 -0000, bluetree <nomail@nomail> did  
spake, saying:

> "Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>
>> > So b) wouldn't have free will.
>>
>> Except they realise they don't want to be there, thus have free will.
>> Unless you're saying that people in prison don't have free will?
>
> ^^
> Prisoner: I have a free will.
> Prison guard: Yes, I do not deny.
> Prisoner: My free will is, that I want to be free and go outside.
> Prison guard: You are free, we just improsioned your will. :)
>
> Whew. Strange diaglogue.

Except in the case of Heaven they thought they wanted to be there; a bit  
like Fawlty Towers I suppose.

> At least I found the reason: Your showel was too hard.
> No, no, don't flail again. :)

That's okay John's flown off with and I don't have another Shovel +2  
Against Reason as blessed by L Ron Hubbard lying around. I could just wrap  
some wires around the handle of a different shovel say it detects "Thetan  
Radiation" and try that if you like?

>> Yup you can only get into Heaven via your free will at which point you  
>> lose it.
>> Hold on I'll get a shovel it'll all make sense in a minute.
>
> Heaven-one-way ticket. ;)

Bloody GWR and you'd paid for an annual season ticket too.

> Is there a point, where you are able to choose between different  
> stations?

Sort of makes you wonder what happens if you get on the wrong train. Ah  
Rowan Atkinson as the Devil guiding people to Hell.

"Christians? Christians this way please; yes the Jews were right"

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

Post a reply to this message

"Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
> > Whew. Strange diaglogue.
>
> Except in the case of Heaven they thought they wanted to be there; a bit
> like Fawlty Towers I suppose.

Then I don't want to check in please.

> > At least I found the reason: Your showel was too hard.
> > No, no, don't flail again. :)
>
> That's okay John's flown off with and I don't have another Shovel +2
> Against Reason as blessed by L Ron Hubbard lying around. I could just wrap
> some wires around the handle of a different shovel say it detects "Thetan
> Radiation" and try that if you like?

Hihi, won't work, because I have an atheistic shield +20. :P

> >> Yup you can only get into Heaven via your free will at which point you
> >> lose it.
> >> Hold on I'll get a shovel it'll all make sense in a minute.
> >
> > Heaven-one-way ticket. ;)

Annual season ticket for one way, that's not fair!!

> Bloody GWR and you'd paid for an annual season ticket too.
>
> > Is there a point, where you are able to choose between different
> > stations?
>
> Sort of makes you wonder what happens if you get on the wrong train. Ah
> Rowan Atkinson as the Devil guiding people to Hell.
>
> "Christians? Christians this way please; yes the Jews were right"

^^
And at last it leads to the question: Is there free will in hell? ;)

Regards

             bluetree

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Phil Cook wrote:
> There's a precedent.

My understanding is that angels don't have free will. I could be wrong 
on that, tho. Anybody got a chapter/verse on it?

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     On what day did God create the body thetans?

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On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:53:00 -0000, "Phil Cook"
<phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:

>And lo on Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:43:33 -0000, Stephen <mcavoysATaolDOTcom>  
>did spake, saying:
>
>> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:16:16 -0000, "Phil Cook"
>> <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>>
>>> And lo on Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:25:03 -0000, Stephen <mcavoysATaolDOTcom>
>>> did spake, saying:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:46:58 -0000, "Phil Cook"
>>>> <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Blasphemer! Stone them, stone them!
>>>>
>>>> Why should the Blasphemers get all the fun :)
>>>
>>> Just one (other) mistranslation and things could have been so different
>>> "As punishment for your blasphemy, and as prescribed by our Holy Book,  
>>> you
>>> must smoke your way through this entire baggie of grass until you are
>>> thoroughly stoned"
>>
>> They don't call me Saint Stephen for nothing.
>>
>> Actually they don't call me Saint Stephen at all, at all :)
>
>Ah St. St. so good they named him twice:-P
>

LOL (in a Welsh accent)


>>> Unless you're a zombie, or a ghost, or a vampire, or a werewolf... oh  
>>> wait
>>> that last one's just stupid; werewolves aren't dead.
>>
>> Are you some sort of ist? What do you have against Duppies?
>
>Nothing, I think they're great for an aquarium.
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duppy

Regards
	Stephen

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???... does all this mean that I get to mess up my wings?

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:20:48 -0000, "Phil Cook"
<phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:

>And lo on Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:04:34 -0000, bluetree <nomail@nomail> did  
>spake, saying:
>
>> "Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>>> > They don't call me Saint Stephen for nothing.
>>> >
>>> > Actually they don't call me Saint Stephen at all, at all :)
>>>
>>> Ah St. St. so good they named him twice:-P
>>
>> It's the same as with other titles. The more Saints he get the more  
>> miracles he
>> can do, am I right? ;)
>
>So miraculous they named a road after him - St. St. St.
>
>-- 
>Phil Cook

I'm still here you know. I do take sugar.

Regards
	Stephen

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Stephen <mcavoysATaolDOTcom@> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:20:48 -0000, "Phil Cook"
> <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>
> >And lo on Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:04:34 -0000, bluetree <nomail@nomail> did
> >spake, saying:
> >
> >> "Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
> >>> > They don't call me Saint Stephen for nothing.
> >>> >
> >>> > Actually they don't call me Saint Stephen at all, at all :)
> >>>
> >>> Ah St. St. so good they named him twice:-P
> >>
> >> It's the same as with other titles. The more Saints he get the more
> >> miracles he
> >> can do, am I right? ;)
> >
> >So miraculous they named a road after him - St. St. St.
> >
> >--
> >Phil Cook
>
> I'm still here you know. I do take sugar.
>
> Regards
>  Stephen


Sorry! It's only respect not to talk directly to a Saint. :)
Does he also take some milk? <- really not respectless dear Sir Saint Stephen,
I hope, he won't get angry... ;)

Regards
             bluetree

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