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On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:34:18 -0400, Warp wrote:
> I wasn't asking what the ISP can do. I was asking what the police can
> do.
> In most countries there are limits on how the police can spy on people
> (so that the evidence is valid in court).
Over here they need a warrant - and for a warrant, they have to
demonstrate to a court (could be a 'normal' court, could be the FISA
court) that there is probable cause.
If they have a warrant and go to the ISP, the ISP has two choices: Turn
over the information requested in the warrant, or challenge the
authorities in court.
Perhaps it's a question of ownership - in the US (at least), the data
housed by the ISP is owned by the ISP, not the users of the ISP. The
records of your activities online are not owned by the individual, AFAIK.
Jim
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>> Why do you need a law to allow a company to voluntarily supply data to
>> the
>> police? If the police wanted to force data unwillingly from the company,
>> then sure...
>
> Because the data is used without the person's consent.
You gave consent when you signed up with the ISP...
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scott <ask### [at] me com> wrote:
> You gave consent when you signed up with the ISP...
That doesn't mean that the data is good in court. The law goes above
any license agreement.
--
- Warp
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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> Is it written into Finnish law that you can make backup copies of
> software?
Yes. Very explicitly and with unambiguous wording. It also says explicitly
that any license agreement saying otherwise is ineffective.
--
- Warp
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Warp wrote:
> scott <ask### [at] mecom> wrote:
>> You gave consent when you signed up with the ISP...
>
> That doesn't mean that the data is good in court. The law goes above
> any license agreement.
>
I don't know Finnish law, but would the police need a warrant for a
confession that someone offered to them? Do they need a warrant to even
ask 'Have you seen this person'? Here, they can ask but there is no
legal requirement to answer. And if Person A consents to a search of
something they possess then the evidence is valid in court without a
warrant, even if the evidence is gathered from the posessions of Person
A but later used against Person B.
The law does go above the license agreement, but not always in a way
that is helpful to the end user.
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On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:04:59 -0400, Warp wrote:
> Yes. Very explicitly and with unambiguous wording. It also says
> explicitly
> that any license agreement saying otherwise is ineffective.
That's very progressive compared to the primitive state of intellectual
property here in the US.
Most people *assume* "I bought it, I can do what I want with it
regardless of the EULA", but occasionally the "lawyer hammer" is brought
to bear for an infringement suit. Usually the individual cannot afford
to fight it, so they settle out of court.
Jim
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Warp wrote:
> Yes. Very explicitly and with unambiguous wording. It also says explicitly
> that any license agreement saying otherwise is ineffective.
Same in the US, too, at least for one backup copy. Because copyright
law is federal and licenses are state law, copyright law trumps
licenses. Prolock v Copywrite. I am not a lawyer, and this isn't legal
advice. :-)
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Remember the good old days, when we
used to complain about cryptography
being export-restricted?
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> Interesting, looks like you know more about it than I do - does it just
> then relate to payment information and not personal data?
No idea. The one news article I read (after you brought it to my
attention) was talking about payment information.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Remember the good old days, when we
used to complain about cryptography
being export-restricted?
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Warp wrote:
> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> and that your use of the service
>> constitutes agreement with this policy.
>
> No agreement can go against the law. At least not here.
I think that's, generally, the case everywhere. But lots of places have
a list of "this is how it works, *but* an agreement can change that"
sort of laws, so that makes it legal.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Remember the good old days, when we
used to complain about cryptography
being export-restricted?
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>> You gave consent when you signed up with the ISP...
>
> That doesn't mean that the data is good in court. The law goes above
> any license agreement.
Which law says that evidence gained from an ISP about a user who has agreed
for such evidence to be collected, stored and passed to the authorities, is
not valid in a court?
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>> Is it written into Finnish law that you can make backup copies of
>> software?
>
> Yes. Very explicitly and with unambiguous wording. It also says
> explicitly
> that any license agreement saying otherwise is ineffective.
Do you mean just the "no backup" clause is ineffective, or the whole license
agreement?
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>>> and that your use of the service constitutes agreement with this policy.
>>
>> No agreement can go against the law. At least not here.
>
> I think that's, generally, the case everywhere. But lots of places have a
> list of "this is how it works, *but* an agreement can change that" sort of
> laws, so that makes it legal.
Also they have things like
A) You must not make copies and sell them.
B) <some illegal requirement/agreement>
C) ...
.
Z) If any of the above terms are broken this license is terminated and you
must return all software and media and you're not allowed to use the
software blah blah blah
I have an illegal clause in my job contract (about working for competitors),
they can't do anything legally about it of course (unless they could show I
had given away company confidential information), but they would be
perfectly entitled to "terminate" my contract!
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scott <sco### [at] laptopcom> wrote:
> Which law says that evidence gained from an ISP about a user who has agreed
> for such evidence to be collected, stored and passed to the authorities, is
> not valid in a court?
The same which says that license agreements never go over the law.
If there's a law that says that spying on users without special permit
is not allowed, a license agreement saying "I give permission for the
police to spy on me" will not change the fact in any way. Such license
agreement is ineffective and invalid. At least in general here.
--
- Warp
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scott <sco### [at] laptopcom> wrote:
> Do you mean just the "no backup" clause is ineffective, or the whole license
> agreement?
What do you think?
--
- Warp
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> If there's a law that says that spying on users without special permit
> is not allowed, a license agreement saying "I give permission for the
> police to spy on me" will not change the fact in any way.
It's not spying because you've agreed to it! If you *didn't* know about it,
then sure, it's spying and needs a special permit or whatever, but we are
talking about the situation where you give the ISP permission to log your
data and pass it to the police if they wish to do so. What law makes that
illegal?
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>> Do you mean just the "no backup" clause is ineffective, or the whole
>> license
>> agreement?
>
> What do you think?
Well both seem to lead to a funny situation, that's why I asked.
If it means the whole license is invalid, then that also means the parts
that give you permission to use the software, and the parts about not
copying it and selling it, giving public performances using it, hiring it
out to people etc. Essentially your only option (legally) would be to send
everything back and asking them to send a legal license agreement.
If it means only the "no backup" clause is ineffective, then presumably
there is another clause that says "if any of the other clauses are broken
then the whole license is terminated", in which case you could use it as
normal, but if you made a backup you'd terminate the license agreement and
have to send the software back.
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Warp wrote:
> If there's a law that says that spying on users without special permit
> is not allowed, a license agreement saying "I give permission for the
> police to spy on me" will not change the fact in any way. Such license
> agreement is ineffective and invalid. At least in general here.
So my freedom to choose to allow someone to spy on me is removed in the
name of 'privacy'. In the end, we willingly giving up freedoms, as long
as we know about it.
--
Tim Cook
http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-empyrean
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GFA dpu- s: a?-- C++(++++) U P? L E--- W++(+++)>$
N++ o? K- w(+) O? M-(--) V? PS+(+++) PE(--) Y(--)
PGP-(--) t* 5++>+++++ X+ R* tv+ b++(+++) DI
D++(---) G(++) e*>++ h+ !r--- !y--
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
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On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 18:06:10 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Interesting, looks like you know more about it than I do - does it just
>> then relate to payment information and not personal data?
>
> No idea. The one news article I read (after you brought it to my
> attention) was talking about payment information.
Ah, OK.. :-)
Jim
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>> Regardless of the suspected crime type, I'm still not very comfortable
>> if the police could legally spy on anyone they want.
>
> In the USA, the police are *supposed* to go to a judge and convince the
> judge of the need to do this. That this is being ignored is troublesome
> to me. But I don't have much of a problem with it when the judge is
> involved.
>
> Of course, the bit of "let's watch everyone always who is in public, and
> record any data leaving or entering their private house" is also
> troublesome, but certainly easier to get around.
The NSA has been listening to almost everyone for 50+ years,
but they mostly stay out of local stuff, at least on paper.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/06/21/att_nsa/index_np.html
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/105-2086583-8243611?initialSearch=1&url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=puzzle+palace
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Tim Cook wrote:
> Warp wrote:
>> If there's a law that says that spying on users without special permit
>> is not allowed, a license agreement saying "I give permission for the
>> police to spy on me" will not change the fact in any way. Such license
>> agreement is ineffective and invalid. At least in general here.
>
> So my freedom to choose to allow someone to spy on me is removed in the
> name of 'privacy'. In the end, we willingly giving up freedoms, as long
> as we know about it.
Yes, because most such contracts are contracts of adhesion. In other
words, you don't really have a choice what the terms are, because
there's no negotiating going on. Can you pay the ISP another $.50 a
month to not turn your records over to the police? No. Is there another
ISP in the region with the same speed and capability? No. Then it's
reasonable for the populace to get together and say "we disagree that
it's OK for you to force this choice upon us."
Welcome to society. Enjoy your stay. :-)
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Remember the good old days, when we
used to complain about cryptography
being export-restricted?
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scott wrote:
>>>> and that your use of the service constitutes agreement with this
>>>> policy.
>>>
>>> No agreement can go against the law. At least not here.
>>
>> I think that's, generally, the case everywhere. But lots of places
>> have a list of "this is how it works, *but* an agreement can change
>> that" sort of laws, so that makes it legal.
>
> Also they have things like
>
> A) You must not make copies and sell them.
> B) <some illegal requirement/agreement>
> C) ...
> ..
> Z) If any of the above terms are broken this license is terminated and
> you must return all software and media and you're not allowed to use the
> software blah blah blah
>
> I have an illegal clause in my job contract (about working for
> competitors), they can't do anything legally about it of course (unless
> they could show I had given away company confidential information), but
> they would be perfectly entitled to "terminate" my contract!
Not really. You didn't break clause B because clause B is is illegal to
include in the first place. The presence or absence of clause B is
irrelevant to the enforcability of the contract.
In any case, most contracts have clauses of severability, meaning they
have a clause that says "If any part of this contract is illegal, the
other parts still hold." Which means clause B, being illegal, would be
severed from the contract. This is an ass-cover so the company writing
the contract can sue you for breaching parts of it even if you manage to
prove an irrelevant part is illegal to include.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Remember the good old days, when we
used to complain about cryptography
being export-restricted?
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Tim Attwood wrote:
> The NSA has been listening to almost everyone for 50+ years,
> but they mostly stay out of local stuff, at least on paper.
In the USA, citizens (and to a different extent residents) have rather
different sets of rights w.r.t. government activity than foreigners in
the USA or outside it.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Remember the good old days, when we
used to complain about cryptography
being export-restricted?
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Tim Cook <z99### [at] bellsouthnet> wrote:
> So my freedom to choose to allow someone to spy on me is removed in the
> name of 'privacy'.
Well, you have the freedom of not suing the one who spied on you...
--
- Warp
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scott <sco### [at] laptopcom> wrote:
> If it means the whole license is invalid, then that also means the parts
> that give you permission to use the software, and the parts about not
> copying it and selling it, giving public performances using it, hiring it
> out to people etc. Essentially your only option (legally) would be to send
> everything back and asking them to send a legal license agreement.
It wouldn't make too much sense for the entire license to become invalid
just because one point was invalid.
> If it means only the "no backup" clause is ineffective, then presumably
> there is another clause that says "if any of the other clauses are broken
> then the whole license is terminated", in which case you could use it as
> normal, but if you made a backup you'd terminate the license agreement and
> have to send the software back.
I'm sure that wouldn't hold in court.
--
- Warp
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scott wrote:
> If it means only the "no backup" clause is ineffective, then presumably
> there is another clause that says "if any of the other clauses are
> broken then the whole license is terminated", in which case you could
> use it as normal, but if you made a backup you'd terminate the license
> agreement and have to send the software back.
If the license is invalid, why would you have to send the software back?
Then (in the USA) it just turns into a copyright question. I.e., the use
and copying of the software is controlled by the laws that regulate what
you do with any other purchase you make without an explicit license,
like buying books or artwork or food or whatever.
If the license says you have to send it back, and the license is
invalid, then you wouldn't have to send it back.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Remember the good old days, when we
used to complain about cryptography
being export-restricted?
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> If the license is invalid, why would you have to send the software back?
> Then (in the USA) it just turns into a copyright question. I.e., the use
> and copying of the software is controlled by the laws that regulate what
> you do with any other purchase you make without an explicit license, like
> buying books or artwork or food or whatever.
What have you bought though if you haven't got a license to use the
software? A useless coaster? Or do you have a right to use software with
some "default" license that specifies how/where you can use it etc?
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And lo on Fri, 19 Oct 2007 05:33:55 +0100, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom>
did spake, saying:
> Tim Attwood wrote:
>> The NSA has been listening to almost everyone for 50+ years,
>> but they mostly stay out of local stuff, at least on paper.
>
> In the USA, citizens (and to a different extent residents) have rather
> different sets of rights w.r.t. government activity than foreigners in
> the USA or outside it.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,
until such time the government divides them up into different groups so
they can be dealt with in a way that pleases them. ;-)
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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scott wrote:
> What have you bought though if you haven't got a license to use the
> software?
The same thing you have if you bought a book without a license. Is a
book useless that way? How about a CD?
> A useless coaster? Or do you have a right to use software
> with some "default" license that specifies how/where you can use it etc?
You own it. You can use it however you like that doesn't violate
existing laws. (One would think copyright law would be the main one
you'd be able to violate with software, altho murdering someone by
bashing them over the head with the box is also probably illegal.)
IANAL.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Remember the good old days, when we
used to complain about cryptography
being export-restricted?
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scott escribió:
>>> By using the internet you are effectively agreeing that everyone else
>>> can
>>> see what you are doing.
>>
>> I see no law specifying this.
>
> It's not a case of law or not, it's the fact that you signed an
> agreement with the company that gives you access to the internet. If
> you don't agree with their terms, then use another ISP, or if you can't
> find one that you agree with then make your own ISP or don't use the
> internet.
>
Ahh that's the fun of ISPs around here. You could get an Internet
service after a few phone calls without ever seeing an agreement, let
alone signing it.
They call offering the service (=telemarketing!), you say yes, and a few
weeks later they come install it. Then you (the following is actual
experience) notice the price they're charging is like twice what they
offered. So you call. "I was told it would be 19.99 for the first three
months but I got charged 39.99 the first month!" and they go "Huh? We
have never had a 19.99 promotion..."
And how the heck do you prove what the marketing guy told you if you
have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in paper about the Internet service?
But then, if I get spied, "I never signed anything agreeing to that" :)
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