I've done a lot of tourist-y travelling. Granted, it's been to touristy
places, but it includes NY City subway stations and a lot of places which
seemed to have included a wide slice of the American demographic. I didn't
think I needed to "get out more."

Anyway, we're driving down the eastern seaboard, and stop in Dover,
Delaware, at a pizza restaurant that is on an eight-lane highway full of
stoplights, in an ugly place with about a mile of concrete for shopping
malls on either side of the road.  While we were eating, I was notably
upset at the babies crying. It sounded like the plaintive wails of
neglected children, about 3 in the place. I was spooked or creeped out
after a while and still am when I think about it.

My wife wondered if it were merely my prejudice at those from a lower
socioeconomic status. Maybe so, but I thought I'd been around, and just
exactly how poor can you be and still take your family out to eat?  Our son
is far from perfect in sociability or manners, but he KNOWS how to behave
in a restaurant. Since he was 18 months we'd gotten compliments on his
behavior.  Partly due to pure empathy and letting him know there are things
we have zero tolerance for. 

So, is babies-wailing a cultural thing?  If you go to restaurants in
different corners of Europe or Asia (or the world), is wailing the norm in
some parts?  Or does it take a lot of disposable income & time to keep
snacks and toys ready for a kid the moment he peeps?   Or can there be
geographic concentrations of actual indifference to babies' well-being?

Post a reply to this message

Greg M. Johnson wrote:
> I've done a lot of tourist-y travelling. Granted, it's been to touristy
> places, but it includes NY City subway stations and a lot of places which
> seemed to have included a wide slice of the American demographic. I didn't
> think I needed to "get out more."
> 
> Anyway, we're driving down the eastern seaboard, and stop in Dover,
> Delaware, at a pizza restaurant that is on an eight-lane highway full of
> stoplights, in an ugly place with about a mile of concrete for shopping
> malls on either side of the road.  While we were eating, I was notably
> upset at the babies crying. It sounded like the plaintive wails of
> neglected children, about 3 in the place. I was spooked or creeped out
> after a while and still am when I think about it.
> 
> My wife wondered if it were merely my prejudice at those from a lower
> socioeconomic status. Maybe so, but I thought I'd been around, and just
> exactly how poor can you be and still take your family out to eat?  Our son
> is far from perfect in sociability or manners, but he KNOWS how to behave
> in a restaurant. Since he was 18 months we'd gotten compliments on his
> behavior.  Partly due to pure empathy and letting him know there are things
> we have zero tolerance for. 
> 
> So, is babies-wailing a cultural thing?  If you go to restaurants in
> different corners of Europe or Asia (or the world), is wailing the norm in
> some parts?  Or does it take a lot of disposable income & time to keep
> snacks and toys ready for a kid the moment he peeps?   Or can there be
> geographic concentrations of actual indifference to babies' well-being?
> 
> 
I am not an expert (no kids myself and only one grandson), but I thought 
it is mainly a personality question. Some kids do and some kids don't. A 
bit of training might help a bit in one direction or the other, but 
below a certain age you can not train. I know of families where only one 
baby cried a lot and the others were mostly silent and adult friendly. 
AFAIK nobody knows why some kids wail all the time, it seems unrelated 
to well-being and comfort. I guess you were lucky and so was I (most of 
the time).

Post a reply to this message

andrel <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
> I am not an expert (no kids myself and only one grandson)

  I have hard time figuring out how that is even possible...

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:
> andrel <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
>> I am not an expert (no kids myself and only one grandson)
> 
>   I have hard time figuring out how that is even possible...

*blinks*

lol

-- 
Tim Cook
http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-empyrean

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GFA dpu- s: a?-- C++(++++) U P? L E--- W++(+++)>$
N++ o? K- w(+) O? M-(--) V? PS+(+++) PE(--) Y(--)
PGP-(--) t* 5++>+++++ X+ R* tv+ b++(+++) DI
D++(---) G(++) e*>++ h+ !r--- !y--
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Post a reply to this message

Greg M. Johnson wrote:
>...at a pizza restaurant that is on an eight-lane highway full of
> stoplights, in an ugly place with about a mile of concrete for shopping
> malls on either side of the road...

Babies have much more sensitive hearing than adults.  I'd be inclined to 
wonder if they were picking up on obnoxious sounds that you or I might 
not be able to hear.  And don't forget that one crying baby can trigger 
every baby for miles around to join in.

I would also expect there to be considerable randomness in the number of 
babies in the restaurant on that particular day, the personalities of 
the babies present, ambient temperature, time of day, noise levels, air 
quality--all the many things that can get a baby's attention in a 
negative way.

--Sherry Shaw


-- 
#macro T(E,N)sphere{x,.4rotate z*E*60translate y*N pigment{wrinkles scale
.3}finish{ambient 1}}#end#local I=0;#while(I<5)T(I,1)T(1-I,-1)#local I=I+
1;#end camera{location-5*z}plane{z,37 pigment{granite color_map{[.7rgb 0]
[1rgb 1]}}finish{ambient 2}}//                                   TenMoons

Post a reply to this message

Greg M. Johnson wrote:
> It sounded like the plaintive wails of
> neglected children, about 3 in the place.

I had a similar experience once, and after about 3 minutes the thought 
"gas arrow" went thru my head.  At that point, I knew I'd been playing 
Thief too much.

Incidentally, in the US, it's often cheaper to eat out at an inexpensive 
restaurant (like pizza of McD) than to buy fresh food to prepare at 
home. That's why poor people get fat here.

> geographic concentrations of actual indifference to babies' well-being?

I don't know that a wailing baby is suffering from lack of well-being, 
let alone indifference from the parents.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     It's not feature creep if you put it
     at the end and adjust the release date.

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 06:39:36 -0500, Warp wrote:

> andrel <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
>> I am not an expert (no kids myself and only one grandson)
> 
>   I have hard time figuring out how that is even possible...

Stepkids.

I have a stepson, no kids of my own, though.  Over the years, I've been 
more of a father than his biological father (who has finally started 
taking an interest again - now that Ken's 20 and he's off the hook 
financially for child support etc), but when Ken has a child, that child 
will likely identify me as their grandparent, even though biologically 
it's not the case.

That's the only way I can work it out for Andrel.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 10:24:07 -0800, Darren New wrote:

> Incidentally, in the US, it's often cheaper to eat out at an inexpensive
> restaurant (like pizza of McD) than to buy fresh food to prepare at
> home. That's why poor people get fat here.

I don't know about cheaper, but easier it certainly is.  Especially with 
a bunch of kids that need to be fed.

I've noticed the disparity between the cost of healthy food and the cost 
of "junk" food and have commented on it to friends/family around here; 
$0.75 for a Coke vs. $1.50 or $2.25 for a bottle of orange juice, that 
sort of thing.

But we've done a little analysis on our own menu (as we used to eat out 
several times a week) and have found, for example, that going out and 
having chicken fettuccine is much more expensive than making it at home.

4 portions of the above made at home costs us about $4.  Getting it while 
eating out costs nearly $35.

Similarly, if we were to make 1/4 lb hamburgers at home, the cost works 
out to about $1.25 using organic beef.  If we got lower quality beef, we 
would be sub-$1.  The disparity in cost isn't as large as something like 
the chicken pasta.

It does, of course, help to have equipment to make the food in, and as a 
throwaway society, we tend to spend more on the equipment than we should 
(because we have to buy it several times).  So equipment costs aren't 
factored into those costs.

But the number of times I've made homemade fettuccine, the cost of the 
pasta roller/cutter (and the Kitchen Aid mixer it attaches to) is down to 
pennies per serving.  But having been near bankruptcy myself years ago, I 
know that paying the bills and buying equipment to make good inexpensive 
food is nearly impossible.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

"Sherry Shaw" <ten### [at] aolcom> wrote in message 
news:475c269f@news.povray.org...

> Babies have much more sensitive hearing than adults.  I'd be inclined to 
> wonder if they were picking up on obnoxious sounds that you or I might not 
> be able to hear.


   Yeah, it's the damn kid in the corner with a dog whistle...


     ~Steve~   ;)





> --Sherry Shaw
>
>
> -- 
> #macro T(E,N)sphere{x,.4rotate z*E*60translate y*N pigment{wrinkles scale
> .3}finish{ambient 1}}#end#local I=0;#while(I<5)T(I,1)T(1-I,-1)#local I=I+
> 1;#end camera{location-5*z}plane{z,37 pigment{granite color_map{[.7rgb 0]
> [1rgb 1]}}finish{ambient 2}}//                                   TenMoons

Post a reply to this message

"Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote in message 
news:475c3e4d@news.povray.org...


    Ham...bur...gers...

    Want... three...

    or 4...



> Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 21:10:59 +0000, St. wrote:

>     Ham...bur...gers...
> 
>     Want... three...
> 
>     or 4...

We were going to make some last night, but it got to be too late to get 
started...

Which reminds me, if I'm going to make bread today (first attempt ever), 
I'd better get started... :-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

"Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote in message 
news:475c6347@news.povray.org...
> On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 21:10:59 +0000, St. wrote:
>
>>     Ham...bur...gers...
>>
>>     Want... three...
>>
>>     or 4...
>
> We were going to make some last night, but it got to be too late to get
> started...

     It reminds me of when I was kid and we 'always' called them hamburgers. 
Now you never hear it, it's always 'beefburgers' here.


>
> Which reminds me, if I'm going to make bread today (first attempt ever),
> I'd better get started... :-)

    Mmmm... the smell of fresh-baked bread is to die for... The same as 
fresh cut grass, (for me anyway).

     Good luck and enjoy!  :o)

      ~Steve~



>
> Jim

Post a reply to this message

some babies and children just enjoy crying.  I see no other possible explanation
for it.  It doesn't matter how much love, tenderness, attention, dialoguing,
appeals to reasoning or toys I give to my daughter:  when it's cry time, it's
cry time.  and no, it's no known medical condition...

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 21:59:36 +0000, St. wrote:

> "Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote in message
> news:475c6347@news.povray.org...
>> On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 21:10:59 +0000, St. wrote:
>>
>>>     Ham...bur...gers...
>>>
>>>     Want... three...
>>>
>>>     or 4...
>>
>> We were going to make some last night, but it got to be too late to get
>> started...
> 
>      It reminds me of when I was kid and we 'always' called them
>      hamburgers.
> Now you never hear it, it's always 'beefburgers' here.

LOL, ain't that the truth.  Ours are made with red onion and dijon 
mustard.  And they're not 1/4 pound, either, they're more like half-pound 
(more like meatloaf on a bun as well).

Now I'm getting hungry.

>> Which reminds me, if I'm going to make bread today (first attempt
>> ever), I'd better get started... :-)
> 
>     Mmmm... the smell of fresh-baked bread is to die for... The same as
> fresh cut grass, (for me anyway).
> 
>      Good luck and enjoy!  :o)

Here's hoping. -)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 17:13:51 -0500, nemesis wrote:

> some babies and children just enjoy crying.  I see no other possible
> explanation for it.  It doesn't matter how much love, tenderness,
> attention, dialoguing, appeals to reasoning or toys I give to my
> daughter:  when it's cry time, it's cry time.  and no, it's no known
> medical condition...

There's *always* a reason; crying is a means of communication.  Babies 
just don't know how to communicate what's wrong in a way that we can 
understand (yet).

My wife's approach was to treat Ken (when he was a baby) like an alien - 
he knew what he needed or wanted, but couldn't tell her.

That was a key part of his survival; he had colic as a baby, which meant 
that he spent a lot of time crying for no apparent reason.

Just because there isn't a known medical condition for it today doesn't 
mean that there is no reason for it.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 06:39:36 -0500, Warp wrote:
> 
>> andrel <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
>>> I am not an expert (no kids myself and only one grandson)
>>   I have hard time figuring out how that is even possible...
> 
> Stepkids.
> 
> I have a stepson, no kids of my own, though.  Over the years, I've been 
> more of a father than his biological father (who has finally started 
> taking an interest again - now that Ken's 20 and he's off the hook 
> financially for child support etc), but when Ken has a child, that child 
> will likely identify me as their grandparent, even though biologically 
> it's not the case.
> 
> That's the only way I can work it out for Andrel.
> 
Correct. I though I told that story already a couple of times. Either 
that made me not repeat it again or the fact that it has become 
completely normal to me, so I don't notice anymore it is somewhat 
strange. In my case we still have a reasonable relation with the father 
of my daughter. I met her when she was about 18 or so, so I did not see 
her growing up. My grandson is now 4 years old, and stays one or more 
days a week with us. He is my first experience with growing up children.

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 06:39:36 -0500, Warp wrote:

> > andrel <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
> >> I am not an expert (no kids myself and only one grandson)
> > 
> >   I have hard time figuring out how that is even possible...

> Stepkids.

  Hmm, I still find it a bit paradoxical to say "I have no son/daughter,
but I have a grandson".

  Is the son of a stepchild considered more familial than the stepchild?-)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

St. wrote:
> "Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote in message 
> 
>> Which reminds me, if I'm going to make bread today (first attempt ever),
>> I'd better get started... :-)
> 
>     Mmmm... the smell of fresh-baked bread is to die for... The same as 
> fresh cut grass, (for me anyway).

Do you have some cow in your ancestry?

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 23:44:27 +0100, andrel wrote:

> Correct. I though I told that story already a couple of times. Either
> that made me not repeat it again or the fact that it has become
> completely normal to me, so I don't notice anymore it is somewhat
> strange. In my case we still have a reasonable relation with the father
> of my daughter. I met her when she was about 18 or so, so I did not see
> her growing up. My grandson is now 4 years old, and stays one or more
> days a week with us. He is my first experience with growing up children.

In fact, I think I remember you and I talking about it before because in 
that regard, our situation is somewhat similar. :-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:
> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 06:39:36 -0500, Warp wrote:
> 
>>> andrel <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
>>>> I am not an expert (no kids myself and only one grandson)
>>>   I have hard time figuring out how that is even possible...
> 
>> Stepkids.
> 
>   Hmm, I still find it a bit paradoxical to say "I have no son/daughter,
> but I have a grandson".
> 
>   Is the son of a stepchild considered more familial than the stepchild?-)
> 
Depends on the age of the stepchild, I guess. If you raise it from a 
very early stage it feels like your own kid. If, like me, you first meet 
it when it more or less already left home and started an independent 
life, you don't develop a parent/child relation. OTOH I have seen Younes 
grow up, so we do have a grandfather/grandchild relation.

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 18:01:52 -0500, Warp wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 06:39:36 -0500, Warp wrote:
> 
>> > andrel <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
>> >> I am not an expert (no kids myself and only one grandson)
>> > 
>> >   I have hard time figuring out how that is even possible...
> 
>> Stepkids.
> 
>   Hmm, I still find it a bit paradoxical to say "I have no son/daughter,
> but I have a grandson".

Perhaps from a logical standpoint, but since when are kids logical? ;-)

>   Is the son of a stepchild considered more familial than the
>   stepchild?-)

As a stepparent myself, I can understand what Andrel is saying - because 
my experience was with Ken from the age of 9 (and for Andrel, his 
stepdaughter from the age of 18), we missed out on raising a child from 
an infant.  So there are experiences for us as stepparents that are new 
with a grandchild that aren't for parents who raise a child from infancy.

For my own experience, I told Ken from the very start that I did not see 
my role as one of replacing his father.  The fact that it has turned out 
that way in many respects was not by my design, but rather from his 
father's apparent lack of interest in being involved in Ken's life until 
just recently (it's perhaps cynical of me to say 'now that he's 
financially off the hook', but I find it an interesting coincidence if 
that wasn't by *his* design, especially given that he quit jobs so he 
could get out of paying child support).

Ken coined the term "Assistant Dad" to describe me when he was about 10.  
He calls me "Jim" instead of "Dad", which I'm perfectly fine with; but 
when he has kids, I imagine he'll talk to his kids about me as "Grandpa 
Jim", just as he referred to my father as "Grandpa Ole".

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 00:04:12 +0100, andrel wrote:

> St. wrote:
>> "Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote in message
>> 
>>> Which reminds me, if I'm going to make bread today (first attempt
>>> ever), I'd better get started... :-)
>> 
>>     Mmmm... the smell of fresh-baked bread is to die for... The same as
>> fresh cut grass, (for me anyway).
> 
> Do you have some cow in your ancestry?

LALOL!  I guess I must as well, because I really like both of those 
smells, too. :-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 21:59:36 +0000, St. wrote:
> 
>> "Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote in message
>> news:475c6347@news.povray.org...
>>> On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 21:10:59 +0000, St. wrote:
>>>
>>>>     Ham...bur...gers...
>>>>
>>>>     Want... three...
>>>>
>>>>     or 4...
>>> We were going to make some last night, but it got to be too late to get
>>> started...
>>      It reminds me of when I was kid and we 'always' called them
>>      hamburgers.
>> Now you never hear it, it's always 'beefburgers' here.
> 
> LOL, ain't that the truth.  Ours are made with red onion and dijon 
> mustard.  And they're not 1/4 pound, either, they're more like half-pound 
> (more like meatloaf on a bun as well).
> 
> Now I'm getting hungry.
> 

You guys are making me hungry, and I haven't even really woken up. Time
to fire up the stove, carrot soup seems right for this weather.

>>> Which reminds me, if I'm going to make bread today (first attempt
>>> ever), I'd better get started... :-)
>>     Mmmm... the smell of fresh-baked bread is to die for... The same as
>> fresh cut grass, (for me anyway).

Fresh cut grass? Okay, that might have just ruined my appetite.

Post a reply to this message

Greg M. Johnson wrote:
> So, is babies-wailing a cultural thing?  If you go to restaurants in
> different corners of Europe or Asia (or the world), is wailing the norm in
> some parts?  Or does it take a lot of disposable income & time to keep
> snacks and toys ready for a kid the moment he peeps?   Or can there be
> geographic concentrations of actual indifference to babies' well-being?

Babies getting fussy doesn't bother me as much as the way the parents
handle it. If I see that they take a bit of time, and try to figure out
why the kid is upset, then a noisy baby doesn't bother me. The things
that really ruin a day out is when the parents just talk louder and
ignore the kid, or get the restaurant to turn up the TV or music.

I think, having grown up in rural areas, that a noisy baby is more
disturbing or distressing when at a nice quiet restaurant than at a
local pizza dive. In a small town, a baby sitter can cost as much or
more then a short dinner. And, having been part of the loud college
crowd at our local pizza joint, I think we were more annoying then any
loud baby ever could have been.

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 18:55:21 -0500, Sabrina Kilian wrote:

> You guys are making me hungry, and I haven't even really woken up. Time
> to fire up the stove, carrot soup seems right for this weather.

Mmmmm, now there's something I haven't had in a while.

>>> fresh cut grass, (for me anyway).
> 
> Fresh cut grass? Okay, that might have just ruined my appetite.

LOL!  I think fresh cut grass is enhanced by the smell of a recent 
rainshower (or perhaps it's the other way around).

Jim

Post a reply to this message

St. wrote:
>      It reminds me of when I was kid and we 'always' called them hamburgers. 
> Now you never hear it, it's always 'beefburgers' here.

Wow. I've never heard that. At most, it's "all-beef hamburgers" if 
someone's trying to make a point.

>     Mmmm... the smell of fresh-baked bread is to die for... The same as 
> fresh cut grass, (for me anyway).

My allergies are bad enough I *want* to die after cutting the grass, yes.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     It's not feature creep if you put it
     at the end and adjust the release date.

Post a reply to this message

> So, is babies-wailing a cultural thing?  If you go to restaurants in
> different corners of Europe or Asia (or the world), is wailing the norm in
> some parts?  Or does it take a lot of disposable income & time to keep
> snacks and toys ready for a kid the moment he peeps?   Or can there be
> geographic concentrations of actual indifference to babies' well-being?

Depends on the standard of "restaurant".  Places like McD's know that if 
they banned screaming kids they wouldn't make any money.  More expensive 
places know that if they didn't ban screaming kids (or at least make it 
clear they are not welcome) they wouldn't make any money...

Post a reply to this message

"Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote in message 
news:475c3e4d@news.povray.org...
> On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 10:24:07 -0800, Darren New wrote:
>
>> Incidentally, in the US, it's often cheaper to eat out at an inexpensive
>> restaurant (like pizza of McD) than to buy fresh food to prepare at
>> home. That's why poor people get fat here.
>
> I don't know about cheaper, but easier it certainly is.  Especially with
> a bunch of kids that need to be fed.

Cheaper. Subsidized corn makes up the most used ingredient in everything on 
the menu at a place like McDonalds. From the filler in the meat (and what do 
they feed the meet factories? corn... they feed corn to an animal that is 
specialized to eat grassy greens. wtf), to the breading around the meat, the 
buns, french fries (what potatos?), beverage and salad dressing.

Post a reply to this message

Ross <rli### [at] speakeasynet> wrote:
> "Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote in message 
> news:475c3e4d@news.povray.org...
> > On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 10:24:07 -0800, Darren New wrote:
> >
> >> Incidentally, in the US, it's often cheaper to eat out at an inexpensive
> >> restaurant (like pizza of McD) than to buy fresh food to prepare at
> >> home. That's why poor people get fat here.
> >
> > I don't know about cheaper, but easier it certainly is.  Especially with
> > a bunch of kids that need to be fed.

> Cheaper. Subsidized corn makes up the most used ingredient in everything on 
> the menu at a place like McDonalds. From the filler in the meat (and what do 
> they feed the meet factories? corn... they feed corn to an animal that is 
> specialized to eat grassy greens. wtf), to the breading around the meat, the 
> buns, french fries (what potatos?), beverage and salad dressing.

  It may be cheaper if you want to eat the *same* food you get from the
restaurants. However, I'm sure that one can come up with cuisine that's
actually cheaper and equally (if not even more) nutritive..

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

Ross wrote:
> "Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote in message 
> news:475c3e4d@news.povray.org...
>> On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 10:24:07 -0800, Darren New wrote:
>>
>>> Incidentally, in the US, it's often cheaper to eat out at an inexpensive
>>> restaurant (like pizza of McD) than to buy fresh food to prepare at
>>> home. That's why poor people get fat here.
>> I don't know about cheaper, but easier it certainly is.  Especially with
>> a bunch of kids that need to be fed.
> 
> Cheaper. Subsidized corn makes up the most used ingredient in everything on 
> the menu at a place like McDonalds. From the filler in the meat (and what do 
> they feed the meet factories? corn... they feed corn to an animal that is 
> specialized to eat grassy greens. wtf), to the breading around the meat, the 
> buns, french fries (what potatos?), beverage and salad dressing.

I've been to McDonald's.  I've been to the grocery store.  The grocery 
store is only more expensive if you insist on buying prepared foods.  I 
have built lunches for less than a dollar each by shopping in bulk; 
these meals were not as entertaining as some people would find to their 
liking, but they were nutritionally adequate.

People who can afford *any* restaurant on a regular basis are not poor, 
and any definition of poor that includes such people is faulty.

Regards,
John

Post a reply to this message

John VanSickle <evi### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
> People who can afford *any* restaurant on a regular basis are not poor,
> and any definition of poor that includes such people is faulty.
>

I'd agree with "People who after a completely rational analysis of their
finances spend any time at a restaurant (and not skip on health care, rent,
college savings)  are not poor. "

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:07:23 -0500, Ross wrote:

> "Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote in message
> news:475c3e4d@news.povray.org...
>> On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 10:24:07 -0800, Darren New wrote:
>>
>>> Incidentally, in the US, it's often cheaper to eat out at an
>>> inexpensive restaurant (like pizza of McD) than to buy fresh food to
>>> prepare at home. That's why poor people get fat here.
>>
>> I don't know about cheaper, but easier it certainly is.  Especially
>> with a bunch of kids that need to be fed.
> 
> Cheaper. Subsidized corn makes up the most used ingredient in everything
> on the menu at a place like McDonalds. From the filler in the meat (and
> what do they feed the meet factories? corn... they feed corn to an
> animal that is specialized to eat grassy greens. wtf), to the breading
> around the meat, the buns, french fries (what potatos?), beverage and
> salad dressing.

Well, let's see...

Stew beef, from CostCo:  $15 for 5 lbs. (1/4 lb = $0.75)

8 hamburger buns, about $2.50 ($0.31 per bun)

For 1/4 pound burgers, grind up the stew beef (pre-ground is more 
expensive by about $1 per pound IIRC), add a little bit of bread (we 
added 3 slices of bread chopped into fine bread crumbs - one loaf was 
about $1.35 IIRC and is maybe 15-20 slices - that handled 2.25 lbs of 
beef) - about $0.05 per burger.

So we're at $1.11 per burger, and it's fresh made instead of padded with 
corn.

One potato per serving of fries would be $0.20 (about $5 for 25 lbs, 
figure 1 lb per serving of fries).  A bit of oil to fry them in, peanut 
oil is good unless you have allergies to peanuts, otherwise sunflower oil 
works too).  Figure $4.00 for 4-5 uses (and each use is more than a 
single serving) - $0.15 per serving is probably a high estimate.

So the fries are about $0.35 per serving.

Drink will be the most expensive component if you want a brand name cola 
beverage.  I pay about $0.25 per 12 oz can in a case of 24.  So figure 
one of those...

Total cost:  $1.11 + $0.35 + $0.25 = $1.71 per meal.

IIRC, a quarter pounder with cheese meal costs around $4 around here.  
(It's been about 10 years since I ate at a McDonald's).

There are additional costs to making it yourself, of course - you've got 
to have equipment, for starters.  Time is also a factor to consider.

But I'll take the cheaper homemade burger any day over the trash served 
at McDonald's.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

> Time is also a factor to consider.

I think this is the key point, also laziness.  Why spend all the effort 
shopping and making stuff, when for a couple of $ more you can get it all 
done for you?  I suspect for most people the extra expense for a ready-made 
burger is less than what they could earn in the time it takes to buy 
ingredients and prepare.

Buying in bulk and doing it yourself is all very well, but unless you plan 
to eat burgers every night your ingredients are going to go bad pretty soon, 
then the cost benefit is wiped out.  Don't forget you have all the other 
stuff in the burger, like salad, sauces, cheese etc.

Post a reply to this message

Don't forget that a quarter-pounder in McDonald's most definitely does 
not contain a quarter-pound of meat, even before cooking, whereas Jim's 
burgers sound like they could be used as a 'standard' quarter-pound 
reference weight! :)

Post a reply to this message

> Don't forget that a quarter-pounder in McDonald's most definitely does 
> not contain a quarter-pound of meat, even before cooking,

From:

http://www.mcdonalds.co.uk/resources/img/sections/eatsmart/Nutrition.pdf

"Quarter Pounder* with Cheese
Beef
100% Pure Beef. No additives, fillers, binders,
preservatives or flavour enhancers. Just pure
forequarter and flank. A little salt and pepper is
added to season after cooking. (*113.4 grams
approx. pre-cooked weight)."

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>> Don't forget that a quarter-pounder in McDonald's most definitely does 
>> not contain a quarter-pound of meat, even before cooking,
> 
> From:
> 
> http://www.mcdonalds.co.uk/resources/img/sections/eatsmart/Nutrition.pdf
> 
> "Quarter Pounder* with Cheese
> Beef
> 100% Pure Beef. No additives, fillers, binders,
> preservatives or flavour enhancers. Just pure
> forequarter and flank. A little salt and pepper is
> added to season after cooking. (*113.4 grams
> approx. pre-cooked weight)."

Yeah yeah. They look pretty good in the photos on the menu, too, but 
I've never had a burger that could be described like that from a 
McDonalds, even in the US.

Post a reply to this message

>> From:
>>
>> http://www.mcdonalds.co.uk/resources/img/sections/eatsmart/Nutrition.pdf
>>
>> "Quarter Pounder* with Cheese
>> Beef
>> 100% Pure Beef. No additives, fillers, binders,
>> preservatives or flavour enhancers. Just pure
>> forequarter and flank. A little salt and pepper is
>> added to season after cooking. (*113.4 grams
>> approx. pre-cooked weight)."
>
> Yeah yeah. They look pretty good in the photos on the menu, too, but I've 
> never had a burger that could be described like that from a McDonalds, 
> even in the US.

I think they would be in a severe amount of trouble if what they were 
actually selling wasn't what they were advertising...  Whether you think it 
tastes like beef or not I guess is another matter ;-)

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>>> From:
>>>
>>> http://www.mcdonalds.co.uk/resources/img/sections/eatsmart/Nutrition.pdf
>>>
>>> "Quarter Pounder* with Cheese
>>> Beef
>>> 100% Pure Beef. No additives, fillers, binders,
>>> preservatives or flavour enhancers. Just pure
>>> forequarter and flank. A little salt and pepper is
>>> added to season after cooking. (*113.4 grams
>>> approx. pre-cooked weight)."
>>
>> Yeah yeah. They look pretty good in the photos on the menu, too, but 
>> I've never had a burger that could be described like that from a 
>> McDonalds, even in the US.
> 
> I think they would be in a severe amount of trouble if what they were 
> actually selling wasn't what they were advertising...  Whether you think 
> it tastes like beef or not I guess is another matter ;-)

Yes, there is that problem too :-)

Post a reply to this message

"Warp" <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote in message 
news:475f0c60@news.povray.org...
> Ross <rli### [at] speakeasynet> wrote:
>> "Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote in message
>> news:475c3e4d@news.povray.org...
>> > On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 10:24:07 -0800, Darren New wrote:
>> >
>> >> Incidentally, in the US, it's often cheaper to eat out at an 
>> >> inexpensive
>> >> restaurant (like pizza of McD) than to buy fresh food to prepare at
>> >> home. That's why poor people get fat here.
>> >
>> > I don't know about cheaper, but easier it certainly is.  Especially 
>> > with
>> > a bunch of kids that need to be fed.
>
>> Cheaper. Subsidized corn makes up the most used ingredient in everything 
>> on
>> the menu at a place like McDonalds. From the filler in the meat (and what 
>> do
>> they feed the meet factories? corn... they feed corn to an animal that is
>> specialized to eat grassy greens. wtf), to the breading around the meat, 
>> the
>> buns, french fries (what potatos?), beverage and salad dressing.
>
>  It may be cheaper if you want to eat the *same* food you get from the
> restaurants. However, I'm sure that one can come up with cuisine that's
> actually cheaper and equally (if not even more) nutritive..
>

No doubt. However, in some neighborhoods of NYC there are no markets that 
carries fresh produce. And yes, they happen to be low income neighborhoods. 
McD's or Burger King on every corner though, I'd bet.

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 09:37:20 +0100, scott wrote:

>> Time is also a factor to consider.
> 
> I think this is the key point, also laziness.  Why spend all the effort
> shopping and making stuff, when for a couple of $ more you can get it
> all done for you?  I suspect for most people the extra expense for a
> ready-made burger is less than what they could earn in the time it takes
> to buy ingredients and prepare.

You know, though, I thought that way for years - turns out, the time 
factor really isn't as big a deal as I thought it was.  Sure, if I want 
to make bread it'll take me 4 hours (but most of that time is waiting).  
If I want to make fresh pasta, it's about an hour, but 15-30 minutes of 
that is also waiting.

> Buying in bulk and doing it yourself is all very well, but unless you
> plan to eat burgers every night your ingredients are going to go bad
> pretty soon, then the cost benefit is wiped out.  

That's why you break out the meat you need and freeze the rest.

> Don't forget you have
> all the other stuff in the burger, like salad, sauces, cheese etc.

Sure, but the cost spread over time there makes it a few cents more as 
well.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

"scott" <sco### [at] laptopcom> wrote in message 
news:475f9dc1$1@news.povray.org...
>> Time is also a factor to consider.
>
> I think this is the key point, also laziness.  Why spend all the effort 
> shopping and making stuff, when for a couple of $ more you can get it all 
> done for you?  I suspect for most people the extra expense for a 
> ready-made burger is less than what they could earn in the time it takes 
> to buy ingredients and prepare.
>
> Buying in bulk and doing it yourself is all very well, but unless you plan 
> to eat burgers every night your ingredients are going to go bad pretty 
> soon, then the cost benefit is wiped out.  Don't forget you have all the 
> other stuff in the burger, like salad, sauces, cheese etc.
>
>

But does any part of going to McD's outweight the family bonding experience 
of making a meal?

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 13:03:43 +0100, scott wrote:

> I think they would be in a severe amount of trouble if what they were
> actually selling wasn't what they were advertising...  Whether you think
> it tastes like beef or not I guess is another matter ;-)

My wife's brother-in-law's daughter once made a comment about being a 
vegetarian - said that McDonald's hamburgers were something she couldn't 
eat, but that the cheeseburgers were.

Some people have a very strange idea of what it is to be a vegetarian...

Jim

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>> Don't forget that a quarter-pounder in McDonald's most definitely does
>> not contain a quarter-pound of meat, even before cooking,
> 
> From:
> 
> http://www.mcdonalds.co.uk/resources/img/sections/eatsmart/Nutrition.pdf
> 
> "Quarter Pounder* with Cheese
> Beef
> 100% Pure Beef. No additives, fillers, binders,
> preservatives or flavour enhancers. Just pure
> forequarter and flank. A little salt and pepper is
> added to season after cooking. (*113.4 grams
> approx. pre-cooked weight)."
> 

'Pure Beef' is a brand name, I bet.

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> Total cost:  $1.11 + $0.35 + $0.25 = $1.71 per meal.
> 
> IIRC, a quarter pounder with cheese meal costs around $4 around here.  
> (It's been about 10 years since I ate at a McDonald's).
> 
> There are additional costs to making it yourself, of course - you've got 
> to have equipment, for starters.  Time is also a factor to consider.
> 
> But I'll take the cheaper homemade burger any day over the trash served 
> at McDonald's.
> 
> Jim

There are other up front costs that you missed, that would prevent a
family just teetering on the edge of money problems would not be able to
afford. Cookware is one, storage of the food is probably a bigger one.

Let's say the family actually eat like most people I know, they can
stand the same food for a day or two, but a week of hamburgers would get
on their nerves. Where do they store 5lbs of beef? If they take
advantage of good prices, they need to store the groceries some place.
They need a freezer to store all of that in, and the small fridges they
probably had before kids just won't cut it for storing enough food for a
family of 4 or 5. The obvious cost of a new fridge or a separate deep
freeze, along with the electrical costs, outweigh the hidden savings of
fast food.

Add to that the cost of cookware. I know families who get by with less
cookware then I would have believed possible. 1 or 2 fry pans, a small
pot and a slighter bigger one. To fix burgers like this, they need a
meat grinder at least. How many meals till it breaks even for them? If
they consider eating out at McD as a special once in a while event, how
many weeks or months would it take for them to recoup that cost? Add to
that the cost of a CostCo membership*, and freezer to store bulk food in.

*guessing here. There isn't a CostCo around here. I've heard they are a
membership type store, like SamsClub. The local grocery store charges
more then 3$ lbs for decent beef, Wal-mart charges less but I've never
seen anything there that looked eatable.

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:09:11 -0500, Sabrina Kilian wrote:

> There are other up front costs that you missed, that would prevent a
> family just teetering on the edge of money problems would not be able to
> afford. Cookware is one, storage of the food is probably a bigger one.

One of my best friends (and former boss once upon a time) for a long time 
wasn't able to afford housing - the only way he had a place to live was 
because he took a position as a caretaker at an apartment complex - in 
addition to a job working fast food.

He's *finally* gotten out of that situation now, still working at the 
apartment, but now working jewelry retail (and doing fairly well at it, 
from what I have heard).

Cookware and food storage were a problem for a while, but there's plenty 
of ways which that can be overcome; you don't need all-clad cookware to 
prepare home-cooked meals.  Sure, it's nice, and it's shiny, and the 
stuff lasts forever if you take care of it (we've got some here).  But 
you can purchase a simple frying pan for under $5 that'll last you a 
while.

> Let's say the family actually eat like most people I know, they can
> stand the same food for a day or two, but a week of hamburgers would get
> on their nerves. Where do they store 5lbs of beef? If they take
> advantage of good prices, they need to store the groceries some place.
> They need a freezer to store all of that in, and the small fridges they
> probably had before kids just won't cut it for storing enough food for a
> family of 4 or 5. The obvious cost of a new fridge or a separate deep
> freeze, along with the electrical costs, outweigh the hidden savings of
> fast food.

Most of the people I know who have struggled (myself included) at some 
point in their lives have had a fridge.  Many live in apartments, and 
appliances tend to be included as part of the rent.

For a really interesting look at this, check out Morgan Spurlock's "30 
Days" - in the first season, he and his wife lived on minimum wage for a 
month just to see how difficult it was.

It was difficult, but not impossible - and as they looked at their 
budget, eating out even at McDonald's was too expensive.

> Add to that the cost of cookware. I know families who get by with less
> cookware then I would have believed possible. 1 or 2 fry pans, a small
> pot and a slighter bigger one. To fix burgers like this, they need a
> meat grinder at least. How many meals till it breaks even for them? If
> they consider eating out at McD as a special once in a while event, how
> many weeks or months would it take for them to recoup that cost? 

So they buy pre-ground beef instead of grinding it themselves.  It adds a 
little to the cost, but if you don't have the equipment, over time, it 
still will work out better.  Even if they buy a single pound of beef and 
work with that.

> Add to
> that the cost of a CostCo membership*, and freezer to store bulk food
> in.

Yes, Costco membership is a $50 cost minimum; I used that as an example, 
but you can get similar deals at the local grocery store (not as low of 
prices, but sometimes close if you catch things at the right time).  Buy 
in bulk with friends (I know some families who have done that in the 
past).

The cost "savings" received by eating the garbage at McDonald's (or any 
fast food resturaunt) is offset by much larger medical expenses down the 
road - sometimes sooner rather than later.

> *guessing here. There isn't a CostCo around here. I've heard they are a
> membership type store, like SamsClub. The local grocery store charges
> more then 3$ lbs for decent beef, Wal-mart charges less but I've never
> seen anything there that looked eatable.

I wouldn't shop at Wallmart if it was the last place on the planet to buy 
stuff.  Or Sams Club, for that matter.  They're part of the problem, not 
the solution - if anyone thinks different, try talking to some of the 
underpaid employees sometime.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:09:11 -0500, Sabrina Kilian wrote:
 >> Let's say the family actually eat like most people I know, they can
>> stand the same food for a day or two, but a week of hamburgers would get
>> on their nerves. Where do they store 5lbs of beef? If they take
>> advantage of good prices, they need to store the groceries some place.
>> They need a freezer to store all of that in, and the small fridges they
>> probably had before kids just won't cut it for storing enough food for a
>> family of 4 or 5. The obvious cost of a new fridge or a separate deep
>> freeze, along with the electrical costs, outweigh the hidden savings of
>> fast food.
> 
> Most of the people I know who have struggled (myself included) at some 
> point in their lives have had a fridge.  Many live in apartments, and 
> appliances tend to be included as part of the rent.
> 

My fridge came with the apartment. The freezer part is just big enough
for a small roast and other frozen stuff like veggies and ice cream.

> For a really interesting look at this, check out Morgan Spurlock's "30 
> Days" - in the first season, he and his wife lived on minimum wage for a 
> month just to see how difficult it was.

I skipped that, wasn't it on Fox for a while? Living below minimum wage
myself, I know first hand what difference fast food makes on a budget. I
am not advocating fast food, just that I understand why some people
think it's a better option.

> 
> It was difficult, but not impossible - and as they looked at their 
> budget, eating out even at McDonald's was too expensive.
> 
Completely agree. But, they had the foresight to do that planning and
both the education and knowledge to look for all of that ahead of time.
Some others don't.

>> Add to
>> that the cost of a CostCo membership*, and freezer to store bulk food
>> in.
> 
> Yes, Costco membership is a $50 cost minimum; I used that as an example, 
> but you can get similar deals at the local grocery store (not as low of 
> prices, but sometimes close if you catch things at the right time).  Buy 
> in bulk with friends (I know some families who have done that in the 
> past).
> 

Right, if you catch it at the right time. That's why I made the point of
a larger freezer. Personal observation time. I only buy what I can carry
on a motorcycle or put in someone else's car when shopping with
friends/family. That means that normally, I never have the opportunity
to stock up the freezer with 25$ of what ever whole meat is on sale. My
mother, on the other hand, has a car and a deep freeze. She stocks up on
what ever is on sale, portions and labels it, and can keep it for a year
or so till she decides to fix something. When we were discussing recipes
one day she was amazed at the price I was willing to pay for something
simple, like ground beef, and asked why I didn't buy it on sale. I
showed her what was in the freezer, I had gone through the last batch of
beef since it last had a good price. Her grocery bill for meats is
substantially less then mine, just because of that.

When doing food budgets, I just can't rely on the sale price. I don't
think anyone else in this case could either.

CostCo or the like would be nice, but in this area there just isn't one.
There is a SamsClub an hour away, and a wallmart every couple of blocks
it seems.

> The cost "savings" received by eating the garbage at McDonald's (or any 
> fast food resturaunt) is offset by much larger medical expenses down the 
> road - sometimes sooner rather than later.
> 

To those below the welfare limit, sometimes someone else takes care of
the health problems so that worry might not even be thought of.

>> *guessing here. There isn't a CostCo around here. I've heard they are a
>> membership type store, like SamsClub. The local grocery store charges
>> more then 3$ lbs for decent beef, Wal-mart charges less but I've never
>> seen anything there that looked eatable.
> 
> I wouldn't shop at Wallmart if it was the last place on the planet to buy 
> stuff.  Or Sams Club, for that matter.  They're part of the problem, not 
> the solution - if anyone thinks different, try talking to some of the 
> underpaid employees sometime.
> 
> Jim

I had, for quite a while, refused to even enter a wallmart, just on
principle. I was convinced once to compare my grocery bill by shopping
there, someone was convinced that 'everything was cheaper, it'll help
you save a bit.' So I did. Normal grocery shopping, bread, milk, soda,
cereal and other sundris. Came out 10$ more expensive. Some stuff looks
cheaper, but they nickel and dime the little things like cheap bread and
milk. I'm back to refusing to shop there.

Post a reply to this message

And lo on Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:21:27 -0000, Ross <rli### [at] speakeasynet>  
did spake, saying:

> "scott" <sco### [at] laptopcom> wrote in message
> news:475f9dc1$1@news.povray.org...
>>> Time is also a factor to consider.
>>
>> I think this is the key point, also laziness.  Why spend all the effort
>> shopping and making stuff, when for a couple of $ more you can get it  
>> all
>> done for you?  I suspect for most people the extra expense for a
>> ready-made burger is less than what they could earn in the time it takes
>> to buy ingredients and prepare.
>>
>> Buying in bulk and doing it yourself is all very well, but unless you  
>> plan
>> to eat burgers every night your ingredients are going to go bad pretty
>> soon, then the cost benefit is wiped out.  Don't forget you have all the
>> other stuff in the burger, like salad, sauces, cheese etc.
>>
>>
>
> But does any part of going to McD's outweight the family bonding  
> experience of making a meal?

Perhaps the social bonding experience when most of your neighbourhood  
treat McD's as the default family dinner location?

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

Post a reply to this message

"Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote in message 
news:op.t298wewoc3xi7v@news.povray.org...
> And lo on Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:21:27 -0000, Ross <rli### [at] speakeasynet> 
> did spake, saying:
>
>> "scott" <sco### [at] laptopcom> wrote in message
>> news:475f9dc1$1@news.povray.org...
>>>> Time is also a factor to consider.
>>>
>>> I think this is the key point, also laziness.  Why spend all the effort
>>> shopping and making stuff, when for a couple of $ more you can get it 
>>> all
>>> done for you?  I suspect for most people the extra expense for a
>>> ready-made burger is less than what they could earn in the time it takes
>>> to buy ingredients and prepare.
>>>
>>> Buying in bulk and doing it yourself is all very well, but unless you 
>>> plan
>>> to eat burgers every night your ingredients are going to go bad pretty
>>> soon, then the cost benefit is wiped out.  Don't forget you have all the
>>> other stuff in the burger, like salad, sauces, cheese etc.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> But does any part of going to McD's outweight the family bonding 
>> experience of making a meal?
>
> Perhaps the social bonding experience when most of your neighbourhood 
> treat McD's as the default family dinner location?
>

Interesting, but are these the kids who don't know where milk comes from?

Post a reply to this message

And lo on Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:58:51 -0000, Ross <rli### [at] speakeasynet>  
did spake, saying:

> "Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote in message
> news:op.t298wewoc3xi7v@news.povray.org...
>> And lo on Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:21:27 -0000, Ross  
>> <rli### [at] speakeasynet>
>> did spake, saying:
>>> But does any part of going to McD's outweight the family bonding
>>> experience of making a meal?
>>
>> Perhaps the social bonding experience when most of your neighbourhood
>> treat McD's as the default family dinner location?
>>
>
> Interesting, but are these the kids who don't know where milk comes from?

Pfft everyone knows where milk comes from - the fridge.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

Post a reply to this message

Phil Cook wrote:

> 
> Pfft everyone knows where milk comes from - the fridge.
> 

Euhmmm... nevermind. Fridge is an excellent answer.

Post a reply to this message