Hi all

I was just wondering which operating system(s) you use in concocting your
traces? 

It seems that Windows has nicer programs (Moray for example) for designing
scenes, but is not so hot on high-demand traces (big operating system
memory/cpu time footprint - you cannot "switch off" the GUI). In
comparison, Linux seems to offer more CPU cycles (run it in text mode for
tracing, kill processes you don't need) and more stability (I've seen Linux
systems stay up for weeks under a heavy PovRay load).

What do you use? It seems to me the best combination is design in Windows,
final render in Linux. Anybody else do it this way? Do most guys who use
UNIX/Linux for design and final rendering use an editor only to design, or
which modelling programs do you prefer on UNIX/Linux for PovRay?

I've had frequent problems using PovRay 3.5 under Win98SE and have regularly
left an overnight trace running only to check in the morning and find that
Windows had crashed. Are the newer Windows operating systems more stable
for POV?

Thanks!
-- 
Stefan Viljoen
Software Support Technician
Polar Design Solutions

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Stefan Viljoen wrote:

> Hi all
> 
<snip>

I use Linux all day every day and only reboot the machine to work on the
hardware. Iow, not more then once a year.
Renders can run for days in the background and always in textmode.
I do all editing in Kate (text editor). And for special stuff I write my own
programs.

On the Windows side I have heard very good reports when running under w2k or
XP. Don't know first hand though.
-- 
Ger

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Stefan Viljoen wrote:

> Hi all
> 
> I was just wondering which operating system(s) you use in concocting
> your traces?
> 
> It seems that Windows has nicer programs (Moray for example) for
> designing scenes, but is not so hot on high-demand traces (big
> operating system memory/cpu time footprint - you cannot "switch off"
> the GUI). In comparison, Linux seems to offer more CPU cycles (run
> it in text mode for tracing, kill processes you don't need) and more
> stability (I've seen Linux systems stay up for weeks under a heavy
> PovRay load).
> 
> What do you use? It seems to me the best combination is design in
> Windows, final render in Linux. Anybody else do it this way? Do most
> guys who use UNIX/Linux for design and final rendering use an editor
> only to design, or which modelling programs do you prefer on
> UNIX/Linux for PovRay?
> 
> I've had frequent problems using PovRay 3.5 under Win98SE and have
> regularly left an overnight trace running only to check in the
> morning and find that Windows had crashed. Are the newer Windows
> operating systems more stable for POV?
> 
> Thanks!

new Windows versions are definately more stable. try any NT version.
IMO it makes no sense to install a Linux for rendering only. at the
time as my machines were too slow i did render on a Windows 98SE on a
friends machine. he never had any problems. best results i get
without a modeller with an editor. but this a question of your
predilection. try it for yourself.
i can not believe that rendering results depend on your OS. i have
seen none. someone maybe has other experiences.
for benchmark discussion please take a look under (one line):
http://news.povray.org/povray.unix/thread/<3B122437.35EF8E07
40sycomore.fr>/
and other, too.

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 25 May 2004 18:29:37 +0200, Stefan Viljoen <rylan@<deletehis>  
wrote:
> I was just wondering which operating system(s) you use in concocting your
> traces?

Currently WinXP on the big machine, and Win98 on a smaller one.



> It seems that Windows has nicer programs (Moray for example) for  
> designing
> scenes, but is not so hot on high-demand traces (big operating system
> memory/cpu time footprint - you cannot "switch off" the GUI). In
> comparison, Linux seems to offer more CPU cycles (run it in text mode for
> tracing, kill processes you don't need) and more stability (I've seen  
> Linux
> systems stay up for weeks under a heavy PovRay load).

Windows (especially XP) does have a hefty memory footprint, but during a  
memory-intensive POV-trace most of it can (and will) be paged out; some of  
it gets dropped altogether, e.g. GUI resources.
As for CPU footprint, I haven't seen any system where the GUI is  
inherently demanding when you're not actively using it. If you've got a  
lot of crap running in the background, that might slow things down a  
little, but the GUI itself should not be a problem. Also, nothing prevents  
you from killing unneeded processes in Windows; very few processes are  
actually needed if all you're gonna run is POV-Ray.

Another issue you did not address:
Which system has the faster POV-Ray executable? They are, after all,  
compiled with different tools. I vaguely recall some old posts somewhere  
claiming that the Windows version was noticeably faster than its Linux  
counterpart. Can anyone confirm or deny this? It seems reasonable that the  
Windows version would get an advantage from using the Intel compiler, but  
the world doesn't always work reasonably. Unfortunately, I am not  
currently in a position where I could test this. Anyone out there with a  
WinXP/Linux dual-OS setup?

Note that I'm not in any way advocating Windows over Linux; I'm just  
saying that Windows isn't nearly as bad as some people claim.



> What do you use? It seems to me the best combination is design in  
> Windows,
> final render in Linux. Anybody else do it this way? Do most guys who use
> UNIX/Linux for design and final rendering use an editor only to design,  
> or
> which modelling programs do you prefer on UNIX/Linux for PovRay?

I think that many people develop (model, run test-renders etc.) on their  
primary machine, and then run the final render on some other machine. The  
OSes used are not really important; what matters is that the other machine  
can be left undisturbed for the duration of the render.
Another approach is to simply run a render at low priority in the  
background on your primary machine. Appropriate if the primary machine is  
much faster than any others you have (and assuming the render-time matters  
to you), or if you only have one machine.
I've used both approaches myself. My primary machine is several times  
faster than the other one, but the fans are so loud that I can't have it  
running overnight.



> I've had frequent problems using PovRay 3.5 under Win98SE and have  
> regularly
> left an overnight trace running only to check in the morning and find  
> that
> Windows had crashed. Are the newer Windows operating systems more stable
> for POV?

Newer versions of Windows are more stable in general than older ones  
(possibly excluding WinMe). XP in particular is pretty solid, unless you  
have faulty hardware drivers. More importantly, however, is the fact that  
newer versions have support for newer processor instructions, giving  
better performance to POV-Ray on modern hardware.

I should perhaps mention that I've left POV-Ray running for days under  
Win98 several times without incident. Properly configured and maintained,  
Win98 is pretty stable, especially if all you're doing is running POV-Ray.


-- 
FE

Post a reply to this message

In article <40b38da4@news.povray.org>,
 Stefan Viljoen <rylan@<deletehis> wrote:

> I was just wondering which operating system(s) you use in concocting your
> traces? 

Mac OS X on an iBook G4 for code editing and development, Linux on an 
Athlon XP2400  processor for heavy rendering.


> It seems that Windows has nicer programs (Moray for example) for designing
> scenes, but is not so hot on high-demand traces (big operating system
> memory/cpu time footprint - you cannot "switch off" the GUI). In
> comparison, Linux seems to offer more CPU cycles (run it in text mode for
> tracing, kill processes you don't need) and more stability (I've seen Linux
> systems stay up for weeks under a heavy PovRay load).

My Linux box stayed up for over 116 days at school...had to unplug it to 
move it back home. My laptop was rebooted recently...
Last login: Fri May 21 14:32:26 on ttyp1
Welcome to Darwin!
WhiteThing:~/% uptime
14:00  up 17 days, 19:32, 6 users, load averages: 0.49 0.44 0.32


> What do you use? It seems to me the best combination is design in Windows,
> final render in Linux. Anybody else do it this way? Do most guys who use
> UNIX/Linux for design and final rendering use an editor only to design, or
> which modelling programs do you prefer on UNIX/Linux for PovRay?

jEdit on Mac and Linux, XCode on Mac. No modelers...they're available, I 
just haven't used them. I've been meaning to look at Blender, though, 
and I also have Art Of Illusion and Meshwork installed. There are no 
modelers which allow you to access all the features of POV, and I tend 
to be a coder.


> I've had frequent problems using PovRay 3.5 under Win98SE and have regularly
> left an overnight trace running only to check in the morning and find that
> Windows had crashed. Are the newer Windows operating systems more stable
> for POV?

Certainly. A well-patched 2000 or XP are far better than 95 or 98. 
However, I haven't booted my PC into XP for...probably over a year.

-- 
Christopher James Huff <cja### [at] earthlinknet>
http://home.earthlink.net/~cjameshuff/
POV-Ray TAG: <chr### [at] tagpovrayorg>
http://tag.povray.org/

Post a reply to this message

Fredrik Eriksson wrote:
> 
> Another issue you did not address:
> Which system has the faster POV-Ray executable? They are, after all,  
> compiled with different tools. I vaguely recall some old posts 
> somewhere  claiming that the Windows version was noticeably faster than 
> its Linux  counterpart. 

I remember various posts claiming such things but without any actual 
proove so it mostly stays an urban legend.

I made a quick comparison some time ago, for those who maintain an 
archive of povray.off-topic:

From: Christoph Hormann <chr### [at] gmxde>
Newsgroups: povray.off-topic
Subject: Re: neat but not really off-topic
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 20:44:54 +0200
Message-ID: <c4n0n6$c4q$1@chho.imagico.de>

It showed a difference between the official Windows and Linux versions 
of about 10% in rendering the benchmark scene.  Note the test was far 
from sophisticated, various things (including beta version related 
issues) could have influenced the result.  Especially note that 
depending on the processor you might get similar speed differences from 
different compiler optimization settings on linux (see recent discussion 
in povray.unix).

So in the end it sums up to: Who wants to find a support for his OS 
decision in POV-Ray rendering performance will be able to find one (for 
whatever OS that might be).

Christoph

-- 
POV-Ray tutorials, include files, Sim-POV,
HCR-Edit and more: http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0013390/
Last updated 01 May. 2004 _____./\/^>_*_<^\/\.______

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"Stefan Viljoen" <rylan@<deletehis> wrote in message
news:40b38da4@news.povray.org...
> It seems that Windows has nicer programs (Moray for example) for designing
> scenes, but is not so hot on high-demand traces (big operating system
> memory/cpu time footprint - you cannot "switch off" the GUI).

If you have two (or more) computers, you can use Windows XP (or 2000)
to run GUI-Based design tools such as <insert your favorite here>, and use
a slave computer to do the very long renders.

> In
> comparison, Linux seems to offer more CPU cycles (run it in text mode for
> tracing, kill processes you don't need) and more stability (I've seen
Linux
> systems stay up for weeks under a heavy PovRay load).

I find it not true. Both give you roughly 99% of the CPU when
rendering at lower than normal priority. Just make sure you have
plenty of RAM. Photons and radiosity need lots of memory. Get
1G of ram (or more.) Run PovRay at maximum nice level (on Linux)
or lowest priority (on windows) and you'll be happy :)

As for raw rendering power, both versions (windows and linux) of
PovRay are roughly equivalent. The CPU you'll be using is the key
factor, not the OS/PovRay combination.

> What do you use? It seems to me the best combination is design in Windows,
> final render in Linux. Anybody else do it this way?

I do. I have a slave-box running linux 2.4, 2GHz Athlon XP 2400
CPU + 1G of ram. Works fine with me.

> I've had frequent problems using PovRay 3.5 under Win98SE and have
regularly
> left an overnight trace running only to check in the morning and find that
> Windows had crashed. Are the newer Windows operating systems more stable
> for POV?

XP is about as stable as Linux, as far as I can tell. I have no rogue
drivers causing random blue-screen-o'-death, and the computer runs
for months between reboots. Having a few G of RAM as helps plenty.
The Linux box also runs for months.

Ah, of course, I have UPSes to be safe from random
power failures :p They're not that expensive, you should
definitely get one if you plan to do renders that take
days/weeks/months.


Best,

    S.


>
> Thanks!
> -- 
> Stefan Viljoen
> Software Support Technician
> Polar Design Solutions

Post a reply to this message

> It showed a difference between the official Windows and Linux versions 
> of about 10% in rendering the benchmark scene.  Note the test was far 
> from sophisticated, various things (including beta version related 
> issues) could have influenced the result.  Especially note that 
> depending on the processor you might get similar speed differences from 
> different compiler optimization settings on linux (see recent discussion 
> in povray.unix).

Yes, I can confirm that. The official linux binary is on my machine (P4) 
about 10% slower than a self compiled one (just plain ./configure; 
make...).
I guess this is related to P4 optimizations?
I've got no C compiler under windows, so I can't try if it would speed 
up the windows version too, but I've seen  that the offical windows 
binary runs a bit faster than the official linux binary...

-sascha

Post a reply to this message

Stefan Viljoen
> 
> Hi all
> 
> I was just wondering which operating system(s) you use in concocting your
> traces?

Two WinXP boxes, networked together.

Post a reply to this message

You say "run a lowest priority" under Windows - why would that be fastest?
Typo?
d.

"Steven Pigeon" <ste### [at] videotronca> wrote in message
news:40b3af77$1@news.povray.org...
>
> "Stefan Viljoen" <rylan@<deletehis> wrote in message
> news:40b38da4@news.povray.org...
> > It seems that Windows has nicer programs (Moray for example) for
designing
> > scenes, but is not so hot on high-demand traces (big operating system
> > memory/cpu time footprint - you cannot "switch off" the GUI).
>
> If you have two (or more) computers, you can use Windows XP (or 2000)
> to run GUI-Based design tools such as <insert your favorite here>, and use
> a slave computer to do the very long renders.
>
> > In
> > comparison, Linux seems to offer more CPU cycles (run it in text mode
for
> > tracing, kill processes you don't need) and more stability (I've seen
> Linux
> > systems stay up for weeks under a heavy PovRay load).
>
> I find it not true. Both give you roughly 99% of the CPU when
> rendering at lower than normal priority. Just make sure you have
> plenty of RAM. Photons and radiosity need lots of memory. Get
> 1G of ram (or more.) Run PovRay at maximum nice level (on Linux)
> or lowest priority (on windows) and you'll be happy :)
>
> As for raw rendering power, both versions (windows and linux) of
> PovRay are roughly equivalent. The CPU you'll be using is the key
> factor, not the OS/PovRay combination.
>
> > What do you use? It seems to me the best combination is design in
Windows,
> > final render in Linux. Anybody else do it this way?
>
> I do. I have a slave-box running linux 2.4, 2GHz Athlon XP 2400
> CPU + 1G of ram. Works fine with me.
>
> > I've had frequent problems using PovRay 3.5 under Win98SE and have
> regularly
> > left an overnight trace running only to check in the morning and find
that
> > Windows had crashed. Are the newer Windows operating systems more stable
> > for POV?
>
> XP is about as stable as Linux, as far as I can tell. I have no rogue
> drivers causing random blue-screen-o'-death, and the computer runs
> for months between reboots. Having a few G of RAM as helps plenty.
> The Linux box also runs for months.
>
> Ah, of course, I have UPSes to be safe from random
> power failures :p They're not that expensive, you should
> definitely get one if you plan to do renders that take
> days/weeks/months.
>
>
> Best,
>
>     S.
>
>
> >
> > Thanks!
> > -- 
> > Stefan Viljoen
> > Software Support Technician
> > Polar Design Solutions
>
>

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 25 May 2004 19:48:56 -0400, Dennis Miller <dhm### [at] comcastnet>  
wrote:
> You say "run a lowest priority" under Windows - why would that be  
> fastest?
> Typo?

If you're going to use the computer for other stuff during the render,  
setting POV-Ray to lower priority ensures that other applications remain  
responsive. If the computer is left alone during rendering, it doesn't  
matter what priority it runs at.



-- 
FE

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"Dennis Miller" <dhm### [at] comcastnet> wrote in message
news:40b3db6b$1@news.povray.org...
> You say "run a lowest priority" under Windows - why would that be fastest?
> Typo?
> d.

Nope. I'd hate to see my computer frozen because
the task runs at the highest possible priority. Just a
sensible precaution. If your computer is idle, PovRay
gets all the CPU anyway. If you use your computer,
you don't feel like you're using a 486.

Best,

    S.


Steven Pigeon, Ph. D.
ste### [at] stevenpigeoncom
ste### [at] videotronca

Post a reply to this message

deletehis news:40b38da4@news.povray.org

> I was just wondering which operating system(s) you use in concocting your
> traces? 

For heavy renders - Linux rulez (and other unix family systems probably).

Stability, memory managment, remote access.

-- 
http://www.raf256.com/3d/
Rafal Maj 'Raf256', home page - http://www.raf256.com/me/
Computer Graphics

Post a reply to this message

On 25 May 2004 22:40:39 -0400, "Rafal 'Raf256' Maj" <spa### [at] raf256com> wrote:
> > I was just wondering which operating system(s) you use in concocting your
> > traces? 
>
> For heavy renders - Linux rulez (and other unix family systems probably).
>
> Stability, memory managment, remote access.

While I understand "remote access" issue (which of course has helpers like
SMPOV), I wonder what "stability" or "memory management" in non-linux releases
of POV-Ray are you addressing here.

ABX

Post a reply to this message

abx### [at] abxartpl news:10e8b016cs3c8uiggc9p7u95hesscgs4vq@4ax.com

> While I understand "remote access" issue (which of course has helpers
> like SMPOV), I wonder what "stability" or "memory management" in
> non-linux releases of POV-Ray are you addressing here.

It would be more easy (and cheaper) to install Linux on 64 bit processor to 
access > 4 GB of memory.

Linux has much better memory/swap managment, if You have two phisical HDDs, 
You can put them on different HDD controllers and create swap partition on 
both, and configure system to interlace swap between both drivers with 
would create something like RAID array for SWAP and increase performace up 
to 50% (especialy on serial ATA or better SCASII drivers).

-- 
http://www.raf256.com/3d/
Rafal Maj 'Raf256', home page - http://www.raf256.com/me/
Computer Graphics

Post a reply to this message

In article <Xns94F655C26E01Draf256com@203.29.75.35>, "Rafal 'Raf256' Maj" 
<spa### [at] raf256com> wrote:

> Linux has much better memory/swap managment, if You have two phisical HDDs,
> You can put them on different HDD controllers and create swap partition on
> both, and configure system to interlace swap between both drivers with
> would create something like RAID array for SWAP and increase performace up
> to 50%

Actually, it (RAID 0) will gain little to nothing for a swap partition
because what matters for a swap partition is the seek time of the disk it is
on.  It certainly will not gain anywhere near 50%.  More like 5% if you are
really lucky.

Only is you need plenty of read and write disk access for large blocks of
data (i.e. a server or video storage for editing) you will benefit from RAID
0.  Or if you need to store very large data sets and have no other means to
create a single partition (very unlikely these days).  And even then you
would probably not use RAID 0, but rather RAID 1 or more likely RAID 5.

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

Post a reply to this message

tho### [at] trfde news:40b599b6@news.povray.org

> Only is you need plenty of read and write disk access for large blocks
> of data (i.e. a server or video storage for editing) you will benefit
> from RAID 0. 

Or - huge meshes, photons data, media data (df3) etc. 

I dont say its a common purpose :)

And linux realy is a stable OS (compared to i.e. Windows98,Me) none my 
linux-computeres had crashed (for over half year of using).

-- 
http://www.raf256.com/3d/
Rafal Maj 'Raf256', home page - http://www.raf256.com/me/
Computer Graphics

Post a reply to this message

On 27 May 2004 07:35:05 -0400, "Rafal 'Raf256' Maj" <spa### [at] raf256com> wrote:
> And linux realy is a stable OS (compared to i.e. Windows98,Me) none my 
> linux-computeres had crashed (for over half year of using).

Half year? As far as I remember my Windows 95 did not crashed for 5 years until
I did not changed my machine to XP which did not crashed since buying (November)
too. My WinNT4 at work did not crashed since 6 years when I recived it. IMO it's
up to hygiene of taking care about your OS, about installing new unknown
software, blind changing registers, using wrong drivers, using noname hardware
etc. etc. Alltogether I consider Windows stable for POV-Ray use. Note that I'm
software developer who needs from time to time kill applications, but it never
caused OS crash.

ABX

Post a reply to this message

ABX wrote:

> On 27 May 2004 07:35:05 -0400, "Rafal 'Raf256' Maj" <spa### [at] raf256com>
> wrote:
>> And linux realy is a stable OS (compared to i.e. Windows98,Me) none my
>> linux-computeres had crashed (for over half year of using).
> 
> Half year? As far as I remember my Windows 95 did not crashed for 5 years
> until I did not changed my machine to XP which did not crashed since
> buying (November) too. My WinNT4 at work did not crashed since 6 years
> when I recived it. IMO it's up to hygiene of taking care about your OS,
> about installing new unknown software, blind changing registers, using
> wrong drivers, using noname hardware etc. etc. Alltogether I consider
> Windows stable for POV-Ray use. Note that I'm software developer who needs
> from time to time kill applications, but it never caused OS crash.
> 
> ABX

Hmm - this is highly subjective it seems. I have crashed NT4 four times in
an hour once trying to install IBM NetCommerce...
-- 
Stefan Viljoen
Software Support Technician
Polar Design Solutions

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 27 May 2004 19:27:31 +0200, Stefan Viljoen
<rylan@<deletehis>intekom.co.za> wrote:
> Hmm - this is highly subjective it seems.

Obviously. I was talking about my experience with Windowses. Perhaps I was lucky
but I have mainly good memories :-)

> I have crashed NT4 four times in
> an hour once trying to install IBM NetCommerce...

It must be one of those noname products I was refering because I do not see it
in http://www.ibm.com/products/az/ ;-)

Anyway if it did not crashed under POV-Ray it doesn't change fact that stability
of Windowses for POV-Ray related production is at least good :-)

ABX

Post a reply to this message

On 27 May 2004 02:27:02 -0400, Rafal 'Raf256' Maj <spa### [at] raf256com> wrote:

> Linux has much better memory/swap managment, if You have two phisical  
> HDDs,
> You can put them on different HDD controllers and create swap partition  
> on
> both, and configure system to interlace swap between both drivers with
> would create something like RAID array for SWAP and increase performace  
> up
> to 50% (especialy on serial ATA or better SCASII drivers).


WinXP can also do that, and will in fact do so automatically if you  
allocate swap space on more than one physical drive.


-- 
FE

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