Okay, google doesn't seem to be able to give me any clear advice on this 
one, so I'll ask you guys:

I just bought an 64-bit AMD Turion based laptop, which irritatingly has 
32-bit windows installed, so I'm thinking about doing a dual-boot with linux 
and using the 64-bit version of pov. I've already run a 32-bit test and my 
laptop's almost as fast as my desktop machine, so I assume it will be faster 
in 64-bit. Anyway what I want to know is this:

1/ what version of linux should I get?
2/ how much better is 64-bit pov compared to 32-bit on the same system? 
(i.e. is it worth the effort?)

Now I realise there's no straight answer to question 1 but I'm getting SO 
annoyed with linux users! Whenever I ask one of the guys at work they always 
name about a dozen versions of linux I should try. It's an OS! I don't want 
to try it, I just want to install one and use it! I'm not scared of having 
to use a command prompt (I use linux remotely from a windows PC at work 
sometimes so I know my way around), I just want someone to tell me what the 
difference is between them.

Can all versions of linux run povray? Can they all run the same programs, 
and if not why not? Do different ones run pov at different speeds? Are there 
special 64-bit versions of linux (like windows) or is it just exposed in a 
more implicit way?

BTW, I've just started using emacs at work, so don't worry about suggesting 
a version of linux that's friendly for windows users, I can handle a steep 
learning curve (I'm going to regret saying that!).

Please help me!

Thanks
-- 
Tek
http://evilsuperbrain.com

Post a reply to this message

Hi Tek:

   I'm sorry, but my answer to 1) should be similar to those you usually
get from these annoying linux users... :) But I think that the effect on
the overall rendering speed shouldn't be noticeable: the  difference
between distros is more about the apps they include and how they are
organized, etc... in that regard, my preferred ones are Fedora and
Ubuntu, but that's very personal. And, IMHO, the "is just an OS"
thinking is not correct: the OS is the main software on your computer,
and you should be very careful choosing it.

   About 2), I don't really know if the official binary is 32 or 64
bits, as I always compile the sources for my own platform. The effort is
so minimal that any advantage is worth. I mean, compiling your own
version for you specific platform is very easy on Linux, and it should
take only a few minutes more than installing the official binary (just
make sure to install the development tools of your Linux distro).

   Regards...

--
Jaime

Post a reply to this message

Tek <tek### [at] evilsuperbraincom> wrote:
> I just bought an 64-bit AMD Turion based laptop, which irritatingly has 
> 32-bit windows installed

  Don't you hate that? All those resources gone to waste...

  (Of course one reason for that is that MS has still not published a
good, stable and well-tested 64-bit version of Windows...)

  I don't actually remember if you can upgrade Windows to 64-bit for
free. You should consult microsoft.com.

> 2/ how much better is 64-bit pov compared to 32-bit on the same system? 
> (i.e. is it worth the effort?)

  Unlike many other 32/64-bit systems (such as UltraSparc and Macintosh),
in the AMD 64-bit systems there's an actual speed advantage in running
(optimized) 64-bit binaries compared to 32-bit binaries. This is because
in 64-bit mode the CPU provides more resources for the program to use
for speed (most importantly, more registers).
  If you run a 64-bit binary of POV-Ray in an AMD64 processor, you will
most probably get a rendering speed increase compared to the 32-bit binary
in the same system. (Of course this assumes that the 64-bit binary has been
*optimized* for the 64-bit architecture. That depends on the compiler used.)

  Naturally other advantages (not to be taken lightly) include more usable
memory (no 4GB limit anymore) and possibility of using larger files.

> Now I realise there's no straight answer to question 1 but I'm getting SO 
> annoyed with linux users! Whenever I ask one of the guys at work they always 
> name about a dozen versions of linux I should try. It's an OS! I don't want 
> to try it, I just want to install one and use it!

  I don't have too much experience about different linux distros, but in
your case I would recommend Suse. It has a superb support for hardware
(it was actually the only distro which would work correctly in my more
or less exotic system) and it's easy to use (you can usually use its
package manager yast2, which is quite easy to use, for almost everything).

  All in all, especially if you don't have too new too exotic hardware,
it usually doesn't matter too much which distro you use. I personally
have good experiences about Suse, but you can choose whatever you like.

> Can all versions of linux run povray?

  I can't imagine why they couldn't. Can you?

> Can they all run the same programs, 
> and if not why not?

  I can't think of any reason why they couldn't. The kernel is identical
in all of them and the system tools are the same. The only difference may
be in the default amount of installed libraries, but most distros come
with an easy-to-use package manager which can be used to easily install
(almost) any library which you need.

> Do different ones run pov at different speeds?

  Why would they? The kernel is the same for all of them.

> Are there 
> special 64-bit versions of linux (like windows) or is it just exposed in a 
> more implicit way?

  I assume that most linux distros will detect your system and install the
proper versions of the kernel and system tools automatically (afaik at
least Suse does this).

  If after installation you have doubts, you can try "uname -a" and see
if "64" is mentioned anywhere in the result.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

"Warp" <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote in message 
news:43917446@news.povray.org...
>  I don't actually remember if you can upgrade Windows to 64-bit for
> free. You should consult microsoft.com.

I wouldn't be asking about linux if win 64 was free :) apparently my CD key 
will work but I still need to get the actual software. I suppose I could ask 
around at work and borrow someone's disk.... hmm.....

Thanks for the suggestions regarding linux, though I'm still very confused. 
Everyone seems to tell me to use whichever one I like best, but how am I 
supposed to know that without installing each one? I mean we're talking OS's 
here it's not trivial to try them out. And even more confusingly, if they're 
all basically the same then why are there so many different ones?! And what 
difference does it make?

Still, I'll look into Suse.

-- 
Tek
http://evilsuperbrain.com


"Warp" <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote in message 
news:43917446@news.povray.org...
> Tek <tek### [at] evilsuperbraincom> wrote:
>> I just bought an 64-bit AMD Turion based laptop, which irritatingly has
>> 32-bit windows installed
>
>  Don't you hate that? All those resources gone to waste...
>
>  (Of course one reason for that is that MS has still not published a
> good, stable and well-tested 64-bit version of Windows...)
>
>  I don't actually remember if you can upgrade Windows to 64-bit for
> free. You should consult microsoft.com.
>
>> 2/ how much better is 64-bit pov compared to 32-bit on the same system?
>> (i.e. is it worth the effort?)
>
>  Unlike many other 32/64-bit systems (such as UltraSparc and Macintosh),
> in the AMD 64-bit systems there's an actual speed advantage in running
> (optimized) 64-bit binaries compared to 32-bit binaries. This is because
> in 64-bit mode the CPU provides more resources for the program to use
> for speed (most importantly, more registers).
>  If you run a 64-bit binary of POV-Ray in an AMD64 processor, you will
> most probably get a rendering speed increase compared to the 32-bit binary
> in the same system. (Of course this assumes that the 64-bit binary has 
> been
> *optimized* for the 64-bit architecture. That depends on the compiler 
> used.)
>
>  Naturally other advantages (not to be taken lightly) include more usable
> memory (no 4GB limit anymore) and possibility of using larger files.
>
>> Now I realise there's no straight answer to question 1 but I'm getting SO
>> annoyed with linux users! Whenever I ask one of the guys at work they 
>> always
>> name about a dozen versions of linux I should try. It's an OS! I don't 
>> want
>> to try it, I just want to install one and use it!
>
>  I don't have too much experience about different linux distros, but in
> your case I would recommend Suse. It has a superb support for hardware
> (it was actually the only distro which would work correctly in my more
> or less exotic system) and it's easy to use (you can usually use its
> package manager yast2, which is quite easy to use, for almost everything).
>
>  All in all, especially if you don't have too new too exotic hardware,
> it usually doesn't matter too much which distro you use. I personally
> have good experiences about Suse, but you can choose whatever you like.
>
>> Can all versions of linux run povray?
>
>  I can't imagine why they couldn't. Can you?
>
>> Can they all run the same programs,
>> and if not why not?
>
>  I can't think of any reason why they couldn't. The kernel is identical
> in all of them and the system tools are the same. The only difference may
> be in the default amount of installed libraries, but most distros come
> with an easy-to-use package manager which can be used to easily install
> (almost) any library which you need.
>
>> Do different ones run pov at different speeds?
>
>  Why would they? The kernel is the same for all of them.
>
>> Are there
>> special 64-bit versions of linux (like windows) or is it just exposed in 
>> a
>> more implicit way?
>
>  I assume that most linux distros will detect your system and install the
> proper versions of the kernel and system tools automatically (afaik at
> least Suse does this).
>
>  If after installation you have doubts, you can try "uname -a" and see
> if "64" is mentioned anywhere in the result.
>
> -- 
>                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

Tek <tek### [at] evilsuperbraincom> wrote:
> Thanks for the suggestions regarding linux, though I'm still very confused. 
> Everyone seems to tell me to use whichever one I like best, but how am I 
> supposed to know that without installing each one?

  The point is that they are not all that different. A regular user would
not even notice a difference (assuming the same window manager is used).
  I recommended Suse because my experiences about its hardware support
have been very positive.

  Reminds me of http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=19990303

> And even more confusingly, if they're 
> all basically the same then why are there so many different ones?! And what 
> difference does it make?

  The differences are in the details. Most distros have their own
installer, for example, and some of them are easier to use than others,
and some are better at automatically configuring everything correctly
than others. Different distros may have different package management
systems which work on different package formats.
  Some distros are bigger than others and may be oriented at different
types of users. Some distros are more bare-bones while others come
with tons of stuff (some people could call it bloat).

  It's like different cars: They all work with the same type of internal
combustion motor, and they all have (compatible) wheels. However, some
cars look&feel different than others.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

Tek wrote:
> 
> 1/ what version of linux should I get?

Depends of your goals. Easy to install? Hmm, maybe Fedora or Ubuntu.
Easy to keep up to date? I'd guess pretty far every of them today.
Extreme optimization to get the last 0,05% of power to use with no fear
of hard thinking and with no knowledge of the word "easy"? Gentoo, Crux
or Slackware.

> 2/ how much better is 64-bit pov compared to 32-bit on the same system? 
> (i.e. is it worth the effort?)

Haven't tested 32-bit binaries for a loong time, since my Gentoo
compiles pretty far everything from the sources.

> Now I realise there's no straight answer to question 1 but I'm getting SO 
> annoyed with linux users! Whenever I ask one of the guys at work they always 
> name about a dozen versions of linux I should try. It's an OS! I don't want 
> to try it, I just want to install one and use it! I'm not scared of having 
> to use a command prompt (I use linux remotely from a windows PC at work 
> sometimes so I know my way around), I just want someone to tell me what the 
> difference is between them.

The answer depends pretty much of you, while the question really is
"what do you want". Everyone remembers Mr. Morden from Babylon 5 at this
time ;).

And the systems goes much deeper than just a useable shell. If you've
just basically used the unix-shell you've been provided, you'll notice
the difference if you'll go for eg. Gentoo. If you're actually
administrated Linux-system, you should get along with any distribution.

> Can all versions of linux run povray? Can they all run the same programs, 
> and if not why not? Do different ones run pov at different speeds? Are there 
> special 64-bit versions of linux (like windows) or is it just exposed in a 
> more implicit way?

Not all distributions are compiled to be 64-bit yet. AFAIK at least
Gentoo, Debian, Ubuntu and Fedora are providing amd64 -support on some
level.

> BTW, I've just started using emacs at work, so don't worry about suggesting 
> a version of linux that's friendly for windows users, I can handle a steep 
> learning curve (I'm going to regret saying that!).

Well then... http://www.gentoo.org/
But don't say I didn't tell you that's not the easiest-to-install ;).

> Please help me!

We will. Just be patient.

> Thanks


-- 
Eero "Aero" Ahonen
   http://www.zbxt.net
      aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:
> 
>   The point is that they are not all that different. A regular user would
> not even notice a difference (assuming the same window manager is used).
>   I recommended Suse because my experiences about its hardware support
> have been very positive.
> 
>   Reminds me of http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=19990303
> 

Have to comment that if he could not see the difference between Debian
and Red Hat back at 1999, he definedly won't see them between Red Hat
and SuSE :).

Mostly the apt-get vs. rpmhell -thingie back then. Nowadays RH (Fedora)
also has it's own top-level package tools AFAIK.

-- 
Eero "Aero" Ahonen
   http://www.zbxt.net
      aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid

Post a reply to this message

Tek wrote:
> 
> Now I realise there's no straight answer to question 1 but I'm getting SO 
> annoyed with linux users! Whenever I ask one of the guys at work they always 
> name about a dozen versions of linux I should try. It's an OS! I don't want 
> to try it, I just want to install one and use it! 

Then i'd seriously recommend you not to use Linux.  You should only use 
Linux if:

a) you want to and
b) you are willing to accept the differences in design philosophy.  The 
most important is the freedom of choice for nearly all elements and 
aspects of the system.  This starts with the hardware (Linux runs on 
nearly everything), continues with the large variety of distributions 
and ends with for example the literally hundreds of mail clients you can 
use.

I don't know anyone who started using Linux with these conditions not 
met and who stayed with Linux on the long term.  OTOH i also don't know 
anyone who started with these requirements and who did not stay with Linux.

And Linux is not an OS, Linux is just a kernel.  When you are talking 
about the whole OS you have the choice (and have to choose) between a 
lot of alternatives for every single aspect (for example the GUI: KDE, 
GNOME or various others).

I'm not scared of having
> to use a command prompt (I use linux remotely from a windows PC at work 
> sometimes so I know my way around), I just want someone to tell me what the 
> difference is between them.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Linux+distributions+comparison

BTW if you happen to decide for using Linux i would be interested in 
benchmark results for a Turion system.

Christoph

-- 
POV-Ray tutorials, include files, Landscape of the week:
http://www.imagico.de/ (Last updated 31 Oct. 2005)
MegaPOV with mechanics simulation: http://megapov.inetart.net/

Post a reply to this message

Jaime Vives Piqueres wrote:
> 
>   About 2), I don't really know if the official binary is 32 or 64
> bits, as I always compile the sources for my own platform.

The only official binary currently available is a 32bit one.

> The effort is
> so minimal that any advantage is worth. I mean, compiling your own
> version for you specific platform is very easy on Linux, and it should
> take only a few minutes more than installing the official binary (just
> make sure to install the development tools of your Linux distro).

IIRC the only tools required are gcc and make.  Most distributions 
install those by default.  For building with X Window display you need 
the development packages for the X-Libs.

Christoph

-- 
POV-Ray tutorials, include files, Landscape of the week:
http://www.imagico.de/ (Last updated 31 Oct. 2005)
MegaPOV with mechanics simulation: http://megapov.inetart.net/

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:
>   (Of course one reason for that is that MS has still not published a
> good, stable and well-tested 64-bit version of Windows...)

64-bit CPUs Windows might run on are how new?  Besides, MS has still not 
published a good, stable and well-tested *32-bit* version of Windows...

*ba-dum bum*

(XP is pretty good and stable, but...well-tested?)

-- 
Tim Cook
http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-empyrean

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GFA dpu- s: a?-- C++(++++) U P? L E--- W++(+++)>$
N++ o? K- w(+) O? M-(--) V? PS+(+++) PE(--) Y(--)
PGP-(--) t* 5++>+++++ X+ R* tv+ b++(+++) DI
D++(---) G(++) e*>++ h+ !r--- !y--
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Post a reply to this message

Actually it's megapov I'm using at the moment, which does provide a 64-bit 
linux version. But I'm reasonably comfortable doing my own compilation 
anyway. Not sure if I need the x-windows display, since that's the kind of 
thing I want advice on! I'm not sure what the best way is to use pov under 
linux.

-- 
Tek
http://evilsuperbrain.com

"Christoph Hormann" <chr### [at] gmxde> wrote in message 
news:dms1ja$l4g$1@chho.imagico.de...
> Jaime Vives Piqueres wrote:
>>
>>   About 2), I don't really know if the official binary is 32 or 64
>> bits, as I always compile the sources for my own platform.
>
> The only official binary currently available is a 32bit one.
>
>> The effort is
>> so minimal that any advantage is worth. I mean, compiling your own
>> version for you specific platform is very easy on Linux, and it should
>> take only a few minutes more than installing the official binary (just
>> make sure to install the development tools of your Linux distro).
>
> IIRC the only tools required are gcc and make.  Most distributions install 
> those by default.  For building with X Window display you need the 
> development packages for the X-Libs.
>
> Christoph
>
> -- 
> POV-Ray tutorials, include files, Landscape of the week:
> http://www.imagico.de/ (Last updated 31 Oct. 2005)
> MegaPOV with mechanics simulation: http://megapov.inetart.net/

Post a reply to this message

"Warp" <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote in message 
news:43917e17@news.povray.org...
>  Reminds me of http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=19990303

True enough :)

>  Some distros are bigger than others and may be oriented at different
> types of users. Some distros are more bare-bones while others come
> with tons of stuff (some people could call it bloat).

Yeah I think I'm definitely in the category that would call it bloat. I want 
everything I need to run pov and be able to download & install other stuff 
as needed, but that's all. And I'm even happy to use windows for the 
downloading.

>  It's like different cars: They all work with the same type of internal
> combustion motor, and they all have (compatible) wheels. However, some
> cars look&feel different than others.

Okay now that just terrifies me because I have a very strong opinion about 
what cars are best! For point of reference: lotus elise, caterham 7, noble, 
all very good. Lamborghini, Enzo, Zonda, beautiful and fast at but somehow 
not as technically impressive as the first group. Porsche Cayenne (that's 
the SUV), oh my god no. So basically I'd appreciate it if you can point me 
in the direction of a lightweight, good handling build of linux, with a 
decent power to weight ratio but lacking the luxury of most cars, and most 
definitely a manual gearbox :)

-- 
Tek
http://evilsuperbrain.com

Post a reply to this message

Oh thanks for the link, it's all a matter of choosing the right words to 
google for :) That's a big help.

I guess my biggest problem is I don't know how I'm going to use it. I 
suspect what I want is to switch to linux for rendering and text editing pov 
files, and use windows for everything else. But of course if I get a distro 
of linux which gives me a nice way to do regular computing then I might use 
it exclusively and leave windows alone. I don't know what I want to use it 
for and I don't know how to figure that out except by talking to people who 
already use linux for pov.

Anyway, that link should help me understand /how/ to choose a distro. Even 
if I still don't know what I want! :)

-- 
Tek
http://evilsuperbrain.com

"Christoph Hormann" <chr### [at] gmxde> wrote in message 
news:dms198$l1b$1@chho.imagico.de...
> Tek wrote:
>>
>> Now I realise there's no straight answer to question 1 but I'm getting SO 
>> annoyed with linux users! Whenever I ask one of the guys at work they 
>> always name about a dozen versions of linux I should try. It's an OS! I 
>> don't want to try it, I just want to install one and use it!
>
> Then i'd seriously recommend you not to use Linux.  You should only use 
> Linux if:
>
> a) you want to and
> b) you are willing to accept the differences in design philosophy.  The 
> most important is the freedom of choice for nearly all elements and 
> aspects of the system.  This starts with the hardware (Linux runs on 
> nearly everything), continues with the large variety of distributions and 
> ends with for example the literally hundreds of mail clients you can use.
>
> I don't know anyone who started using Linux with these conditions not met 
> and who stayed with Linux on the long term.  OTOH i also don't know anyone 
> who started with these requirements and who did not stay with Linux.
>
> And Linux is not an OS, Linux is just a kernel.  When you are talking 
> about the whole OS you have the choice (and have to choose) between a lot 
> of alternatives for every single aspect (for example the GUI: KDE, GNOME 
> or various others).
>
> I'm not scared of having
>> to use a command prompt (I use linux remotely from a windows PC at work 
>> sometimes so I know my way around), I just want someone to tell me what 
>> the difference is between them.
>
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Linux+distributions+comparison
>
> BTW if you happen to decide for using Linux i would be interested in 
> benchmark results for a Turion system.
>
> Christoph
>
> -- 
> POV-Ray tutorials, include files, Landscape of the week:
> http://www.imagico.de/ (Last updated 31 Oct. 2005)
> MegaPOV with mechanics simulation: http://megapov.inetart.net/

Post a reply to this message

Tek <tek### [at] evilsuperbraincom> wrote:
> Not sure if I need the x-windows display, since that's the kind of 
> thing I want advice on! I'm not sure what the best way is to use pov under 
> linux.

  Well, if you don't have X support in POV-Ray, you won't see the image
while it's rendering it.
  (Well, technically speaking that's not completely true because when
there's no graphical window POV-Ray will instead show an ascii version
of the image instead... However, that is in no way enough. :P )

  With properly compiled povray and properly configured emacs you can
make it look like this:
http://tag.povray.org/povQandT/EmacsPovFrontend.png

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

Tek <tek### [at] evilsuperbraincom> wrote:
> So basically I'd appreciate it if you can point me 
> in the direction of a lightweight, good handling build of linux, with a 
> decent power to weight ratio but lacking the luxury of most cars, and most 
> definitely a manual gearbox :)

  Well, even though many distros (such as suse) come with a large amount
of software, installing most of that software is optional (you can always
install a piece of software later quite easily with yast2 from either the
installation disc or online).

  Debian (latest unstable version) is usually what many linux gurus use,
but I have heard mixed opinions about it. I can't really say what it is
that makes debian so popular.
  If I'm not mistaken, ubuntu is a "debian for regular users". However
my personal experience is that its installer has poorer hardware support
than suse.

  I think suse should be more than enough for you. Try it, and if you
don't like it, you can always try something else. :)

  Just remember one thing with suse: Whenever you want to configure
something, check first if you can do it with yast2. It's not only
easier that way, but also recommended (harded to screw up things).
Most things can be done with it. This includes program installation
(for most programs, although not all). Even if someone (or some page)
tells you to "open such and such file and edit such and such line",
just check first if you could configure that thing with yast2. (Most
of those advices are for debian anyways :P )

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

Tim Cook <z99### [at] bellsouthnet> wrote:
> (XP is pretty good and stable, but...well-tested?)

  No matter how much I hate MS, I can't deny that XP has been working
quite well for me. No crashes, no odd behaviour, things work ok.

  (Ok, it has crashed once, but it was because of a hardware issue.
Linux is reported to crash with that same hardware issue too.)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:
>
>   Well, if you don't have X support in POV-Ray, you won't see the image
> while it's rendering it.
>   (Well, technically speaking that's not completely true because when
> there's no graphical window POV-Ray will instead show an ascii version
> of the image instead... However, that is in no way enough. :P )
>

And you can view the file with eg. gqview or Gimp while rendering. Since
POV won't scale the image, I'm currently running one render with -D and
checking status once in a while with gqview.

-- 
Eero "Aero" Ahonen
   http://www.zbxt.net
      aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:
>
>   Just remember one thing with suse: Whenever you want to configure
> something, check first if you can do it with yast2. It's not only
> easier that way, but also recommended (harded to screw up things).
> Most things can be done with it. This includes program installation
> (for most programs, although not all). Even if someone (or some page)
> tells you to "open such and such file and edit such and such line",
> just check first if you could configure that thing with yast2. (Most
> of those advices are for debian anyways :P )
> 

One addition for this. If you'll anyway for some reason edit some
configs directly, backup them before you'll run yast2 next time. In my
experience, when you configure something (eg. Samba) under yast2, it'll
write the whole config again and you're little changes might get lost.

As with everything, backups are the key of surviving ;). Backups,
backups, backups...

-- 
Eero "Aero" Ahonen
   http://www.zbxt.net
      aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:
>
>   No matter how much I hate MS, I can't deny that XP has been working
> quite well for me. No crashes, no odd behaviour, things work ok.
>

I've had one major problem with WinXP. Whenever, whereever I'm using it,
it's just not compatible with the user. Ok, there are some more issues
as always, but that's the most buggering one I think I'll ever see.

-- 
Eero "Aero" Ahonen
   http://www.zbxt.net
      aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid

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Eero Ahonen <aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid> wrote:
> One addition for this. If you'll anyway for some reason edit some
> configs directly, backup them before you'll run yast2 next time. In my
> experience, when you configure something (eg. Samba) under yast2, it'll
> write the whole config again and you're little changes might get lost.

  AFAIK yast2 will try to read and parse the configuration file so that
any manually-made changes have a high probability of showing up in the
yast2 window and not be lost, but it never hurts to backup, of course.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

Eero Ahonen <aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid> wrote:
> I've had one major problem with WinXP. Whenever, whereever I'm using it,
> it's just not compatible with the user. Ok, there are some more issues
> as always, but that's the most buggering one I think I'll ever see.

  I thought Windows was designed to be user-friendly (even at the
expense of efficiency, stability and security) :P

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

Tek wrote:
> 
> I guess my biggest problem is I don't know how I'm going to use it. I 
> suspect what I want is to switch to linux for rendering and text editing pov 
> files, and use windows for everything else. But of course if I get a distro 
> of linux which gives me a nice way to do regular computing then I might use 
> it exclusively and leave windows alone. I don't know what I want to use it 
> for and I don't know how to figure that out except by talking to people who 
> already use linux for pov.
> 

More on that, you will want to use it for normal websurfing etc while
poving. Or do you say that you've never surfed to find some answer for a
prob while POVing? Eg. for me, reading POV online manual is pretty
normal while POVing :).

And when your computer is calculating The Big Image, you might want to
do something while it's doing it(1). Eg. you could dig your way deeper
and deeper of Linux-knowledge ;).

Finally, I'd guess you don't want to get the reboot-delay every time you
want to do something else, if it's possible on the currently running
system. So I'd say, go for a usable desktop, that's what you'll most
propably want someday.

(1) 124:45:15 Rendering line 295 of 5200, 24901 rad. samples

-- 
Eero "Aero" Ahonen
   http://www.zbxt.net
      aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:
> 
>   AFAIK yast2 will try to read and parse the configuration file so that
> any manually-made changes have a high probability of showing up in the
> yast2 window and not be lost, but it never hurts to backup, of course.
> 

It might try, I haven't really used it much. But it has ruined some of
my configs, so I shout for backups. OTOH, even if it didn't ruin them,
I'd still shout for backups :).

-- 
Eero "Aero" Ahonen
   http://www.zbxt.net
      aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:
> 
>   I thought Windows was designed to be user-friendly (even at the
> expense of efficiency, stability and security) :P
> 

The problem might partly be on the user-part, but I've never seen
actually user-friendly Windows. XP just sucks lot more than even 2k or NT.

-- 
Eero "Aero" Ahonen
   http://www.zbxt.net
      aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid

Post a reply to this message

Eero Ahonen wrote:
> it's just not compatible with the user. 

That's the infamous POBCAK error.


(Problem Occurs Between Chair And Keyboard. :-)

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
    Sabotage? Communist conspiracy? Or just
    Microsoft again? Only time will tell.

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Eero Ahonen nous apporta ses lumieres en ce 2005-12-03 17:17:
> Tek wrote:

> (1) 124:45:15 Rendering line 295 of 5200, 24901 rad. samples
> 
I did a render that exeeded 20 000 000 rad samples for a 1208*960 render. It was
aproching the 
million around 150 lines, maybe less... and the radiosity settings where not very
high, default with 
60 samples and recursion_limit 2.

-- 
Alain
-------------------------------------------------
WARNING: The consumption of alcohol is a major factor in dancing like a retard.

Post a reply to this message

Alain wrote:
>
> I did a render that exeeded 20 000 000 rad samples for a 1208*960
> render. It was aproching the million around 150 lines, maybe less... and
> the radiosity settings where not very high, default with 60 samples and
> recursion_limit 2.
> 

Uuh, nice. How long did it take and how much memory did it consume? And
on what hardware?

-- 
Eero "Aero" Ahonen
   http://www.zbxt.net
      aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid

Post a reply to this message

Among other things, Tek saw fit to write:

> 1/ what version of linux should I get?

Any modern up-to-date one. I use Mandriva in several computers and it works
perfectly for me. There is a 64-bit version of Mandriva.

> 2/ how much better is 64-bit pov compared to 32-bit on the same system?
> (i.e. is it worth the effort?)

I have no idea, sorry. I have never tried a 64-bit system.

To your other questions. Any decent linux can run POV-Ray, you just compile
it from sources (which is easy) with the appropriate optimizations (which
may be harder to find, but google and usenet are your friends).

And yes, you need a "special" linux for a 64-bit system, at least if you
want it to really use the 64 bits[*]. My advice is to install a 64-bit
distro, take your time configuring it at your liking (install, uninstall
and setup programs) and keep it up-to-date with its tools (urpmi, apt, yum,
yast... whatever).

[*] This is because you get the precompiled kernel and tools. If you were
going to compile everything yourself (as you can do with Gentoo or LFS),
then I guess you don't need a special version, or better said, in this case
you get your very special personalized version for your very specific
computer.

-- 
light_source{9+9*x,1}camera{orthographic look_at(1-y)/4angle 30location
9/4-z*4}light_source{-9*z,1}union{box{.9-z.1+x clipped_by{plane{2+y-4*x
0}}}box{z-y-.1.1+z}box{-.1.1+x}box{.1z-.1}pigment{rgb<.8.2,1>}}//Jellby

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That interface looks great! So what do I need to set it up like that?

-- 
Tek
http://evilsuperbrain.com

"Warp" <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote in message 
news:4392066b@news.povray.org...
> Tek <tek### [at] evilsuperbraincom> wrote:
>> Not sure if I need the x-windows display, since that's the kind of
>> thing I want advice on! I'm not sure what the best way is to use pov 
>> under
>> linux.
>
>  Well, if you don't have X support in POV-Ray, you won't see the image
> while it's rendering it.
>  (Well, technically speaking that's not completely true because when
> there's no graphical window POV-Ray will instead show an ascii version
> of the image instead... However, that is in no way enough. :P )
>
>  With properly compiled povray and properly configured emacs you can
> make it look like this:
> http://tag.povray.org/povQandT/EmacsPovFrontend.png
>
> -- 
>                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

"Jellby" <me### [at] privacynet> wrote in message 
news:og7### [at] badulaqueunexes...
> And yes, you need a "special" linux for a 64-bit system, at least if you
> want it to really use the 64 bits[*]. My advice is to install a 64-bit
> distro, take your time configuring it at your liking (install, uninstall
> and setup programs) and keep it up-to-date with its tools (urpmi, apt, 
> yum,
> yast... whatever).

What no auto update? ;)

Thanks for the advice, I think I'm starting to get some idea what I want to 
do.

-- 
Tek
http://evilsuperbrain.com

Post a reply to this message

Well multi-tasking isn't so vital for me, since I'll be installing it on my 
laptop and I can only realistically render with that if it's plugged in, in 
which case I'll have a desktop PC I can used for other tasks.

Also my current scene uses a lot of Daz Studio models, and they don't have a 
linux build available, so I'm probably only going to be using linux in 
collaboration with a windows PC or for final renders.

Still, that's not a reason to avoid a more full-featured version of linux!

-- 
Tek
http://evilsuperbrain.com

"Eero Ahonen" <aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid> wrote in message 
news:4392195d$1@news.povray.org...
> Tek wrote:
>>
>> I guess my biggest problem is I don't know how I'm going to use it. I
>> suspect what I want is to switch to linux for rendering and text editing 
>> pov
>> files, and use windows for everything else. But of course if I get a 
>> distro
>> of linux which gives me a nice way to do regular computing then I might 
>> use
>> it exclusively and leave windows alone. I don't know what I want to use 
>> it
>> for and I don't know how to figure that out except by talking to people 
>> who
>> already use linux for pov.
>>
>
> More on that, you will want to use it for normal websurfing etc while
> poving. Or do you say that you've never surfed to find some answer for a
> prob while POVing? Eg. for me, reading POV online manual is pretty
> normal while POVing :).
>
> And when your computer is calculating The Big Image, you might want to
> do something while it's doing it(1). Eg. you could dig your way deeper
> and deeper of Linux-knowledge ;).
>
> Finally, I'd guess you don't want to get the reboot-delay every time you
> want to do something else, if it's possible on the currently running
> system. So I'd say, go for a usable desktop, that's what you'll most
> propably want someday.
>
> (1) 124:45:15 Rendering line 295 of 5200, 24901 rad. samples
>
> -- 
> Eero "Aero" Ahonen
>   http://www.zbxt.net
>      aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid

Post a reply to this message

Tek wrote:
>>distro, take your time configuring it at your liking (install, uninstall
>>and setup programs) and keep it up-to-date with its tools (urpmi, apt, 
>>yum,
>>yast... whatever).
> 
> What no auto update? ;)
> 

Yes, if you script it (very easy). However, since the DNS's may be
spoofed etc, no such thing should ever be used at homes since it's a
total security risk. For companies it might get useful with local cache
for checked and tested upgrade packages.

-- 
Eero "Aero" Ahonen
   http://www.zbxt.net
      aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid

Post a reply to this message

Tek wrote:
> 
> I guess my biggest problem is I don't know how I'm going to use it. I 
> suspect what I want is to switch to linux for rendering and text editing pov 
> files, and use windows for everything else.

I can almost guarantee you that this won't work as a permanent solution. 
  You will either stop using Linux or stop using Windows after some time 
(or have several PCs or run Windows/Windows programs in emulation).

Christoph

-- 
POV-Ray tutorials, include files, Landscape of the week:
http://www.imagico.de/ (Last updated 31 Oct. 2005)
MegaPOV with mechanics simulation: http://megapov.inetart.net/

Post a reply to this message

Nearly all major and minor distros come with a live-cd version. You may 
try that out without installing a single byte on your HD. I can't think 
of a better way to find the distro that suits your needs best.

As far as I am concerned, I've been using SUSE 10 for two months now and 
I can recommend it to you. Not too much hair pulling. YAST2 is bless.

Start your Live-cd hunt here: http://distrowatch.com/

Have fun!

--
Jonathan.

Post a reply to this message

Tek <tek### [at] evilsuperbraincom> wrote:
> That interface looks great! So what do I need to set it up like that?

  Get pov-mode for emacs (try google), configure emacs to show maximum
amount of syntax coloring (you can also configure the colors to your
liking), and compile povray with X support. Then all you need is an
xterm to run povray from.
  After that you only have to learn how to use that setup fluently.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

"Christoph Hormann" <chr### [at] gmxde> wrote in message 
news:dmvbdj$qvf$1@chho.imagico.de...
> I can almost guarantee you that this won't work as a permanent solution. 
> You will either stop using Linux or stop using Windows after some time (or 
> have several PCs or run Windows/Windows programs in emulation).

Ah, well you see that was mentioned at the start, we're talking about how I 
can get the most of my laptop, I assume I'm gonna keep using windows on my 
desktop machine regardless.

Though to be honest, it's likely I'll only use the laptop when travelling 
and seldom in conjunction with my desktop, in which case it would be more 
helpful to have everything I want in one OS, so your point still stands, so 
this whole message is a bit academic... :)

-- 
Tek
http://evilsuperbrain.com

Post a reply to this message

I was joking, auto-update is something I can live without. In fact most of 
the time it just annoys me.

-- 
Tek
http://evilsuperbrain.com

"Eero Ahonen" <aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid> wrote in message 
news:43932b93$1@news.povray.org...
> Tek wrote:
>>>distro, take your time configuring it at your liking (install, uninstall
>>>and setup programs) and keep it up-to-date with its tools (urpmi, apt,
>>>yum,
>>>yast... whatever).
>>
>> What no auto update? ;)
>>
>
> Yes, if you script it (very easy). However, since the DNS's may be
> spoofed etc, no such thing should ever be used at homes since it's a
> total security risk. For companies it might get useful with local cache
> for checked and tested upgrade packages.
>
> -- 
> Eero "Aero" Ahonen
>   http://www.zbxt.net
>      aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid

Post a reply to this message

Oh... so that's what live-cd means, cool!

Thanks, I think I have a plan:
1/ look at the websites everyone mentioned, narrow it down to 3-4 distros. 
Including Suse since it seems to be the only one mentioned by more than 1 
person!
2/ download live-cd versions and have a play around to learn what the 
differences are.
3/ pick the best, or get more live-cd versions if I don't like any of them.

I'll post here to let you know the result (with xmas and the current IRTC 
round I won't have much time to evaluate linux distros so it'll be a few 
weeks ).

Thanks everyone!
-- 
Tek
http://evilsuperbrain.com

"JRG" <j.M### [at] tiscaliit> wrote in message 
news:43934076@news.povray.org...
> Nearly all major and minor distros come with a live-cd version. You may 
> try that out without installing a single byte on your HD. I can't think of 
> a better way to find the distro that suits your needs best.
>
> As far as I am concerned, I've been using SUSE 10 for two months now and I 
> can recommend it to you. Not too much hair pulling. YAST2 is bless.
>
> Start your Live-cd hunt here: http://distrowatch.com/
>
> Have fun!
>
> --
> Jonathan.

Post a reply to this message

I'd already found the pov mode for emacs, but obviously haven't tried it 
yet. I'll make sure I can run x-windows on whatever distro I get.

Thanks!
-- 
Tek
http://evilsuperbrain.com

"Warp" <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote in message 
news:43936e1d@news.povray.org...
> Tek <tek### [at] evilsuperbraincom> wrote:
>> That interface looks great! So what do I need to set it up like that?
>
>  Get pov-mode for emacs (try google), configure emacs to show maximum
> amount of syntax coloring (you can also configure the colors to your
> liking), and compile povray with X support. Then all you need is an
> xterm to run povray from.
>  After that you only have to learn how to use that setup fluently.
>
> -- 
>                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

Tek <tek### [at] evilsuperbraincom> wrote:
> 2/ download live-cd versions and have a play around to learn what the 
> differences are.

  My bet is that you will not see too much difference between live-cds,
regardless of the distro.
  The only notable difference you may see will happen if the distros use
different window managers. However, window managers are not really
distro-dependent and they can be installed in all distros (either directly
from their installation process or later).

  Naturally if some live-cd fails to start up because it can't detect
your hardware correctly, that may be a good indicative of a distro you
don't want to install... :P

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

> I can almost guarantee you that this won't work as a permanent solution. 
>  You will either stop using Linux or stop using Windows after some time 

	Life isn't so black or white, is it?

	I've been constantly using both environments for about 10 years now
(but started with DOS 5.0/Windows 2.1).  My equations system is pretty
simple actually:

Windows == multimedia* and games**
Linux   == work and development

	I know the first equation is becoming less relevant though.

	- NC

  * basically DVD and photographic stuffs.
** well in fact, not even, as I stopped playing games before win95 showed up.

Post a reply to this message

Nicolas Calimet <pov### [at] freefr> wrote:
> Windows == multimedia* and games**

>   * basically DVD and photographic stuffs.

  I am often too lazy to boot to windows in order to watch a DVD, so
I just watch it in linux with mplayer. Mplayer does not support
anything else than watching the specified track (eg. it doesn't
support the DVD menu system nor any interactive functionality that
the DVD may have), but it has been enough...

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

Nicolas Calimet wrote:
> 
>     Life isn't so black or white, is it?
> 
>     I've been constantly using both environments for about 10 years now
> (but started with DOS 5.0/Windows 2.1).  My equations system is pretty
> simple actually:

Switching between on a single system?

> Windows == multimedia* and games**
> Linux   == work and development
> 
>     I know the first equation is becoming less relevant though.

Well if one is used very rarely (i'd say less than 5% of the time) this 
might work.  It appears to me that this might be so in your case.

But i agree that i should be more careful with saying "this won't work". 
  You can observe much stranger computer use habits out there than 
routinely rebooting to switch between operating systems several times 
per day...

Chritoph

-- 
POV-Ray tutorials, include files, Landscape of the week:
http://www.imagico.de/ (Last updated 31 Oct. 2005)
MegaPOV with mechanics simulation: http://megapov.inetart.net/

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:
> 
>   I am often too lazy to boot to windows in order to watch a DVD, so
> I just watch it in linux with mplayer. Mplayer does not support
> anything else than watching the specified track (eg. it doesn't
> support the DVD menu system nor any interactive functionality that
> the DVD may have), but it has been enough...
> 

Ever tried Xine? DVD Menus, DXR3 -support (demands em8300 -drivers,
naturally), playlists etc...

But yes, MPlayer is a nice player. I also usually use it.

-- 
Eero "Aero" Ahonen
   http://www.zbxt.net
      aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid

Post a reply to this message

> Switching between on a single system?

	Yes (home computer*) especially since I finally got to install
a second hard drive for linux only.  Booting either system is a matter
of ~15 (Windows) and 20** (Linux) seconds on my not-so-fast computer...
I can afford doing that every once in a while per day  :-)

> Well if one is used very rarely (i'd say less than 5% of the time) this 
> might work.  It appears to me that this might be so in your case.

	Not really -- it's amazing how much I like to watch DVDs  ;-)
	In fact it's nowadays pretty close to fifty-fifty.

	- NC

  * at work: 100% Linux without dual boot;
    laptop : 100% Windows (for "safety" wrt drivers) with Cygwin/Mingw.
** to the Linux console on a Knoppix-derived distro with self-compiled
    kernel and modules; X/KDE takes almost 10 seconds more to start up.

Post a reply to this message

Nicolas Calimet wrote:
> 
>     Not really -- it's amazing how much I like to watch DVDs  ;-)
>     In fact it's nowadays pretty close to fifty-fifty.

So you are spending half of your time watching DVDs and gaming?

SCNR.

And you have my sympathy for not being able to check your EMail while 
watching a movie. ;-)

Christoph

-- 
POV-Ray tutorials, include files, Landscape of the week:
http://www.imagico.de/ (Last updated 31 Oct. 2005)
MegaPOV with mechanics simulation: http://megapov.inetart.net/

Post a reply to this message

Eero Ahonen wrote:
> 
> Ever tried Xine? DVD Menus, DXR3 -support (demands em8300 -drivers,
> naturally), playlists etc...
> 
> But yes, MPlayer is a nice player. I also usually use it.
> 

Right after writing this my Xine crashed :o. That's life, Lucky for me
MPlayer still worked...


-- 
Eero "Aero" Ahonen
   http://www.zbxt.net
      aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid

Post a reply to this message

"Tek" <tek### [at] evilsuperbraincom> wrote in message
news:439155ee$1@news.povray.org...
> 1/ what version of linux should I get?

As other have said, SuSE is pretty good. I prefer Ubuntu though. Ubuntu
however, didn't install all the necessary development tools by default,
however it's update program "Synaptic" is very easy to use and very easy to
select what you need. development tools would be needed to build POV-Ray
from source.

both SuSE and Ubuntu have 64 bit versions

> 2/ how much better is 64-bit pov compared to 32-bit on the same system?
> (i.e. is it worth the effort?)

I got about 21% speed increase on benchmark.ini going from 32 bit to
self-compiled 64 bit POV-Ray. See povray.benchmarking for details.

Post a reply to this message

Eero Ahonen nous apporta ses lumieres en ce 2005-12-04 03:55:
> Alain wrote:
> 
>>I did a render that exeeded 20 000 000 rad samples for a 1208*960
>>render. It was aproching the million around 150 lines, maybe less... and
>>the radiosity settings where not very high, default with 60 samples and
>>recursion_limit 2.
>>
> 
> 
> Uuh, nice. How long did it take and how much memory did it consume? And
> on what hardware?
> 
I had some intermitent swapping, I don't remember exactly how much memory was used,
maybe around 700 
to 800 Mb. It rendered in about 40 hours.
AMD 1400 with 512 Mb. (time to upgrade)

-- 
Alain
-------------------------------------------------
Keep your boss’s boss off your boss’s back.

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:
> Nicolas Calimet <pov### [at] freefr> wrote:
> 
>>Windows == multimedia* and games**
> 
> 
>>  * basically DVD and photographic stuffs.
> 
> 
>   I am often too lazy to boot to windows in order to watch a DVD, so
> I just watch it in linux with mplayer. Mplayer does not support
> anything else than watching the specified track (eg. it doesn't
> support the DVD menu system nor any interactive functionality that
> the DVD may have), but it has been enough...
> 
For DVDs, I've been using xine with Fedora 3 -- works fine.  I even 
reboot to Linux from Windows just to play a DVD...   :-)  (Yes, I have 
DVD players for Windows (2 of them), but I actually tend to prefer xine.)

      -=- Larry -=-

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