What kind of people use Povray? I keep hearing about this "certain
niche," but more specifically... I don't see many female users for
instance. Also, the program doesn't seem to be well suited for
Engineering, drafting, or even designing real-life objects. Now, I am
well aware that the ray tracer is just made to create images, but that's
the problem. Other programs may offer tension or elasticity analyses, or
offer  to work with materials with actual physical properties.
   I haven't heard of any company using POV-ray to design their bikes or
remote controls, like with Rhino. Povray is too difficult for, say,
architecture, since walkthroughs are a pain. The features include
cylinders, not pipes; "clipped_by," not "window." It seems that
everything you do, has to be done from scratch unless you look for
include files. Even for graphics, motion picture industries use
expensive programs like 3D Studio, and others simply use 2D programs
like Photoshop.
   So what does that leave us with? Artists who want total control over
the scene? Computer programmers who simply want to challenge themselves?
In other words, it seems to me that Povray has few practical
applications, but is more of a hobby, or even a teaching device for
understanding higher-level programs.

Post a reply to this message

Adam wrote:
> 
>    What kind of people use Povray?

I was going to give you a well thought out reply but I think, for me
anyway, it just boils down to one thing. I have FUN using the program.
It sure beats going out wasting my money trying to find entertainment
elsewhere. What kind of person am I ? Probably not a typical POV-Ray
user, I lack any form of formal education in computers or mathematics,
but with dogged persistence I produce some interesting imagery despite
myself and that is all I really care about.

-- 
Ken Tyler - 1400+ POV-Ray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:41:12 -0700, Adam <bel### [at] yahoocom> wrote:

>   What kind of people use Povray? I keep hearing about this "certain
>niche," but more specifically... I don't see many female users for
>instance. Also, the program doesn't seem to be well suited for
>Engineering, drafting, or even designing real-life objects. Now, I am
>well aware that the ray tracer is just made to create images, but that's
>the problem. Other programs may offer tension or elasticity analyses, or
>offer  to work with materials with actual physical properties.
>   I haven't heard of any company using POV-ray to design their bikes or
>remote controls, like with Rhino. Povray is too difficult for, say,
>architecture, since walkthroughs are a pain. The features include
>cylinders, not pipes; "clipped_by," not "window." It seems that
>everything you do, has to be done from scratch unless you look for
>include files. Even for graphics, motion picture industries use
>expensive programs like 3D Studio, and others simply use 2D programs
>like Photoshop.
>   So what does that leave us with? Artists who want total control over
>the scene? Computer programmers who simply want to challenge themselves?
>In other words, it seems to me that Povray has few practical
>applications, but is more of a hobby, or even a teaching device for
>understanding higher-level programs.

Why should it have practical applications?  Povray exists.  It has an
enthusiastic following, the people who create the source do it for free, the
people who use it do it because they get pleasure out of it.  No other
justification is necessary. (I will let our female users speak for themselves:-)

I like Povray because it is honest. You get a 3D model that is as good as your
skill with the program allows. The fact that you can view your image from
different viewpoints distinguishes it from programs that use the projection of
images or 2D painting to achieve their 3D effects.  And I like the idea of a
text based modeller.  Of course it's not easy to get what you want out of it,
but you always have that feeling that Povray has the capabilities and it's you
that has the limitations.

Povray is the ideal international co-operative venture.  We have a host of
clever people around the world trying out different ideas, looking at commercial
and academic developments and trying to incorporate all the best ideas, as well
as coming up with innovative solutions. It is truly a worldwide phenomenon -
even though we have different languages we can all appreciate a good Povray
rendered image and the code that has gone to produce it.

We have Povray artists who are extremely talented and their images are getting
better all the time.  Perhaps Povray will be the 21st century's contribution to
pictorial art - who knows :-)
David
dav### [at] hamiltonitecom
http://hamiltonite.com/

Post a reply to this message

I think it's worth mentioning here that most of those people using
professional commercial software, like 3DSMax, got their start
with something like POV-Ray.  You don't just go out and plunk
down a few thousand dollars on something like that without
getting your feet wet first.  POV-Ray, while not being as widely
used in the commercial and engineering areas, does have one
excellent benefit: it's free.  And because of this, many more people
are introduced to raytracing.

--
Doug Eichenberg
http://www.nls.net/douge
dou### [at] nlsnet

Post a reply to this message

"David Wilkinson" <dav### [at] blueyondercouk> wrote in message

<Snip>

It is truly a worldwide phenomenon -
> even though we have different languages we can all appreciate a good
Povray
> rendered image and the code that has gone to produce it.
>


> David
> dav### [at] hamiltonitecom
> http://hamiltonite.com/


     Although new to this David, I understand and agree with what you are
saying.  It's a media that can truly be played with, and experimented with,
for all to see and divulge. I am in awe at the images that Fabian Brau has
produced, ( ref: Vases, in .images)
     Even if I don't get to where I want to go with this, I will still be
able to come back here and have a look at the fascinating sites before me.
                                      ~Steve~

Post a reply to this message

So, it seems that we agree that Povray is a good free program. It's
always good to see exactly what you're doing and to be able to experiment.
Such is the design. The question is, what are people doing with it?
Apparently, my hunch has been correct. People that use the program are
artists--or at least that's what they call themselves--who like the idea of
creating seemingly photorealistic if not surrealistic scenes. People also
use the program to acquaint themselves with ray tracing and to "have fun"
from successfully completing "projects," or even from competing in IRTC.
   What surprises me is the ammount of extra knowledge these artists must
obtain: both computer knowledge--for editing INI files for example--and
mathematical knowledge--for working with normalized time in animations, just
to create a picture.
   Then, let me put it this way. Does anyone make good money using Povray.
I'm talking computer art expos, product design teams, architects, city
planning, anything of the sort. I haven't heard anyone say a thing about the
usefullness of Povray. People have been talking of it as if it were a sport,
not a tool. You have fun, exercise your mind, get your feet wet, join an
international phenomenon, etc. That's something you say about scooters or
Pokemon, not a screwdriver or a calculator.

Post a reply to this message

>    Then, let me put it this way. Does anyone make good money using Povray.

As far as I know, nobody is making any money using POV-Ray.  The people who
write it distribute it freely, so they're not making anything off of it; the
people who use it are largely hobbyists, so they're probably not making
anything either.  By and large it's a 'labor of love.'  People do it for
fun.

--
Doug Eichenberg
http://www.nls.net/douge
dou### [at] nlsnet

Post a reply to this message

it looks like most answers to this post have been general in nature when
i think you were really wanting personal answers as to what we
personally do with pov, and a little background info about ourselves. 
am i wrong?  some answers can be found at the new povusers.org (or is it
povrayusers.org?) where many users have posted information about
themselves (not me YET).  

as for myself, the reason i started using povray is a long story i will
try to make short.  basically, i'm good at everything i try to do and
have an interest in literally everything.  my brother on the other hand
isn't good at much and always felt he was in my shadow.  he took up
art.  i did too.  my parents asked me to stop.  i complied.  15 years
later, my brother is in a tech school for computer networking (not art)
and i'm at university for electrical engineering (which i love). 
however, i always wished i had pursued art because the little i was able
to do was very good.  with years spent in mathematics and technical
courses (and with a love for computers) however, i decided that computer
graphics is the best hope i have for an artistic outlet.  i started with
paint shop pro, then found terragen, then povray.  i started this year
and love it.  i quickly found that model making comes easy to me, but as
h.e. day was oh so quick to point out, my texturing 'needs work'
(sucks).  so lately, i've been spending a little time modelling and a
lot of time reading everything i can about procedural textures.  i hope
to someday conquer texures and make realistic images in povray.  my goal
is realism in images, but i must say that some of the more abstract and
stylized images other povers make are incredible and often beautiful. 
these folks in this community are a constant inspiration to me.

as far as i know, povray isn't that useful commercially.  quality images
take too darn long to make for commercial purposes unless one has a lot
of preconstructed models laying around.  i have heard, however of people
using other tools to develop a scene and then using povray as the final
renderer.  i don't know how much of that goes around.  you are right
about extra math or computer knowledge being a must.  but there are a
lot of macros and includes already constructed that less technical folfs
can use and also modellers like moray (the one i mainly use), povlab,
and spatch.

Adam wrote:
> 
>    So, it seems that we agree that Povray is a good free program. It's
> always good to see exactly what you're doing and to be able to experiment.
> Such is the design. The question is, what are people doing with it?
> Apparently, my hunch has been correct. People that use the program are
> artists--or at least that's what they call themselves--who like the idea of
> creating seemingly photorealistic if not surrealistic scenes. People also
> use the program to acquaint themselves with ray tracing and to "have fun"
> from successfully completing "projects," or even from competing in IRTC.
>    What surprises me is the ammount of extra knowledge these artists must
> obtain: both computer knowledge--for editing INI files for example--and
> mathematical knowledge--for working with normalized time in animations, just
> to create a picture.
>    Then, let me put it this way. Does anyone make good money using Povray.
> I'm talking computer art expos, product design teams, architects, city
> planning, anything of the sort. I haven't heard anyone say a thing about the
> usefullness of Povray. People have been talking of it as if it were a sport,
> not a tool. You have fun, exercise your mind, get your feet wet, join an
> international phenomenon, etc. That's something you say about scooters or
> Pokemon, not a screwdriver or a calculator.

Post a reply to this message

Adam <bel### [at] yahoocom> wrote...

> Apparently, my hunch has been correct. People that use the program are
> artists--or at least that's what they call themselves--

So, in your opinion, what makes a person an artist?  My opinion is that if a
person attempts to be an artist, that simple step means they have succeeded
in their attempt.  (They may not be a great artist, but they are still an
artist.)

>    Then, let me put it this way. Does anyone make good money using Povray.

The fact is that it takes more time to generate an image with POV than with
most commercial tools.  With POV, if you put in a little work, you get poor
results.  If you put in a lot of work, you get excellent results.  With
commercial software, you still have to put in a lot of work to get excellent
results, but if you only put in a little work, the results generally look
acceptable.  For most businesses, which are all about getting things done
quickly, such results are considered "good enough."

If someone is making "good money" creating excellent computer graphics, then
they will probably spend a chunk of that money on a product that has a
larger team of developers (who are motivated by money), a tech-support phone
number, and many cool user-interface features which make life easier.
Because POV lacks these things, it is generally not chosen for commercial
work.

> People have been talking of it as if it were a sport,
> not a tool. You have fun, exercise your mind, get your feet wet, join an
> international phenomenon, etc. That's something you say about scooters or
> Pokemon, not a screwdriver or a calculator.

Yes, it might be better (at this point) to compare POV to a sport as opposed
to a tool.

I have a vision to help build POV into a tool that can be used for
commercial applications, but that will not likely be realized for at least a
few more years.

I should point out that I have used POV-Ray to generate graphics for my job.
However, all that work has been fairly minor, since my primary work is not
as a graphic artist.

-Nathan

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I'm sick of people saying povray sucks just because it haven't got a built
in modeller.
It seems like a lot of people thinks povray is useless just because it's
freeware.

POV-Ray is for the perfectionist, the real artist!
An artist is not one who piracy 3dsmax or lightwave and then says povray is
useless.

--
Peter
http://hertel.no/bigone

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First off, I know of two FEMALE friends of mine that do use Povray...they
don't post anything on here yet, but they do read and are actually quite
good, well at least better than I am. I'm still learning.
   The person that first introduced me to Povray, was still using the dos
version, created stunning images and had them printed out poster size and
sold them as ART. I don't know if he still is or not.
  The point is Povray may be freeware and may not have all the fancy
features of the expensive ones, but if you know what your doing, you can
make images as good as, if not in some cases better than the others.

Post a reply to this message

Because you asked I'll answer that I do.
Time and again people wonder about all this about the kind of people using
POV-Ray Trace.
I have noticed a lot of the people are interested in programming which
simply makes sense if you think about it.  Those that program the program
and those that program IN the program.  Others that somehow claim to have no
abilities of any kind and yet still manage to render out a fine example of
ray tracing.  And so on and so forth.
As for myself, I was always interested in drawing, then the computer came
along (yes, I'm pre-PC age).  I never understood people using computers for
word processing as much as I can understand why for graphics related things.
Early on I was having fun with Basic and getting pixels to draw on the
monitor in simulated 3D ways.  That's what really got me going on the 3D CG
idea.
Also, like many others with limited budgets, I too found POV-Ray to be the
ultimate answer.  After a few encounters with other programs of course;
Generic CAD and 3D Design were two (years ago) of them.  POV-Ray has been
something I followed as it grew and it just fits me like a glove pretty
much.  GUI with the wireframes and all are not something I can handle with
much skill so it has been all the better to have been using POV-Ray.
I can only guess that there are a large number of people similar to me in
this respect.  Then there are those that can apparently control scene files
in a modeler and hand it over to POV-Ray to trace.
One of the most obvious things that holds me captive then is the code to
image concept.  But I believe "niche" would never be the word for it since
it's almost a cult following in many ways.  That could be said of many 3D
programs though.
Okay, so there is my answer in a giant nutshell.

Bob

Post a reply to this message

Adam wrote:

>    What kind of people use Povray? I keep hearing about this "certain
> niche," but more specifically...

In addition to what other people said, there are non-hobby applications of
Povray, usually in the education area. I've seen it being used for teaching
math, chemistry, architecture, physics and biology, for instance. Two
examples among many others :
http://ampere.scale.uiuc.edu/~m-lexa/cell/cell.html
http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/~andrbh/raytrace/raytrace.html

Povray is also used is by people who have to make technical 3D images in
sectors where 3D professional renderers are unknown.

About commercial use, it's certainly not competitive due to the long
development process, however a few of us sell images to art patrons,
galleries, or companies. As a matter a fact, I just finished a book cover
for a scientific editor.

G.

Post a reply to this message

I use POV-Ray because it's so much fun.  It's like a massive set of Lego,
Macarno, and plastercein (sp?) all rolled into one, with a bunch of industrial
grade lighting systems thrown in for good measure.  I like art and beautiful
images but can't draw to save my life, so for me POV is a gift from 
the gods, simple enough for me to understand and complicated enough to hold
my interest forever, it seems that POV grows with me. 

-- 
Cheers
Steve              email mailto:ste### [at] zeroppsuklinuxnet

%HAV-A-NICEDAY Error not enough coffee  0 pps. 

web http://www.zeropps.uklinux.net/

or  http://start.at/zero-pps

  2:30am  up 27 days, 56 min,  2 users,  load average: 1.00, 1.00, 1.11

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On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:41:12 -0700, Adam <bel### [at] yahoocom> wrote:

>   What kind of people use Povray? 

Basically all kinds of people -- students, parents, artists, engineer
programmers... I haven't noticed a trend in that regard.

>I keep hearing about this "certain niche," but more specifically... 

That niche is, IMHO, defined by a) the cost-quality ratio, b) the
approach, c) the quality of peer and developer support and d) the
challenge

>I don't see many female users for instance. 

It doesn't take many flowers to have a lovely garden.

>Also, the program doesn't seem to be well suited for
>Engineering, drafting, or even designing real-life objects. 

A lot of people model real-life objects in POV. I for one have
modelled some home appliances like a washer and a fridge, to name a
couple. I recall reading a post by a professional product designer who
used POV to model and render his designs (the post featured an
espresso machine IIRC).

>Now, I am well aware that the ray tracer is just made to create 
>images, but that's the problem. Other programs may offer tension or 
>elasticity analyses, or offer  to work with materials with actual 
>physical properties.

POV is not ProEngineer. If it were, I would have never used it because
of the price tag (compared to which Max 3.0 is given away for free).
On the other hand, there are some real-life engineering uses for it.
For example, my brother wrote a program for controlling a machine for
making Fresnel lens. I then used photon mapped caustics to test the
lens, saving thousands of dollars for real-life testing. (And I was
stupid enough not to claim a chunk of this saved money but that's
another story)

>   I haven't heard of any company using POV-ray to design their bikes or
>remote controls, like with Rhino. 

LOL my bike surely looks like it was modelled in Rhino, there's not an
inch of a straight line in it :)

But read above :)

>Povray is too difficult for, say, architecture, since walkthroughs 
>are a pain. 

For design, maybe, but have you thought about lighting? I have a
friend who is an undergraduate in Architecture and we will be doing a
project together, she will do the modelling in ArchiCAD (or AutoCAD)
and I will render it in MegaPOV with radiosity, caustics (for the
pool) and whatnot.

>The features include cylinders, not pipes; "clipped_by," not "window." 
>It seems that everything you do, has to be done from scratch unless 
>you look for include files. 

Well, the legs of my tables are cylinders, not pipes. And the
ventilation holes on my PC case are certainly not windows. What do you
think is better, providing an easy-to-use but limited specific
solution or a somewhat more complex yet much more powerful general
approach?

>Even for graphics, motion picture industries use expensive programs 
>like 3D Studio, and others simply use 2D programs like Photoshop.

Yes but they invest money to make big money. I am certain POV could
get to MAX's level if the POV Team were as big, as well paid and as
well supplied as the MAX development team. But then again, POV would
cost as much as MAX which I would not like at all.

The more you invest, the faster you will work. Commercial products
make the life of the artist easy, so an artist doesn't have to be a
techie, too, or learn programming or anything. I knew a girl who did
wonders in PaintBrush for Windows 3.1 (yeah, in 16 colors!) Imagine
what happened when she finally got Painter. 

>   So what does that leave us with? Artists who want total control over
>the scene? Computer programmers who simply want to challenge themselves?

One word: enthusiasts :)

>In other words, it seems to me that Povray has few practical
>applications, but is more of a hobby, or even a teaching device for
>understanding higher-level programs.

This is quite true, but bear in mind, 'few' is not 'none' :) . The
program is there and it's there for good, what you are able to do with
it is your own business. Some people use it to illustrate the books
they write. Others use it for modelling real-life objects and/or
scenes for one reason or the other. Then there are those who use it to
supplemnent the graphics work they do in professional packages. But
mostly, we're doing it for fun.


Peter Popov ICQ : 15002700
Personal e-mail : pet### [at] usanet
TAG      e-mail : pet### [at] tagpovrayorg

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On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:26:51 -0700, Adam <bel### [at] yahoocom> wrote:

>   Then, let me put it this way. Does anyone make good money using Povray.

I've never directly sold a POV picture (animated GIFs are, well,
anims) but I use POV in my web design work. I've rendered some home
appliances for the products section of a home appliances site. I've
used POV a lot to render buttons, animated logos, 3D toolbars and the
like. I know of at least two other people visiting these groups that
can relate.

I also often use it to set up the basic light interraction in a scene
and then paint over that in PhotoShop, keeping the lighting realistic.
An example is the gallery section of a site I am doing (my own,
actually :)) ) where I use MegaPOV's radiosity to render a room with
three picture frames and then use PhotoShop to put the pictures in
there, and the lighting remains intact.

>I'm talking computer art expos, product design teams, architects, city
>planning, anything of the sort. 

I placed fourth in ComputerSpace '97, an international computer arts
compo held in Sofia. The picture I submitted was featured some POV
output collaged and post-processed and painted over in PhotoShop.

As of architecture, POV is not the best tool to model a building but
it can certainly render it better than AutoCAD or ArchiCAD. I guess
only Radiance in this price range could do better.

>I haven't heard anyone say a thing about the usefullness of Povray. 

Had enough? :))

>People have been talking of it as if it were a sport, not a tool. 

Mostly, but not exclusively. It has its uses.

>You have fun, exercise your mind, get your feet wet, join an
>international phenomenon, etc. That's something you say about scooters or
>Pokemon, not a screwdriver or a calculator.

That's the best part with computers. You can use them as calculators,
or for Pokemon (whatever *that* is), or for driving scooters (with a
good 3D card and surround sound :) ) ... you can even use a
screwdriver on them <grin>

So the bottom line is, POV can do a lot, it's up to the user to
choose.


Peter Popov ICQ : 15002700
Personal e-mail : pet### [at] usanet
TAG      e-mail : pet### [at] tagpovrayorg

Post a reply to this message

Adam <bel### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
:    So what does that leave us with?

  1) It's free. That can't be said of most "higher-level" programs.

  2) The quality is good. The lack of a modeller is only a little annoyance
     (you can't use a 3rd party modeller anyways).

  3) The scripting language is powerful. Only few other renderers have a
     similar one.

-- 
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):_;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/

Post a reply to this message

Adam wrote:
> 
>    So, it seems that we agree that Povray is a good free program. It's
> always good to see exactly what you're doing and to be able to
> experiment.  Such is the design. The question is, what are people\
> doing with it?

POV-Ray is an excellent tool for testing one's knowledge of trig and
analytical geometry.  Without a modeler, a firm grasp of AG is
essential in achieving the broadest variety of scenery.

Regards,
John

Post a reply to this message

I've noticed most of the commercial artists are using acrylics and
gouache.  So who uses oil paints? These so-called 'artists'?  Oil paints
take so much longer, and you need to learn how to clean the brushes.

I hope you see my point.

-Mark Gordon

Post a reply to this message

Adam wrote:

>    So what does that leave us with? Artists who want total control over
> the scene? Computer programmers who simply want to challenge themselves?
> In other words, it seems to me that Povray has few practical
> applications, but is more of a hobby, or even a teaching device for
> understanding higher-level programs.

POV-Ray isn't much different from other ray tracers in this regard, so
I'm going to give some examples of use of other ray tracers in my
answers.

Granted, I've not heard of POV-Ray being used in the film industry or in
serious engineering applications.  Ray tracers (BMRT in particular) have
been used from time to time in the film industry (by Pixar), but quite
seldom (only a couple of shots).  I have seen ray tracers (though not
POV-Ray, and the one I'm thinking of is actually a photon-mapping
implementation, so more like MegaPov than POV-Ray) being used in
architecture.  I think ray tracing might be used for car ads once in a
while, since the reflection off car paint is hard to fake, but I don't
think they were using POV-Ray for that (something with NURBS support,
probably).

POV-Ray is certainly used by artists and hobbyists.  It can also be used
by students, since it introduces many of the major concepts in 3D
graphics.  Unlike BMRT, there isn't a commercial application built on
the same scene description language, so it's not so directly useful to
students, who often migrate from BMRT to PRMan.

FWIW, I've found that ray tracers are often written by students as an
exercise.  I'm not sure how many students over the years have gotten
credit for code that they eventually contributed to POV-Ray.

Based on support requests I've gotten (from NASA, med schools, chemistry
departments, etc.) there are some applications to scientific
visualization.  Ray tracing does a lovely job of making pictures of
spheres, and it's popular among many chemists for rendering high-quality
molecular model images.  I've seen it used to generate an animation
showing an asteroid moving in an unusual orbit.  It's sometimes used in
the computer industry in research (mostly in parallel processing) and
sales (look how fast our cluster renders skyvase.pov).

-Mark Gordon

Post a reply to this message

Adam wrote:

> Then, let me put it this way. Does anyone make good money using
> Povray. 
>I'm talking computer art expos, product design teams, architects, city
>planning, anything of the sort. I haven't heard anyone say a thing
>about the usefullness of Povray.

Remco de Korte uses it for educational purposes,
http://www.xs4all.nl/~remcodek/pov.html


Ingo

-- 
Photography: http://members.home.nl/ingoogni/
Pov-Ray    : http://members.home.nl/seed7/

Post a reply to this message

In article <3993E47A.D758ADC2@erols.com>, John VanSickle 
<van### [at] erolscom> wrote:

> POV-Ray is an excellent tool for testing one's knowledge of trig and
> analytical geometry.  Without a modeler, a firm grasp of AG is
> essential in achieving the broadest variety of scenery.

Not essential...for example, I haven't taken either of them yet.(I will 
be taking Analytical Geometry and Trigonometry this year.)
However, I do expect to have an easier time with those subjects because 
of my experience with POV-Ray.

-- 
Christopher James Huff - Personal e-mail: chr### [at] maccom
TAG(Technical Assistance Group) e-mail: chr### [at] tagpovrayorg
Personal Web page: http://homepage.mac.com/chrishuff/
TAG Web page: http://tag.povray.org/

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It is truly a privelege to hear from Nathan Kopp, the creator of MegaPov. One
thing you may have misinterpreted is what I said about artists. When I added,
"at least that's what they call themselves," I wasn't implying that they're not
artsts but think they are. On the contrary, I see them as artists, and even they
consider themselves as artists. Oh, and to me, artists are those who make images
for non-commersial purposes (such as advertisement), for non-competitive
purposes, for non-utilitarian purposes, for non-educational purposes, but more
for the sake of creating. Pardon if I missed something.
  But I would like to see an already powerful program lie Povray be more
"user-friendly," so to speak. By the way, I never really used 3D Studio Max, so
I don't know whether it has a text editor. I find it hard to believe that it
does not offer one.

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I bet if a friend of mine was reading your response, he would have thought I
wrote it. I myself am a mechanical engineer turned electrical, but I'm fond of
computer science. I used to do some art also, ceramics of all things. I have a
long mathematical background, especially in multivariable Calculus and with
engineering, a lot of differential equations and linear algebra. Not too much
analytical geometry though.
   I'm also interested in everything, so it's hard for me to find a hobby. I have
these temporary obsessions. It used to be, I was really into assembly programming
for graphing calculators. Then, it was bicycling, and so on. I also strive to be
the best at what I do, and to do my best. The only difference is that I'm the
younger brother, and I'm the one who's following in someone's footsteps.

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"Peter Popov" <pet### [at] usanet> wrote in message
news:pge7pss8f9bg68jgk0p60ie0d359q13gl8@4ax.com...
> That's the best part with computers. You can use them as calculators,
> or for Pokemon (whatever *that* is), or for driving scooters (with a
> good 3D card and surround sound :) ) ... you can even use a
> screwdriver on them <grin>

Yes, you can take apart the Pokémon GameBoy cartridge if your little nephew
gets his hands on it and you find that when you try it in your GameBoy, you
don't get any results, and believe me, I've had to do this before :-(

Finally, his parents just bought me a new one after they seen him "playing"
with it (and after I've taken it apart several times to wiggle things apart)

-Ian

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"Warp" <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote in message
news:3993d6df@news.povray.org...
>   2) The quality is good. The lack of a modeller is only a little
annoyance
>      (you can't use a 3rd party modeller anyways).
                ^^^^

Uhh...

-Ian

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Adam wrote:

> In other words, it seems to me that Povray has few practical
> applications,

I've never made much money  from my paintings either.  (Though enough to
raise my father-in-law's eyebows)  Furthermore, they've been paying me good
money for a decade or two to write business programs, and as far as I can
determine, I haven't done one worth the money yet.  Raytracing is for
depiction. It appeals to anyone who likes to observe the world. Staying
close to the code is to stay close to the world.

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Adam wrote:

> In other words, it seems to me that Povray has few practical
> applications.

I've never made much money  from my paintings either.  (Though enough to
raise my father-in-law's eyebrows). And further, they've been paying me good
money for a decade or more to write business programs, and as far as I can
determine, I haven't done one worth the money yet.  Povray is for depiction.
It appeals to anyone who like to observe the world.  To staying close to the
code is to stay close to the world.

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Adam wrote:
> "user-friendly," so to speak. By the way, I never really used 3D Studio Max, so
> I don't know whether it has a text editor. I find it hard to believe that it
> does not offer one.

It has a scripting feature but it is by no means reliant upon one such
as POV-Ray is.

-- 
Ken Tyler - 1400+ POV-Ray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/

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Ian Burgmyer <the### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
:>      (you can't use a 3rd party modeller anyways).

: Uhh...

  Ooops... I meant that you can, of course :)

-- 
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):_;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/

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Adam wrote:
> 
>    What kind of people use Povray? I keep hearing about this "certain
> niche," but more specifically... I don't see many female users for
> instance.

Users are hobbyists, mainly. But there are many ways to use POV, and many kinds
of users: programmers, artists, engineers, mathematicians etc. While many users
participate in these newsgroups, many more do not. Three of my friends (one of
them female) use POV fairly frequently. I have of course told them about the
newsgroups, but they still prefer bothering me over the phone.

> Also, the program doesn't seem to be well suited for
> Engineering, drafting, or even designing real-life objects.

This cannot be stressed enough: the task of POV is to render a picutre. Those
things you describe are jobs for a modelling program like Rhino, who create the
input for renderers like POV.

>    So what does that leave us with? Artists who want total control over
> the scene? Computer programmers who simply want to challenge themselves?

I'd say POV works best for someone who has both artistic talent and programming
skill. The programmatic constructs POV can produce are not possible with most
other 3D packages.

-- 
Margus Ramst

Personal e-mail: mar### [at] peakeduee
TAG (Team Assistance Group) e-mail: mar### [at] tagpovrayorg

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Adam wrote:
> 
>    Then, let me put it this way. Does anyone make good money using Povray.

How much money is good? I've done some POV stuff for paying customers. Brochure
covers, a few presentational videos, that sort of thing. Not nearly enough to
make a living. The customer is impressed with sample images - until we come to
deadlines. Then suddenly Archicad renders are good again!

-- 
Margus Ramst

Personal e-mail: mar### [at] peakeduee
TAG (Team Assistance Group) e-mail: mar### [at] tagpovrayorg

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Dear Adam and Folks,

Adam wrote:
>    What kind of people use Povray?...
[snip]

This is the most interesting, non-techical POV question in a long time.

I consider myself to be an artist.  I've been drawing with pen-and-ink,
ball points, felt tips, pencils since I was able to hold them.  In high
school I practiced with oils, acrylics, chalks, water paints, etc.  I
would rate myself (IMHO) a B+/A- artist.  But I'm also lazy.  I can
visualize a scene or admire someone else's work and I know I could do
that or better, but quality work requires lots of time.  So my work over
the years has been spotty.  And I'm also poor, I could never afford all
the materials needed.  The free nature of the POV program is a deffinite
plus.

In college I studied programming and discovered various graphics and
drawing programs.  Here was a partial solution to my personal
weaknesses: let the computer do all the detail work, coloring (i.e.
texturing), perspectives, lighting. Then I can concentrate on
composition and content.  POV was a gift from the Gods of Programming:
software that requires detailed planning and organizing and then
produces excellent quality images.

I use POV for fun, for artistic satisfaction, for personal
gratification.  My obsessive/compulsive personality delights in writing
detailed source code with extensive comments, all percisely indented,
aligned, and annotated.  My creative imagination is satisfied by making
visions come to life in almost-perfect realism.  My male need to belong
to a group of like-minded and like-talented people is gratified by being
part of the international POV community.

Thanx for starting this interesting discussion.

Blessings, 
           Brendan

-- 
Michael Brendan Hurley
POV: http://www.geocities.com/mbrendanh/
FAMILY: http://www.saber.net/~mbhcgc/
mbh### [at] sabernet

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>
>   Ooops... I meant that you can, of course :)

Don't worry, I think we figured it out ourselves already.

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I use POV-Ray extensively for visualization (stills and animations) of real
properties (not to be confused with viewing ball and stick models or blob
models) of atomic and molecular systems calculated from Quantum Mechanics
and Statistical Mechanics.

This visualization capability provides detailed, and sometimes unique,
insights into the properties of chemical and physical systems under both
static and dynamic (i.e. chemical reaction, heat transfer, etc) conditions.

Check out the Research portion of my web site at for some examples:

www.kressworks.com

Then, of course, I also use POV-Ray for rendering artistic scenes.  See the
Art section of my site for some examples.

Jim

"Adam" <bel### [at] yahoocom> wrote in message
news:39932178.CDA2C50F@yahoo.com...
>    What kind of people use Povray? I keep hearing about this "certain
> niche," but more specifically... I don't see many female users for
> instance. Also, the program doesn't seem to be well suited for
> Engineering, drafting, or even designing real-life objects. Now, I am
> well aware that the ray tracer is just made to create images, but that's
> the problem. Other programs may offer tension or elasticity analyses, or
> offer  to work with materials with actual physical properties.
>    I haven't heard of any company using POV-ray to design their bikes or
> remote controls, like with Rhino. Povray is too difficult for, say,
> architecture, since walkthroughs are a pain. The features include
> cylinders, not pipes; "clipped_by," not "window." It seems that
> everything you do, has to be done from scratch unless you look for
> include files. Even for graphics, motion picture industries use
> expensive programs like 3D Studio, and others simply use 2D programs
> like Photoshop.
>    So what does that leave us with? Artists who want total control over
> the scene? Computer programmers who simply want to challenge themselves?
> In other words, it seems to me that Povray has few practical
> applications, but is more of a hobby, or even a teaching device for
> understanding higher-level programs.
>

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