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Say for instance I bought www.nokia.com long before Nokia realised they
needed a website. Do they have any right to force me to give-up that domain
name, just because they are a huge multi-national company, or is it just
tough luck and they have to pay me whatever it will take?
Would it make any difference if I ran a small company called 'Nokia Gizmos'
or something that nobody had every heard of? Do they have more right to it
than be just because they are a bigger well-known multi-national company?
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"scott" <sco### [at] laptop com> wrote in message
news:46e79654$1@news.povray.org...
> Say for instance I bought www.nokia.com long before Nokia realised they
> needed a website. Do they have any right to force me to give-up that
> domain name, just because they are a huge multi-national company, or is it
> just tough luck and they have to pay me whatever it will take?
As long as you don't use it in any way, then sit back and wait for the
offers. You have every right to register that domain if you want.
>
> Would it make any difference if I ran a small company called 'Nokia
> Gizmos' or something that nobody had every heard of?
You couldn't start a company with the word 'Nokia' in it, and if you
chose any variation of the word because of this, it still might be trouble
for 'sounding' too close to their (trade)name.
Do they have more right to it
> than be just because they are a bigger well-known multi-national company?
No, they have no more right to it than you, but you just couldn't use it
in any way, unless it would be to their benefit, and they give you the right
to use it.
That's my understanding anyway.
~Steve~
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> As long as you don't use it in any way, then sit back and wait for the
> offers. You have every right to register that domain if you want.
That's what I thought.
>> Would it make any difference if I ran a small company called 'Nokia
>> Gizmos' or something that nobody had every heard of?
>
> You couldn't start a company with the word 'Nokia' in it, and if
> you chose any variation of the word because of this, it still might be
> trouble for 'sounding' too close to their (trade)name.
OK but assume the 2nd company already exists and just happens to have the
word Nokia in it's name (totally legally). It has registered and is using
www.nokia.com to promote its own business, it registered this before Nokia
realised that it needed a .com website.
I just wondered if there is anything the "real" Nokia can do, apart from
having to pay the small Nokia Blah Blah (that nobody has heard of) enough
money to change their minds...
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"scott" <sco### [at] laptopcom> a écrit dans le message de news:
46e79654$1@news.povray.org...
> Would it make any difference if I ran a small company called 'Nokia
> Gizmos' or something that nobody had every heard of? Do they have more
> right to it than be just because they are a bigger well-known
> multi-national company?
Good luck with that...
http://www.ncchelp.org/The_Story/the_story.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4348585.stm
G.
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"scott" <sco### [at] laptopcom> wrote in message
news:46e7a733$1@news.povray.org...
>> As long as you don't use it in any way, then sit back and wait for the
>> offers. You have every right to register that domain if you want.
>
> That's what I thought.
>
>>> Would it make any difference if I ran a small company called 'Nokia
>>> Gizmos' or something that nobody had every heard of?
>>
>> You couldn't start a company with the word 'Nokia' in it, and if
>> you chose any variation of the word because of this, it still might be
>> trouble for 'sounding' too close to their (trade)name.
>
> OK but assume the 2nd company already exists and just happens to have the
> word Nokia in it's name (totally legally). It has registered and is using
> www.nokia.com to promote its own business, it registered this before Nokia
> realised that it needed a .com website.
>
> I just wondered if there is anything the "real" Nokia can do, apart from
> having to pay the small Nokia Blah Blah (that nobody has heard of) enough
> money to change their minds...
Well, before Gilles posted the Nissan link, I was going to suggest that
yes, you could probably still use the domain, BUT, you would have to be
*very careful* in what you publish to the website. It seems that I'm correct
with this, (e.g. the restrictions that the courts laid down to Mr. Nissan in
continuing to use those domains), but after reading what he says, I would
think of some other domain name, and just sit on the original and see what
happens. As long as the registrant keeps the domain registered, there is,
(in my understanding), no way they can 'force' you to hand it over as long
as it's not used it in any non-commercial/commercial way.
~Steve~
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And lo on Wed, 12 Sep 2007 08:33:40 +0100, scott <sco### [at] laptopcom> did
spake, saying:
> Say for instance I bought www.nokia.com long before Nokia realised they
> needed a website. Do they have any right to force me to give-up that
> domain name, just because they are a huge multi-national company, or is
> it just tough luck and they have to pay me whatever it will take?
>
> Would it make any difference if I ran a small company called 'Nokia
> Gizmos' or something that nobody had every heard of? Do they have more
> right to it than be just because they are a bigger well-known
> multi-national company?
You're heading into trademark land. Remember Apple, the two were
operating in different spheres hence no problem. With Gilles examples the
French courts should have told Kraft to bugger off, Milka Budmir wasn't
selling chocolate, wasn't profiting from the association and had a
legimate reason to use the name; Kraft's fault for not registering it
first. As for Mr Nissan the case could be made that as he was dealing with
cars as was Nissan it boils down to if Nissan existed as a car seller
prior to his enterprise and was well known in that fact, (which they
weren't) as for the other companies he set again a large sod off is in
order for the same reason as Milka.
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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> You're heading into trademark land. Remember Apple, the two were
> operating in different spheres hence no problem. With Gilles examples the
> French courts should have told Kraft to bugger off, Milka Budmir wasn't
> selling chocolate, wasn't profiting from the association
I'm sure she got a few more hits by people searching for Milka Chocolate...
> Kraft's fault for not registering it first.
Yep, that was my first thoughts too, but once I started thinking about it,
the woman would have likely been making more profit as a direct result of
Kraft's effort to build the Milka brand. It doesn't matter that they aren't
the same type of goods, no doubt *some* people who are looking for chocolate
would have taken an interest in whatever she was selling. I haven't decided
yet whether I think that should be allowed or not.
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"Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> a écrit dans le message de
news: op.tyjfwfzyc3xi7v@news.povray.org...
> You're heading into trademark land. Remember Apple, the two were
> operating in different spheres hence no problem. With Gilles examples the
> French courts should have told Kraft to bugger off, Milka Budmir wasn't
> selling chocolate, wasn't profiting from the association and had a
> legimate reason to use the name; Kraft's fault for not registering it
> first.
The problem is that individuals usually can't afford this kind of fight,
unlike corporations.
I just had a look at the Milka case, btw. While I still feel that she was in
her right, I see that she asked 25000 euros because Kraft "tattooed a cow in
mauve, thus slandering her name" and another 25000 because of the
"commercial usage of a degrading image that she was identified with"
(presumably the mauve cow named Milka). This was pretty stupid and I can
understand that a judge would find her arguments frivolous.
Another problem is that Kraft accused her to have used the mauve colour for
her website background, something they claimed was a proof of malicious
intent. Mrs Budmir said that colour was fuschia, not mauve. The court still
maintained that the colour was a problem, even though they said that a
"chromatic analysis" was no longer possible. Of course, said colour is 1
second away at archive.org, and the "chromatic analysis" consists in reading
the HTML code (#0080FF fuschia while Kraft is #706DB2 mauve), something
nobody did apparently. So Kraft benefited from Budmir's, her lawyer's and
the court's poor technological knowledge.
G.
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And lo on Wed, 12 Sep 2007 12:24:57 +0100, scott <sco### [at] laptopcom> did
spake, saying:
>> You're heading into trademark land. Remember Apple, the two were
>> operating in different spheres hence no problem. With Gilles examples
>> the French courts should have told Kraft to bugger off, Milka Budmir
>> wasn't selling chocolate, wasn't profiting from the association
>
> I'm sure she got a few more hits by people searching for Milka
> Chocolate...
But it would be difficult to show that was intentful. Do people who want
to buy chocolate likely to be looking for clothes too? Is she misleading
people into thinking she's associated with Kraft Foods? As Gilles has said
they've tried to prove malicious intent and presumably succeeded.
>> Kraft's fault for not registering it first.
>
> Yep, that was my first thoughts too, but once I started thinking about
> it, the woman would have likely been making more profit as a direct
> result of Kraft's effort to build the Milka brand. It doesn't matter
> that they aren't the same type of goods, no doubt *some* people who are
> looking for chocolate would have taken an interest in whatever she was
> selling. I haven't decided yet whether I think that should be allowed
> or not.
But it's the trading on a name via association, which is how the trademark
law is applied. How likely is it for people to associate Milka Couture
with Milka Chocolate? If she started selling clothes with an image of the
bar on them then sure; otherwise...? Likewise I could set up McDonald's
Refuse Collection, but McDonald's Chippie might cause brand confusion.
What's to stop me registering harrrods.com or microsft.com, the answer is
that it would be difficult for me to show I did so for 'innocent' reasons.
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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scott wrote:
>> You're heading into trademark land. Remember Apple, the two were
>> operating in different spheres hence no problem. With Gilles examples
>> the French courts should have told Kraft to bugger off, Milka Budmir
>> wasn't selling chocolate, wasn't profiting from the association
>
> I'm sure she got a few more hits by people searching for Milka Chocolate...
>
>> Kraft's fault for not registering it first.
>
> Yep, that was my first thoughts too, but once I started thinking about
> it, the woman would have likely been making more profit as a direct
> result of Kraft's effort to build the Milka brand. It doesn't matter
> that they aren't the same type of goods, no doubt *some* people who are
> looking for chocolate would have taken an interest in whatever she was
> selling.
Women that have to order chocolate on-line because they are unable to go
to the shop next door generally don't fit in fashion clothes.
> I haven't decided yet whether I think that should be allowed
> or not.
>
>
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Gilles Tran wrote:
> "scott" <sco### [at] laptopcom> a écrit dans le message de news:
> 46e79654$1@news.povray.org...
>> Would it make any difference if I ran a small company called 'Nokia
>> Gizmos' or something that nobody had every heard of? Do they have more
>> right to it than be just because they are a bigger well-known
>> multi-national company?
>
> Good luck with that...
> http://www.ncchelp.org/The_Story/the_story.htm
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4348585.stm
>
In stead of taking away a legitimate domain I think a court could rule
that the index.html at the top of the domain should be a disambiguation
page.
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On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 09:33:40 +0200, scott wrote:
> Say for instance I bought www.nokia.com long before Nokia realised they
> needed a website. Do they have any right to force me to give-up that
> domain name, just because they are a huge multi-national company, or is
> it just tough luck and they have to pay me whatever it will take?
>
> Would it make any difference if I ran a small company called 'Nokia
> Gizmos' or something that nobody had every heard of? Do they have more
> right to it than be just because they are a bigger well-known
> multi-national company?
Depends on whether you have a basis for choosing the name other than
cyber-squatting.
Jim
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On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 09:31:12 +0100, St. wrote:
> You couldn't start a company with the word 'Nokia' in it, and if
> you
> chose any variation of the word because of this, it still might be
> trouble for 'sounding' too close to their (trade)name.
Actually, that's not strictly true - you could if the market was
different enough from Nokia's name, at least as I understand it.
Take "Novell" for example; the company name was picked by the wife of one
of the founders, but she was aiming for "Nouvelle" (which I may have even
spelled right there) but misspelled it.
Now consider:
http://www.novelldesignstudio.com/
Not sure which company came first, but the markets served are different
enough that it doesn't matter to either of them, particularly.
At the same time, consider the case of one Mike Rowe (not the guy from
Dirty Jobs) - he went into software development, and set up a website at
mikerowesoft.com - Microsoft successfully shut that site down because the
name would be confusing and they worked in the same market.
Jim
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>> Would it make any difference if I ran a small company called 'Nokia
>> Gizmos' or something that nobody had every heard of? Do they have more
>> right to it than be just because they are a bigger well-known
>> multi-national company?
>
> Depends on whether you have a basis for choosing the name other than
> cyber-squatting.
If my surname was Nokia?
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On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 17:12:36 +0200, scott wrote:
>>> Would it make any difference if I ran a small company called 'Nokia
>>> Gizmos' or something that nobody had every heard of? Do they have
>>> more right to it than be just because they are a bigger well-known
>>> multi-national company?
>>
>> Depends on whether you have a basis for choosing the name other than
>> cyber-squatting.
>
> If my surname was Nokia?
See example of Mike Rowe....But you *might* be able to get away with it,
depending on how you used it.
Jim
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"Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote in message
news:op.tyjfwfzyc3xi7v@news.povray.org...
> And lo on Wed, 12 Sep 2007 08:33:40 +0100, scott <sco### [at] laptopcom> did
> spake, saying:
>
> > Say for instance I bought www.nokia.com long before Nokia realised they
> > needed a website. Do they have any right to force me to give-up that
> > domain name, just because they are a huge multi-national company, or is
> > it just tough luck and they have to pay me whatever it will take?
> >
> > Would it make any difference if I ran a small company called 'Nokia
> > Gizmos' or something that nobody had every heard of? Do they have more
> > right to it than be just because they are a bigger well-known
> > multi-national company?
>
> You're heading into trademark land. Remember Apple, the two were
> operating in different spheres hence no problem.
Until Apple went into music, right? I thought that is when the Apple -vs-
Apple started.
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I think there was a story that some lone inventor genius guy came up with
the name for his company and registered its domain as such: etoys.com.
Then some venture capitalists came up with the idea of an amazon.com-like
internet retail for toys, and wanted etoys.com. They sued the pants off
the poor bloke. He relented.
Political lesson: the difference between actual free markets and today's
capitalism-ism.
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And lo on Wed, 12 Sep 2007 18:14:01 +0100, Ross <rli### [at] speakeasynet>
did spake, saying:
> "Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote in message
> news:op.tyjfwfzyc3xi7v@news.povray.org...
>> And lo on Wed, 12 Sep 2007 08:33:40 +0100, scott <sco### [at] laptopcom> did
>> spake, saying:
>>
>> > Say for instance I bought www.nokia.com long before Nokia realised
>> they
>> > needed a website. Do they have any right to force me to give-up that
>> > domain name, just because they are a huge multi-national company, or
>> is
>> > it just tough luck and they have to pay me whatever it will take?
>> >
>> > Would it make any difference if I ran a small company called 'Nokia
>> > Gizmos' or something that nobody had every heard of? Do they have
>> more
>> > right to it than be just because they are a bigger well-known
>> > multi-national company?
>>
>> You're heading into trademark land. Remember Apple, the two were
>> operating in different spheres hence no problem.
>
> Until Apple went into music, right? I thought that is when the Apple -vs-
> Apple started.
Yep, the original agreement was that Apple (computers) had nothing to do
with music and thus couldn't be confused with Apple (records), and lo iPod
and iTunes were created which reignited the argument.
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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Gilles Tran a écrit :
> I just had a look at the Milka case, btw. While I still feel that she was in
> her right, I see that she asked 25000 euros because Kraft "tattooed a cow in
> mauve, thus slandering her name" and another 25000 because of the
> "commercial usage of a degrading image that she was identified with"
> (presumably the mauve cow named Milka). This was pretty stupid and I can
> understand that a judge would find her arguments frivolous.
First time I read this. If true, probably the idea of a stupid lawyer trying
to counter-attack Kraft in a last attempt, in front of incompetent judges.
BTW, I stopped buying anything named "milka", and mostly (hard, because they
own so much brands, including the excellent ex-Belgian Côte d'Or chocolate)
anything produced by Kraft, since it happened.
Fabien.
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"Fa3ien" <fab### [at] yourshoesskynetbe> a écrit dans le message de news:
46eaaba0@news.povray.org...
> First time I read this. If true, probably the idea of a stupid lawyer
> trying
> to counter-attack Kraft in a last attempt, in front of incompetent judges.
Always go to the source (in French).
http://www.legalis.net/jurisprudence-decision.php3?id_article=1413
Even if this braindead idea was her lawyer's, I guess that a client can
always refuse a defense strategy he/she doesn't approve of (IANAL of course,
so I could be wrong).
In any case, this illustrates the kind of problems individuals run into when
trying to fight this kind of thing. She possibly had a good case and she
could have received help from competent IP lawyers but either she couldn't
afford them or she didn't even know such lawyers existed.
G.
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Jim Henderson a écrit :
>
> At the same time, consider the case of one Mike Rowe (not the guy from
> Dirty Jobs) - he went into software development, and set up a website at
> mikerowesoft.com - Microsoft successfully shut that site down because the
> name would be confusing and they worked in the same market.
The reason they were succesful in shutting him down was that at one
point he said "I'll shut it down for $10000". From that point on, it
became a cybersquatting case. They eventually settled out of court.
--
/*Francois Labreque*/#local a=x+y;#local b=x+a;#local c=a+b;#macro P(F//
/* flabreque */L)polygon{5,F,F+z,L+z,L,F pigment{rgb 9}}#end union
/* @ */{P(0,a)P(a,b)P(b,c)P(2*a,2*b)P(2*b,b+c)P(b+c,<2,3>)
/* sympatico.ca */}camera{orthographic location<6,1.25,-6>look_at a }
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On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 14:55:51 -0400, Francois Labreque wrote:
> Jim Henderson a écrit :
>>
>> At the same time, consider the case of one Mike Rowe (not the guy from
>> Dirty Jobs) - he went into software development, and set up a website
>> at mikerowesoft.com - Microsoft successfully shut that site down
>> because the name would be confusing and they worked in the same market.
>
> The reason they were succesful in shutting him down was that at one
> point he said "I'll shut it down for $10000". From that point on, it
> became a cybersquatting case. They eventually settled out of court.
Yeah, I remember something vaguely about that - but still, assuming that
Microsoft went to him and said "shut it down" in the first place is the
issue.
Jim
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St. escribió:
> As long as the registrant keeps the domain registered, there is,
> (in my understanding), no way they can 'force' you to hand it over as long
> as it's not used it in any non-commercial/commercial way.
>
> ~Steve~
>
>
Now for something completely different... In Argentina, domain names are
free if you register them directly in www.nic.ar, the Network
Information Center (most 3rd parties offering domain registering, with
or without webhosting, will charge; for example, free hosting services
that charge if you want a domain (and fries?) with that).
Apparently there isn't much they can do if somebody already has the name
registered. The recommendation in the FAQ is to basically contact the
one who registered it :P Only if the contact information is outdated or
fake they can do something, but it involves a fairly long bureaucratic mess.
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"St." <dot### [at] dotcom> wrote in message news:46e7b170$1@news.povray.org...
>
> As long as the registrant keeps the domain registered, there is,
> (in my understanding), no way they can 'force' you to hand it over as long
> as it's not used it in any non-commercial/commercial way.
>
I think it depends on the domain authority. For the .co.za domain, they
require that you have the intention to use the domain (ie, do something with
it within a month or so of registering) and if you don't, you loose the
domain. Also you can't register a domain like a trademark, unless you own
the trademark.
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