I've decided to change the terms of use under which I distribute my
include files. I want to thank those who participated in the discussion
about it in the thread "My particle system is released", that you
(almost) all kept the discussion serious, didn't make it personal, and
respected my opinions despite the fact that you disagreed with me. I
like when discussions can be like that.

There are some things I don't know so much about, so I'd appreciate your
help here.

I've considered using one of the known public licenses. I don't really
know anything about those. I've been recommended the GPL, and I've found
and read version 2 of that one. Is that the newest version? I would also
be interested in knowing if there are other alternative licenses that
might be of interest to me.

When the include files will be free for non-commercial and commercial
use, I will instead appeal to users to make voluntary donations. I would
like your opinions of what is the best way to make that possible
(easiest and most cost-effective). I've been recommended PayPal and an
Amazon wish list, and I would like to hear if you have any positive or
negative experiences with those, and about possible alternative ways you
could recommend.

P.S. This is posted in povray.general (rather than povray.off-topic),
since this thread might be of interest to other people making include
files, people wishing to modify include files, and to those who use them
in the end.

Rune
--
3D images and anims, include files, tutorials and more:
rune|vision:  http://runevision.com (updated Oct 19)
POV-Ray Ring: http://webring.povray.co.uk

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"Rune" <run### [at] mobilixnetdk> wrote in message
news:3db6e281$1@news.povray.org...

> I've decided to change the terms of use under which I distribute my
> include files.

     I think you've made the right decision.


> When the include files will be free for non-commercial and commercial
> use, I will instead appeal to users to make voluntary donations.

       Just make it 'fun' Rune. It'll work out for the better, you'll see.

       ~Steve~




> Rune
> --
> 3D images and anims, include files, tutorials and more:
> rune|vision:  http://runevision.com (updated Oct 19)
> POV-Ray Ring: http://webring.povray.co.uk
>
>

Post a reply to this message

St. wrote:
> "Rune" wrote:
>> When the include files will be free for non-commercial
>> and commercial use, I will instead appeal to users to
>> make voluntary donations.
>
> Just make it 'fun' Rune. It'll work out for the better,
> you'll see.

Sorry, I didn't get that. What do you mean?

Rune
--
3D images and anims, include files, tutorials and more:
rune|vision:  http://runevision.com (updated Oct 19)
POV-Ray Ring: http://webring.povray.co.uk

Post a reply to this message

"Rune" <run### [at] mobilixnetdk> wrote in message
news:3db6ef7c@news.povray.org...
> St. wrote:
> > "Rune" wrote:
> >> When the include files will be free for non-commercial
> >> and commercial use, I will instead appeal to users to
> >> make voluntary donations.
> >
> > Just make it 'fun' Rune. It'll work out for the better,
> > you'll see.
>
> Sorry, I didn't get that. What do you mean?

    Be the nice guy you are, the cheery, helpful person you can be.

   *Make* it fun, they'll come back to you after (maybe) depositing a little lolly
your way and ask you what you're working on next. Things will build from this. You
*love* people to mail you, right?  ;)

     ~Steve~


>
> Rune
> --
> 3D images and anims, include files, tutorials and more:
> rune|vision:  http://runevision.com (updated Oct 19)
> POV-Ray Ring: http://webring.povray.co.uk
>
>

Post a reply to this message

"Rune" <run### [at] mobilixnetdk> wrote in message
news:3db6e281$1@news.povray.org...
>
> When the include files will be free for non-commercial and
> commercial use, I will instead appeal to users to make voluntary
> donations.
>

IMHO, nothing's changed. Of the posts above, it was Slime's thoughts that I
agreed with the most.

If I ever release a user-friendly blob-man, I would hope to get:
i)    fame,  of the
oh-aren't-we-so-grateful-to-Chris-Colefax-and-Greg-Johnson  type
ii)   more hits to my web pages to influence folks towards my religious,
moral, and political views
iii)  a tap on the shoulder from say a local car dealer to make a commercial
or maybe even Nick Parks himself to do some collaborative work.
iv)  an Oscar for best short, either by me, or by a user where it's obvious
that it's my creature...

When I first started posting my particle & boids animations, someone
contacted me about releasing my code for his quasi-professional use--
something with CG animation in front of an orchestra.  After trying to
formulate conditions for release that would cheeze as much FAME out of it as
possible, I decided instead to release it with no mention of any conditions
on one of my web pages.

And whaddayaknow,  soon CRAIG REYNOLDS, the father of Boids himself, had a
link on his web page to MY SITE!!!

Post a reply to this message

St. wrote:
> Be the nice guy you are, the cheery, helpful
> person you can be.
>
> *Make* it fun, they'll come back to you after
> (maybe) depositing a little lolly your way and
> ask you what you're working on next. Things
> will build from this. You *love* people to mail
> you, right?  ;)

Sure, of course. :) But I was not sure if your comment was a reply to
any of the specific things I wrote, like the donations part. If so, I
didn't get the message.

Rune
--
3D images and anims, include files, tutorials and more:
rune|vision:  http://runevision.com (updated Oct 19)
POV-Ray Ring: http://webring.povray.co.uk

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in news:3db6e281$1@news.povray.org Rune wrote:

> I would also
> be interested in knowing if there are other alternative licenses that
> might be of interest to me.
> 

Hers's somthing to read :)
http://www.opensource.org/licenses/osl.php

I prefer the BSD one, it's simple and short. 

Ingo

Post a reply to this message

Greg M. Johnson wrote:
> IMHO, nothing's changed.

I'm not sure what you mean. Should I take it as a negative remark
implying that this new license will be nothing different from the terms
of use I've used so far? I may have misunderstood you.

> Of the posts above, it was Slime's thoughts
> that I agreed with the most.

Which was mostly about keeping the spirit of POV-Ray as far as I could
tell. If freeware (sometimes with voluntary donations - think IRTC
CD-ROMs and keyrings) is not the spirit of POV-Ray, then I don't know
what is.

Rune
--
3D images and anims, include files, tutorials and more:
rune|vision:  http://runevision.com (updated Oct 19)
POV-Ray Ring: http://webring.povray.co.uk

Post a reply to this message

"Rune" <run### [at] mobilixnetdk> wrote in message
news:3db6f5fa$1@news.povray.org...
> St. wrote:

> > *Make* it fun, they'll come back to you after
> > (maybe) depositing a little lolly your way and
> > ask you what you're working on next. Things
> > will build from this. You *love* people to mail
> > you, right?  ;)
>
> Sure, of course. :) But I was not sure if your comment was a reply to
> any of the specific things I wrote, like the donations part. If so, I
> didn't get the message.

     Rune, it was a general comment. I didn't state whether it was a comment on
your pricing policy or not, I wouldn't, I couldn't, but for a wild guess now, I
would say that you should ask for a donation of something like $7-$10(?) with a
donation (on your part), going to a reputable charity - that way, everyone wins.
This seems to work ok generally.

      What do you reckon?

      ~Steve~


>
> Rune
> --
> 3D images and anims, include files, tutorials and more:
> rune|vision:  http://runevision.com (updated Oct 19)
> POV-Ray Ring: http://webring.povray.co.uk
>
>

Post a reply to this message

"Rune" <run### [at] mobilixnetdk> wrote in news:3db6e281$1
@news.povray.org:

> I've considered using one of the known public licenses. I don't really
> know anything about those. I've been recommended the GPL, and I've found
> and read version 2 of that one. Is that the newest version? I would also
> be interested in knowing if there are other alternative licenses that
> might be of interest to me.
> 

Here is a pretty comprehensive list:
http://www.opensource.org/licenses/


> When the include files will be free for non-commercial and commercial
> use, I will instead appeal to users to make voluntary donations. I would
> like your opinions of what is the best way to make that possible
> (easiest and most cost-effective). I've been recommended PayPal and an
> Amazon wish list, and I would like to hear if you have any positive or
> negative experiences with those, and about possible alternative ways you
> could recommend.
> 

I am fine with either, and someone mentioned charity donations.  That's 
fine too.  The main thing is to pick what you feel most comfortable with.

Post a reply to this message

"Rune" <run### [at] mobilixnetdk> wrote in message
news:3db6f8be$2@news.povray.org...
> Greg M. Johnson wrote:
>> IMHO, nothing's changed.
> I'm not sure what you mean.

I think that making it shareware has the same effect on the spirit of this
community.  Others have a better way of putting it in nicer terms.

> Which was mostly about keeping the spirit of POV-Ray as far as I could
> tell. If freeware (sometimes with voluntary donations - think IRTC
> CD-ROMs and keyrings)

NO.
Who on the POV-Team has asked for renumeration for his services? That dough
goes to the server, AFAIK.  There is a world of difference.

Post a reply to this message

St. <dot### [at] dotcom> wrote in message news:3db6f8f9@news.povray.org...
>
> but for a wild guess now, I
> would say that you should ask for a donation of something like $7-$10(?)
with a
> donation (on your part), going to a reputable charity - that way, everyone
wins.
> This seems to work ok generally.
>

I will avoid sending money anywhere if it results in a donation being given
to a non disease related charity. I know several people who feel the same,
so you may way to take that into consideration when choosing your charity. I
and others are also wary of AIDS charities, as these charities often use the
money to advance political goals with which the donor may or may not agree.

 -Shay

Post a reply to this message

Rune <run### [at] mobilixnetdk> wrote in message
news:3db6f8be$2@news.povray.org...
>
> Which was mostly about keeping the spirit of POV-Ray as far as I could
> tell. If freeware (sometimes with voluntary donations - think IRTC
> CD-ROMs and keyrings) is not the spirit of POV-Ray, then I don't know
> what is.
>

I have sent donations to freeware producers in the past. Still haven't
bought my keychain, though. Right when it was on my mind, they started
talking about cups and I decided to wait. I guess I need to go ahead and get
a keychain.

 -Shay

Post a reply to this message

Greg M. Johnson wrote:
> I think that making it shareware has the same effect
> on the spirit of this community.  Others have a better
> way of putting it in nicer terms.

I'm sorry, I have no idea about what you're talking about. Making *what*
shareware has the same effect on the community as *what*? I don't think
that there have been any mention of shareware anywhere in this
discussion so far.

> NO.
> Who on the POV-Team has asked for renumeration for his
> services? That dough goes to the server, AFAIK.  There
> is a world of difference.

Well, I'm sorry if I'm mistaken. The wording isn't quite clear.

"This page details the products we have available for sale. Sales of
these items assist us in paying our server co-location fees and also in
the general development of POV-Ray."

"General development of POV-Ray" could mean all the unpaid hours
invested in the development - but I don't know.

Besides, I also have costs of having my web site up that will probably
far exceed any donations I might get. So I can't quite see that world of
difference you're talking about.

Rune
--
3D images and anims, include files, tutorials and more:
rune|vision:  http://runevision.com (updated Oct 19)
POV-Ray Ring: http://webring.povray.co.uk

Post a reply to this message

"Rune" <run### [at] mobilixnetdk> a écrit dans le message de news:
3db6e281$1@news.povray.org...
> When the include files will be free for non-commercial and commercial
> use, I will instead appeal to users to make voluntary donations.

Seems fine to me.
Can't help with the details of that though (no previous experience).
In any case, thanks a lot for taking into account the remarks of the people
there !

G.


--
**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters

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> When the include files will be free for non-commercial and commercial
> use, I will instead appeal to users to make voluntary donations.

Yay! *claps*

If I ever make any money off of the use of your include files, I'll be sure
to send you some of it. It's just so nice not to have to worry about the
legal issues; it's all personal favors now. =)

 - Slime
[ http://www.slimeland.com/ ]

Post a reply to this message

Rune <run### [at] mobilixnetdk> wrote:

[...]

> I've considered using one of the known public licenses. I don't really
> know anything about those. I've been recommended the GPL, and I've found
> and read version 2 of that one. Is that the newest version? I would also
> be interested in knowing if there are other alternative licenses that
> might be of interest to me.

Yes, 2 is the newest version, although there are discussions about
another version.

OK, here is an interesting licensing arrangement which I just discovered
from my partner in business. You can have a *dual* license on the same
piece of code (assuming that you are not using any code in it that has
already been GPL'd). So, you release your files under GPL, but you can
have another licensed version for commercial users who do not want to
keep the code open. 

Suppose a company wants to take your code (on which you have copyright),
develop it further, and then make it into a complied application to
distribute on a CD-Rom. You (and only you) can sell them such a license
under whatever terms you agree. Meanwhile, anyone else developing your
code further under the GPL license you released will not be able to sell
or distribute a compiled version.

The best example of this, apparently, is Qt in Linux, which has such a
dual license. If you want to develop a closed application with the Qt
library, you have to obtain a commercial license, but you are free to
use and modify the code under GPL. 

By the way, I too appreciate the civilised way in which others have
debated this issue. Whatever happens, Rune, people like you deserve the
greatest success. I hope somehow I can contribute to the povray
community one way or another.

Post a reply to this message

"Rune" <run### [at] mobilixnetdk> wrote in message
news:3db7061e@news.povray.org...
>
> I'm sorry, I have no idea about what you're talking about.
> Making *what* shareware has the same effect on the
> community as *what*?
>

"Voluntary donations" is what I meant by "shareware".  There is little
difference in the effect on a freeware community between your new policy and
your old  one.


> "General development of POV-Ray" could mean all the unpaid
> hours invested in the development - but I don't know.
>

That's one heck of an assumption. I assume it's the cost of a server and
maybe at most some compilers, but there's evidence they got some for free.


> Besides, I also have costs of having my web site up that will probably
> far exceed any donations I might get. So I can't quite see that world of
> difference you're talking about.
>

Do you **need** a web site for the distribution of a 37 KB  zipped file? You
could post it to  p.b.s.-f. without the P-T seeing a blip in bandwidth
costs...

Post a reply to this message

Greg M. Johnson wrote:
> "Voluntary donations" is what I meant by "shareware".

I think you've mixed up some terms there.

> There is little difference in the effect on a freeware
> community between your new policy and your old one.

Oh sorry, I didn't know you spoke on behalf of the community.

> Do you **need** a web site for the distribution of a
> 37 KB  zipped file? You could post it to  p.b.s.-f.
> without the P-T seeing a blip in bandwidth costs...

And POV-Ray could be distributed through all kinds of sites and the
newsgroups could be on Usenet, but that's not a very optimal
situation...

Rune
--
3D images and anims, include files, tutorials and more:
rune|vision:  http://runevision.com (updated Oct 19)
POV-Ray Ring: http://webring.povray.co.uk

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"Greg M. Johnson" <gregj:-)565### [at] aolcom> wrote in
news:3db70d62@news.povray.org: 

> "Rune" <run### [at] mobilixnetdk> wrote in message
> news:3db7061e@news.povray.org...
>>
>> I'm sorry, I have no idea about what you're talking about.
>> Making *what* shareware has the same effect on the
>> community as *what*?
>>
> 
> "Voluntary donations" is what I meant by "shareware".  There is little
> difference in the effect on a freeware community between your new
> policy and your old  one.
> 
> 

If I understand correctly, what Rune is planning on doing is releasing the 
code under the GPL or a similar Open Source license.  That is not shareware 
by any stretch.   You will be free to use the includes either personally or 
commercially and never send a penny.  He is not demanding donataions.  He 
will welcome them though.  Many projects on sourceforge work that way.  

I think that meshes well with the POV-Ray community.  It gives those of us 
who do not contribute code a way to still contribute.

If this is what he does with the includes, then I will be happy to send a 
thank you.  

Tom

Post a reply to this message

"Rune" <run### [at] mobilixnetdk> wrote in message
news:3db713cb@news.povray.org...
> Greg M. Johnson wrote:
>> There is little difference in the effect on a freeware
>> community between your new policy and your old one.
>
> Oh sorry, I didn't know you spoke on behalf of the community.
>

Okay, how about there might be resentment of those who criticize any
for-profit venture within a freeware community?

Post a reply to this message

Greg M. Johnson wrote:
> "Rune" <run### [at] mobilixnetdk> wrote in message
> news:3db7061e@news.povray.org...
> 
>>I'm sorry, I have no idea about what you're talking about.
>>Making *what* shareware has the same effect on the
>>community as *what*?
> 
> "Voluntary donations" is what I meant by "shareware".  There is little
> difference in the effect on a freeware community between your new policy and
> your old  one.

I can't agree, FWIW. As long as Rune's not beating anyone over the head 
to do it, "voluntary" is the key here. There's a big difference between 
demanding money and asking for it; compare the RIAA to a street 
musician, for instance.

-Xplo

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