Folks,
I have bunches of ideas for rendering projects that I would like to
experiment with.  My question is kinda subtle ...

Do you consider it "cheating" to use 3D models from the web that are other
peoples work as part of your composition?  For example, there are many great
models at www.3dcafe.com and others.  Is it common practice to take these
models and combine them with our own to build scenes?  Is that considered
poor practice and that to be considered a "good POV-Rayer" we should be
building our own models?

What about for competitions like the IRTC?

Neil

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"Neil Kolban" <kol### [at] kolbancom> wrote in message 
news:41eb07ef@news.povray.org...
> Folks,
> I have bunches of ideas for rendering projects that I would like to
> experiment with.  My question is kinda subtle ...
>
> Do you consider it "cheating" to use 3D models from the web that are other
> peoples work as part of your composition?  For example, there are many 
> great
> models at www.3dcafe.com and others.  Is it common practice to take these
> models and combine them with our own to build scenes?  Is that considered
> poor practice and that to be considered a "good POV-Rayer" we should be
> building our own models?
>
> What about for competitions like the IRTC?
>


The quick answer is "no".  From what I've seen, it's not considered cheating 
to use 3rd party models.

The longer answer is that it depends on who you ask.  If you read Gilles 
Tran's list of 3rd party models for "The Wet Bird", which is probably the 
most popular POV-Ray image ever created, you'll see a lot of 3rd party 
models were used 
(http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2000-04-30/gt_city.txt).  However, the 
image itself is not simply based on 3rd party models.  He had to do a lot of 
work.  One cannot simply throw a bunch of things into a scene and have it 
look that good.  So, obtaining and using free models (or pay models) is not 
generally frowned up, but it's also not lauded.  Using that same example, 
some of the people in the IRTC did not like the fact that Gilles did not 
create his own models 
(http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2000-04-30/comments/gt_city.comments).

My personal feeling is that a lot of the models available from the Web 
aren't very good, though there are some exceptions.  Then there are some 
things that I simply cannot seem to create by myself, like humans, in which 
case grabbing a 3rd party model is the only real option.  I like to make 
things myself because I enjoy the experience, and because it gives me more 
flexibility.  If I can't do it myself, or don't want to spend the time, then 
I'd grab a model.

Overall, I would suggest that you don't simply grab a model and make it the 
main focus of your image, but even then, there are exceptions.  Many people 
here have used Poser models as the main subject of their images.  So, in the 
end I guess it depends on what you do with the model.  Redoing the textures 
on the '57 Chevy , and putting it on a flat surface isn't going to impress 
very many people here, but this 
(http://www.oyonale.com/ldc/english/chevys.htm) will.

As with most things, it's subjective.  Use your best judgement.

-- 
Jeremy
www.beantoad.com

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Neil Kolban wrote:

> Do you consider it "cheating" to use 3D models from the web that are
> other peoples work as part of your composition?

I personally consider it boring. Art by amalgamation.

> Is it common practice to take these models and combine them with our
> own to build scenes?

Common here. On other forums you would get jeered (in contrast to most 
original POV images being simply ignored).

> Is that considered poor practice and that to be considered a "good
> POV-Rayer" we should be building our own models?

You can see in the 'Hall of Fame' on the POV-Ray website that many "good 
POV-Rayer(s)" use 3rd party models.

> What about for competitions like the IRTC?

You can go to the IRTC page and see for yourself. It has long been 
accepted that a person who spends two months texturing a pre-made model 
will receive higher scores than a person who makes something from 
scratch (leaving perhaps only two weeks for texturing). No other 
competition with which I am familiar (except perhaps POVCOMP) would 
allow this.

  -Shay

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Jeremy M. Praay wrote:
> "Neil Kolban" <kol### [at] kolbancom> wrote in message 
> news:41eb07ef@news.povray.org...
> 
>>Folks,
>>I have bunches of ideas for rendering projects that I would like to
>>experiment with.  My question is kinda subtle ...
>>
>>Do you consider it "cheating" to use 3D models from the web that are other
>>peoples work as part of your composition?  For example, there are many 
>>great
>>models at www.3dcafe.com and others.  Is it common practice to take these
>>models and combine them with our own to build scenes?  Is that considered
>>poor practice and that to be considered a "good POV-Rayer" we should be
>>building our own models?
>>
>>What about for competitions like the IRTC?
>>
> 
> 
> 
> The quick answer is "no".  From what I've seen, it's not considered cheating 
> to use 3rd party models.
> 
> The longer answer is that it depends on who you ask.  If you read Gilles 
> Tran's list of 3rd party models for "The Wet Bird", which is probably the 
> most popular POV-Ray image ever created, you'll see a lot of 3rd party 
> models were used 
> (http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2000-04-30/gt_city.txt).  However, the 
> image itself is not simply based on 3rd party models.  He had to do a lot of 
> work.  One cannot simply throw a bunch of things into a scene and have it 
> look that good.  So, obtaining and using free models (or pay models) is not 
> generally frowned up, but it's also not lauded.  Using that same example, 
> some of the people in the IRTC did not like the fact that Gilles did not 
> create his own models 
> (http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2000-04-30/comments/gt_city.comments).
> 
> My personal feeling is that a lot of the models available from the Web 
> aren't very good, though there are some exceptions.  Then there are some 
> things that I simply cannot seem to create by myself, like humans, in which 
> case grabbing a 3rd party model is the only real option.  I like to make 
> things myself because I enjoy the experience, and because it gives me more 
> flexibility.  If I can't do it myself, or don't want to spend the time, then 
> I'd grab a model.
> 
> Overall, I would suggest that you don't simply grab a model and make it the 
> main focus of your image, but even then, there are exceptions.  Many people 
> here have used Poser models as the main subject of their images.  So, in the 
> end I guess it depends on what you do with the model.  Redoing the textures 
> on the '57 Chevy , and putting it on a flat surface isn't going to impress 
> very many people here, but this 
> (http://www.oyonale.com/ldc/english/chevys.htm) will.
> 
> As with most things, it's subjective.  Use your best judgement.
> 

Great answer!

It does seem that an image that simply "WOW's you" isn't quite enough, 
there has to be the perception of value added in the form of work or 
technical finesse too.  Though I love "Wet Bird" and I can think of no 
image that rocked me quite as thoroughly before or since

  ( well one, Gena's Sea round entry
http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2000-08-31/gosea.jpg )*


It always truck me as notable that "Wet Bird" took on such a 
transcendent status given that Gilles broke most of the cherished POVer 
rules.  The image used borrowed mesh models, extensive bitmapping, and 
false atmospheric effects.  From this I concluded that if an image WOW's 
the audience, all is forgiven.  I think it was the near stupifying 
photo-realism he achieved there.  And I also like Chris Huff's comments. 
  The Gilles has such a sense of how to make "things fit" together.  He 
is such a comsumate environment mapper, technician, and story teller, 
paired with his visual inventiveness, that where he gets the objects 
does not seem to matter.

But this is not so true usually.  We know that Doug Eichenberg
and we know he is a great modeller:
http://www.getinfo.net/douge/babbage.htm

but he also makes very poetic use of borrowed models:

http://www.getinfo.net/douge/siren.htm
http://www.getinfo.net/douge/capitol.htm

But these images were not treated nearly so well in the voting results.

*this entry was probably the one image that I ever thought transcended 
the form and became that undefinable thing called Art.

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news:41eb07ef@news.povray.org...
> Do you consider it "cheating" to use 3D models from the web that are other
> peoples work as part of your composition?

Jeremy already gave you a comprehensive answer but here's my take on it.

- professional 3D artists building a portfolio in order to find employment
will rather do everything themselves, as a demonstration of the full range
of their talent since using 3D party resources wouldn't add value to the
demonstration.

- professional 3D artists working for a client will buy models in order to
save time (there's a thriving industry of 3D models after all)

- hobbyists usually prefer doing things themselves but can quickly find
technical limits with the free or cheap software they use. So the choices
are as follows:
 (a) going beyond the limits by using 3rd party resources (i.e. using a 3rd
party car model)
 (b) going beyond the limits while still refusing to use 3rd party resources
(i.e. modelling a car with CSG, knowing that the car will be little blocky
or toy-like)
 (c) staying within the limits and refusing to use 3rd party resouces (no
having realistic cars in one's images)

None of this is fully satisfying for everyone. (a) can lead to very good
images but can be seen as "cheating" by purists (and the models may not even
be that good). (b) easily leads to bad stuff and (c) seriously limits what
one can do.

This is slightly less a problem today, now that there are good free/cheap
modellers around, though modelling/posing a full human face and body is
still a beyond most people's abilities and tools. If I were to redo the "Wet
bird" today, I would probably model the cars in Wings (which would give me
better control on the car makes and models) but I would still use Poser for
the character.

G.

-- 

**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters

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Jim Charter wrote:
> ...if an image WOW's the audience,
> all is forgiven.

I believe that generosity somewhat limited to this audience.

  -Shay

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Gilles Tran wrote:
>  (a) going beyond the limits by using 3rd party resources (i.e. using a 3rd
> party car model)
>  (b) going beyond the limits while still refusing to use 3rd party resources
> (i.e. modelling a car with CSG, knowing that the car will be little blocky
> or toy-like)
>  (c) staying within the limits and refusing to use 3rd party resouces (no
> having realistic cars in one's images)

Good choises. I myself usually prefer C of these (photographing is for 
reality, raytracing goes beoynd reality's limits), but sometimes B 
(which usually really does get icky results). The situation I'm using a 
3rd-party resources is usually to, hmm, "get model" from someone elses 
code (open source, naturally), eg. example scenes that come with 
POV-Ray, the ones found freely at internet etc.

What comes to cheating while using ready-made meshes, scenes etc, it 
depends on the situation. It's always used as an easier or faster way to 
get trough something (otherwise there wouldn't be any sense), but IMO 
it's not cheating unless possibly for the owner of the 
mesh/scene/whatever_used_here. Meaning that, if I have an open-source 
scene or macro or texture or whatever at my homepage and a text "use if 
you like", it's not cheating. But if you'll for eg get a copied version 
of paying (I mean the ones that are out to be sold) mesh/scene/whatever 
(eg from p2p etc), that's cheating. Not to the looker of the image, but 
to the maker of the scene. It's the license that makes the difference 
here - for me.

Hope someones understood :).

-- 
-Aero

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"Neil Kolban" <kol### [at] kolbancom> wrote in message 
news:41eb07ef@news.povray.org...

   Personally, I will *never* use anyone elses model/s - ever. I've worked 
too hard at it, and lost a lot too. I love Wings, and I love the challenge 
of modeling. I don't see what's wrong with using modelers if PoV-Ray can 
utilise them as efficiently as it does. (Thank you PoseRay/PoV-Ray).

 Seriously, I wouldn't feel happy about 'any' scene I produced if I used 
someone elses model/s.

  Fair play to the PoV guru's that do it themselves though... I appreciate 
their talent.

   ~Steve~


> Neil
>
>

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