I'm getting ready to make my first short animations.  There are so many
different formats out there I'm not really sure where to start.  If I were
to post one to povray.binaries.animations is their a preferred format?  If
not is there an FAQ for beginners out there that explains the pros and cons
of the different formats?  I'm also curious what software most POV-Ray users
use to turn their POV-Ray outputted frames into animations.  The docs say
"There are a number of programs available" so I'm looking for
recommendations on something simple and easy to learn and free (as I'm
unemployed at the moment).

Thanks,
Carl

Post a reply to this message

"Carl Hoff" <hof### [at] wtnet> wrote in message news:402d5d67@news.povray.org...
> I'm getting ready to make my first short animations.  There are so many
> different formats out there I'm not really sure where to start.  If I were
> to post one to povray.binaries.animations is their a preferred format?  If
> not is there an FAQ for beginners out there that explains the pros and
cons
> of the different formats?  I'm also curious what software most POV-Ray
users
> use to turn their POV-Ray outputted frames into animations.  The docs say
> "There are a number of programs available" so I'm looking for
> recommendations on something simple and easy to learn and free (as I'm
> unemployed at the moment).

The IRTC accepts MPEG-1 files. For more information, see:
http://www.irtc.org/anims/rules.html#anims

I'd stick with that format just in case you make something really incredible
and you want to submit it.

Also, if you're unemployed and looking for free stuff, I'd use UNIX and get
the netpbm library to build your MPEG file. It's a little tedious, but you
have very fine control over your frames. Most package installers (like rpm,
up2date, dselect, RPMDrake, etc. based on your flavor of Linux or UNIX)
include netpbm now. If you want to go to the website, go to:
http://netpbm.sourceforge.net

In my experience, if you're lazy (like me) and don't want to go get the more
obscure players, you'll find that RealPlayer works fairly well for MPEG-1
animations and Windows Media Player absolutely flatulates on it.

Hope this helps!

Post a reply to this message

> The IRTC accepts MPEG-1 files. For more information, see:
> http://www.irtc.org/anims/rules.html#anims
>
> I'd stick with that format just in case you make something really
> incredible and you want to submit it.

Ok... I'll stick with MPEG-1.  I see the link above says
"I", "P", and "B" frames are permitted.

Are those sub flavors of MPEG-1?  I don't know what that
means.

> Also, if you're unemployed and looking for free stuff, I'd use
> UNIX and get the netpbm library to build your MPEG file.

I'm running Windows ME.  I guess I should have said that first.
I'm not much of a UNIX person.

> It's a little tedious, but you have very fine control over your
> frames. Most package installers (like rpm, up2date,
> dselect, RPMDrake, etc. based on your flavor of Linux or
> UNIX) include netpbm now. If you want to go to the website,
> go to: http://netpbm.sourceforge.net

Most of that went over my head.  Package installers?  I think
I need a very beginner level FAQ before all that makes sense
to me but from the sound of what you said its just for UNIX.
I did take a look at the side and see something that looks to be
for windows:

Netpbm for Cygwin (Windows)

and

Netpbm for Windows using Mingw32 and GNU Bash.

But I don't know what Cygwin, Mingw32, or GNU Bash are.

> In my experience, if you're lazy (like me)

Yes... its a little that.  But right now its more the lack of
experience making animations.  I've simply never made one
before.  I'm sure I can learn.  I didn't know how to use
POV-Ray 4 months ago.

> and don't want to go get the more obscure players, you'll
> find that RealPlayer works fairly well for MPEG-1
> animations and Windows Media Player absolutely flatulates
> on it.

I don't think playing it should be a problem.  I've got several
players and I can view most of the stuff posted over in
povray.binaries.animations.

> Hope this helps!

I'm not sure.  If you are telling me I need UNIX than
probably not.  I was just wanting something I could
feed the POV-Ray frames into and have it spit out a
MPEG-1 file.  You've convinced me on the format
atleast.  I might want something that would allow me
to add sound at some point but I can live without that
for now.  Above you talk about "very fine control over
your frames".  What control is needed aside from
what order to put them in?  I'll be making the frames in
POV-Ray.

Thanks,
Carl

Post a reply to this message

I've had good luck with TGAUtils. You can turn any range of files into an
AVI file, with or without compression. You can also set the frame rate.
http://www.servletsource.com/Multimedia/Video/TGAutils-product-2178.htm

If you prefer to render your files as bitmaps (BMP), have a look at these
options:

http://www.newfreeware.com/search.php3?q=bmp+to+avi


best,
Dennis

"Carl Hoff" <hof### [at] wtnet> wrote in message
news:402d6ba7$1@news.povray.org...
> > The IRTC accepts MPEG-1 files. For more information, see:
> > http://www.irtc.org/anims/rules.html#anims
> >
> > I'd stick with that format just in case you make something really
> > incredible and you want to submit it.
>
> Ok... I'll stick with MPEG-1.  I see the link above says
> "I", "P", and "B" frames are permitted.
>
> Are those sub flavors of MPEG-1?  I don't know what that
> means.
>
> > Also, if you're unemployed and looking for free stuff, I'd use
> > UNIX and get the netpbm library to build your MPEG file.
>
> I'm running Windows ME.  I guess I should have said that first.
> I'm not much of a UNIX person.
>
> > It's a little tedious, but you have very fine control over your
> > frames. Most package installers (like rpm, up2date,
> > dselect, RPMDrake, etc. based on your flavor of Linux or
> > UNIX) include netpbm now. If you want to go to the website,
> > go to: http://netpbm.sourceforge.net
>
> Most of that went over my head.  Package installers?  I think
> I need a very beginner level FAQ before all that makes sense
> to me but from the sound of what you said its just for UNIX.
> I did take a look at the side and see something that looks to be
> for windows:
>
> Netpbm for Cygwin (Windows)
>
> and
>
> Netpbm for Windows using Mingw32 and GNU Bash.
>
> But I don't know what Cygwin, Mingw32, or GNU Bash are.
>
> > In my experience, if you're lazy (like me)
>
> Yes... its a little that.  But right now its more the lack of
> experience making animations.  I've simply never made one
> before.  I'm sure I can learn.  I didn't know how to use
> POV-Ray 4 months ago.
>
> > and don't want to go get the more obscure players, you'll
> > find that RealPlayer works fairly well for MPEG-1
> > animations and Windows Media Player absolutely flatulates
> > on it.
>
> I don't think playing it should be a problem.  I've got several
> players and I can view most of the stuff posted over in
> povray.binaries.animations.
>
> > Hope this helps!
>
> I'm not sure.  If you are telling me I need UNIX than
> probably not.  I was just wanting something I could
> feed the POV-Ray frames into and have it spit out a
> MPEG-1 file.  You've convinced me on the format
> atleast.  I might want something that would allow me
> to add sound at some point but I can live without that
> for now.  Above you talk about "very fine control over
> your frames".  What control is needed aside from
> what order to put them in?  I'll be making the frames in
> POV-Ray.
>
> Thanks,
> Carl
>
>

Post a reply to this message

Well, there are different opinions about what should be used and what not.
In my experience, Quicktime Movies and the far-spread MPEG Movies
(especially 1 and 2) are those that you're likely be able to spread to a
larger audience. RealPlayer, in my oppinion, is a pain in the b***. It seems
that it's useful for Streaming media, but that aside, I have yet to see a
good quality RealPlayer Movie.

Divx is spread as well, but, AFAIK, more in the geeks-sector so far. A
standard User doesn't have it, but it's easy to install. I absolutely hate
xvid, cause the last few times I checked it, it wasn't running consistantly
with the different versions floating in the web.

Scouring the web for short movies and such, it seems that Quicktime and
MPEG2 are the most favored types of encoding. For mpeg you could use
TMpegEnc, which is, IMHO, a really good, clean encoder and uses the standard
TGA-Files POV-Ray outputs, but can use other formats as well.

My 2 cents.

Regards,
Tim

-- 
"Tim Nikias v2.0"
Homepage: <http://www.nolights.de>
Email: tim.nikias (@) nolights.de

Post a reply to this message

"Carl Hoff" <hof### [at] wtnet> wrote in message
news:402d6ba7$1@news.povray.org...
> > The IRTC accepts MPEG-1 files. For more information, see:
> > http://www.irtc.org/anims/rules.html#anims
> >
> > I'd stick with that format just in case you make something really
> > incredible and you want to submit it.
>
> Ok... I'll stick with MPEG-1.  I see the link above says
> "I", "P", and "B" frames are permitted.
>
> Are those sub flavors of MPEG-1?  I don't know what that
> means.

Nope -- those are the type of frames that make up an MPEG movie. They are:

I: Intra-frame, which is like a "keyframe" that is a totally complete image
that other frames are "derived" from...
P: Predictive frame, which is the next frame after an I (or P) frame that
only contains the changes from the previous I or P frame to make up the next
frame (that's how it gets the great compression -- it doesn't store every
picture, it stores what changes from the last picture).
B: Bidirectional frame, which is like a P frame, except it contains
information about the frame before AND after. Useful for rewinding.

A standard movie goes like this:

IBBPBBPBBPBBPBBPBB... repeat this kind of pattern.

B frames have the least quality, P frames have better quality and, of
course, I frames a full quality. Interlacing the P frames and the B frames
gives you the compression. Another pattern that would give better results
(but with a higher file-size) is IBPBPBPBPB...

If you use ppmtompeg (and POV-ray outputs PPM files nicely for each frame),
and you set up your ini file with a sequence like that above, you can
precisely choose which kind of frame you want where. So, let's say you have
a movie and you know exactly what frame a new scene starts. You could choose
to make those "I" frames. For parts of the movie where there is a lot of
blur, you can choose to include a lot of B frames because you don't need the
quality. For the rest, you can choose P frames. It's a little daunting at
first, but once you get the hand of ppmtompeg, you won't want to use dem
more fancy tools. It's like using POV-ray, really; why settle for some
crappy interface when you can set yourself free by using your mind only?


> > Also, if you're unemployed and looking for free stuff, I'd use
> > UNIX and get the netpbm library to build your MPEG file.
>
> I'm running Windows ME.  I guess I should have said that first.
> I'm not much of a UNIX person.

Well, that's okay, actually; they make netpbm for Windows too. I also have
the Mingw32 C/C++ compiler on my Windows XP box and it works grand. I
haven't tried the netpbm library on Windows, though, so I can't give any
opinions on whether it is as stable as Linux.

But, heck, just wipe that Windows box clean and put Linux on it. :-) Windows
ME was the worst OS M$ ever made. XP is nice, though; no complaints about
XP.

> > It's a little tedious, but you have very fine control over your
> > frames. Most package installers (like rpm, up2date,
> > dselect, RPMDrake, etc. based on your flavor of Linux or
> > UNIX) include netpbm now. If you want to go to the website,
> > go to: http://netpbm.sourceforge.net
>
> Most of that went over my head.  Package installers?  I think
> I need a very beginner level FAQ before all that makes sense
> to me but from the sound of what you said its just for UNIX.
> I did take a look at the side and see something that looks to be
> for windows:

They're just programs that install it for you so you don't have to muck
around with all the settings and whatnot.

> Netpbm for Cygwin (Windows)
>
> and
>
> Netpbm for Windows using Mingw32 and GNU Bash.
>
> But I don't know what Cygwin, Mingw32, or GNU Bash are.

Mingw32 is a C/C++ compiler -- I guess they mean you have to compile it
yourself (but I wouldn't be surprised if you can find a binary for it).

GNU Bash -- Bash is a shell. Think a DOS window only with UNIX commands.
You probably need Bash because netpbm works based on redirecting stuff from
one program to another using a pipe named STDOUT. That is a bit more
difficult to describe, so I'll illustrate it:

cat file.pmm | pnmtopng > file.png
would convert a pmm file to png.

DOS can't do more than one level of redirection so you'll need a shell. This
is something you'll have to explore if you want to save $$$, but it's not as
bad as it looks.

> > In my experience, if you're lazy (like me)
>
> Yes... its a little that.  But right now its more the lack of
> experience making animations.  I've simply never made one
> before.  I'm sure I can learn.  I didn't know how to use
> POV-Ray 4 months ago.

Learning is the whole trip -- what makes it worth it. Computer Graphics is a
field that you can dive deep and swim long and maybe never learn everything.
It also has a lot of rewards!

> > and don't want to go get the more obscure players, you'll
> > find that RealPlayer works fairly well for MPEG-1
> > animations and Windows Media Player absolutely flatulates
> > on it.
>
> I don't think playing it should be a problem.  I've got several
> players and I can view most of the stuff posted over in
> povray.binaries.animations.

Cool -- hey, do you have a suggestion for a good one? I still use
RealPlayer, but it doesn't work on all of them (it often cuts out before the
movie is done). What do you recommend?

> > Hope this helps!

> I'm not sure.  If you are telling me I need UNIX than
> probably not.  I was just wanting something I could
> feed the POV-Ray frames into and have it spit out a
> MPEG-1 file.  You've convinced me on the format
> atleast.  I might want something that would allow me
> to add sound at some point but I can live without that
> for now.  Above you talk about "very fine control over
> your frames".  What control is needed aside from
> what order to put them in?  I'll be making the frames in
> POV-Ray.

If you want to add sound, you could consider building your movies in Flash.
It's cheap, $400 cheap though. As far as the control, see my babbling about
IBP frames -- you'll see. You can't get a good movie in under 10MB for the
competition without some compression (well, maybe you can, but it would be
rough).

It looks daunting now, but once you get into it, it will all click. Computer
Graphics, as you know from learning POV-Ray, is really a lot of very easy
concepts wrapped around highly technical terms to make the more insecure
computer scientists look smart, imho :-)

Post a reply to this message

> Cool -- hey, do you have a suggestion for a good one? I still use
> RealPlayer, but it doesn't work on all of them (it often cuts out before
> the movie is done). What do you recommend?

RealPlayer is what I have the best luck with most of the time.  There
are still a few posts I can't play but I think I can play better then 90%
of them.

Post a reply to this message

"Carl Hoff" <hof### [at] wtnet> wrote in message news:402ebbcb@news.povray.org...
> > Cool -- hey, do you have a suggestion for a good one? I still use
> > RealPlayer, but it doesn't work on all of them (it often cuts out before
> > the movie is done). What do you recommend?
>
> RealPlayer is what I have the best luck with most of the time.  There
> are still a few posts I can't play but I think I can play better then 90%
> of them.

Cool; I guess I made the right choice after all. If you find a better one,
promise me you'll tell us, okay? :-)

Post a reply to this message

Dan P <dan### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
> The IRTC accepts MPEG-1 files. For more information, see:
> http://www.irtc.org/anims/rules.html#anims

  The principle in the IRTC of accepting only MPEG-1 was made when
MPEG-1 was in practice the only video format supported by almost all
(multimedia-capable) computers out there and when newer MPEG formats
were rarely supported.

  This was many years ago. While I think it's still a very good idea
for the IRTC to stick to the MPEG-1 requirement, in other contexts
(such as povray.binaries.animations) I think that it has more and more
become ok to use a more modern MPEG version or variant (such as DivX).
Most systems nowadays support these newer codecs (Windows, Linux, MacOS,
even Solaris) and their advantage is that they can produce considerably
smaller files.
  The smaller you can get the file without losing too much quality,
the better.

  I would not recommend, however, using closed, proprietary formats
such as MS VMW, RealMedia or QuickTime MOV. People in different
system may have more difficulty in viewing those than plain MPEG-2
or MPEG-4 videos.
  Although DivX is more or less closed and properitary, I think it's
still better then those. VidX seems to be completely open and it has
a good quality.

  Of course if you want to go the easy and sure way, just use MPEG-1.
There's howevem choice about which program to use to create the video.
Not all programs create identical MPEG-1 videos, but some programs can
optimize it much better than others.
  Generally TMPEG is said to be an excellent cheap program for creating
good-quality MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 videos.

-- 
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<1,1,3>hollow}text{ttf"timrom""Warp".1,0translate<-1,-.1,2>}//  - Warp -

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