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If I were to make available a scene file (flocking algorithm, posable blob
character) I would have these opinions about what ought to govern use of
the file:
1) no "OFFENSIVE" copyright. If someone took my blob character and made a
TV commercial for which they were paid a million bucks, I'd be happy for
them, because I had contributed my code in the spirit of a freeware
community.
2) adamant "DEFENSIVE" copyright. If someone were to take my *code* and to
incorporate it into software that they then earned $100 on, I'd be ticked.
I'd also hope that my public posting could prevent some corporation like
Alias a few years from now from, say, getting a software patent <gag> on
"all flocking algorithms using constant acceleration." Or suppose the guy
who made the TV commercial with my blobman then tries to exercise some kind
of right of royalty to images made using the blob character he or she
**popularized**, or get a software patent on my code.
These three uses of my material IMHO would go against the spirit of a
freeware community.
My philosophy is somewhat similar AFAICS to the povray EULA, where one can
make any commercial use of the generated images-- just don't try to make
any money off of the code itself. I have a scene file included with pov
3.5, where I put the words "Copyright Greg M. Johnson.", and this is what I
meant when I wrote that.
Q: Is this already the policy for example with postings to p.t.s-f.?
Q: Is this the way things should be?
Q: Do we need to come up with some sort of common statement where we can
say, "Use of this code is governed by the Povray Freeware Contributors
Community Copyright Statement?"
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"Greg M. Johnson" wrote:
>
> [...]
> I have a scene file included with pov
> 3.5, where I put the words "Copyright Greg M. Johnson.", and this is what I
> meant when I wrote that.
The conditions for the sample scenes are clearly stated in povlegal -
everything apart from the 'incdemo' scenes is not allowed to be used in
derivative work but purely for enjoyment and studies.
>
> Q: Is this already the policy for example with postings to p.t.s-f.?
When posting some code in these newsgroups you maintain the copyright on
it, unless you write something different nobody is allowed to use it in
own work. Of course there are a lot of people where i know that they
generally allow others to use code posted in these newsgroups.
> Q: Is this the way things should be?
I think so. Everyone should be free to decide on the terms of use for his
code.
> Q: Do we need to come up with some sort of common statement where we can
> say, "Use of this code is governed by the Povray Freeware Contributors
> Community Copyright Statement?"
I think the demands on such a licence will differ so there is not much
point in creating a standard.
Your idea for a licence seems somewhat difficult in practice. You can
surely restrict the commercial redistribution of modified versions of your
code (like the POV-Ray source code) but it would be difficult to disallow
others to modify your code for 'in house' use (unless you disallow the use
completely of course).
Concerning making money 'of the code itself' - there will rarely be
someone trying to make money with a POV-Ray source file itself and since
you can't copyright the idea any restrictions won't prevent anyone from
using the idea behind your flocking system in his own work.
Christoph
--
POV-Ray tutorials, include files, Sim-POV,
HCR-Edit and more: http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0013390/
Last updated 31 Dec. 2002 _____./\/^>_*_<^\/\.______
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"Christoph Hormann" <chr### [at] gmx de> wrote in message
news:3E2C2AE4.563A5005@gmx.de...
>
> The conditions for the sample scenes are clearly stated in povlegal -
> everything apart from the 'incdemo' scenes is not allowed to be used in
> derivative work but purely for enjoyment and studies.
>
So no one may make a work that is derivative and say uses the FindKnee macro
and then publishes a commercial off of it?
>
> Your idea for a licence seems somewhat difficult in practice. You can
> surely restrict the commercial redistribution of modified versions of your
> code
I actually don't mind rewritten versions of "my" code. Just like I hope JvS
doesn't mind us rewriting the FindKnee macro....
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3e2c1ca3@news.povray.org...
> "all flocking algorithms using constant acceleration." Or suppose the
guy
> who made the TV commercial with my blobman then tries to exercise some
kind
Just a question: did someone actually make a TV commercial with your blobman
or is it a "what if" scenario?
IMHO, fussing about copyright issues on POV-Ray SDL code is overkill. Keep
it simple enough so that other users don't fret about doing something wrong
by using your code.
POV-Ray itself has a commercial value ; the images people do can have a
commercial value ; people can get hired or paid because of the sort of
wonders they can make with the SDL.
But since our favorite software *** cannot *** be part of the workflow of
production houses for well-known reasons, the commercial value of SDL code
itself is zero. A copyright notice is necessary (it's there to remind the
user that someone has a copyright on it) but I just don't think there's such
a shortage of CG researchers and developers that companies need to plunder
POV-Ray scenes for bits of code about flocking algorithms, particle systems,
blobby characters, trees or automatic plumbing systems when all of this
already exists in professional software and is already usable in production
environments. Companies may "borrow" ideas of course (I've had a few
questions from companies concerning my macros or the way I coded scenes for
instance) but reusing code doesn't make sense, and in the unlikely event
they'd borrow the algorithm I don't see that any copyright notice would
protect you anyway. If someone created some SDL code so valuable to get a
company interested, the real value here would be more the talent of the
coder than the code itself. After all, POV-Ray has been around for more than
10 years and if it had been possible to make a fortune out of it we'd
already know ;-)
G.
--
**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters
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I was one of those who came down hard on the first draft of Rune's policy
for his particle system, and I still bristle at "no commercial use"
provisions on some code. But then I realized that there would be some uses
of my code that I'd not like either. And I do dream of being "prior art"
that prevents a company from getting an abusively over-reaching patent on
something (rather than they steal from me, per se.)
The purpose of my note was to find a middle ground between "no commercial
use" and something on the other extreme. Right now, I'm like the guy with a
leaky boat who goes fishing every other weekend but dreams of becoming a
commercial fisherman. I am thinking about uploading some images to zazzle
and so have been avoiding code with these provisions.
"Gilles Tran" <git### [at] wanadoofr> wrote in message
news:3e2ca537@news.povray.org...
> But since our favorite software *** cannot *** be part of the
> workflow of production houses for well-known reasons,
>
Uh, really?
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"Greg M. Johnson" <gregj:-)565### [at] aolcom> wrote in message
news:3e2d48c5$1@news.povray.org...
> provisions on some code. But then I realized that there would be some uses
> of my code that I'd not like either. And I do dream of being "prior art"
The same will go for all - I have some sort of copyright notice on my website,
but I'm thinking of removing it. The intent was to prevent my resources possibly
being used by an organisation of which I did not approve, but the more I think
about it, the more dubious such an intent seems....
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3e2d48c5$1@news.povray.org...
> "Gilles Tran" <git### [at] wanadoofr> wrote in message
> news:3e2ca537@news.povray.org...
> > But since our favorite software *** cannot *** be part of the
> > workflow of production houses for well-known reasons,
> Uh, really?
In a nutshell:
POV-Ray SDL as a modelling language : unusable outside POV
POV-Ray as a renderer : no direct support for industry formats (RIB etc.)
This alone leaves 0 room for POV-Ray use in a regular 3D production
workflow.
I'm not mentioning other reasons related to features, speed, training etc.
POV-Ray can be perfectly valuable by other professionals such as teachers,
artists, scientists, architects, designers etc. I'm using it for the
automatic generation and storage of graphs and it's been tremendously useful
in my work.
However, hold no illusions (and build no castles) about its useability in
professional 3D.
G.
--
**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters
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"Greg M. Johnson" wrote:
>
> I was one of those who came down hard on the first draft of Rune's policy
> for his particle system, and I still bristle at "no commercial use"
> provisions on some code. But then I realized that there would be some uses
> of my code that I'd not like either. And I do dream of being "prior art"
> that prevents a company from getting an abusively over-reaching patent on
> something (rather than they steal from me, per se.)
I think you would go fine with a 'free use but disallowing redistribution'
licence (unless you feel bad about that for some reason).
Christoph
--
POV-Ray tutorials, include files, Sim-POV,
HCR-Edit and more: http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0013390/
Last updated 31 Dec. 2002 _____./\/^>_*_<^\/\.______
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Gilles Tran wrote:
>
> In a nutshell:
> POV-Ray SDL as a modelling language : unusable outside POV
> POV-Ray as a renderer : no direct support for industry formats (RIB etc.)
> This alone leaves 0 room for POV-Ray use in a regular 3D production
> workflow.
> I'm not mentioning other reasons related to features, speed, training etc.
I generally agree but i would put 'training' (and lack of familiarity)
above all other things in terms problems for usage in CG industry.
POV-Ray would surely be suited as an external renderer with a very broad
set of features but efficient use of those features making POV-Ray
superior to other rendering tools really requires a lot of experience.
What might underline this: I have hardly seen any CG professional who
really knows what POV-Ray is capable of, most think it is just a tool for
experiments with reflective spheres on checkered grounds incapable of
rendering any larger scene (a critique that is similarly applied, but in
this case right, to most low quality beginners tools).
Christoph
--
POV-Ray tutorials, include files, Sim-POV,
HCR-Edit and more: http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0013390/
Last updated 31 Dec. 2002 _____./\/^>_*_<^\/\.______
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3E2D5F85.7A424921@gmx.de...
> POV-Ray would surely be suited as an external renderer with a very broad
> set of features but efficient use of those features making POV-Ray
> superior to other rendering tools really requires a lot of experience.
As a renderer, POV-Ray can do wonders and certainly many people,
particularly in the CG industry, ignore that.
But the main issue here is streamlining the rendering process. Funneling
scenes made elsewhere into POV-Ray is a major hurdle because they must be
converted first and a lot is lost in the process (shaders with no POV-Ray
equivalent). Even the geometry can be troublesome (mesh artefacts, problems
with some model formats). Also, some SDL tweaking is often necessary after
the conversion to get good results. I suppose that these problems alone make
it impossible to use in production.
Of course, if someone could make POV-Ray fully compatible with the big apps
that would be a different story. Still, prestige notwithstanding, is this
really necessary?
G.
--
**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters
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