On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:09:42 -0800, Chambers wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> I can't disagree with any of those - though I have to admit the
>> lightsaber fight between Luke and Vader in Jedi was beautiful to watch
>> with the contrast between the dark backgrounds and the bright sabers.
>> And the wide shots of that fight were very good.  Too much today fight
>> scenes are a series of close-up cutaways, and while the "action" is
>> faster, it doesn't feel as authentic.  I wish fight scenes were more
>> often shot from a distance sufficient to see the combatants and the
>> camera was more or less stationary.  With good fighters, many fight
>> scenes would be absolutely beautiful if they just let us watch it in
>> one shot.
> 
> You've got a problem there - most actors can't do an entire fight in one
> shot.

Well, true, but even with actors who are capable of it, there aren't a 
lot of long shots.  Honestly, I could sit and watch Jet Li do Wu Shu 
nonstop for 90 minutes, and I think he could handle it (or at least in 
his prime he could have, not sure now that he's older).

But even if it was just a couple of cutaways, that'd be OK; the thing 
that bothers me is the constant switching of camera angle and the fact 
that many of the shots are so close you can't really tell what's going 
on.  It looks sloppy.

> That was one of the unmentioned strengths of the second Matrix movie,
> that the shots for the fight scenes were much longer than in the
> original.

True.  That was about the only thing Matrix 2 had going for it, though; I 
was very disappointed in the sequels.  Technically they were stunning 
nonetheless, but I think they would've worked better if Neo's final line 
from the first had actually been what 2 & 3 were all about, instead of 
just another big techno-war.  The thing that worked for me about the 
first one is that the technology supported the story.  In 2 & 3, the 
technology *was* the story, and 2 & 3 to an extent suffered the loss of 
humanity that was present in the first one.

> Also, the recent version of "Pride and Prejudice" (the one with Keira
> Knightley) had some rather long shots in it, with the camera moving
> through various rooms and people / events / conversations coming into
> and out of focus in it.  In one scene in particular, I was like "That's
> cool, moving the camera that way... Huh, they haven't cut yet... Wow,
> this is still the same take!"  It's the kind of thing you can imagine
> getting all the way to the end, and someone making a dumb mistake and
> ruining the whole shot, but nobody did.  I was very impressed by that :)

It is impressive when they can do that - and I for one (and my wife for 
another) appreciate the difficulty of shots like that and tend to be 
impressed by good cinematography.

Jim

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Kevin Wampler wrote:
> 
> I've seen a couple of movies which take the long shot to its extreme and
> film the entire movie in essentially one uninterrupted shot.  There's
> Rope by Hitchcock and a more recent film Russian Ark.  The former is a

	Rope is a good movie. 9 takes, I believe. Sort of scary given that it's
based on a true story.

> pretty good suspense film, and the latter, while a bit dull, has
> absolutely stunning camera work.  I'd take a look if you're interested
> in that sort of thing.  Apparently Russian Ark also took only two takes
> to get right, which is very impressive for a movie which is over an hour
> and a half long.

	Two takes? I haven't seen it, but I saw a trailer for it years ago. It
claimed one take.

-- 
FREE! FREE! One shoe shined absolutely free.


                    /\  /\               /\  /
                   /  \/  \ u e e n     /  \/  a w a z
                       >>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
                                   anl

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Mueen Nawaz wrote:
> 	Two takes? I haven't seen it, but I saw a trailer for it years ago. It
> claimed one take.


I might be remembering incorrectly, but I recalled that something went 
wrong during the first take and they had to try it again.  It is one 
uninterrupted shot though, and weather it took one take or two I'm still 
very impressed.

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Kevin Wampler wrote:
> I might be remembering incorrectly, but I recalled that something went
> wrong during the first take and they had to try it again.  It is one
> uninterrupted shot though, and weather it took one take or two I'm still
> very impressed.

	I see - I was misinterpreting the word "take". So it took two takes to
make, but the movie is one long take.

-- 
To be frank, I'd have to change my name.


                    /\  /\               /\  /
                   /  \/  \ u e e n     /  \/  a w a z
                       >>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
                                   anl

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And lo on Sat, 12 Jan 2008 03:09:06 -0000, Mueen Nawaz <m.n### [at] ieeeorg>  
did spake, saying:

> Phil Cook wrote:
>> But we're not necessariy talking real-life we're talking self-contained
>> film universe.
>
> 	Fair enough, but I've found people's expectations of how people should
> behave in those universes differs widely.
>
>> But the 'just reciting lines' is more then what is said it's all the
>> accompanying body language too; just watch some old (or not so old)
>> silent movies to see the difference. If you want some fun watch all the
>
> 	I've watched a number of old movies, including silent ones.
>
> 	I see patterns in acting behavior for different eras. Some quite
> different from the modern era. Yes, they had a different acting style,
> but what's your point? It just means that people expected something
> differently back then.
>
> 	I have a colleague who used to badmouth B&W movies because they're
> acting was "horrible". So I finally got sick of it and asked, "And the
> acting these days is better how?". He's a smart guy. Thought about it
> for a few minutes, and then retracted his statement.

I was responding to the reciting lines bit by pointing out it's possible  
to have bad acting in silent movies that by definition don't have anyone  
saying anything.

> 	It really is all subjective.
>
>>>     I have no issues with people liking/disliking the acting in movies.
>>> Arguing about it, however, seems futile. "Good" acting almost comes  
>>> down
>>> to a personal preference. Like one's taste in music.
>>
>> But what else have you got to measure it by? If 90% of the audience say
>> "Wow that acting was bad" how can you say "Well that's only your
>> subjective opinon"?
>
> 	Yes.
>
> 	Have you never liked music that 90% of the world dislikes? Would you
> change your mind and say the music is bad because they do?
>
> 	Or movies?
>
> 	Or books?
>
> 	It seems you're trying to _define_ the quality of acting to be more or
> less: Whatever the audience at the time expects...

Indeed, however I can normally see what they're complaining about I just  
didn't notice or don't care.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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And lo on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:25:52 -0000, Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> did  
spake, saying:

> Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>> #2 2001 Space Oddessy.
>
>   I just rented it because it's more than 10 years since I last saw it.

Heh and I just watched it over the weekend

> It's surprisingly good, especially considering that it was made in 1968.
> While not perfect, many space movies made decades later with better
> movie-making technology look worse and have more physical inaccuracies.

Oh I liked the physical stuff and the interspersion between the raspy  
breathing and total silence of space is something every SF film director  
should take a note of, but it was the design flaws that drove me nuts. Hmm  
the most likely reason to perform EVA would be to get to the engines or  
dish so we'll put the pods at the front of the ship so they have to rotate  
180 degrees then move around the cockpit to get there. Hard points to  
attach the EVA pod to the ship so I don't need to float so far? Nah. The  
ability to dock the EVA pod to the emergency door? Nah. An easy to access  
emergency computer override system? Nah the 9000 series is perfect which  
is why they had a Computer Malfunction alert on the hibernation pods.  
Ducking through doors - just make them taller. Ladders to climb up/down  
things that only allow one person at a time. Door control panels on said  
ladders that are at the top/bottom of the shaft rather then next to the  
door. Put the engines well out of the way along this spindly connection so  
they're difficult to get to and easily severed from the rest of the ship.  
Etc., etc.

>   Anyways, as for being incomprehensible... Only the last 15 minutes or
> so were incomprehensibly abstract (and, according to the director,
> completely on purpose), but everything before that was quite clear and
> straightforward.

Well you do also go to a jump from radio burst on the Moon to a 18 month  
later ship heading to Jupiter, which may make you go 'huh, what happened  
then?'

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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And lo on Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:47:45 -0000, Jim Henderson  
<nos### [at] nospamcom> did spake, saying:

> On Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:26:40 -0800, Chambers wrote:
>
>> Mueen Nawaz wrote:
>>> Chambers wrote:
>>>> 2053 was decent when I read it (I think I was 15 at the time).  I
>>>> couldn't stomach more than a chapter or two of 3001, however (17yo
>>>> when I tried to read it?).
>>>
>>> 	I must have missed out on 2053. I read 2061...
>>>
>>>
>> That was probably it (how am I supposed to remember a random number
>> close to fifteen years later?)
>
> 2^2677009:1 against.
>
> (Name that number!)

Picking up Ford and Arthur in the ship (whose name I can't recall) in  
Hitchhiker's.... ?

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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Phil Cook <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
> but it was the design flaws that drove me nuts.

  There were, of course, also physical incorrectness at places. For example,
the shadowed parts of the ship were lighted by an unknown (bluish) light
source, even in interplanetary space. Stars don't light that much, and
there's obviously nothing to reflect that much light to the shadowed parts.

> >   Anyways, as for being incomprehensible... Only the last 15 minutes or
> > so were incomprehensibly abstract (and, according to the director,
> > completely on purpose), but everything before that was quite clear and
> > straightforward.

> Well you do also go to a jump from radio burst on the Moon to a 18 month  
> later ship heading to Jupiter, which may make you go 'huh, what happened  
> then?'

  Such jumps are quite a common storytelling method. I didn't find it
confusing at all.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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"Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
> Ducking through doors - just make them taller. Ladders to climb up/down
> things that only allow one person at a time.

we're in 2007 -- 6 years after 2001! -- and astronauts are still crawling around
constrained, small spaces in ships and the International Station...

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And lo on Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:00:40 -0000, nemesis  
<nam### [at] gmailcom> did spake, saying:

> "Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>> Ducking through doors - just make them taller. Ladders to climb up/down
>> things that only allow one person at a time.
>
> we're in 2007 -- 6 years after 2001! -- and astronauts are still  
> crawling around constrained, small spaces in ships and the International
> Station...

So why is that?

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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"Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
> And lo on Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:00:40 -0000, nemesis
> <nam### [at] gmailcom> did spake, saying:
>
> > "Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
> >> Ducking through doors - just make them taller. Ladders to climb up/down
> >> things that only allow one person at a time.
> >
> > we're in 2007 -- 6 years after 2001! -- and astronauts are still
> > crawling around constrained, small spaces in ships and the International
> > Station...
>
> So why is that?

oh, I don't know.  Perhaps it has something to do with it costing millions to
build spaceships with thick and heavy materials and putting them in orbit?
ever heard the old adage:  "space is money"? at least from a relativist point
of view... ;)

Post a reply to this message

And lo on Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:57:37 -0000, nemesis  
<nam### [at] gmailcom> did spake, saying:

> "Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>> And lo on Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:00:40 -0000, nemesis
>> <nam### [at] gmailcom> did spake, saying:
>>
>> > "Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>> >> Ducking through doors - just make them taller. Ladders to climb  
>> up/down
>> >> things that only allow one person at a time.
>> >
>> > we're in 2007 -- 6 years after 2001! -- and astronauts are still
>> > crawling around constrained, small spaces in ships and the  
>> International
>> > Station...
>>
>> So why is that?
>
> oh, I don't know.  Perhaps it has something to do with it costing  
> millions to
> build spaceships with thick and heavy materials and putting them in  
> orbit?
> ever heard the old adage:  "space is money"? at least from a relativist  
> point
> of view... ;)

So the fact that in 2001:ASO they had a moon base that might have its own  
fabrication plant... :-)

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:54:36 +0000, Phil Cook wrote:

> And lo on Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:47:45 -0000, Jim Henderson
> <nos### [at] nospamcom> did spake, saying:
> 
>> On Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:26:40 -0800, Chambers wrote:
>>
>>> Mueen Nawaz wrote:
>>>> Chambers wrote:
>>>>> 2053 was decent when I read it (I think I was 15 at the time).  I
>>>>> couldn't stomach more than a chapter or two of 3001, however (17yo
>>>>> when I tried to read it?).
>>>>
>>>> 	I must have missed out on 2053. I read 2061...
>>>>
>>>>
>>> That was probably it (how am I supposed to remember a random number
>>> close to fifteen years later?)
>>
>> 2^2677009:1 against.
>>
>> (Name that number!)
> 
> Picking up Ford and Arthur in the ship (whose name I can't recall) in
> Hitchhiker's.... ?

Close enough; it's the odds of being picked up by a passing spaceship in 
deep space within the 30 seconds it takes to asphyxiate.

Jim

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Phil Cook wrote:
> Hmm the most likely reason to perform EVA would be to get to the engines 
> or dish so we'll put the pods at the front of the ship so they have to 
> rotate 180 degrees then move around the cockpit to get there.
> Hard points to attach the EVA pod to the ship so I don't need to float so 
> far? Nah. The ability to dock the EVA pod to the emergency door? Nah.


Except that wasn't the most likely reason to perform EVA.  The EVAs were 
to be performed at the destination to examine the environment.  The 
AE-35 unit malfunctioning was something that had a low probability of 
happening (so low, in fact, that it DIDN'T happen; HAL forced the issue).

> An easy to access emergency computer override system? Nah the 9000 series 
> is perfect which is why they had a Computer Malfunction alert on the 
> hibernation pods.

Overriding the computer was the absolute last thing anybody was 
interested in doing; Dave lobotomized HAL and had an incredibly 
difficult time keeping up with doing all the stuff that HAL handled 
automatically by himself, in the book.

> Ducking through doors - just make them taller.  Ladders
> to climb up/down things that only allow one person at a time.

Why don't they make submarines, F-15s, heck, even trains large enough 
that you can just waltz around freely?  Space is at a premium in just 
about any vehicle.  You use as little as possible.

> Put the engines well out of the way along 
> this spindly connection so they're difficult to get to and easily 
> severed from the rest of the ship. Etc., etc.

Actually that one is fairly common in SF; you're using nuclear-driven 
engines that spit out a lot of radiation and are experimental so you 
want it as far away from your crew as possible just in case it goes boom 
in more directions than the one you want.

> Well you do also go to a jump from radio burst on the Moon to a 18 month 
> later ship heading to Jupiter, which may make you go 'huh, what happened 
> then?'

According to the book, the ship was already being built; the TMA-1 
incident a) sped up the schedule and b) augmented the mission with 
additional parameters.

-- 
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.digitalartsuk.com

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PGP-(--) t* 5++>+++++ X+ R* tv+ b++(+++) DI
D++(---) G(++) e*>++ h+ !r--- !y--
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Tim Cook <z99### [at] bellsouthnet> wrote:
> Phil Cook wrote:

hey, just out of curiosity:  are you brothers?  The Cook brothers? :)

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And lo on Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:01:29 -0000, Tim Cook  
<z99### [at] bellsouthnet> did spake, saying:

> Phil Cook wrote:
>> Hmm the most likely reason to perform EVA would be to get to the  
>> engines or dish so we'll put the pods at the front of the ship so they  
>> have to rotate 180 degrees then move around the cockpit to get there.
>> Hard points to attach the EVA pod to the ship so I don't need to float  
>> so far? Nah. The ability to dock the EVA pod to the emergency door? Nah.
>
>
> Except that wasn't the most likely reason to perform EVA.  The EVAs were  
> to be performed at the destination to examine the environment.  The  
> AE-35 unit malfunctioning was something that had a low probability of  
> happening (so low, in fact, that it DIDN'T happen; HAL forced the issue).

So you have one facing forward and one backwards, 'Hey the EVA pod room's  
damaged and we can't get in, we need to use one of the EVA pods to fix the  
damage... ah"

>> An easy to access emergency computer override system? Nah the 9000  
>> series is perfect which is why they had a Computer Malfunction alert on  
>> the hibernation pods.
>
> Overriding the computer was the absolute last thing anybody was  
> interested in doing; Dave lobotomized HAL and had an incredibly  
> difficult time keeping up with doing all the stuff that HAL handled  
> automatically by himself, in the book.

In the film they ponder how to cut off HAL's higher functions while  
leaving the automatic systems running, that's the type of cut-off I was  
thinking of.

>> Ducking through doors - just make them taller.  Ladders
>> to climb up/down things that only allow one person at a time.
>
> Why don't they make submarines, F-15s, heck, even trains large enough  
> that you can just waltz around freely?  Space is at a premium in just  
> about any vehicle.  You use as little as possible.

No, it's down to weight and manoeuvrability neither of which apply to a  
spacecraft. In terms of fiction take a look at the Warhammer 40k ships
http://www.wargames.co.uk/Pending/Archive/May03/odds&sods/bfgcover.jpg

>> Put the engines well out of the way along this spindly connection so  
>> they're difficult to get to and easily severed from the rest of the  
>> ship. Etc., etc.
>
> Actually that one is fairly common in SF; you're using nuclear-driven  
> engines that spit out a lot of radiation and are experimental so you  
> want it as far away from your crew as possible just in case it goes boom  
> in more directions than the one you want.

So instead of dying in a big explosion you're simply stranded instead -  
neat.

>> Well you do also go to a jump from radio burst on the Moon to a 18  
>> month later ship heading to Jupiter, which may make you go 'huh, what  
>> happened then?'
>
> According to the book, the ship was already being built; the TMA-1  
> incident a) sped up the schedule and b) augmented the mission with  
> additional parameters.

"According to the book" and its sequels a lot more gets explained then in  
the film.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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Phil Cook wrote:
> And lo on Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:01:29 -0000, Tim Cook 
>> Why don't they make submarines, F-15s, heck, even trains large enough 
>> that you can just waltz around freely?  Space is at a premium in just 
>> about any vehicle.  You use as little as possible.
> 
> No, it's down to weight and manoeuvrability neither of which apply to a 
> spacecraft. In terms of fiction take a look at the Warhammer 40k ships
> http://www.wargames.co.uk/Pending/Archive/May03/odds&sods/bfgcover.jpg

Air resistance might not apply, but manueverability does.  Applying a 
force to different parts of the ship will stress different sections in 
different ways.  That's a whole lot of differences there!

Besides which, weight is out, but mass is in.  So smaller is still better.

-- 
...Ben Chambers
www.pacificwebguy.com

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And lo on Wed, 16 Jan 2008 02:49:42 -0000, Chambers  
<ben### [at] pacificwebguycom> did spake, saying:

> Phil Cook wrote:
>> And lo on Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:01:29 -0000, Tim Cook
>>> Why don't they make submarines, F-15s, heck, even trains large enough  
>>> that you can just waltz around freely?  Space is at a premium in just  
>>> about any vehicle.  You use as little as possible.
>>  No, it's down to weight and manoeuvrability neither of which apply to  
>> a spacecraft. In terms of fiction take a look at the Warhammer 40k ships
>> http://www.wargames.co.uk/Pending/Archive/May03/odds&sods/bfgcover.jpg
>
> Air resistance might not apply, but manueverability does.  Applying a  
> force to different parts of the ship will stress different sections in  
> different ways.  That's a whole lot of differences there!

Yes except what might be deemed 'travel' ships shouldn't be engaged in  
high stress producing maneuvers; those are reserved for the  
fighters/escorts/shuttles, which I agree need to be smaller.

> Besides which, weight is out, but mass is in.  So smaller is still  
> better.

No because a) although you need more oomph to get the ship moving/stopping  
that's a one-off cost and b) volume doesn't directly equal mass; if I  
increase the height of a room the only mass increase is in the walls and  
'air'.

Create a 7 unit cubic room with walls massing 1kg per square unit (all the  
same thickness). You're pumping it full of a gas that masses 0.1kg per  
cubic unit. So the mass of the initial room is 328.3kg. Now increase the  
height of the room by 1 unit and you get 361.2kg a ~10% increase in mass  
for a ~14% gain in volume. Make it all 8*8*8 and you get a ~49% volume  
increase for a ~32% mass increase.

Not that I'm saying 'Hey why not make all the rooms 300ft square' at some  
point you hit overkill, what I am saying is make the rooms the size they  
need to be for everyone to use them comfortably. So no ducking through  
doors or having a shared up/down ladder. It serves no purpose other then  
being able to use those surplus navy submarine doors.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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Phil Cook wrote:
> And lo on Wed, 16 Jan 2008 02:49:42 -0000, Chambers 
> <ben### [at] pacificwebguycom> did spake, saying:
>> Air resistance might not apply, but manueverability does.  Applying a 
>> force to different parts of the ship will stress different sections in 
>> different ways.  That's a whole lot of differences there!
> 
> Yes except what might be deemed 'travel' ships shouldn't be engaged in 
> high stress producing maneuvers; those are reserved for the 
> fighters/escorts/shuttles, which I agree need to be smaller.
> 
>> Besides which, weight is out, but mass is in.  So smaller is still 
>> better.
> 
> No because a) although you need more oomph to get the ship 
> moving/stopping that's a one-off cost

It's a four-off cost.
1) Cost of materials to build a larger room
2) More fuel needed to accelerate the additional mass
3) More fuel needed to decelerate (brake)
4) More fuel needed to carry the additional fuel for 2) and 3) above.

> and b) volume doesn't directly 
> equal mass; if I increase the height of a room the only mass increase is 
> in the walls and 'air'.

While volume != mass, as your rooms grow in volume, the mass needed to 
enclose them also grows.  It's not a linear relationship, but it is there.

> Create a 7 unit cubic room with walls massing 1kg per square unit (all 
> the same thickness). You're pumping it full of a gas that masses 0.1kg 
> per cubic unit. So the mass of the initial room is 328.3kg. Now increase 
> the height of the room by 1 unit and you get 361.2kg a ~10% increase in 
> mass for a ~14% gain in volume. Make it all 8*8*8 and you get a ~49% 
> volume increase for a ~32% mass increase.

But what is that 32% mass increase is not feasible?  What if an 
additional 10% isn't feasible?  This is a government funded project, 
remember, and their budget is spread over many things - not just the rec 
room for the astronauts.

> Not that I'm saying 'Hey why not make all the rooms 300ft square' at 
> some point you hit overkill, what I am saying is make the rooms the size 
> they need to be for everyone to use them comfortably. So no ducking 

And the point was that it's not reasonable to just make it as big as you 
want; due to the (assumed) constraints, this is the ship that was 
created.  A bit cramped, yes, but it gets the job done.

-- 
...Ben Chambers
www.pacificwebguy.com

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And lo on Thu, 17 Jan 2008 04:35:39 -0000, Chambers  

<ben### [at] pacificwebguycom> did spake, saying:

> Phil Cook wrote:
>> And lo on Wed, 16 Jan 2008 02:49:42 -0000, Chambers  

>> <ben### [at] pacificwebguycom> did spake, saying:
>>> Air resistance might not apply, but manueverability does.  Applying 
a  

>>> force to different parts of the ship will stress different sections 
in  

>>> different ways.  That's a whole lot of differences there!
>>  Yes except what might be deemed 'travel' ships shouldn't be engaged 
in  

>> high stress producing maneuvers; those are reserved for the  

>> fighters/escorts/shuttles, which I agree need to be smaller.
>>
>>> Besides which, weight is out, but mass is in.  So smaller is still  

>>> better.
>>  No because a) although you need more oomph to get the ship  

>> moving/stopping that's a one-off cost
>
> It's a four-off cost.
> 1) Cost of materials to build a larger room

But like mass/volume the cost is not necessarily proportional to the vol
ume

> 2) More fuel needed to accelerate the additional mass
> 3) More fuel needed to decelerate (brake)
> 4) More fuel needed to carry the additional fuel for 2) and 3) above.

Except by default the mass of the fuel has to be less then the mass that
  

fuel can move and as I've already shown mass and volume are not  

proportionate.

>> and b) volume doesn't directly equal mass; if I increase the height o
f  

>> a room the only mass increase is in the walls and 'air'.
>
> While volume != mass, as your rooms grow in volume, the mass needed 
to  

> enclose them also grows.

No not really if you break it down to the simplest situation which is ju
st  

the one room, simply expand the room and section it. Okay the external  

walls may be thicker then the internal ones, but the principal stilll  

holds.

> It's not a linear relationship, but it is there.
>
>> Create a 7 unit cubic room with walls massing 1kg per square unit (al
l  

>> the same thickness). You're pumping it full of a gas that masses 0.1k
g  

>> per cubic unit. So the mass of the initial room is 328.3kg. Now  

>> increase the height of the room by 1 unit and you get 361.2kg a ~10% 
 

>> increase in mass for a ~14% gain in volume. Make it all 8*8*8 and you
  

>> get a ~49% volume increase for a ~32% mass increase.
>
> But what is that 32% mass increase is not feasible?  What if an  

> additional 10% isn't feasible?  This is a government funded project,  

> remember, and their budget is spread over many things - not just the r
ec  

> room for the astronauts.

No you're conflating feasible with cost, the budget that has been set is
  

simply someone's guess. If you look at almost any government project fin
al  

cost is always greater then initial budget, yet amazingly they've manage
d  

to locate the additional funds.

Now if you were saying "But we need to make these on Earth then transpor
t  

them up into space" then I'd agree that volume and mass are important.  

Before anyone mentions raw materials we're discussing 2001:ASO and if  

they're sending a manned spacehip out to Jupiter I'm betting they're  

mining asteroids.

>> Not that I'm saying 'Hey why not make all the rooms 300ft square' at 
 

>> some point you hit overkill, what I am saying is make the rooms the  

>> size they need to be for everyone to use them comfortably. So no duck
ing
>
> And the point was that it's not reasonable to just make it as big as y
ou  

> want; due to the (assumed) constraints, this is the ship that was  

> created.  A bit cramped, yes, but it gets the job done.

Except what I'm saying is there was no need for it to be "a bit cramped"
  

at all. Having a 300ft square bedroom is overkill, having a 7.5 cube  

instead of a 7 cube isn't.

-- 

Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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Phil Cook nous apporta ses lumieres en ce 2008/01/16 09:28:

> Not that I'm saying 'Hey why not make all the rooms 300ft square' at 
> some point you hit overkill, what I am saying is make the rooms the size 
> they need to be for everyone to use them comfortably. So no ducking 
> through doors or having a shared up/down ladder. It serves no purpose 
> other then being able to use those surplus navy submarine doors.
> 
The small doors do have a purpose: They need to be airtight when closed.
In that case, the key factor is the length of the perimeter. You need it to be 
as short as possible, while still be usable as a door. Surface is also a big 
factor if you may, even remotely, need to close it toward the high presure area.

-- 
Alain
-------------------------------------------------
WARNING: The consumption of alcohol may lead you to think people are laughing 
WITH you.

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Phil Cook wrote:
> No you're conflating feasible with cost, the budget that has been set is 
> simply someone's guess. If you look at almost any government project 
> final cost is always greater then initial budget, yet amazingly they've 
> managed to locate the additional funds.

Only when nobody stops you from using guns or fiat money to get 
additional funds. Lots of state-level programs fail in the US for lack 
of budgetted funds.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     It's not feature creep if you put it
     at the end and adjust the release date.

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Phil Cook wrote:
> And lo on Thu, 17 Jan 2008 04:35:39 -0000, Chambers 
> <ben### [at] pacificwebguycom> did spake, saying:
>> While volume != mass, as your rooms grow in volume, the mass needed to 
>> enclose them also grows.
> 
> No not really if you break it down to the simplest situation which is 
> just the one room, simply expand the room and section it. Okay the 
> external walls may be thicker then the internal ones, but the principal 
> stilll holds.

?

This is like saying, "You're right, but you're still wrong." :)

Tim said, "Space is at a premium in just about any vehicle.  You use as 
little as possible. "

My reasoning is that addition volume means additional materials to 
enclose it, and additional fuel needed to propel it.  I never stated 
that the relationship between volume and mass was a linear one.  In fact...

>> It's not a linear relationship, but it is there.

In other words, volume and mass are related (the relationship is there), 
but not in a linear way (it's not a linear relationship).

>>> Create a 7 unit cubic room with walls massing 1kg per square unit 
>>> (all the same thickness). You're pumping it full of a gas that masses 
>>> 0.1kg per cubic unit. So the mass of the initial room is 328.3kg. Now 
>>> increase the height of the room by 1 unit and you get 361.2kg a ~10% 
>>> increase in mass for a ~14% gain in volume. Make it all 8*8*8 and you 
>>> get a ~49% volume increase for a ~32% mass increase.
>>
>> But what is that 32% mass increase is not feasible?  What if an 
>> additional 10% isn't feasible?  This is a government funded project, 
>> remember, and their budget is spread over many things - not just the 
>> rec room for the astronauts.
> 
> No you're conflating feasible with cost, the budget that has been set is 

No, I'm saying "What if".  The point is, you blithely point out that 
additional materials are needed, and then say that the additional cost 
doesn't matter, while I say that the additional cost may make a difference.

> Except what I'm saying is there was no need for it to be "a bit cramped" 
> at all. Having a 300ft square bedroom is overkill, having a 7.5 cube 
> instead of a 7 cube isn't.

But this room isn't the only one in the spaceship; that extra .5 cube 
(?) needs to come from somewhere.

Assuming that the outer hull of the ship is fixed, and cannot be 
enlarged, then it means you have to take .5 cube from another room.

Assuming that the outer hull of the ship CAN be enlarged, then we don't 
need to change the size of the rooms, but we do need additional materials.

Anyway, the point is that making things bigger has a cost.  It's naive 
to say simply, "They should have made that bigger," without at least 
examining the costs.

-- 
...Ben Chambers
www.pacificwebguy.com

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And lo on Fri, 18 Jan 2008 03:00:21 -0000, Chambers  
<ben### [at] pacificwebguycom> did spake, saying:

> Phil Cook wrote:
>> And lo on Thu, 17 Jan 2008 04:35:39 -0000, Chambers  
>> <ben### [at] pacificwebguycom> did spake, saying:
>>> While volume != mass, as your rooms grow in volume, the mass needed to  
>>> enclose them also grows.
>>  No not really if you break it down to the simplest situation which is  
>> just the one room, simply expand the room and section it. Okay the  
>> external walls may be thicker then the internal ones, but the principal  
>> stilll holds.
>
> ?
>
> This is like saying, "You're right, but you're still wrong." :)

Yup :-)

> Tim said, "Space is at a premium in just about any vehicle.  You use as  
> little as possible. "
>
> My reasoning is that addition volume means additional materials to  
> enclose it, and additional fuel needed to propel it.  I never stated  
> that the relationship between volume and mass was a linear one.  In  
> fact...
>
>>> It's not a linear relationship, but it is there.
>
> In other words, volume and mass are related (the relationship is there),  
> but not in a linear way (it's not a linear relationship).

Which I first pointed out and subsequently kept agreeing with.

>>>> Create a 7 unit cubic room with walls massing 1kg per square unit  
>>>> (all the same thickness). You're pumping it full of a gas that masses  
>>>> 0.1kg per cubic unit. So the mass of the initial room is 328.3kg. Now  
>>>> increase the height of the room by 1 unit and you get 361.2kg a ~10%  
>>>> increase in mass for a ~14% gain in volume. Make it all 8*8*8 and you  
>>>> get a ~49% volume increase for a ~32% mass increase.
>>>
>>> But what is that 32% mass increase is not feasible?  What if an  
>>> additional 10% isn't feasible?  This is a government funded project,  
>>> remember, and their budget is spread over many things - not just the  
>>> rec room for the astronauts.
>>  No you're conflating feasible with cost, the budget that has been set  
>> is
>
> No, I'm saying "What if".  The point is, you blithely point out that  
> additional materials are needed, and then say that the additional cost  
> doesn't matter, while I say that the additional cost may make a  
> difference.

But the start of this conversation was about the Jupiter mission in  
2001:ASO. A society with a space base and moon bases. So the money is  
there I didn't see them ducking through doors on the moon base so Alain's  
perimeter argument seems only to apply to ships and not stationery objects.

>> Except what I'm saying is there was no need for it to be "a bit  
>> cramped" at all. Having a 300ft square bedroom is overkill, having a  
>> 7.5 cube instead of a 7 cube isn't.
>
> But this room isn't the only one in the spaceship; that extra .5 cube  
> (?) needs to come from somewhere.
>
> Assuming that the outer hull of the ship is fixed, and cannot be  
> enlarged, then it means you have to take .5 cube from another room.
>
> Assuming that the outer hull of the ship CAN be enlarged, then we don't  
> need to change the size of the rooms, but we do need additional  
> materials.
>
> Anyway, the point is that making things bigger has a cost.  It's naive  
> to say simply, "They should have made that bigger," without at least  
> examining the costs.

And again you're correct in the same way I say a 300 ft room is overkill.  
If you've budgeted £100bn for this ship and the cost to enlarge it is an  
extra £1bn that's peanuts compared to the original budget.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> 2^2677009:1 against.
>>>
>>> (Name that number!)
>> Picking up Ford and Arthur in the ship (whose name I can't recall) in
>> Hitchhiker's.... ?
> 
> Close enough; it's the odds of being picked up by a passing spaceship in 
> deep space within the 30 seconds it takes to asphyxiate.

Surely that's an Islington phone number ? ;-)

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On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:19:42 +0000, Bill Pragnell wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>> 2^2677009:1 against.
>>>>
>>>> (Name that number!)
>>> Picking up Ford and Arthur in the ship (whose name I can't recall) in
>>> Hitchhiker's.... ?
>> 
>> Close enough; it's the odds of being picked up by a passing spaceship
>> in deep space within the 30 seconds it takes to asphyxiate.
> 
> Surely that's an Islington phone number ? ;-)

It is also that, except for in the film, where the odds were changed for 
some bizzare reason.

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:19:42 +0000, Bill Pragnell wrote:
> 
>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>>> 2^2677009:1 against.
>>>>>
>>>>> (Name that number!)
>>>> Picking up Ford and Arthur in the ship (whose name I can't recall) in
>>>> Hitchhiker's.... ?
>>> Close enough; it's the odds of being picked up by a passing spaceship
>>> in deep space within the 30 seconds it takes to asphyxiate.
>> Surely that's an Islington phone number ? ;-)
> 
> It is also that, except for in the film, where the odds were changed for 
> some bizzare reason.

Not bizarre; the area codes in London have changed several times since 
1979 and the numbers were altered to produce a plausible London phone 
number.

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On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:24:06 +0000, Bill Pragnell wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:19:42 +0000, Bill Pragnell wrote:
>> 
>>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>>>> 2^2677009:1 against.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Name that number!)
>>>>> Picking up Ford and Arthur in the ship (whose name I can't recall)
>>>>> in Hitchhiker's.... ?
>>>> Close enough; it's the odds of being picked up by a passing spaceship
>>>> in deep space within the 30 seconds it takes to asphyxiate.
>>> Surely that's an Islington phone number ? ;-)
>> 
>> It is also that, except for in the film, where the odds were changed
>> for some bizzare reason.
> 
> Not bizarre; the area codes in London have changed several times since
> 1979 and the numbers were altered to produce a plausible London phone
> number.

Sure, that would make sense, except that the odds as given are somewhat 
iconic - there are certain details about H2G2 that shouldn't change IMHO; 
that's one of them.  Other things, like the addition of entire new 
scenes, however, is part of the H2G2 "culture".

Jim

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