OK, so check this out... At home I have a wireless optical mouse. I've 
had it for several years now, and it has always worked perfectly.

However, a few weeks ago I reinstalled Windoze. And ever since that 
point in time, the mouse hasn't worked properly. Most of the time it 
works normally, but every now and then it suddenly stops working 
completely. The light on the base station still twinkles when I move it 
or press the buttons, but the computer fails to respond. (Keyboard 
commands work, just not mouse commands.)

The *only* thing that fixes this condition is a reboot. No amount of 
reconnecting the USB cable has any effect.

Obviously, this is intensely frustrating, far beyond my powers of 
description. Last night I was playing an official TF2 match, and my 
mouse quit working. That means I now can't shoot, steer, look around, or 
talk to my teammates over Ventrillo.

[In spite of this - and much to my amusement - I managed to actually 
capture a control point. Basically I staggered in there sideways and 
nobody tried to stop me. And my teammates had done almost all the work 
first... Basically the two teams clashed, everybody died, and then I 
stumbled in. What fluke!]

Anyway, does *anybody* have *any* idea why reinstalling Windoze has made 
my mouse malfunction so badly??

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

> Anyway, does *anybody* have *any* idea why reinstalling Windoze has made 
> my mouse malfunction so badly??

I would check the drivers for the mouse, USB ports and any other "mainboard" 
type drivers.  There might be some different version now than before the 
reinstall.

Then I'd try a different mouse, just to see.

When it stops working, is the mouse still "there" (ie in device manager) or 
does Windows think it has gone?

Post a reply to this message

>> Anyway, does *anybody* have *any* idea why reinstalling Windoze has 
>> made my mouse malfunction so badly??
> 
> I would check the drivers for the mouse, USB ports and any other 
> "mainboard" type drivers.  There might be some different version now 
> than before the reinstall.

When I originally installed Windoze, I used the CDs that came in the 
box. However, I now have a dual-core CPU, and [I forget exactly what 
happened] I couldn't get Windoze to work properly without using the 
latest motherboard drivers. Go figure.

So, new motherboard drivers. (The mouse itself doesn't have any drivers 
- or rather, it does, but I've never used them. The drivers are to 
activate the 15 buttons that I don't use. 3 buttons is enough for me...)

> Then I'd try a different mouse, just to see.

Yeah, if I had one...

> When it stops working, is the mouse still "there" (ie in device manager) 
> or does Windows think it has gone?

It's very hard to check.

10 years ago, I used a sophisticated operating system called AmigaOS. It 
was possible to operate this without a mouse, because there was a set of 
keyboard shortcuts for moving the mouse pointer and clicking mouse 
buttons. However, to my absolute frustration [indeed, near rage], 
Windoze doesn't appear to support such a feature. So you have to guess 
what keyboard shortcuts every individual program uses [assuming it 
provides any at all]. Grrr!!

I do have a very vague recallection that maybe I had the mouse plugged 
into the PS/2 port before, whereas now it's in a USB port. However, I 
*cannot* find the USB-PS/2 adaptor anywhere, so...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

>> When it stops working, is the mouse still "there" (ie in device manager) 
>> or does Windows think it has gone?
> 
> It's very hard to check.
> 
> 10 years ago, I used a sophisticated operating system called AmigaOS...

Try this:
 
Windows + Break/Pause (or go through My Computer to control panel)
Right arrow key twice
Tab
Space
Tab

Then use the arrow keys (right is expand) to search through.

It's the same in all windows programs that use standard forms.

Post a reply to this message

"Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message 
news:478b4cd5$1@news.povray.org...

> 10 years ago, I used a sophisticated operating system called AmigaOS. It 
> was possible to operate this without a mouse, because there was a set of 
> keyboard shortcuts for moving the mouse pointer and clicking mouse 
> buttons. However, to my absolute frustration [indeed, near rage], Windoze 
> doesn't appear to support such a feature. So you have to guess what 
> keyboard shortcuts every individual program uses [assuming it provides any 
> at all]. Grrr!!

The keybaord shortcuts are the letters that are underlined when you press 
the "Alt" key.

Fyi You can always use "Tab" and the arrow keys to scroll between 
highlighted options and Space-Bar to select.

To get Windows to always underline the shortcuts without using a mouse:
press the Windows button (between L-Ctrl and L-Alt)
Navigate to Control-Panel with the arrow keys.
Navigate to "Appearance and Themes" and then "Display"
Press "Tab" until the top tabs is highlighted.
Now use your < > arrow keys to navigate to "Appearance"
Press "Tab" untill "Effects" is highlighted and press the Space Bar.
Press "Tab" untill "Hide underlined letters for keyboard navigation untill I 
press the Alt key"

I hope this helps...

-- 
-Nekar Xenos-

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:

> Anyway, does *anybody* have *any* idea why reinstalling Windoze has made 
> my mouse malfunction so badly??

Because Windows is as buggy as an outhouse in the summer?

Regards,
John

Post a reply to this message

Tried new batteries?

Post a reply to this message

The Afro wrote:
> Tried new batteries?

If it was the batteries,

1. The receive light wouldn't be twinkling.

2. Rebooting the PC wouldn't fix the problem.

3. It wouldn't have suddenly started happening at exactly the time I 
changed some software.

FWIW, yes, I have changed the batteries several times. However, usually 
when the batteries fail, the mouse starts to gradually move slower than 
usual before actually stopping. This is quite different...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

"Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:478b4cd5$1@news.povray.org...

> I couldn't get Windoze to work properly without using the
> latest motherboard drivers. Go figure

Why does that surprise you?

"Hi, I'd like you to run on this motherboard, but I'm not going to tell you
what it does or how to make it do anything"

> So, new motherboard drivers. (The mouse itself doesn't have any drivers
> - or rather, it does, but I've never used them. The drivers are to
> activate the 15 buttons that I don't use. 3 buttons is enough for me...)

Try installing them anyway. It might be that the default drivers aren't
totally compatible with your mouse.

> > When it stops working, is the mouse still "there" (ie in device manager)
> > or does Windows think it has gone?
>
> It's very hard to check.
>
> 10 years ago, I used a sophisticated operating system called AmigaOS. It
> was possible to operate this without a mouse

Windows isn't that hard to run without a mouse. Some apps have poor
shortcuts, but most do have them. I recall the fun of using my university
machine (win 98) for a week without a mouse, after I poured coffee over the
mouse.

I just tried to get to the device manager without using the mouse, Took
around 20 keystrokes.
There are just a few useful shortcuts that you need to remember
Ctrl-Esc opens the start menu. (as does the win key if you have that)
Alt-spacebar brings up the move/resize menu for any window
Tab moves you from pane to pane in things like device manager or explorer
and from one anchor to another in a web browser

Post a reply to this message

> 3. It wouldn't have suddenly started happening at exactly the time I 
> changed some software.

Why not?

Post a reply to this message

Gail Shaw wrote:

>> I couldn't get Windoze to work properly without using the
>> latest motherboard drivers. Go figure
> 
> Why does that surprise you?

Because for the last 4 years it's worked perfectly fine with the 
existing drivers, and now suddenly it won't. It's not like drivers 
suddenly stop working after X years...

>> So, new motherboard drivers. (The mouse itself doesn't have any drivers
>> - or rather, it does, but I've never used them. The drivers are to
>> activate the 15 buttons that I don't use. 3 buttons is enough for me...)
> 
> Try installing them anyway. It might be that the default drivers aren't
> totally compatible with your mouse.

OK. I'll see if I can find the disk...

>> 10 years ago, I used a sophisticated operating system called AmigaOS. It
>> was possible to operate this without a mouse
> 
> Windows isn't that hard to run without a mouse. Some apps have poor
> shortcuts, but most do have them. I recall the fun of using my university
> machine (win 98) for a week without a mouse, after I poured coffee over the
> mouse.

The point being, if you have keys to move the mouse and click the 
button, *every* program can be completely operated using only the 
keyboard. That includes e.g. games [where the developers don't think 
about mouseless operation].

Hmm... I wonder if anybody has developed a small 3rd party solution to this?

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>> 3. It wouldn't have suddenly started happening at exactly the time I 
>> changed some software.
> 
> Why not?

Why would software make the batteries go flat?

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

> The point being, if you have keys to move the mouse and click the button, 
> *every* program can be completely operated using only the keyboard.

But *really* slowly, compared to using Tab to cycle through the available 
things to click on, or using Alt+shortcut.

> Hmm... I wonder if anybody has developed a small 3rd party solution to 
> this?

Control Panel -> Accessibility -> Mouse -> "Use MouseKeys".

Post a reply to this message

>>> 3. It wouldn't have suddenly started happening at exactly the time I 
>>> changed some software.
>>
>> Why not?
>
> Why would software make the batteries go flat?

It wouldn't.  But it's certainly not impossible the batteries ran flat at 
the time you changed software.

BTW did you try running Windows in safe mode for a while to see if the same 
thing happens?

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>> The point being, if you have keys to move the mouse and click the 
>> button, *every* program can be completely operated using only the 
>> keyboard.
> 
> But *really* slowly

Oh yeah, sure. Having real keyboard shotcuts is faster when they're 
there, but being able to do the thing at all is better than nothing...

>> Hmm... I wonder if anybody has developed a small 3rd party solution to 
>> this?
> 
> Control Panel -> Accessibility -> Mouse -> "Use MouseKeys".

Ah. Interesting...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>>>> 3. It wouldn't have suddenly started happening at exactly the time I 
>>>> changed some software.
>>>
>>> Why not?
>>
>> Why would software make the batteries go flat?
> 
> It wouldn't.  But it's certainly not impossible the batteries ran flat 
> at the time you changed software.

No, just really unlikely. ;-) Anyway, as I said, changing the batteries 
was the first thing I did - until I noticed that the activity light is 
still going, indicating the signal *is* being received.

> BTW did you try running Windows in safe mode for a while to see if the 
> same thing happens?

No - but I could do...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

Invisible nous apporta ses lumieres en ce 2008/01/14 06:51:
>>> Anyway, does *anybody* have *any* idea why reinstalling Windoze has 
>>> made my mouse malfunction so badly??
>>
>> I would check the drivers for the mouse, USB ports and any other 
>> "mainboard" type drivers.  There might be some different version now 
>> than before the reinstall.
> 
> When I originally installed Windoze, I used the CDs that came in the 
> box. However, I now have a dual-core CPU, and [I forget exactly what 
> happened] I couldn't get Windoze to work properly without using the 
> latest motherboard drivers. Go figure.
> 
> So, new motherboard drivers. (The mouse itself doesn't have any drivers 
> - or rather, it does, but I've never used them. The drivers are to 
> activate the 15 buttons that I don't use. 3 buttons is enough for me...)
> 
>> Then I'd try a different mouse, just to see.
> 
> Yeah, if I had one...
> 
>> When it stops working, is the mouse still "there" (ie in device 
>> manager) or does Windows think it has gone?
> 
> It's very hard to check.
> 
> 10 years ago, I used a sophisticated operating system called AmigaOS. It 
> was possible to operate this without a mouse, because there was a set of 
> keyboard shortcuts for moving the mouse pointer and clicking mouse 
> buttons. However, to my absolute frustration [indeed, near rage], 
> Windoze doesn't appear to support such a feature. So you have to guess 
> what keyboard shortcuts every individual program uses [assuming it 
> provides any at all]. Grrr!!
> 
> I do have a very vague recallection that maybe I had the mouse plugged 
> into the PS/2 port before, whereas now it's in a USB port. However, I 
> *cannot* find the USB-PS/2 adaptor anywhere, so...
> 
New hardware, going from single core to dual core, new mother board drivers.
The environment of your mouse have changed dramaticaly. There may be some 
conflict somewhere.
Even if you don't need almost all of the funtionality, try installing the latest 
drivers, maybe using the personalised setup if there is one.

-- 
Alain
-------------------------------------------------
   Last night my wife met me at the front door. She was wearing a Sexy negligee. 
The only trouble was, she was coming home.
	Rodney Dangerfield

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v7 nous apporta ses lumieres en ce 2008/01/14 17:46:
> The Afro wrote:
>> Tried new batteries?
> 
> If it was the batteries,
> 
> 1. The receive light wouldn't be twinkling.
> 
> 2. Rebooting the PC wouldn't fix the problem.
> 
> 3. It wouldn't have suddenly started happening at exactly the time I 
> changed some software.
> 
> FWIW, yes, I have changed the batteries several times. However, usually 
> when the batteries fail, the mouse starts to gradually move slower than 
> usual before actually stopping. This is quite different...
> 
What software did you change? Maybe the changed software is misbehaving, puting, 
altering or removing some system hooks, and not preserving the correct ones.
I've seen that a LOT. Programs altering some thing, then restoring that thing to 
what the developer *assumed* to be "universal" settings, but not the ones that 
you need to have a workable configuration.

-- 
Alain
-------------------------------------------------
You know you've been raytracing too long when you read each of these quotes.
Mike Weber

Post a reply to this message

"Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:478c7e3c$1@news.povray.org...

> Because for the last 4 years it's worked perfectly fine with the
> existing drivers, and now suddenly it won't. It's not like drivers
> suddenly stop working after X years...

Ah. I got the impression that you had bought a new motherboard.

> The point being, if you have keys to move the mouse and click the
> button, *every* program can be completely operated using only the
> keyboard. That includes e.g. games [where the developers don't think
> about mouseless operation].

*imagines trying to navigate mouse with keyboard* *shudder*
Give me short cut keys any day

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 18:18:40 +0200, "Gail Shaw" <initialsurname@sentech sa dot
com> wrote:

>
>*imagines trying to navigate mouse with keyboard* *shudder*
>Give me short cut keys any day

IIRC it was part of the win 2.x or 3.x setup. Not everyone had a mouse in those
days.
I've just noticed that there is some junk DNA left. 
Put a windows app in restore mode (not maximised) with the mouse click the
top-left most icon and select size. You can then resize the window with the
cursor keys. I can't remember how to access this menu with the keyboard.


Regards
	Stephen

Post a reply to this message

>> Because for the last 4 years it's worked perfectly fine with the
>> existing drivers, and now suddenly it won't. It's not like drivers
>> suddenly stop working after X years...
> 
> Ah. I got the impression that you had bought a new motherboard.

Nope. Only new thing is the CPU. (Was 1-core, now 2-core.) Since I did 
that, the existing drivers don't work reliably any more...

>> The point being, if you have keys to move the mouse and click the
>> button, *every* program can be completely operated using only the
>> keyboard. That includes e.g. games [where the developers don't think
>> about mouseless operation].
> 
> *imagines trying to navigate mouse with keyboard* *shudder*
> Give me short cut keys any day

Much faster if specific keyboard shortcuts exist - but if they don't, 
it's better than having to reboot the entire PC to get control back 
[quitting POV-Ray in the process].

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

"Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:478ce1aa$1@news.povray.org...
>
> Much faster if specific keyboard shortcuts exist - but if they don't,
> it's better than having to reboot the entire PC to get control back
> [quitting POV-Ray in the process].
>

Last time my mouse ran the batteries flat (and I didn't have charged spares)
I used the machine for the rest of the day with no mouse.  It wasn't
difficult. There are enough shortcut keys built into windows to navigate
most apps (unless you're doing some photoshop or 3d modeller work)

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:28:43 +0000, Stephen wrote:

>  I
> can't remember how to access this menu with the keyboard.

Alt+Space IIRC.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On 15 Jan 2008 11:57:41 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:28:43 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>
>>  I
>> can't remember how to access this menu with the keyboard.
>
>Alt+Space IIRC.
>
>Jim

Right as usual 
:)

Regards
	Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:
> Because for the last 4 years it's worked perfectly fine with the 
> existing drivers, and now suddenly it won't. It's not like drivers 
> suddenly stop working after X years...

OK. I'll bite. Then why did you reinstall Windows?

> Hmm... I wonder if anybody has developed a small 3rd party solution to 
> this?

I wouldn't be surprised if the "accessibility" features allow it.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     It's not feature creep if you put it
     at the end and adjust the release date.

Post a reply to this message

Darren New wrote:
> Invisible wrote:
>> Because for the last 4 years it's worked perfectly fine with the 
>> existing drivers, and now suddenly it won't. It's not like drivers 
>> suddenly stop working after X years...
> 
> OK. I'll bite. Then why did you reinstall Windows?

I was hoping to - get this - improve stability...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 17:23:15 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 15 Jan 2008 11:57:41 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
>>On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:28:43 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>>
>>>  I
>>> can't remember how to access this menu with the keyboard.
>>
>>Alt+Space IIRC.
>>
>>Jim
> 
> Right as usual
> :)

Wow, and I didn't even have to boot Windows up.  Of course, it helps that 
the same keystroke does the same thing in GNOME. ;-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Alain escribió:
> The environment of your mouse have changed dramaticaly.

Yeah, poor little rat is all lost in the new house... :(

Post a reply to this message

I suggest the following:
- Upgrade your BIOS if you haven't already, most MoBo(MotherBoard)
manufacturers recommend you to do so when you upgrade from 1 to 2 or
from 2 to 4. This is not very important, but is recommendable to avoid
incompatibility issues and maybe to add small/big improvements to your
MoBo functionality.

- Check in the BIOS Setup a option for "USB Mouse Support" if it has one.

- Download new drivers or use the current ones, just don't configure all
the buttons or set them to do nothing and configure the 3 buttons you
use to work as you have now, but probably you wont have to do anything
as those 3 buttons defaults are good enough, except maybe the
middle/third one. I don't think it would be too hard to do.

- You said you put some new software, what software? new version
Windows? if so that maybe is the reason.

-

Post a reply to this message

After many weeks of searching (!), I finally found a USB to PS/2 adaptor 
and plugged my mouse back into the PS/2 port. So far it was worked 
utterly flawlessly ever since. Go figure!

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v7 wrote:
> After many weeks of searching (!), I finally found a USB to PS/2 adaptor 
> and plugged my mouse back into the PS/2 port. So far it was worked 
> utterly flawlessly ever since. Go figure!
> 

Hmmm.. I have the cheapie mouse that came with an IBM computer that has 
a terrible time with it's optical sensor. Every once in a while the 
cursor will jump a far distance from where I was for no good reason. 
Never has happened on the various MS opticals I've used, but this one 
does it repeatedly.

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:
> OK, so check this out... At home I have a wireless optical mouse. I've 
> had it for several years now, and it has always worked perfectly.
> 
> However, a few weeks ago I reinstalled Windoze. And ever since that 
> point in time, the mouse hasn't worked properly. Most of the time it 
> works normally, but every now and then it suddenly stops working 
> completely. The light on the base station still twinkles when I move it 
> or press the buttons, but the computer fails to respond. (Keyboard 
> commands work, just not mouse commands.)
> 
> The *only* thing that fixes this condition is a reboot. No amount of 
> reconnecting the USB cable has any effect.
> 
> Obviously, this is intensely frustrating, far beyond my powers of 
> description. Last night I was playing an official TF2 match, and my 
> mouse quit working. That means I now can't shoot, steer, look around, or 
> talk to my teammates over Ventrillo.
> 
> [In spite of this - and much to my amusement - I managed to actually 
> capture a control point. Basically I staggered in there sideways and 
> nobody tried to stop me. And my teammates had done almost all the work 
> first... Basically the two teams clashed, everybody died, and then I 
> stumbled in. What fluke!]
> 
> Anyway, does *anybody* have *any* idea why reinstalling Windoze has made 
> my mouse malfunction so badly??
> 

maybe this has something to do with it

http://www.neystadt.org/john/humor/IBM-Mouse-Balls.htm

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v7 wrote:
> After many weeks of searching (!), I finally found a USB to PS/2 adaptor 
> and plugged my mouse back into the PS/2 port. So far it was worked 
> utterly flawlessly ever since. Go figure!
> 
lol, yeah that happened to me too: at my work I'm using a USB mouse that 
  didn't even move when connected to the USB port but with a USB --> PS2 
adapter the things is alive and kicking. Looks like the USB interface of 
the mouse is not working well enough for the USB port but enough to 
"hand shake" with the PS2 interface. I really would like to know why 
this happens.

I loved your: "So far it was worked utterly flawlessly ever since. Go 
figure!" heheheh :D

Post a reply to this message

Saul Luizaga wrote:
> the mouse is not working well enough for the USB port but enough to 
> "hand shake" with the PS2 interface.

If the adaptor is simple, there's virtually no electronics in it, and 
what you really have is a mouse that will do either, with the signals 
going over different pins.

> I really would like to know why this happens.

Check your BIOS for "legacy USB support" - that means to recognise mouse 
and keyboard on USB ports.  That's all I can think of offhand.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     On what day did God create the body thetans?

Post a reply to this message

Darren New wrote:
> Saul Luizaga wrote:
>> the mouse is not working well enough for the USB port but enough to 
>> "hand shake" with the PS2 interface.
> 
> If the adaptor is simple, there's virtually no electronics in it, and 
> what you really have is a mouse that will do either, with the signals 
> going over different pins.

hmm, I think may have very simple electronics since both are serial 
ports and would explain why the flawlessness of the buggy USB mouse 
interface. At least is what I think.

>> I really would like to know why this happens.
> 
> Check your BIOS for "legacy USB support" - that means to recognise mouse 
> and keyboard on USB ports.  That's all I can think of offhand.
> 
Already did Darren, i'm a PC tech so was the first thing to check :)

Post a reply to this message

Saul Luizaga wrote:
> hmm, I think may have very simple electronics

You never read the USB spec, did you? It's actually rather complex. :-) 
That it's serial is like saying "SATA is serial" or "SONET is serial."

> Already did Darren, i'm a PC tech so was the first thing to check :)

Cool. Heck, *I* didn't know what it meant six months ago. :-)

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     On what day did God create the body thetans?

Post a reply to this message

Darren New wrote:
> Saul Luizaga wrote:
>> hmm, I think may have very simple electronics
> 
> You never read the USB spec, did you? It's actually rather complex. :-) 
> That it's serial is like saying "SATA is serial" or "SONET is serial."

aren't they? maybe complexfor the very high speeds but AFAK they are 
serial techs, similar to PCI-Express.

>> Already did Darren, i'm a PC tech so was the first thing to check :)
> 
> Cool. Heck, *I* didn't know what it meant six months ago. :-)
> 
good for you :)

Post a reply to this message

Saul Luizaga wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> Saul Luizaga wrote:
>>> hmm, I think may have very simple electronics
>>
>> You never read the USB spec, did you? It's actually rather complex. 
>> :-) That it's serial is like saying "SATA is serial" or "SONET is 
>> serial."
> 
> aren't they? maybe complexfor the very high speeds but AFAK they are 
> serial techs, similar to PCI-Express.

I don't know about PCI-Express, but I'm just saying the fact that 
they're serial doesn't make them "simple". The USB spec is something 
like 250 pages or so, and that's just for the basics shared by all USB 
devices, like the ability to plug in, be recognised, and sync with the host.

(SONET is what telcos use to put voice and data over fiber, multiplexed. 
It's not simple either. :)

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     On what day did God create the body thetans?

Post a reply to this message

Saul Luizaga wrote:

>> You never read the USB spec, did you? It's actually rather complex. 
>> :-) That it's serial is like saying "SATA is serial" or "SONET is 
>> serial."
> 
> aren't they? maybe complexfor the very high speeds but AFAK they are 
> serial techs, similar to PCI-Express.

USB has a whole communications protocol to go with it. Think about 
TCP/IP and how complicated that is, and you get some idea of how much 
work a typical USB device has to do in order to work. Sure, the 
*physical* signalling is a simple serial bus, but if you want to *do* 
anything with it... ;-)

*continues stalking Darren*

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v7 escribió:
> Saul Luizaga wrote:
> 
>>> You never read the USB spec, did you? It's actually rather complex. 
>>> :-) That it's serial is like saying "SATA is serial" or "SONET is 
>>> serial."
>>
>> aren't they? maybe complexfor the very high speeds but AFAK they are 
>> serial techs, similar to PCI-Express.
> 
> USB has a whole communications protocol to go with it. Think about 
> TCP/IP and how complicated that is, and you get some idea of how much 
> work a typical USB device has to do in order to work. Sure, the 
> *physical* signalling is a simple serial bus, but if you want to *do* 
> anything with it... ;-)

And also think of the hundreds of protocols you can talk over TCP.

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>> USB has a whole communications protocol to go with it. Think about 
>> TCP/IP and how complicated that is, and you get some idea of how much 
>> work a typical USB device has to do in order to work. Sure, the 
>> *physical* signalling is a simple serial bus, but if you want to *do* 
>> anything with it... ;-)
> 
> And also think of the hundreds of protocols you can talk over TCP.

Well, yeah, beyond the basic USB spec, there's the Mass Storage Device 
protocol (pendrives and external HD enclosures) and the Human Interface 
Device protocol (keyboards and mice) and various printer and scanner 
protocols (those tend to be proprietry) and...

For example, did you know that a USB device is supposed to "ask 
permission" before drawing more than X amount of current? (Most USB mug 
warmers disregard that part of the spec.) The idea being that if you 
have a powered hub, it can warn the attached device "no, don't do that" 
if the total load would be too great.

And that's something that *all* USB devices are supposed to do. Also, 
you can plug USB hubs into USB hubs to create quite extensive tangles of 
devices. And yet, the host has to be able to address each device 
individually. So an addressing and routing problem exists. Not nearly as 
severe as on the Internet (there is only 1 master and many slaves here, 
which simplifies greatly), but it's still nontrivial to overcome. Each 
USB device needs to end up with a unique ID so you can talk to it, and 
all the intervening hubs need to know how to route traffic to it correctly.

USB is *way* more than "just a serial protocol"...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Orchid XP v7 escribió:
> For example, did you know that a USB device is supposed to "ask 
> permission" before drawing more than X amount of current? (Most USB mug 
> warmers disregard that part of the spec.) The idea being that if you 
> have a powered hub, it can warn the attached device "no, don't do that" 
> if the total load would be too great.

Yes, and that's about the *only* interesting fact I knew about it :)

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Orchid XP v7 wrote:
> *physical* signalling is a simple serial bus,

Not even that, when you consider USB 2 and USB 1 over the same wires.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     On what day did God create the body thetans?

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