"Xplo Eristotle" <xpl### [at] infomagicnet> a écrit dans le message de news:
3db53b04@news.povray.org...

> All he has to do to not be a hypocrite in
> my opinion is to either free his code or compensate anyone who helped
> him develop it (directly or otherwise) as that would be only fair.

To be really fair, everyone who sells "products of the intellect" kind of
goods may know this sort of little moral tugging because there's always
something in what you sell that was given to you by someone else (ideas,
bits of code etc.). I guess a little hypocrisy is unavoidable and is usually
forgivable. The questions are, how it balances out eventually (how much
value did you add to what you received) or, well, how much you want/need the
money!

G.

--

**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters

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Gilles Tran wrote:
> But people who don't put these sort of restrictions
> don't seem to suffer from it. I certainly don't.
> So why the extra and unfriendly step ?

Well, how would you like it if people made modified versions of your
images and distributed them beyond your control? I know that images and
include files are not the same thing, but I feel the same way about the
include files I make.

> If everyone acted like this, there would never have
> been a POV-Ray community, and most people - including
> you and me - would never have been acquainted with it.

So if POV-Ray was only free for non-commercial usage, there would be
suddenly no user-base at all? I'm not sure about the correctness of this
assumption.

> Please, use your imagination and think hard about it :
> what if everyone was doing that ? What sort of
> legalese hell would it be ?

No, I still don't see the problem.

I have contributed lots of things to this community that can be used as
anyone pleases. It's only my most complete and finished include files
that go under the terms of use in question. I could never dream about
doing the same for simple advise or for the casual helpful 50 lines of
code here and there.

It wouldn't bother me if all the include files that people make were
only free for non-commercial purposes.

> By requiring them to do it you imply that they're
> dishonest by default. It's like putting "Customers,
> we remind you that you must pay for what you buy"
> signs in a shop.

Such a sign makes sense if there are many other shops that offer free
goods. It's not at all obvious that my include files are not free for
commercial usage, if I don't explicitly write it.

> you hurt yourself because of the lack of exposure you
> need as someone with real 3D skills.

Somehow I doubt that greater exposure of my include files would make
anyone hire me, send me free things, or anything like that.

Rune
--
3D images and anims, include files, tutorials and more:
rune|vision:  http://runevision.com (updated Oct 19)
POV-Ray Ring: http://webring.povray.co.uk

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Xplo Eristotle wrote:
> And then there are the people like me - unashamed
> software pirates - who would happily use your work
> and not give you a dime or a shred of credit, in
> the belief that information is inherently free and
> that artificial limitations on its freedom can and
> should be ignored.

So theft of information is ok, eh? Well then, there's one obvious way
for me to avoid that happening, and that is not to publish or release
the information in the first place. That would also save me all the work
of writing documentation and making everything neat, and there probably
wouldn't be anyone complaining either. It really is a tempting thing to
consider for my future projects...

At least, that's the kind of reasoning that arguments like yours result
in.

Rune
--
3D images and anims, include files, tutorials and more:
rune|vision:  http://runevision.com (updated Oct 19)
POV-Ray Ring: http://webring.povray.co.uk

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"Rune" <run### [at] mobilixnetdk> a écrit dans le message de news:
3db57a70@news.povray.org...

> Well, how would you like it if people made modified versions of your
> images and distributed them beyond your control?

(Unless there would be some actual damage done to my reputation, it wouldn't
be such a problem. I just take care to not put commercially viable (i.e.
printable) images on-line. The one half-plagiary problem I got was settled
quite peacefully. There was also the case where someone re-rendered Jaime's
"Old Door" image with some minor changes, posted it and took way too much
credit for it. And there's an IRTC picture which is a unashamed copy of a
better pic (non-credited) and still won an award. But I guess we can live
with that.)

The trouble with POV-Ray include files is that, until now, the untold
assumption was that they were not supposed to have a non-symbolic commercial
value, just like POV-Ray (which has a symbolic retail value of 30$).
"Untold" because all the people who had created great include files before
you didn't bother, AFAIK. So it's like waking up and finding that something
that everyone was taking was granted was gone, and it explains why a few
people expressed their sadness. OK, so POV-Ray script files can be sold and
traded now, so please let the lawyers in, and the I Am Not A Lawyer But
threads, and endless EULA discussions like this one... (just overdoing it a
little bit, just for the fun of it).

> So if POV-Ray was only free for non-commercial usage, there would be
> suddenly no user-base at all? I'm not sure about the correctness of this
> assumption.

Because when things go commercial, the stakes suddenlenly get higher,
vendors get greedy and pushy, users get demanding and angry etc. It can
settle eventually but a lot is gone. Every time I frequent other 3D forums
concerning commercial software, I'm always surprised at the amount of
bitterness and resentement there. There are always people bitching at each
other, reciprocal accusations of piracy, of who stole what from whom, when
they don't rat each other out. Want an example : lately, some disgruntled
vendors of Poser models started sending anonymous hate mail to freebie
providers, accusing them of unfair competition. Here's a sample (I bleeped
the naughty words) that was posted recently in a Poser forum :

"Hows about you [bleep] right off out of the community. We don't need you or
your free [bleep] . The Renderosity store is there to give people the stuff
they need for Poser not [bleep]  who try to kill vendors by giving [bleep]
away."

See what we're missing ? I do believe that the POV-Ray community became what
it is now because of the absence of commercial competition between its
members. It's a nice place. We have this 100% free resource, we make nice
images and if someone sells a pic for 10$ once in a blue moon everybody's
happy and nobody's hurt. Why change that ?

> Somehow I doubt that greater exposure of my include files would make
> anyone hire me, send me free things, or anything like that.

POV-Ray is not a get-rich-quick scheme. No real money in that, period. Those
here who will make a career in 3D will have it once they'll get to use the
pro tools, after they will have been introduced to art/3D/programming
through POV-Ray. Think of Marco Fajardo, once a POV-Ray patcher, now the
Arnold/Messaiah guru. Or HE Day, who's busy learning Max. Or Debra Ross,
who's started with POV-Ray and is now making models for Curious Labs.
If you plan this sort of career, a nice resume showing the sort of thing you
did with POV-Ray, how successful you were doing them, and what popularity
you got will certainly help you landing jobs. Exposure of your work is
obviously instrumental in that. You need your name to come up in Google
searches to prove it and for that you need a maximum of people using your
stuff and happy with it, and if they post it without your consent, it's
still advertising for you.
But of course it really depends on what you plan to do with your life, lol.


G.


--

**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters

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Gilles Tran wrote:
> POV-Ray is not a get-rich-quick scheme.

POV-Ray is not an ANYTHING-quick scheme, LOL...;)

-- 
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.scifi-fantasy.com
mirror: http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/z/9/z993126

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GFA dpu- s: a?-- C++(++++) U P? L E--- W++(+++)>$
N++ o? K- w(+) O? M-(--) V? PS+(+++) PE(--) Y(--)
PGP-(--) t* 5++>+++++ X+ R* tv+ b++(+++) DI
D++(---) G(++) e*>++ h+ !r--- !y--
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

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Would this work for making a still shot of a snowy scene where
it has been snowing for some time from various directions. Would
the snow accumulate over time? Stick to surfaces?


_____________
Kari Kivisalo

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Kari Kivisalo wrote:
> Would this work for making a still shot of a snowy
> scene where it has been snowing for some time from
> various directions.

No, that would require too many particles, and the system is not at all
optimized for this task.

> Would the snow accumulate over time? Stick to surfaces?

No and no. Sorry. :/

But thinking about it, I don't think that any particle system would be
well suited for a task like this. Assuming that we are talking about at
least semi-realistic snow spread over a somewhat large area...

Rune
--
3D images and anims, include files, tutorials and more:
rune|vision:  http://runevision.com (updated Oct 19)
POV-Ray Ring: http://webring.povray.co.uk

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Rune wrote:
> 
> 
> Somehow I doubt that greater exposure of my include files would make
> anyone hire me, send me free things, or anything like that.
> 
> Rune

As Gilles said: don't underestimate the power of Google! ;)

If someone would be looking for information/assistance on a
subject like particle systems Google could be a place to start
and it might be benificial to be somewhere at the top of the
list there.

I actually think the odds for earning some cash that way are
better then through direct sales - in the long run that is.

Remco

Post a reply to this message

Remco de Korte wrote:
> As Gilles said: don't underestimate the power of Google! ;)
>
> If someone would be looking for information/assistance on a
> subject like particle systems Google could be a place to start
> and it might be beneficial to be somewhere at the top of the
> list there.

Yeah, right now a search for "particle system" only returns my site as
nr. 19.

Just a shame that I cannot give any information or assistance with
particle systems, because the only one I've made is pretty simplistic
and is not at all based on a thorough background knowledge on the
subject.

> I actually think the odds for earning some cash that way are
> better then through direct sales - in the long run that is.

Well, I fail to see how.

Rune
--
3D images and anims, include files, tutorials and more:
rune|vision:  http://runevision.com (updated Oct 19)
POV-Ray Ring: http://webring.povray.co.uk

Post a reply to this message

Rune wrote:
> 
> 
> > I actually think the odds for earning some cash that way are
> > better then through direct sales - in the long run that is.
> 
> Well, I fail to see how.
> 
> Rune
> --

I can understand that. I sympathize with the fact that you're
trying to get something back for things you've been providing.
In a freeware oriented community that is *difficult* to say the
least.

You claim you have little knowledge about particle systems, but
what are you offering then and why do you expect people to pay
for that (instead of other things you might have to offer *)? 

I'm not saying anything about the value of your system (the
inherent value, which is probably different from the value in
the freeware context) or of your skills. But one good project
would probably earn you more then you would ever get from
selling licenses.

It's been known to happen (to me for instance) but you have to
get some exposure. Preferrably outside the POV-community,
because they're all paupers ;)

Whichever way you go I still think you have the right to choose
for yourself.

Cheers!

Remco


*) uh-oh, I'm not suggesting you should start selling your body
or organs or something ;)

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In article <3db5d725@news.povray.org>, run### [at] mobilixnetdk 
says...
> Kari Kivisalo wrote:
> > Would this work for making a still shot of a snowy
> > scene where it has been snowing for some time from
> > various directions.
> 
> No, that would require too many particles, and the system is not at all
> optimized for this task.
> 
> > Would the snow accumulate over time? Stick to surfaces?
> 
> No and no. Sorry. :/
> 
> But thinking about it, I don't think that any particle system would be
> well suited for a task like this. Assuming that we are talking about at
> least semi-realistic snow spread over a somewhat large area...
Hmm.. I don't know, if your surface was a blob or something like one then 
each particle that died as it impacted could be added to the structure of 
the blob with some threshold that caused multiple objects to be replaced 
by a single larger object or the like. Of course from what I read 
someplace else about blobs, this may not work quite right...

> 
> Rune
> --
> 3D images and anims, include files, tutorials and more:
> rune|vision:  http://runevision.com (updated Oct 19)
> POV-Ray Ring: http://webring.povray.co.uk
> 
> 
>

Post a reply to this message

"Rune" <run### [at] mobilixnetdk> wrote in news:3db57a70
@news.povray.org:

> Gilles Tran wrote:
>> you hurt yourself because of the lack of exposure you
>> need as someone with real 3D skills.
> 
> Somehow I doubt that greater exposure of my include files would make
> anyone hire me, send me free things, or anything like that.
> 
> Rune

I don't.

I have bought and upgraded Moray several times.  I have bought Midnite 
Modellor.  I own a few keyrings, all the IRTC CD-ROMS, Gilles Trans Zebra  
poster is on my to purchase list.  That is just the POV community way.  
Over the years I have spent thousands buying shareware and making 
donations to open source software.  Your particle system would be high on 
my list for a donation if the terms of use were in the original stone 
soup spirit that started POV-Ray off.  What I mean by that is:

- GPL the include(at sourceforge would be nice).  
- Set up a wishlist at Amazon 
- Or a paypal button.

Take a look at the gifts that the Maintainer of AWstats(a wonderful 
package BTW) has received recently:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/registry/3F19UHYYQRBPA/102-1233161-
5494538?registry.reveal-purchases=true

My purchase from earlier this month has already scrolled off the list. 
Now I am not saying that you will have the same success, but I would 
wager that you would receive more compensation this way, because the  
people in this community do give back.

As it stands now I do not use your includes and IMP can not either.  
Please don't take this as an attack.  It is a plea to free the includes 
and trust the community to take care of it's own.

Tom

Post a reply to this message

Rune wrote:
> 
> So theft of information is ok, eh?

Since information which is made available to others can't be owned, it 
can't be stolen. Your question is meaningless.

> Well then, there's one obvious way
> for me to avoid that happening, and that is not to publish or release
> the information in the first place. That would also save me all the work
> of writing documentation and making everything neat, and there probably
> wouldn't be anyone complaining either. It really is a tempting thing to
> consider for my future projects...

That's exactly right. The only way you can exercise any control over 
your information is to keep it to yourself and never release it.

Perhaps you should consider carefully what you would prefer: that 
everybody have what you create, or that nobody have what you create. All 
other choices are ultimately illusory.

-Xplo

Post a reply to this message

I guess for cases like "snow-piling", it would be
best to build specifically designed systems for
just this task, by cropping some useful algorithms
from the existing system and creating a new,
less versatile system.
In this case, I'd say:
-Drop particles onto surfaces with the typical
particle routine, just let them drop until they
sort of stay where they are.
-As soon as they've stopped, add them to a
file which is loaded to be part of the object that
particles are to bounce off from

This might require some tweaking to the systems
core routine, cause new objects will be popping
up all over the place...

Might make an interesting project though.

Well, just my 2 cents worth,
Tim


--
Tim Nikias
Homepage: http://www.digitaltwilight.de/no_lights/index.html
Email: Tim### [at] gmxde

> > Kari Kivisalo wrote:
> > > Would this work for making a still shot of a snowy
> > > scene where it has been snowing for some time from
> > > various directions.
> >
> > No, that would require too many particles, and the system is not at all
> > optimized for this task.
> >
> > > Would the snow accumulate over time? Stick to surfaces?
> >
> > No and no. Sorry. :/
> >
> > But thinking about it, I don't think that any particle system would be
> > well suited for a task like this. Assuming that we are talking about at
> > least semi-realistic snow spread over a somewhat large area...
> Hmm.. I don't know, if your surface was a blob or something like one then
> each particle that died as it impacted could be added to the structure of
> the blob with some threshold that caused multiple objects to be replaced
> by a single larger object or the like. Of course from what I read
> someplace else about blobs, this may not work quite right...
>

Post a reply to this message

Gilles Tran wrote:
> POV-Ray is not a get-rich-quick scheme.

What!!!??!?!?!?!!

--
Rick

Kitty5 NewMedia http://Kitty5.co.uk
POV-Ray News & Resources http://Povray.co.uk
TEL : +44 (01270) 501101 - FAX : +44 (01270) 251105 - ICQ : 15776037

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---

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"Rick [Kitty5]" <ric### [at] kitty5com> a écrit dans le message de news:
3db67aae$1@news.povray.org...
> Gilles Tran wrote:
> > POV-Ray is not a get-rich-quick scheme.
>
> What!!!??!?!?!?!!

Sorry for that. And there's worse...
I heard it can't be used to enlarge body parts. And if "you're married and
lonely", you'll stay that way.

G.

--

**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters

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On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:45:42 +0200, "Gilles Tran" <tra### [at] inapginrafr>
wrote:

>I heard it can't be used to enlarge body parts. 

It has been proven to enlarge knuckles, wrist tendons, diopters,
bellies, beards as well as the adrenal gland (as in "Oooh oooh 11pps
*drool* *faints*")

>And if "you're married and lonely", you'll stay that way.

It's also been shown to lead to the latter without the former being
true.


Peter Popov ICQ : 15002700
Personal e-mail : pet### [at] vipbg
TAG      e-mail : pet### [at] tagpovrayorg

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I have been following the mails on this issue. I feel I must make a
short contribution. (Sorry, longer than I expected!)

My feeling is that you might be best served in the long term with GPL.
You have the following protection:

- Your copyright is protected even in any derivative work.

- All derivative work will be available to the public, with you still
retained as primary author. The code cannot be compiled into a black
box.

- The code will be improved, debugged if need be, but you will always be
principal author.

- If anyone violates your rights, FSF will help you in litigation, with
their lawyers.

Of course, GPL allows anyone to use your code for any commercial
purpose, and charge as much money as they want. This is probably your
nightmare scenario, someone making millions, and you getting nothing.
But the chances of that are small, especially when your code is open and
in the public domain.

I agree with others that it is in your interest to let the povray
community modify, and add to your system. This will be the 'education'
that you refer to in your license, and it will only enhance your profile
and recognition. As the primary author, you will probably continue to be
the most skilled user of the files, as you will keenly follow all
improvements, and anyone wanting to hire a programmer for a job will
probably approach you first.

----------

Some background might be of interest. 

I and a partner run a technical typesetting business, working on
mathematical journals. Main office is in India. We use almost entirely
free (mostly GPL) software, with Linux as the operating system, and TeX
as the typesetting engine. We are almost unique in the industry. Most
companies use bespoke software, at great expense. We have less bugs,
almost no software overheads, and we therefore have a higher profit
margin than our competitors. So I unashamedly say that we are making
good money out of free software, and keen to advertise that fact to our
clients. Less overheads means better conditions for our staff, and more
relaxed attitude in the office.

We also do our bit and contribute to free software. As an example, my
partner is the author of PDFscreen, a package (GPL) that produces linked
PDF documents from starndard Latex files, without using Distiller. The
package was released about 4 years ago, quickly added to and debugged by
third parties, and now has a user base of thousands. Someone mentioned
google. You can do a search on pdfscreen to see how people are using it.

Although many people have contributed, my partner, Radhakrishnan is the
undisputed author, and the name always associated with the package. If a
big publisher wanted to do something really serious with this, he would
probably be called upon.

So this is a live example of how you could distribute your software. I
think that the GPL software is the best way of attacking the competing
commercial software, and the guys whose only measurement of 'success' is
in dollars. I hope that in the long run, GPL will disarm them.

--------------

If you are bored already, then you won't have got this far. But you
might ask what the hell I am doing here, and not counting my money from
the business!

Well, because I discovered povray recently and fell in love with it,
just as I fell in love with TeX (in 1983!). There are many parallels:

- It's the best software in the field
- It's free
- The output can't be surpassed
- It's improving all the time
- It's code driven
- It can read from and write to external files

One specific possible application is to use povray as a graphics package
to be used by TeX to embed graphics into interactive documents. So TeX
would write out a povray file, which would run through povray, and the
result be called back again into a pdf file. An example would be
navigation buttons, with the text passed from TeX as a parameter. This
would fit nicely into pdfscreen. We could then make even nicer documents
than we are doing now.

I also want to write a library for drawing an optical layout in the
laboratory. (My other life is in Optics and Holography.) I am
particularly interested in ray tracing through holograms. Most optical
software uses forward ray tracing, but I have a feeling that for
holograms, backwards ray tracing is more appropriate. That's probably
going into too much detail now.

----------------

As a conclusion, the way to get povray out of the 'hobby' area and into
the big world, where it belongs, is to blast the world with freebies, to
show them that there is an alternative to 'corporate' software.
Companies are already questioning their wisdom in investing heavily in
packaged, professionally supported software. And when they do come
round, it's yourselves they will have to turn to for advice and
consultancy.

----------------

Sorry for the long mail, guys. ;-)

Post a reply to this message

Tim Nikias wrote:
> I guess for cases like "snow-piling", it would be
> best to build specifically designed systems for
> just this task, by cropping some useful algorithms
> from the existing system and creating a new,
> less versatile system.
> In this case, I'd say:
> -Drop particles onto surfaces with the typical
> particle routine, just let them drop until they
> sort of stay where they are.
> -As soon as they've stopped, add them to a
> file which is loaded to be part of the object that
> particles are to bounce off from
> 
> This might require some tweaking to the systems
> core routine, cause new objects will be popping
> up all over the place...

I used a similar trick for placing leaves on the ground in "Portrait of 
Autumn" (which I really should work on some more.. if I can find the 
time): generating a layer of leaves and then adding them to an 
"everything" object for trace() purposes. It works well enough, but 
makes for some ugly code.

-Xplo

Post a reply to this message

In article <3db5e6b8@news.povray.org>,
 "Rune" <run### [at] mobilixnetdk> wrote:
>> I actually think the odds for earning some cash that way are
>> better then through direct sales - in the long run that is.
>
>Well, I fail to see how.

I once wrote an enhancement for PHP's ftp routines that allowed ftping 
directly to a string (or directly from a string, I can't remember now), 
in a manner similar to what PHP's file access routines could do with a 
file. It was completely unnecessary, because PHP's file access routines 
could work with URLs.

It was really a problem with the documentation--at the time, PHP's FTP 
documentation did not refer to the file access documentation for people 
needing those features. So I added a note to the PHP documentation 
comment area (PHP's web documentation is the only programming language 
documentation for which I prefer the on-line version to printed version) 
noting what I had done and why it was unnecessary.

Obviously, the direct sales for such a product, were I tðhave marketed 
it, would have been nil; the functionality was completely unnecessary. 
But because of that comment I have actually received (and been paid for) 
a review job for the FTP section of a PHP book :*)

(note follow-ups)

Jerry
-- 
http://www.hoboes.com/jerry/
"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish, and you've
depleted the lake."--It Isn't Murder If They're Yankees
(http://www.hoboes.com/jerry/Murder/)

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"Rune" <run### [at] mobilixnetdk> wrote in message
news:3db1d036@news.povray.org...
> My particle system is finally released!
> . . .
> You can download the system and
> also see animations of all the sample scene files here:
> http://runevision.com/3d/include/particles/
>
> Rune

Tried the link, but failed:

Microsoft JET Database Engine error '80004005'
System resource exceeded.
/include/header.asp, line 144

Not available today?

--
Robert Chaffe
http://www.donovansweb.com/~chaffe/

Post a reply to this message

Robert Chaffe wrote:
> Tried the link, but failed:
>
> Microsoft JET Database Engine error '80004005'
> System resource exceeded.
> /include/header.asp, line 144
>
> Not available today?

No, try tomorrow. :(

This error on my site happens way too often lately. I'm trying to
contact my web hotel provider to hear what can be done.

Rune
--
3D images and anims, include files, tutorials and more:
rune|vision:  http://runevision.com (updated Oct 19)
POV-Ray Ring: http://webring.povray.co.uk

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