Posted April 25, 2004
---------------------


For the Public Record,

It is with regret that this message serves as official notice that IMBJR's
authorization to connect to news.povray.org has been revoked. This is a
unanimously supported action on the part of the News Server Administration
and was not done without considerable deliberation on our part.

IMBJR has shown through his actions on this news server that he is unable or
unwilling to accept the AUP and he continued posting images he had
repeatedly been told that those images are unacceptable for posting on this
server.  As such he has left us with no alternative but to deny him further
access to this news server.


News Admin.
-----------

Post a reply to this message

Good.

Thank you for doing this.

Jim


"Thorsten Froehlich" <tho### [at] trfde> wrote in message
news:408b936b$1@news.povray.org...
> Posted April 25, 2004
> ---------------------
>
>
> For the Public Record,
>
> It is with regret that this message serves as official notice that IMBJR's
> authorization to connect to news.povray.org has been revoked. This is a
> unanimously supported action on the part of the News Server Administration
> and was not done without considerable deliberation on our part.
>
> IMBJR has shown through his actions on this news server that he is unable
or
> unwilling to accept the AUP and he continued posting images he had
> repeatedly been told that those images are unacceptable for posting on
this
> server.  As such he has left us with no alternative but to deny him
further
> access to this news server.
>
>
> News Admin.
> -----------

Post a reply to this message

tho### [at] trfde news:408b936b$1@news.povray.org

> It is with regret that this message serves as official notice that
> IMBJR's authorization to connect to news.povray.org has been revoked.
> This is a unanimously supported action on the part of the News Server
> Administration and was not done without considerable deliberation on
> our part. 

Hmm well, words like "cuba" "totalitarizm" etc came to my mind... I thought 
PovRAY was more about freedom (of creating, using software, etc), well..
 
> IMBJR has shown through his actions on this news server that he is
> unable or unwilling to accept the AUP and he continued posting images
> he had repeatedly been told that those images are unacceptable for
> posting on this server.  As such he has left us with no alternative
> but to deny him further access to this news server.

I dont recall official statement from Admin that such images are 
untollerable, can You point me to it?

-- 
http://www.raf256.com/3d/
Rafal Maj 'Raf256', home page - http://www.raf256.com/me/
Computer Graphics

Post a reply to this message

no### [at] spamhere news:cobn80hc2rl4b9l93nssqukantvksn3ed4@4ax.com

>>Hmm well, words like "cuba" "totalitarizm" etc came to my mind... I
>>thought PovRAY was more about freedom (of creating, using software,
>>etc), well.. 
> If I were you Rafal, I'd move away from this server pronto. It's
> become a gulag.

Well I think both "sides" acted quite childles, admins should officaly and 
clearly state that creators/mantainers of povray/povrays server do NOT want 
soem kinds of images posted here, and on the other hand if such demand had 
been officialy made from *owners* of server, You realy should respect it 
(and ofcourse keep creating such images but post then in places where 
owners welcome them, put on *Yours* web site, etc).

-- 
http://www.raf256.com/3d/
Rafal Maj 'Raf256', home page - http://www.raf256.com/me/
Computer Graphics

Post a reply to this message

In article <Xns94D691EFC81C0raf256com@203.29.75.35>, "Rafal 'Raf256' Maj" 
<spa### [at] raf256com> wrote:

>> It is with regret that this message serves as official notice that
>> IMBJR's authorization to connect to news.povray.org has been revoked.
>> This is a unanimously supported action on the part of the News Server
>> Administration and was not done without considerable deliberation on
>> our part.
>
> Hmm well, words like "cuba" "totalitarizm" etc came to my mind... I thought
> PovRAY was more about freedom (of creating, using software, etc), well..

You are missing the point.  Please read the message quoted below.

>> IMBJR has shown through his actions on this news server that he is
>> unable or unwilling to accept the AUP and he continued posting images
>> he had repeatedly been told that those images are unacceptable for
>> posting on this server.  As such he has left us with no alternative
>> but to deny him further access to this news server.
>
> I dont recall official statement from Admin that such images are
> untollerable, can You point me to it?

Sure:

From: "Chris Cason" <new### [at] deletethispovrayorg>
Newsgroups: povray.binaries.images,povray.general
Followup-To: povray.general
Subject: Recent postings to povray.binaries.images
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 21:16:07 +1000
Message-ID: <40714064@news.povray.org>
Xref: news.povray.org povray.binaries.images:82439 povray.general:52517

Folks,

I generally take a hands-off approach to the administration of this
news server, in the (correct) belief that it will in general self-
moderate. This has worked fairly well for more than five years. As
a rule I do not read the groups in detail and rely on community and
co-admin's feedback to let me know what's going on.

In particular please be aware that I am not about to get into writing
legalistic AUP's that get ignored (or mis-interpreted) anyhow.

I want to make it clear right now that I will *not* accept any ongoing
behaviour (particularly in the groups outside off-topic) that could
end up in either -

  (a) the web view of these groups being "net-nannied" by blocking
      sites (for all I know this has already happened),

  (b) the site downgraded or mis-classified by search engines such as
      Google due to the presence of discussions on certain topics that
      do not belong here, or

  (c) that would cause average users to want to avoid the server or
      group in question.

In case the fairly "open-ended" nature of the above statement causes
concern, sorry, but I'm not going to turn it into a formal AUP nor am
I willing to argue the definition of what an 'average user' is and what
one would or would not like to see. I am expecting common sense to
prevail here. While I understand that some involved in art like to, on
occasions, 'push the boundary' of taste, and that this is an accepted
practice on some other servers, it is not acceptable here.

Over the years this server has turned into not only a superb form of
support for POV-Ray but also a real community of people, which is a
thing I am happy to see and which I want to preserve. Those who would
choose to disturb that sense of community (whether intentionally or
not) are asked to revise their ways.

For the benefit of new users reading this message and wondering what
right I have to make these statements, or who want to get into some
sort of argument over 'free speech': please be advised that this is
a privately-owned computer system which happens to host some discussion
groups. The old saying "my server, my rules" is a blunt but nevertheless
accurate depiction of the situation. People connect to this system (and
their posts remain on its hard disk) by invitation. Please keep this in
mind.

-- Chris Cason
   News server administrator
   [followups set to povray.general]

Post a reply to this message

Rafal 'Raf256' Maj <spa### [at] raf256com> wrote:
> admins should officaly and 
> clearly state that creators/mantainers of povray/povrays server do NOT want 
> soem kinds of images posted here

  You seem to be missing the point of the AUP.

  As the AUP itself says, "these are general guidelines".

  That means they are not the absolute law everyone (including the owner
of this server) must obey, and that everything not mentioned in it is
allowed, period.

  It means that they are general guidelines which give you an idea about
what you should not do here. If someone misbehaves in such way that many
people get annoyed, each such case is handled individually.

  It also means that if you are acting in an improper way, you will be
told so by the admins, and you should stop that behaviour. The reason
why they can tell you to stop is not because some AUP says so, but because
they own the server and they don't want an individual harassing people here.
As I said above, each case is handled individually.

  If he is told many times "please stop posting this type of images" and
instead of apologizing each time the only response is arrogant flaming
and trolling, the patience of the admins is going to end sooner or later.

  He was given plenty of time to stop that behaviour and his images and
behaviour were tolerated to great extents. He was clearly warned several
times, but he wouldn't stop.

  It's not a question of having some kind of "law" which has explicitly
written every single possible case and which patches every possible
loophole you could possibly find in it. This is not reasonable and
it doesn't make any sense either.

  Read the guidelines in the AUP, follow them, and if you happen to
misbehave in a way that annoys many people you will be told so by the
admins and the simplest thing you can do is to stop behaving like that.

  If you don't agree, simply remember that this is not a public forum.
You are a *guest* here. You should behave as a guest should when inside
the property of another person.

-- 
#macro N(D)#if(D>99)cylinder{M()#local D=div(D,104);M().5,2pigment{rgb M()}}
N(D)#end#end#macro M()<mod(D,13)-6mod(div(D,13)8)-3,10>#end blob{
N(11117333955)N(4254934330)N(3900569407)N(7382340)N(3358)N(970)}//  - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

Rafal 'Raf256' Maj wrote:
> 
> tho### [at] trfde news:408b936b$1@news.povray.org
> 
> > It is with regret that this message serves as official notice that
> > IMBJR's authorization to connect to news.povray.org has been revoked.
> > This is a unanimously supported action on the part of the News Server
> > Administration and was not done without considerable deliberation on
> > our part.
> 
> Hmm well, words like "cuba" "totalitarizm" etc came to my mind... I thought
> PovRAY was more about freedom (of creating, using software, etc), well..

IMBJR has the freedom to post his work elsewhere.  The povray.org servers
are not his property and he has no rights towards them in any way whatsoever.

To compare IMBJR's exclusion from property that is not his, to the policies
and behavior of the Cuban government, is to compare *opposites*.

Regards,
John

Post a reply to this message

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

>>>>> "John" == John VanSickle <evi### [at] hotmailcom> writes:

[... IMBJR has been banned ...]

John> IMBJR has the freedom to post his work elsewhere.  The
John> povray.org servers are not his property and he has no rights
John> towards them in any way whatsoever.

John> To compare IMBJR's exclusion from property that is not his, to
John> the policies and behavior of the Cuban government, is to compare
John> *opposites*.

Precisely.  The comparison would be more apt if IMBJR's license to
use POVRay were to be revoked for generating these images.

If the POVRay license were to say that the software is not to be used
to generate offensive images, and that anyone who violated these terms
would lose their license to use POVRay, then maybe, just maybe, some
of this ranting would be justifiable -- and indeed, I'd learn a
different (lesser if necessary) raytracer, even though my skill level
with POVRay means any pornographic images I generate have the
aesthetic appeal of stick figures.

John> Regards, John

Jack.
(it's the thought that counts.)
- -- 
Jack Twilley
jmt at twilley dot org
http colon slash slash www dot twilley dot org slash tilde jmt slash
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Post a reply to this message

How sad that news.povray.,org is now officially censored.

Are there any existant forums not  subject to peculiar and
religous censorship where artists may post their work without
any fear of irrational opposition?

Pan

Post a reply to this message

pan <pan### [at] syixcom> wrote:
> How sad that news.povray.,org is now officially censored.

  Now? You really think this was the first time?

> Are there any existant forums not  subject to peculiar and
> religous censorship where artists may post their work without
> any fear of irrational opposition?

  Irrational opposition? Are you trying to make a joke?

  Of course it would be useless to ask you to explain why you think
this case has been "irrational", so I won't.

-- 
plane{-x+y,-1pigment{bozo color_map{[0rgb x][1rgb x+y]}turbulence 1}}
sphere{0,2pigment{rgbt 1}interior{media{emission 1density{spherical
density_map{[0rgb 0][.5rgb<1,.5>][1rgb 1]}turbulence.9}}}scale
<1,1,3>hollow}text{ttf"timrom""Warp".1,0translate<-1,-.1,2>}//  - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

"pan" <pan### [at] syixcom> wrote in message news:408c6054@news.povray.org...
> How sad that news.povray.,org is now officially censored.

People love to throw the word "censored" around.

I open my home and allow guests to come in and discuss things within it, and
I provide food and a place to hang their artworks.  The guests know what I
consider acceptable behaviour in my home and they're all rational people and
they feel happy to be there - they have a great time - but one guest becomes
disruptive and starts abusing my other guests and constantly consuming wall
space with artworks that are offensive to me and my guests.  I warn him that
his aggressive and disrespectful behaviour isn't acceptable as a guest in my
home and that if he continues I'll have no choice but to throw him out.  Yet
he continues, knowing that what he is doing is wrong, and taking
entertainment in it.  Is throwing him out censorship?  No, it's exercising
my right as the owner, for the protection of my home, myself, and my guests.

IMBJR knew what constituted acceptable use of this server, and he decided
that he wanted to cause trouble.  Thankfully, people like that aren't
tolerated around here, nor should they be.

> Are there any existant forums not  subject to peculiar and
> religous censorship where artists may post their work without
> any fear of irrational opposition?

He has his own server to post any material he wants, but this isn't his
server.  I don't see how the owner of a server kicking someone off their
server is irrational - they own it, they can do whatever they want with it.
We're just lucky that this server even exists, in my opinion.  99.999% of
users have absolutely no problems on this server because they exercise
common sense and respect the other members of the community.

> Pan

We have a great community of talented, enthusiastic, inspirational and
respectful people here and I'm happy that this action has been taken to
ensure the continued existence of that community.

Lance.

thezone - thezone.firewave.com.au
thehandle - www.thehandle.com

Post a reply to this message

"Thorsten Froehlich" <tho### [at] trfde> wrote in message
news:408b936b$1@news.povray.org...
>
> It is with regret that this message serves as official notice that IMBJR's
> authorization to connect to news.povray.org has been revoked.

I'm fairly certain that's what IMBJR wanted...

-- 
Jeremy
www.beantoad.com

Post a reply to this message

"Warp" <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote in message
news:408c6327@news.povray.org...
> pan <pan### [at] syixcom> wrote:
> > How sad that news.povray.,org is now officially censored.
>
>   Now? You really think this was the first time?
>
The first time someone was prohiibted form news.povray.org
was Giwer, nicht war?


> > Are there any existant forums not  subject to peculiar and
> > religous censorship where artists may post their work without
> > any fear of irrational opposition?
>
>   Irrational opposition? Are you trying to make a joke?
>
Of course not.

The banning was done on the basis of content alone.
You surely are not going to deny that are you?

>   Of course it would be useless to ask you to explain why you think
> this case has been "irrational", so I won't.
>

You probably wouldn't understand the irrationality of banning
a submitter on a content basis so there is no reason to repsond to
your implicit query as to why banning IMBJR is irrational.

Post a reply to this message

"Lance Birch" <-> wrote in message news:408c7354$1@news.povray.org...
> "pan" <pan### [at] syixcom> wrote in message news:408c6054@news.povray.org...
> > How sad that news.povray.,org is now officially censored.
>
> People love to throw the word "censored" around.
>
> I open my home and allow guests to come in and discuss things within it,
and
> I provide food and a place to hang their artworks.  The guests know what I
> consider acceptable behaviour in my home and they're all rational people
and
> they feel happy to be there - they have a great time - but one guest
becomes
> disruptive and starts abusing my other guests and constantly consuming
wall
> space with artworks that are offensive to me and my guests.  I warn him
that
> his aggressive and disrespectful behaviour isn't acceptable as a guest in
my
> home and that if he continues I'll have no choice but to throw him out.
Yet
> he continues, knowing that what he is doing is wrong, and taking
> entertainment in it.  Is throwing him out censorship?  No, it's exercising
> my right as the owner, for the protection of my home, myself, and my
guests.
>

Yes, the owner of news.povray.org may exercise total contro, over the
content of what is posted. No argumenbt there.
However, ownership of a news group server does not necissarily invalidate
the idea that banning a a contributer solely on the basis of content
is irrational.

> IMBJR knew what constituted acceptable use of this server, and he decided
> that he wanted to cause trouble.  Thankfully, people like that aren't
> tolerated around here, nor should they be.
>

What is acceptable is clearly up to Chris Cason alone.
What is the prupose of denying that the AUP is subkective and capricious?
Clearly, Chris has the right to deny certain content from being posted
to his news server, but that rioght, by itself, does not provide compelte
absolution from criticism.

> > Are there any existant forums not  subject to peculiar and
> > religous censorship where artists may post their work without
> > any fear of irrational opposition?
>
> He has his own server to post any material he wants, but this isn't his
> server.  I don't see how the owner of a server kicking someone off their
> server is irrational - they own it, they can do whatever they want with
it.
> We're just lucky that this server even exists, in my opinion.  99.999% of
> users have absolutely no problems on this server because they exercise
> common sense and respect the other members of the community.
>

Yes, I agree. But, twhat you term 'common sense' is nothing but
Chris' version. Let's not deny the truth of that. To ascribe one
person's view of what is 'proper' to some general definition is
not logical or rational.
Some people actually do view  natural sexual content as both
healthy and beneficial. YMMV.

> > Pan
>
> We have a great community of talented, enthusiastic, inspirational and
> respectful people here and I'm happy that this action has been taken to
> ensure the continued existence of that community.
>
The community will suffer to the extent that a small number of nosiy
objectors can successfully demand censorship of images that they,
the minority, find uncomfortable or in discordance with their version
of what is "acceptable".

How can you deny that some, including  myself, experience sadness
that news.povray.org is now characterized as having a narrow
and conservative threshold of acceptabiltity.

Remember, no one bothered to survey the actual feelings of all of those
who read news.povray.org. All that has happened is that a very small
number of people have successfully caused a banning of a poster
of sexual material. Who knows how many of us agree with the
noisy minority?

Pan

Post a reply to this message

pan wrote:
> 
> How sad that news.povray.,org is now officially censored.

Censorship is the coercive suppression of a viewpoint,
and is enforced by the seizure of the suppressed person's
life, property, or freedom.  None of these things has
happened to IMBJR.

> Are there any existant forums not  subject to peculiar and
> religous censorship where artists may post their work without
> any fear of irrational opposition?

Yes, I remember all of the bible verses quoted in opposition
to IMBJR's posting.  Oh, wait, there weren't any.

I guess it wasn't religious censorship.

Regards,
John

Post a reply to this message

Thorsten Froehlich wrote:
> 
> Posted April 25, 2004
> ---------------------
> 
> For the Public Record,
> 
> It is with regret that this message serves as official notice that IMBJR's
> authorization to connect to news.povray.org has been revoked. This is a
> unanimously supported action on the part of the News Server Administration
> and was not done without considerable deliberation on our part.
> 
> IMBJR has shown through his actions on this news server that he is unable or
> unwilling to accept the AUP and he continued posting images he had
> repeatedly been told that those images are unacceptable for posting on this
> server.  As such he has left us with no alternative but to deny him further
> access to this news server.

Those whose ISP includes the Usenet group alt.binaries.3d.poser, and have the
time, may want to go over there and see what's being said about this.

Regards,
John

Post a reply to this message

pan wrote:


> 
> How can you deny that some, including  myself, experience sadness
> that news.povray.org is now characterized as having a narrow
> and conservative threshold of acceptabiltity.
> 

You have to have more faith in your own beliefs and values.  Your 
reaction is not entirely wrong but be careful not to react to 
intolerance in kind.  Question why you seek to have your values 
validated by news.povray.org.  News.povray.org is what it is.  Different 
people, different views,... a loose set of objectives that do, in fact, 
limit content, and behavior, in some ways.  Make your case as rationally 
as you can, then leave it at that.  It is expecting too much to expect 
personal validation from the situation. This is only a victory for 
narrowmindedness if you choose to accept it as such.  Stay open minded 
yourself.  That is all that you can really do.

Post a reply to this message

"John VanSickle" <evi### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message
news:408C8EF8.D9D58DD2@hotmail.com...

> Those whose ISP includes the Usenet group alt.binaries.3d.poser, and have the
> time, may want to go over there and see what's being said about this.

I didn't see any mention of it in that group. Is there a particular thread I missed or
perhaps
a different group than the one you mentioned?

Post a reply to this message

In article <408c6054@news.povray.org> , "pan" <pan### [at] syixcom> wrote:

> How sad that news.povray.,org is now officially censored.

As was pointed out to you already, if an owner kicks someone out of their
property this is their right.

BTW, the very fact of allowing this discussion should make it absolutely
clear that your statement is incorrect...

> Are there any existant forums not  subject to peculiar and
> religous censorship where artists may post their work without
> any fear of irrational opposition?

There is no religious motive at all.  As you obviously do not know the final
reason for the ban of IMBJR, you are not in the position to to call it
"irrational".  And if you consider the whole POV-Team and TAG "irrational"
in their support for this action, this is your right, but don't expect to
find many to agree with you.

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich
e-mail: mac### [at] povrayorg

I am a member of the POV-Ray Team.
Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

Post a reply to this message

In article <408c7d32$1@news.povray.org> , "Jeremy M. Praay" 
<sla### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:

> "Thorsten Froehlich" <tho### [at] trfde> wrote in message
> news:408b936b$1@news.povray.org...
>>
>> It is with regret that this message serves as official notice that IMBJR's
>> authorization to connect to news.povray.org has been revoked.
>
> I'm fairly certain that's what IMBJR wanted...

Yes, I am fairly certain about it as well.

Let me take this opportunity to summarise the events that made this action
on our part necessary.  I would also like to express that we were very
reluctant to take this action, but we had simply no choice:

As the reason has not been stated, and some here seem to believe it was due
to the content of various images, the reason was actually the content of one
image, a content unacceptable in a public forum open to minors.  It is the
image that caused the original discussion about unacceptable content.  And
the initial response of the Chris Cason was to see where it goes.  For the
majority of users of this server community pressure is sufficient to let
them behave as a guest on this server, and never has and never will any
person be banned just because they made one mistake.

However, IMBJR posted the same content, modified as a GIF again.  This went
on with several other images.  Those images were not new work, he simply
took them from his website and posted them here for storage and rejected
interest in any discussion of them.  At this point Chris Cason had no choice
but to formally warn him that such behavior is unacceptable for various
reasons.  This warning was issued with full support from the POV-Team and
TAG.  As you know the POV-Team and TAG are composed of people from all over
the world with different backgrounds.  And still we all reached the same
conclusion that a warning was needed.  The reasons were made clear and IMBJR
said he would comply.

So, two days ago he posted the image that caused the original controversy
again.  This time in bright colors, but the same content of course.  The
image was removed by us.  The next day he posted it again as he had realised
the image had been removed.  Without doubt IMBJR was fully aware that
posting the same image that was deemed inappropriate for posting on this
server twice before.  As such, he posted it only for the one reason, to
provoke controversy a third time.  This is not acceptable use of the this
server, and for this he was banned.

After two clear warnings.  One from the community, one from the owner of
this server.

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

Post a reply to this message

"pan" <pan### [at] syixcom> wrote in message news:408c86dd@news.povray.org...

> To ascribe one person's view of what is 'proper' to some
> general definition is not logical or rational.

No one has tried to ascribe one person's view of what is proper to some
general definition or to state that one person's capacity for understanding
negates their ability to comprehend irrationality, with the exception of
you.  Your argument is therefore self-contradictory and you shouldn't expect
that I will respond to it in the future.

The reasons for IMBJR's ban have been clearly stated, yet you seem to have
delusions that IMBJR was banned for reasons other than those for which he
was.  I can only conclude that you are trying to further a personal agenda,
but you won't gain abetment of it from me.

Lance.

thezone - thezone.firewave.com.au
thehandle - www.thehandle.com

Post a reply to this message

In article <408c86dd@news.povray.org> , "pan" <pan### [at] syixcom> wrote:

> Yes, I agree. But, twhat you term 'common sense' is nothing but
> Chris' version. Let's not deny the truth of that. To ascribe one
> person's view of what is 'proper' to some general definition is
> not logical or rational.
> Some people actually do view  natural sexual content as both
> healthy and beneficial. YMMV.

The POV-Team and TAG are not "Chris Cason", and neither one person alone.
Chris happens to be the owner of this server and as such will act upon
advice from all POV-Team and TAG members as he has the ultimate authority to
do so on his server.  It seems to be pretty clear to everybody else around
here, and Chris made that point crystal clear as well.

Please note that IMBJR explicitly stated that his images were not posted for
discussion and that he was not interested feedback whatsoever.  Further,
most of them were already on his website and posted in these newsgroups for
the sole purpose of destroying the sense of community.  The purpose of
povray.binaries.images is to get feedback about images.  As such, he was
already ignoring the purpose of the group povray.binaries.images, yet we did
not even take formal notice of this behavior, nor was this the reason for
the ban.

This may very well be your opinion.  It should be noted that the images
IMBJR posted were absolutely not as which you describe them.  And this was
not the reason for the ban either!  It is as simple as that he had been
asked not to post a specific image or its variations again due to reasons
outlined by the owner of this server.  He ignored this request, twice.  As
he was a guest on this server, this  behavior was unacceptable and the
reason for the ban.

In conclusion, just as we accept that you have the right to invite as well
as deny access to anybody to your property, we expect that you accept that
we have exactly the same right.  We do not ask you to be happy with it, we
just ask you to accept that you are a guest and behave as a guest.

I am sorry if our attitude causes you to not wish to continue to visit this
server,

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich
e-mail: mac### [at] povrayorg

I am a member of the POV-Ray Team.
Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

Post a reply to this message

> In article <408c86dd@news.povray.org> , "pan" <pan### [at] syixcom> wrote:
>
> > Yes, I agree. But, twhat you term 'common sense' is nothing but
> > Chris' version. Let's not deny the truth of that. To ascribe one
> > person's view of what is 'proper' to some general definition is
> > not logical or rational.
> > Some people actually do view  natural sexual content as both
> > healthy and beneficial. YMMV.

No matter how healthy or beneficial something is, there is a time & place
for everything.
Posting images with adult content on a newsgroup that is not specifically
adult themed is inappropriate, and that should be obvious. As obvious as
posting images in a format that the majority of posters were unable to
view, then insisting that the world should get up to speed and get the
'correct' plugin.


"Thorsten Froehlich" <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
<snip>
> Please note that IMBJR explicitly stated that his images were not posted for
> discussion and that he was not interested feedback whatsoever.  Further,
> most of them were already on his website and posted in these newsgroups for
> the sole purpose of destroying the sense of community.  The purpose of
> povray.binaries.images is to get feedback about images.  As such, he was
> already ignoring the purpose of the group povray.binaries.images, yet we did
> not even take formal notice of this behavior, nor was this the reason for
> the ban.

Well, since I quit bothering to view any of his posts after his jpeg2000
binge, I missed all the images in question, yet I approve of the ban, so
obviously content alone was not a factor. This is not a forum for
art/sexuality/religion/philosophy, it is a forum for PovRay. If you aren't
posting for reasons having to do with PovRay, don't post here.

>
> I am sorry if our attitude causes you to not wish to continue to visit this
> server

That would certainly seem irrational & extreme to me.  I commend the admins
for removing such a disruption.

RG

Post a reply to this message

Thorsten Froehlich wrote:

> 
> Please note that IMBJR explicitly stated that his images were not posted for
> discussion and that he was not interested feedback whatsoever.  Further,
> most of them were already on his website and posted in these newsgroups for
> the sole purpose of destroying the sense of community.  The purpose of
> povray.binaries.images is to get feedback about images.  As such, he was
> already ignoring the purpose of the group povray.binaries.images, yet we did
> not even take formal notice of this behavior, nor was this the reason for
> the ban.
> 

His actions were entirely exploitive, I agree.  His banishmesnt is 
entirely fair, reasonable, and justified.  Anyone who finds personal 
vindication in his fate, however, has my personal disapproval.

Post a reply to this message

He joined the club...

He came in...

He peed on the sofa...

He punched the manager in the face...

Now why would they ban a fellow like that?

P.S. Please dont interpret this as literal, its a figurative example.

Post a reply to this message

"Felbrigg" <som### [at] microsoftcom> wrote in message
news:408d34dd@news.povray.org...
> He joined the club...

    ...some time ago now. He came here around two/three years ago and
he posted what I thought were *really* good images AFAICR. I can only
say that between then and recently, he changed attitude.

   ~Steve~

Post a reply to this message

Program ended abnormally on 26/04/2004 13:41, Due to a catastrophic St. error:

> "Felbrigg" <som### [at] microsoftcom> wrote in message
> news:408d34dd@news.povray.org...
> 
>>He joined the club...
> 
> 
>     ...some time ago now. He came here around two/three years ago and
> he posted what I thought were *really* good images AFAICR. I can only
> say that between then and recently, he changed attitude.

Not really.  Even then, he basically said that he didn't care about feedback 
from his pics and that he viewed the news.povray.org server as a kind of free 
gallery where he could dump his stuff.

He did have a few interesting images.


-- 
/*Francois Labreque*/#local a=x+y;#local b=x+a;#local c=a+b;#macro P(F//
/*    flabreque    */L)polygon{5,F,F+z,L+z,L,F pigment{rgb 9}}#end union
/*        @        */{P(0,a)P(a,b)P(b,c)P(2*a,2*b)P(2*b,b+c)P(b+c,<2,3>)
/*   videotron.ca  */}camera{orthographic location<6,1.25,-6>look_at a }

Post a reply to this message

pan <pan### [at] syixcom> wrote:
> The banning was done on the basis of content alone.
> You surely are not going to deny that are you?

  What else can you ban a person for if not the content of what he posts?

-- 
#macro N(D)#if(D>99)cylinder{M()#local D=div(D,104);M().5,2pigment{rgb M()}}
N(D)#end#end#macro M()<mod(D,13)-6mod(div(D,13)8)-3,10>#end blob{
N(11117333955)N(4254934330)N(3900569407)N(7382340)N(3358)N(970)}//  - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

"Francois Labreque" <fla### [at] videotronca> wrote in message
news:408d505d$1@news.povray.org...
> Program ended abnormally on 26/04/2004 13:41, Due to a catastrophic
St. error:
>
> > "Felbrigg" <som### [at] microsoftcom> wrote in message
> > news:408d34dd@news.povray.org...
> >
> >>He joined the club...
> >
> >
> >     ...some time ago now. He came here around two/three years ago
and
> > he posted what I thought were *really* good images AFAICR. I can
only
> > say that between then and recently, he changed attitude.
>
> Not really.  Even then, he basically said that he didn't care about
feedback
> from his pics and that he viewed the news.povray.org server as a
kind of free
> gallery where he could dump his stuff.

> He did have a few interesting images.

 I agree, but "changed attitude" with what he was 'trying to depict'
in his images is what I meant, in respect of the images he was posting
then, and recently. (Yes, he still did the Dobbs thing back then, and
some of those were good, but then he also produced what I would call
'similar' images to a lot of others here, and some were really good -
that's the part that I liked about him).

  Let it be known that I'm not defending him in any way. In the end, I
too think that he was "looking for it" for want of better words, <and
obvious, for whatever reasons they were>, but I'm with another here,
no-one should vindicate and it should be laid to rest 'now'.

   ~Steve~



> /*Francois Labreque*/#local a=x+y;#local b=x+a;#local c=a+b;#macro
P(F//
> /*    flabreque    */L)polygon{5,F,F+z,L+z,L,F pigment{rgb 9}}#end
union
> /*        @
*/{P(0,a)P(a,b)P(b,c)P(2*a,2*b)P(2*b,b+c)P(b+c,<2,3>)
> /*   videotron.ca  */}camera{orthographic location<6,1.25,-6>look_at
a }

Post a reply to this message

> > He joined the club...
> 
>     ...some time ago now. He came here around two/three years ago and
> he posted what I thought were *really* good images AFAICR. I can only
> say that between then and recently, he changed attitude.

I remembered him from last time, and what happened last time is that he 
turned up and flooded p.b.i with lots of relatively large posts.  People 
on modems objected.  He more or less said "tough". He sort of hung 
around for a while, then bimbled off elsewhere.

My recollection may be a bit hazy though he showed a similar disregard 
for the norms of the server then as he did this time.

My only £0.02 on this subject.

Jamie.

Post a reply to this message

In article <408d49c3@news.povray.org>, "St." <dot### [at] dotcom> wrote:

> "Felbrigg" <som### [at] microsoftcom> wrote in message
> news:408d34dd@news.povray.org...
> > He joined the club...
> 
>     ...some time ago now. He came here around two/three years ago and
> he posted what I thought were *really* good images AFAICR. I can only
> say that between then and recently, he changed attitude.

I think you are confusing him with someone else. When he first came 
here, he started posting image after image, most of which didn't look 
like he put any great effort into. Not simply inexperience with the 
software, just plain shoddy work. That's not a problem with the server 
admins, but he started posting dozens of images at a time, and chewing 
people out for daring to comment on them. According to him, he was using 
the server for *storage*, not as a place to post things for discussion. 
When people objected, he refused to stop, on the grounds that the 
povray.org server was a public place and he could do what he wanted on 
it. He has started flame wars almost every time he posted. He was 
eventually banned because of a single incident, but he had a long 
history of inappropriate and antisocial behavior.

This isn't censorship, it's kicking out a rude and disruptive guest.

-- 
Christopher James Huff <cja### [at] earthlinknet>
http://home.earthlink.net/~cjameshuff/
POV-Ray TAG: <chr### [at] tagpovrayorg>
http://tag.povray.org/

Post a reply to this message

Ken wrote:
> 
> "John VanSickle" <evi### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message
news:408C8EF8.D9D58DD2@hotmail.com...
> 
> > Those whose ISP includes the Usenet group alt.binaries.3d.poser, and have the
> > time, may want to go over there and see what's being said about this.
> 
> I didn't see any mention of it in that group. Is there a particular thread I missed
or perhaps
> a different group than the one you mentioned?

I dunno.  The last time I had an ISP with that group, he hung out there.

Regards,
John

Post a reply to this message

Ken wrote:

> "John VanSickle" <evi### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message
news:408C8EF8.D9D58DD2@hotmail.com...
> 
> 
>>Those whose ISP includes the Usenet group alt.binaries.3d.poser, and have the
>>time, may want to go over there and see what's being said about this.
> 
> 
> I didn't see any mention of it in that group. Is there a particular thread I missed
or perhaps
> a different group than the one you mentioned?

I think he's hanging around in the alt.slack groups:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=POV-Ray+group%3Aalt.slack.*

-- 
Tor Olav
http://subcube.net
http://subcube.com

Post a reply to this message

"pan" <pan### [at] syixcom> wrote in message news:408c6054@news.povray.org...
> How sad that news.povray.,org is now officially censored.
>
> Are there any existant forums not  subject to peculiar and
> religous censorship where artists may post their work without
> any fear of irrational opposition?

I think you're missing the point (as well as being absurd). "Are there... forums
...  where artists may post their work without any fear of irrational
opposition?" - Uh, well, yes, a few.. ;)

Speaking personally, I would have no objection to viewing images with extreme
sexual content (whether I want to view them is a different matter, but I
certainly don't object). However, these newsgroups are one of the places on the
internet where respect for other's opinions and standards is an implicit
responsibility of those using the groups. IMBJR not only refused to recognise
this, but deliberately, IMHO, subverted this understanding.

I am glad that there are many places on the internet where people may post w/o
restraint or consideration, but I'm also glad that there are places where one
may not. To demand that all public forums work w/o restraint is, IMHO, a more
serious act of suppression the banning of one arrogant troll.

Post a reply to this message

In article <408db742@news.povray.org> , Tor Olav Kristensen 
<tor### [at] TOBEREMOVEDhotmailcom>  wrote:

>> I didn't see any mention of it in that group. Is there a particular
> thread I missed or perhaps
>> a different group than the one you mentioned?
>
> I think he's hanging around in the alt.slack groups:
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups?q=POV-Ray+group%3Aalt.slack.*

And for some reason Google is not carrying his posts.  Google does have very
old ones from him in that group, however.

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

Post a reply to this message

Program ended abnormally on 27/04/2004 08:47, Due to a catastrophic Thorsten 
Froehlich error:
> In article <408db742@news.povray.org> , Tor Olav Kristensen 
> <tor### [at] TOBEREMOVEDhotmailcom>  wrote:
> 
> 
>>>I didn't see any mention of it in that group. Is there a particular
>>
>>thread I missed or perhaps
>>
>>>a different group than the one you mentioned?
>>
>>I think he's hanging around in the alt.slack groups:
>>
>>http://groups.google.com/groups?q=POV-Ray+group%3Aalt.slack.*
> 
> 
> And for some reason Google is not carrying his posts.  Google does have very
> old ones from him in that group, however.

I think he had "X-no-archive: yes." in his headers.


-- 
/*Francois Labreque*/#local a=x+y;#local b=x+a;#local c=a+b;#macro P(F//
/*    flabreque    */L)polygon{5,F,F+z,L+z,L,F pigment{rgb 9}}#end union
/*        @        */{P(0,a)P(a,b)P(b,c)P(2*a,2*b)P(2*b,b+c)P(b+c,<2,3>)
/*   videotron.ca  */}camera{orthographic location<6,1.25,-6>look_at a }

Post a reply to this message

"Francois Labreque" <fla### [at] videotronca> wrote in message
news:408e6d49$1@news.povray.org...
> Program ended abnormally on 27/04/2004 08:47, Due to a catastrophic
Thorsten
> Froehlich error:
> > In article <408db742@news.povray.org> , Tor Olav Kristensen
> > <tor### [at] TOBEREMOVEDhotmailcom>  wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>I didn't see any mention of it in that group. Is there a particular
> >>
> >>thread I missed or perhaps
> >>
> >>>a different group than the one you mentioned?
> >>
> >>I think he's hanging around in the alt.slack groups:
> >>
> >>http://groups.google.com/groups?q=POV-Ray+group%3Aalt.slack.*
> >
> >
> > And for some reason Google is not carrying his posts.  Google does have
very
> > old ones from him in that group, however.
>
> I think he had "X-no-archive: yes." in his headers.

Now why would he want to do that? ;)

Lance.

thezone - thezone.firewave.com.au
thehandle - www.thehandle.com

Post a reply to this message

"Thorsten Froehlich" <tho### [at] trfde> wrote in message
news:408b936b$1@news.povray.org...
> Posted April 25, 2004
> ---------------------
>
>
> For the Public Record,
>
> It is with regret that this message serves as official notice that IMBJR's
> authorization to connect to news.povray.org has been revoked. This is a
> unanimously supported action on the part of the News Server Administration
> and was not done without considerable deliberation on our part.
>
This is excellent news.  The person in question has done nothing but attempt
to disrupt, posting in formats that are not yet generally supported, and
with materials, that fortunately I could not see because of this format,
while insisting that he has a right to post on what is in reality, a
privately owned server.  (Yes, I've read the entire thread.)  Chris has
every right to ban anyone he sees as being disruptive and generally
unacceptable.  As it was not his decision alone is all the more commendable.
This is one of the few graphics groups that you read not consisting mostly
of compliments to what are in many cases mediocre or less, images.

There is no censorship, only persons having the responsibility for
maintaining order in the group doing what they see as best for the group.

My support is with the admins.  If I want to see smut, I'll go to
renderotica.

Greybeard.

Post a reply to this message

>   If I want to see smut, I'll go to
> renderotica.
> 

<Groan>

Post a reply to this message

It sounds like this guy was cut a LOT of slack before finally taking 
this action. Chris, the POV-Ray team and TAG should be commended for the 
deliberate restraint demonstrated during this incident. A lot of other 
sites would either overreact in a knee-jerk fashion or would let things 
go on willy-nilly, which in the long run would only invite chaos.

------------------------

Scott Gammans
http://www.scottgammans.com
Ashburn, VA

========================

Thorsten Froehlich wrote:
> In article <408c7d32$1@news.povray.org> , "Jeremy M. Praay" 
> <sla### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
> 
> 
>>"Thorsten Froehlich" <tho### [at] trfde> wrote in message
>>news:408b936b$1@news.povray.org...
>>
>>>It is with regret that this message serves as official notice that IMBJR's
>>>authorization to connect to news.povray.org has been revoked.
>>
>>I'm fairly certain that's what IMBJR wanted...
> 
> 
> Yes, I am fairly certain about it as well.
> 
> Let me take this opportunity to summarise the events that made this action
> on our part necessary.  I would also like to express that we were very
> reluctant to take this action, but we had simply no choice:
> 
> As the reason has not been stated, and some here seem to believe it was due
> to the content of various images, the reason was actually the content of one
> image, a content unacceptable in a public forum open to minors.  It is the
> image that caused the original discussion about unacceptable content.  And
> the initial response of the Chris Cason was to see where it goes.  For the
> majority of users of this server community pressure is sufficient to let
> them behave as a guest on this server, and never has and never will any
> person be banned just because they made one mistake.
> 
> However, IMBJR posted the same content, modified as a GIF again.  This went
> on with several other images.  Those images were not new work, he simply
> took them from his website and posted them here for storage and rejected
> interest in any discussion of them.  At this point Chris Cason had no choice
> but to formally warn him that such behavior is unacceptable for various
> reasons.  This warning was issued with full support from the POV-Team and
> TAG.  As you know the POV-Team and TAG are composed of people from all over
> the world with different backgrounds.  And still we all reached the same
> conclusion that a warning was needed.  The reasons were made clear and IMBJR
> said he would comply.
> 
> So, two days ago he posted the image that caused the original controversy
> again.  This time in bright colors, but the same content of course.  The
> image was removed by us.  The next day he posted it again as he had realised
> the image had been removed.  Without doubt IMBJR was fully aware that
> posting the same image that was deemed inappropriate for posting on this
> server twice before.  As such, he posted it only for the one reason, to
> provoke controversy a third time.  This is not acceptable use of the this
> server, and for this he was banned.
> 
> After two clear warnings.  One from the community, one from the owner of
> this server.
> 
>     Thorsten
> 
> ____________________________________________________
> Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
> e-mail: tho### [at] trfde
> 
> Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

Post a reply to this message