Warp wrote:
>
>   I wonder if there's any way in CSS to make the position of an item
> fixed.

Yes. Try "position:fixed".

-Xplo

Post a reply to this message

"Warp" <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote in message
news:3d6fb9e0@news.povray.org...
> hughes b <omn### [at] charternet> wrote:
> > Are you going to rely on the browser navigation buttons instead of
having
> > jumps within the pages?
>
>   I will probably add a navigation bar at the top of the page.

Oh, I see. Great.

>   I wonder if there's any way in CSS to make the position of an item
> fixed. This way the navigation bar would be fixed at the top of the
> viewing area independently of where you are in the page itself (this is
> imho a much better option than using frames). I faintly remember seeing
> some pages do this.

I was curious so I looked for something that might be worthwhile and found
this:
http://www.i3dthemes.com/custom/online_tools/dhtml_menu_generator.htm
Maybe you could get a similar thing worked into your CSS?

Post a reply to this message

Xplo Eristotle <xpl### [at] infomagicnet> wrote:
> Yes. Try "position:fixed".

  That seems to be part of the CSS2 standard. I wonder how well the different
browsets support it.
  (On the other hand, if a browser would not support it, it would probably
just mean that the navigation bar is left at the top of the whole page,
with no other negative drawbacks.)

-- 
#macro M(A,N,D,L)plane{-z,-9pigment{mandel L*9translate N color_map{[0rgb x]
[1rgb 9]}scale<D,D*3D>*1e3}rotate y*A*8}#end M(-3<1.206434.28623>70,7)M(
-1<.7438.1795>1,20)M(1<.77595.13699>30,20)M(3<.75923.07145>80,99)// - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

In article <3d70a56b@news.povray.org> , Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg>  wrote:

>   (On the other hand, if a browser would not support it, it would probably
> just mean that the navigation bar is left at the top of the whole page,
> with no other negative drawbacks.)

Quit dreaming!!! ;-)

It will appear at random locations as the browser programmers see fit.  If
you are lucky you can still read the page in the end, or not :-(

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

Post a reply to this message

I added a navigation bar. Doesn't seem to work very well in IE, though.
In Mozilla it works like a marvel.
  Any opinions/suggestions?

  (For those using browsers where it works ok, like in Mozilla: Yes, it's
made solely with CSS. No dirty javascript or any other tricks. :) )

-- 
#macro N(D)#if(D>99)cylinder{M()#local D=div(D,104);M().5,2pigment{rgb M()}}
N(D)#end#end#macro M()<mod(D,13)-6mod(div(D,13)8)-3,10>#end blob{
N(11117333955)N(4254934330)N(3900569407)N(7382340)N(3358)N(970)}//  - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

"Warp" <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote in message
news:3d70bbf2@news.povray.org...
>   I added a navigation bar. Doesn't seem to work very well in IE, though.

If I had used IE maximized as I usually do I wouldn't have noticed anything
about it. Just happened to be a smaller window at the time, the navbar must
linewrap, which overlaps itself halfway. Can still read it and use it, just
crowded-looking.

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:
> Xplo Eristotle <xpl### [at] infomagicnet> wrote:
> 
>>Yes. Try "position:fixed".
> 
> 
>   That seems to be part of the CSS2 standard. I wonder how well the different
> browsets support it.

Mozilla (and its derivatives) will support it just fine, as *should* IE5 
or better. Other browsers probably won't support it (sorry I can't be 
more specific, but it's been a while since I've kept up with which 
browsers do or don't support various features and standards, because I'm 
sick of the whole legacy browser support thing - upgrade already!) but 
if your navigation bar appears at the top of your page code, it should 
appear at the top of the page in a browser without CSS2 support.

Of course, if you use one of those DHTML menubar scripts as someone 
suggested, all bets are off :P

-Xplo

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:
>   I added a navigation bar. Doesn't seem to work very well in IE, though.
> In Mozilla it works like a marvel.
>   Any opinions/suggestions?

You might be more specific about what's wrong.

I find it doesn't work in Mac IE 5.1, but at present I have no idea why. 
I'll take another look when I get bored and see if I can't figure it out.

-Xplo

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:
> 
>   I added a navigation bar. Doesn't seem to work very well in IE, though.
> In Mozilla it works like a marvel.
>   Any opinions/suggestions?

It looks like sh_t in Netscape 4.7. It was much better the other way.

-- 
Ken Tyler

Post a reply to this message

"Warp" <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote in message
news:3d70bbf2@news.povray.org...
>   I added a navigation bar. Doesn't seem to work very well in IE, though.
> In Mozilla it works like a marvel.
>   Any opinions/suggestions?

Works okay in Opera v6.01.
Perhaps those buttons might be stacked vertically at the left instead?

--
Robert Chaffe
http://www.donovansweb.com/~chaffe/

Post a reply to this message

hughes b <omn### [at] charternet> wrote:
> If I had used IE maximized as I usually do I wouldn't have noticed anything
> about it. Just happened to be a smaller window at the time, the navbar must
> linewrap, which overlaps itself halfway. Can still read it and use it, just
> crowded-looking.

  Yes, I noticed that too. Does anyone have a suggestion how to avoid that
(without compromising the its current look and functionality)?

-- 
#macro N(D)#if(D>99)cylinder{M()#local D=div(D,104);M().5,2pigment{rgb M()}}
N(D)#end#end#macro M()<mod(D,13)-6mod(div(D,13)8)-3,10>#end blob{
N(11117333955)N(4254934330)N(3900569407)N(7382340)N(3358)N(970)}//  - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

Xplo Eristotle <xpl### [at] infomagicnet> wrote:
> You might be more specific about what's wrong.

  IE seems to ignore the 'position: fixed' and it either ignores or
interprets in a different way the top, right, bottom and left definitions
in the CSS file.
  This means that the navigation bar does not stay stationary with respect
to the viewport and it's not located at the very top of the viewport.
  For some reason it also lacks the top and bottom borders of the "buttons".

-- 
#macro M(A,N,D,L)plane{-z,-9pigment{mandel L*9translate N color_map{[0rgb x]
[1rgb 9]}scale<D,D*3D>*1e3}rotate y*A*8}#end M(-3<1.206434.28623>70,7)M(
-1<.7438.1795>1,20)M(1<.77595.13699>30,20)M(3<.75923.07145>80,99)// - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:
> It looks like sh_t in Netscape 4.7. It was much better the other way.

  I don't really want to degrade the pages because of an old and obsolete
browser. If you have any suggestion on how could I modify the page so that
it will look better in N4, but without compromising its current look&feel
in newer browers, I'm ready to make those changes (as long as they make
sense, of course; things like "detect the browser version with javascript"
are out of question).

-- 
#macro N(D)#if(D>99)cylinder{M()#local D=div(D,104);M().5,2pigment{rgb M()}}
N(D)#end#end#macro M()<mod(D,13)-6mod(div(D,13)8)-3,10>#end blob{
N(11117333955)N(4254934330)N(3900569407)N(7382340)N(3358)N(970)}//  - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:
> 
> Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:
> > It looks like sh_t in Netscape 4.7. It was much better the other way.
> 
>   I don't really want to degrade the pages because of an old and obsolete
> browser. If you have any suggestion on how could I modify the page so that
> it will look better in N4, but without compromising its current look&feel
> in newer browers, I'm ready to make those changes (as long as they make
> sense, of course; things like "detect the browser version with javascript"
> are out of question).

I just checked and whatever feature you are using for the navbar is broken
in both IE6 and in N4.7 so I don't really understand why you insist on using
something that is known to cause problems in both browsers. There are literally
millions of web pages on the internet that do not display these problems,
are perfectly functional using somewhat older computer technology, and do not
compromise site functionality or style. Style sheets may sound like a good
idea on the surface but everyone who attempts to use them run into problems
with the people they are trying to please the most and those are the visitors
to that site. If you want to cop some sort of elitist attitude that is
fine with me but I refuse to upgrade my browser just so it is compatible
with your broken site.

-- 
Ken Tyler

Post a reply to this message

Ken wrote:
> 
> Style sheets may sound like a good
> idea on the surface...

Style sheets *are* a good idea.

> I refuse to upgrade my browser just so it is compatible
> with your broken site.

If the site is written correctly, then it is your browser that is 
broken, not the site. If you refuse to upgrade to a non-broken browser, 
then you must accept the consequences of using faulty software, 
including the inability to render web pages as they should appear.

-Xplo

Post a reply to this message

Xplo Eristotle wrote:
> 
> Ken wrote:
> >
> > Style sheets may sound like a good
> > idea on the surface...
> 
> Style sheets *are* a good idea.

I could go into business making wheel rims for cars but if I don't put
the bolt holes in the right place they won't fit any car on the market.
The problem with style sheets is that the bolt holes are in the wrong
place and too many browsers don't support them. It's just bad business
to use them on a web page if you want to cater to the broadest range
of users that visit that site. And that's all I have to say about that.

-- 
Ken Tyler

Post a reply to this message

Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:
> I just checked and whatever feature you are using for the navbar is broken
> in both IE6 and in N4.7 so I don't really understand why you insist on using
> something that is known to cause problems in both browsers.

  The navigation bar is not "broken" in IE6. It works as a navigation bar,
but its location just doesn't stay fixed with respect to the viewport, but
scrolls with the rest of the page. I even succeeded in fixing the problem
which happened when the browser window was too narrow (now the "buttons"
should not overlap, but they stack nicely; they even should have whole
borders now).
  IMHO it performs its job in IE now, even though its position doesn't stay
fixed.
  Also take into account, that previously there was no navigation bar at
all, so a navigation bar at each page, even though at the very beginning,
is better than none.

  The pages pass the html validator at www.w3.org without error nor warnings,
as well as the CSS. This means that they are valid HTML 4.

  So in IE it works acceptably. In Netscape 6 / Mozilla it works superb.
The only browser which is reported to do a bad job is an outdated and obsolete
version of Netscape.

  If you want to stick to an old browser (which is getting even older as
time passes), then I don't think that's my headache. You can't expect me
to degrade the features of my pages just because some people out there are
using obsolete browsers and refuse to upgrade for some reason.
  If you want to think that I'm an elitist, then go ahead. However, it's
not elitistic, it's practical.
  Besides, complaining that someone uses features which a 5 years old browser
does not support is the same thing as complaining that someone is using
photons in his POV-Ray scene even though POV-Ray 3.1 does not support them.
The answer has always been simple: Upgrade POV-Ray.
  I don't see why I shouldn't use the current HTML standard (and I'm not
even using the most exotic features...).

  Using CSS makes my life easier. For example, if I want to change the
background color of all the <pre>...</pre> blocks (ie. the ones containing
povray code), I can change it in one single place, and it gets automatically
spawned everywhere where such block is used.

> Style sheets may sound like a good
> idea on the surface but everyone who attempts to use them run into problems
> with the people they are trying to please the most and those are the visitors
> to that site.

  Then why don't you go an complain to the pov-team that they are using
style-sheets in the html documentation? And what's worse, they even want
you to upgrade your IE to at least version 4 if you want to see the help
files ok! What an outrage! This should be fixed immediately. There are
millions of people out there using old versions of IE and refusing to
upgrade...

  No. I don't agree with you.

> I refuse to upgrade my browser just so it is compatible
> with your broken site.

  Firstly, if you don't want to upgrade your browser to a newer version,
that's your problem, not mine. If you want to use an old browser, then
fine, use it, but don't complain to me because it's not my problem. If
you want to upgrade to the third millenium, then upgrade your software.
  Secondly, how my site is "broken"? It's 100% valid standard HTML 4 and
it works ok with a modern browser.

-- 
#macro M(A,N,D,L)plane{-z,-9pigment{mandel L*9translate N color_map{[0rgb x]
[1rgb 9]}scale<D,D*3D>*1e3}rotate y*A*8}#end M(-3<1.206434.28623>70,7)M(
-1<.7438.1795>1,20)M(1<.77595.13699>30,20)M(3<.75923.07145>80,99)// - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:

>   Besides, complaining that someone uses features which a 5 years old browser

The version of Netscape I am using is only 2 years old. My operating system is
2.5 years older than that.

-- 
Ken Tyler

Post a reply to this message

Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:
> The version of Netscape I am using is only 2 years old. My operating system is
> 2.5 years older than that.

  The fact that some minor update has been made to the browser 2 years ago
does not mean that it represents the top-of-the-line technology of HTML
rendering of 2 years ago. The HTML engine used by Netscape 4 is a lot older
than that and it hasn't been updated in any relevant way. Besides, 2 years
is a whole lot of time when speaking about computers.
  From what I can interpret from www.netscape.com, they don't even support
Netscape 4 anymore. At least I couldn't easily find any link to download it.
They have obviously stopped developing and supporting that version long time
ago (in favor of Netscape 6/7). This means that the longer you use that
version, the older it will get, and there will most probably be no updates
to it in order to add support for new technologies.

  So Netscape 4 is not supported nor developed anymore, it's old, it does
not support current standards and probably less than 1% of people use it
nowadays, and there's a newer and more modern version of the browser
supporting most of the current standards, freely downloadable.
  Why should I support Netscape 4? I see no good reason for that.

-- 
#macro M(A,N,D,L)plane{-z,-9pigment{mandel L*9translate N color_map{[0rgb x]
[1rgb 9]}scale<D,D*3D>*1e3}rotate y*A*8}#end M(-3<1.206434.28623>70,7)M(
-1<.7438.1795>1,20)M(1<.77595.13699>30,20)M(3<.75923.07145>80,99)// - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:

>   So Netscape 4 is not supported nor developed anymore,

And Windows 98 is no longer in development yet 10's of millions of people
worldwide are still using it as are millions of people still using Netscape
4.x browsers. I consider it a poor design choice on your part to exclude those
people who use it and it certainly speaks poorly of your customer service
attitude. If you want your site completely usable by only 5-10% of all the
worlds computer users fine but don't expect me to keep upgrading to keep up
with it. Since there are reasonable alternatives that would satisfy everyone
your arguments are worthless.

P.S. I was running POV-Ray v2.2 in DOS today and it worked great. So much
for cutting edge technology.

-- 
Ken Tyler

Post a reply to this message

http://www.alistapart.com/stories/tohell/

Only in jest, of course. A little something I found tonight while trying to
figure out why IE6 isn't up to par like Netscape 6 (and 7?) on the CSS
stuff. Unrelated I guess.

I do see your side to this, commonality still holds a place out there on the
Internet. It's also obviously getting more and more upstaged by the changes
taking place in web browsing with every new "standard" devised.

Something I learned during that search, for which I never got a answer
exactly (yet), was that NS4.7 is said to have trouble with tables if a
graphic is right-aligned, or some such thing. Text can end up under it. Just
pointing out the fact older browser versions do have their faults and
sometimes it can help to upgrade if not for modernizing but just to be bug
free. Ultimately the user decides that themselves. And actually I saw a
similar thing occur while making a table for a web page recently, IE6 though
and not NS.

Post a reply to this message

Ken wrote:
> 
> The version of Netscape I am using...

...is ancient. And BROKEN.

For gods' sakes, Ken, stop acting like a fucking baby and upgrade 
already. Or don't. Personally I don't care; if you want everything to 
render wrong in your browser - and as time goes by, it will - so be it. 
Your arguments are so ridiculous, and your opinion so obviously set, 
that I can't justify the waste of time it would be to try to counter 
them with rational, calm debate. In time, harsh reality will make all 
such arguments in my stead.

And that's all *I* have to say about that.

-Xplo

Post a reply to this message

In article <3d712290@news.povray.org> , Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg>  wrote:

>  I don't really want to degrade the pages because of an old and obsolete
> browser.

Well, that is the wrong attitude.  Remember there are a billion pages to
visit on the web.  If your page is crap people will just turn to one of the
999999999 other pages.  So if you are at all interested at people looking at
your page, you better get it to work correctly for everyone!

One solution is to stay away from crap like CSS2 and other nonsense.
Remember that the point of the web is not forcing people to upgrade to
whatever browser you like but to make ***content*** available.  If you fail
to present the content in a readable manner people will just ignore it.
There is more to see than just your one page, and there will always be an
alternate source they can use.  Soon thereafter your page will be
irrelevant!

Or as someone who knows well said "Forget the Web's Realities? You Die" [1].


    Thorsten


[1] <http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20010819.html>

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

Post a reply to this message

In article <3d7130fc@news.povray.org> , Xplo Eristotle <xpl### [at] infomagicnet>
wrote:

> If the site is written correctly, then it is your browser that is
> broken, not the site.

This is the biggest bullshit I have read in a long time!

There is no standard for HTML that requires it to render like crap.  Nor is
CSS required anywhere.  If you like to follow "recommendations" by a
industry interest group like the W3C, you lost sense of reality.  See for
yourself:  <http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List>

So it is really that far now that people start telling me I have to follow
what a bunch of self appointed companies say I should?  Oh great.  When they
tell you whom to vote for in the next election, will you also follow them?

On the other hand, if you follow the ISO HTML standard (ISO/IEC 15445)
rather than the W3C crap you get pages that work everywhere.  Not really
surprising as the ISO committees are usually experts rather than companies
who only represent self-interests...


    Thorsten


____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

Post a reply to this message

In article <3d7169a5@news.povray.org> , Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg>  wrote:

>   Secondly, how my site is "broken"? It's 100% valid standard HTML 4 and
> it works ok with a modern browser.

Does it really conform to ISO HTML?  The W3C does not set standards, they
give (bad) "recommendations".  There is a big difference between standards
and recommendations!

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

Post a reply to this message

In article <3d7169a5@news.povray.org> , Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg>  wrote:

>   Firstly, if you don't want to upgrade your browser to a newer version,
> that's your problem, not mine. If you want to use an old browser, then
> fine, use it, but don't complain to me because it's not my problem.

Remind me to vote for  only providing Pentium 4 and PowerPC G4 versions of
POV-Ray next time.  After all, if you are using old and broken processors
that lack some important instructions you don't deserve to use POV-Ray!

Does this mirror help your attitude?

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

Post a reply to this message

In article <3d71c1cd@news.povray.org> , Xplo Eristotle <xpl### [at] infomagicnet>
wrote:

> For gods' sakes, Ken, stop acting like a fucking baby and upgrade
> already. Or don't.

No, you are wrong and Ken is right.  You are producing nonsense and then
complain if Ken tells you.  Well ... keep in mind there are people who
actually *work* with their computer using it as *tool* rather than as a
*toy* spending countless hours hunting for the latest updates.  If that is
your only hobby, maybe you should seek counseling...

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

Post a reply to this message

Thorsten Froehlich <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
> So it is really that far now that people start telling me I have to follow
> what a bunch of self appointed companies say I should?  Oh great.  When they
> tell you whom to vote for in the next election, will you also follow them?

  Your attitude is really strange (specially considering that even the
POV-Ray HTML help uses CSS and needs at least a certain version of IE).

  The recommendations and standards set by the W3C are things that browsers
are supporting or will be supporting in the near future if they want to
keep up with the progress.

  You talk like the situation was a lot better years ago, when every browser
had their own non-standard extensions and other browsers tried to copy those
extensions in order to keep up.
  Now there's one standard to follow, and you say that's a bad thing? Sorry,
but I don't agree with you.

  This "CSS sucks" attitude really amazes me. Come on people. Wake up.
Whining that old browsers don't support CSS is exactly as stupid as whining
that new games don't work with older versions of DirectX: So what? Upgrade
your DirectX. Simple.

-- 
#macro M(A,N,D,L)plane{-z,-9pigment{mandel L*9translate N color_map{[0rgb x]
[1rgb 9]}scale<D,D*3D>*1e3}rotate y*A*8}#end M(-3<1.206434.28623>70,7)M(
-1<.7438.1795>1,20)M(1<.77595.13699>30,20)M(3<.75923.07145>80,99)// - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:
> If you want your site completely usable by only 5-10% of all the
> worlds computer users

  I would really like to know where did you get those numbers. You don't
seriously claim that only 5-10% of computer users in the world are using
Internet Explorer or Netscape 6 or Mozilla?
  This would mean that, according to you, 90% of people are using Netscape 4.

-- 
#macro M(A,N,D,L)plane{-z,-9pigment{mandel L*9translate N color_map{[0rgb x]
[1rgb 9]}scale<D,D*3D>*1e3}rotate y*A*8}#end M(-3<1.206434.28623>70,7)M(
-1<.7438.1795>1,20)M(1<.77595.13699>30,20)M(3<.75923.07145>80,99)// - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

In article <3d720276@news.povray.org> , Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg>  wrote:

>   Your attitude is really strange (specially considering that even the
> POV-Ray HTML help uses CSS and needs at least a certain version of IE).

It does not.  Never did.  It works completely without it.  Besides, when did
_I_ create Windows HTML help?  Microsoft created it and set the
requirements, not me!

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

Post a reply to this message

Thorsten Froehlich <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
> No, you are wrong and Ken is right.  You are producing nonsense and then
> complain if Ken tells you.  Well ... keep in mind there are people who
> actually *work* with their computer using it as *tool* rather than as a
> *toy* spending countless hours hunting for the latest updates.  If that is
> your only hobby, maybe you should seek counseling...

  What you are saying there is just nonsense.
  Installing the newest Netscape takes probably about 10 minutes, and that's
it. It's not like you have to do it every day.

-- 
#macro N(D)#if(D>99)cylinder{M()#local D=div(D,104);M().5,2pigment{rgb M()}}
N(D)#end#end#macro M()<mod(D,13)-6mod(div(D,13)8)-3,10>#end blob{
N(11117333955)N(4254934330)N(3900569407)N(7382340)N(3358)N(970)}//  - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

In article <3d720276@news.povray.org> , Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg>  wrote:

>   This "CSS sucks" attitude really amazes me. Come on people. Wake up.

The web is about ***content***, not layout.  Don't you get it?

You want to present your content, but you focus on unreadable layout and
supposedly neat features nobody needs that just cause problems (and I warned
you before that they would).  That is the problem I am having with your
attitude.  Not more, not less.

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

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Thorsten Froehlich <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
> they give (bad) "recommendations".

  That's really something I don't understand from you.

  If you consider W3C recommendations bad, then please immediately remove
CSS support from the POV-Ray HTML help and from the povray.org website.
If you don't then stop being so double-faced.
  IMHO it's hypocrisy to defame something and judge people for thinking that
people should upgrade their programs, but at the same time use those things
you defame and require people to upgrade to programs which support them.

  So you consider CSS bad. That probably means that you consider the old
method better, where you write all the definitions separately to each tag
(and if you want to change something, you change it everywhere separately).
  The reason why you think this way goes beyond me.

-- 
#macro N(D)#if(D>99)cylinder{M()#local D=div(D,104);M().5,2pigment{rgb M()}}
N(D)#end#end#macro M()<mod(D,13)-6mod(div(D,13)8)-3,10>#end blob{
N(11117333955)N(4254934330)N(3900569407)N(7382340)N(3358)N(970)}//  - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

In article <3d720450@news.povray.org> , Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg>  wrote:

>   Installing the newest Netscape takes probably about 10 minutes, and that's
> it. It's not like you have to do it every day.

And two hours to download, don't forget that.  Somepople do not have a 10
Mbit university Ethernet connection.  Or DSL...

And besides, to install a new software every day (it does not stop at web
browsers), that is a lost work time of serveral percent.  Time is money.

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

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Thorsten Froehlich <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
> Remind me to vote for  only providing Pentium 4 and PowerPC G4 versions of
> POV-Ray next time.  After all, if you are using old and broken processors
> that lack some important instructions you don't deserve to use POV-Ray!

> Does this mirror help your attitude?

  Do game houses make versions which work with DirectX 1? Or even 7? No. Why?
  Do programmers make programs which work with Windows 3.1? No. Why?
  Do the pov-team make the html-help of POV-Ray to work with IE 1? No. Why?

  Stop that bullshit already.
  You know what is the difference between your example and the issue in
question, but your pride does not allow you to publicly admit it.

-- 
#macro N(D)#if(D>99)cylinder{M()#local D=div(D,104);M().5,2pigment{rgb M()}}
N(D)#end#end#macro M()<mod(D,13)-6mod(div(D,13)8)-3,10>#end blob{
N(11117333955)N(4254934330)N(3900569407)N(7382340)N(3358)N(970)}//  - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

In article <3d7206fa@news.povray.org> , Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg>  wrote:

>   If you consider W3C recommendations bad, then please immediately remove
> CSS support from the POV-Ray HTML help and from the povray.org website.
> If you don't then stop being so double-faced.

You are wrong here.  Completely wrong.  And you are missing something very
important.  I did not design povray.org.  I implemented most of the HTML
based on a POV-Team approved design and layout.  It neither was nor is my
place to change the design and layout that was agreed upon.  Working in a
team means that there will be decisions I do am necessarily absolutely happy
about.  That does not mean I cannot or will not implement them.  But that
does not mean I cannot have my own opinion either.

In any case, this is completely besides the point.  Or do you see flying
menus, popup CSS menus or any such non-working crap on povray.org?  Guess
why you do not see it...

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

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Thorsten Froehlich <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
> One solution is to stay away from crap like CSS2 and other nonsense.

  Please immediately remove all CSS from the POV-Ray HTML help and povray.org
site, or either stop that bullshit. Thanks.

  Besides, how many % of people are using Netscape 4 and refuse to upgrade?

  And please explain me why CSS is crap and why the old system was better.

-- 
#macro M(A,N,D,L)plane{-z,-9pigment{mandel L*9translate N color_map{[0rgb x]
[1rgb 9]}scale<D,D*3D>*1e3}rotate y*A*8}#end M(-3<1.206434.28623>70,7)M(
-1<.7438.1795>1,20)M(1<.77595.13699>30,20)M(3<.75923.07145>80,99)// - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

Thorsten Froehlich <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
> The web is about ***content***, not layout.  Don't you get it?

  Have you taken a look at povray.org lately? I see a lot of layout there.
  Please stop being so hypocrite.

> You want to present your content, but you focus on unreadable layout

  So how many % of people are seeing "unreadable layout"? Less than 1%
perhaps? And that's only because they refuse to upgrade their browser,
which is a 10-minutes operation.
  No, I still don't agree with you.

-- 
#macro N(D)#if(D>99)cylinder{M()#local D=div(D,104);M().5,2pigment{rgb M()}}
N(D)#end#end#macro M()<mod(D,13)-6mod(div(D,13)8)-3,10>#end blob{
N(11117333955)N(4254934330)N(3900569407)N(7382340)N(3358)N(970)}//  - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

In article <3d720827@news.povray.org> , Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg>  wrote:

>   Do game houses make versions which work with DirectX 1? Or even 7? No. Why?

Who work with computers every day for a living?  hardly those who play games
all day...

>   Do programmers make programs which work with Windows 3.1? No. Why?

Because it is not Y2K compliant and thus nobody is using it anymore.

>   Do the pov-team make the html-help of POV-Ray to work with IE 1? No. Why?

I did answer this already, so why do you bring it up again and again?  If
Windows HTML help requires IE 4 by design, well, then it does, but nobody
but Microsfot can do anything about it.

Does the povray.org or Mac HTML help version require CSS?  No, because
Microsoft did not require it and so we have no need to do so either.

>   Stop that bullshit already.
>   You know what is the difference between your example and the issue in
> question, but your pride does not allow you to publicly admit it.

No, yu made completely broken site.  You knew in advande it would cuase
problems.  Now you don't want to admit this.

If you like I can post the screenshots I posted in the TAG group in p.b.i
for everybody to see.  I planned to give you a convinient way out by just
silently fixing it, but no need for me to do so if you don't want me being
nice...

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

Post a reply to this message

Thorsten Froehlich <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
> In any case, this is completely besides the point.  Or do you see flying
> menus, popup CSS menus or any such non-working crap on povray.org?  Guess
> why you do not see it...

  Ah, now you are changing your attitude. Now only *some* features of CSS
are crap, not everything in it.

  You have still failed to explain why CSS is crap.

-- 
#macro M(A,N,D,L)plane{-z,-9pigment{mandel L*9translate N color_map{[0rgb x]
[1rgb 9]}scale<D,D*3D>*1e3}rotate y*A*8}#end M(-3<1.206434.28623>70,7)M(
-1<.7438.1795>1,20)M(1<.77595.13699>30,20)M(3<.75923.07145>80,99)// - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

In article <3d7209c5@news.povray.org> , Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg>  wrote:

>   So how many % of people are seeing "unreadable layout"? Less than 1%
> perhaps? And that's only because they refuse to upgrade their browser,
> which is a 10-minutes operation.
>   No, I still don't agree with you.

More than 10% of all POV-Ray 3.5 users who turn to your page.  All Mac users
that would be.  Plus the "rest".  I have not checked on how many other
browsers your site breaks.

And what you apply is unreasonable standards.  Maybe this will explain it
better:

"Note that no distinction is made between patches which are themselves buggy
and patches which expose "latent" bugs elsewhere in the compiler."
<http://gcc.gnu.org/develop.html>

to be read as

"Note that no distinction is made between layout which is itself buggy and
layout which exposes "latent" layout problems elsewhere in the browser."


____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

Post a reply to this message

In article <3d7208be@news.povray.org> , Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg>  wrote:

> Thorsten Froehlich <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
>> One solution is to stay away from crap like CSS2 and other nonsense.
>
>   Please immediately remove all CSS from the <snip> povray.org
> site, or either stop that bullshit. Thanks.

It does not use CSS2, if you would bother to check...

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

Post a reply to this message

In article <3d720a8a@news.povray.org> , Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg>  wrote:

>   You have still failed to explain why CSS is crap.

I said CSS2, if you had only read my posts.  Apart from that, you are
quoting me out of context and try to turn my words around.  Read the first
paragraph or else you force me to remove all structure from my posts and use
only single paragraph posts to prevent such quoting style.

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

Post a reply to this message

> > One solution is to stay away from crap like CSS2 and other nonsense.
> 
>   Please immediately remove all CSS from the POV-Ray HTML help and povray.org
> site, or either stop that bullshit. Thanks.

Last I knew, Ingo was teh documentation coordinator...

And this is now *way* off topic for this group IMO.
 
>   Besides, how many % of people are using Netscape 4 and refuse to upgrade?

I still use it occasionally on my system when Opera won't render a page 
properly.  It's still used almost exclusively on my mother's PC 
downstairs.  My brother again uses it when Opera doesn't render a page 
properly, and uses it on his laptop.

At least four of my friends use it.

Jamie.

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Warp wrote:
> 
> Thorsten Froehlich <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
> > One solution is to stay away from crap like CSS2 and other nonsense.
> 
>   Please immediately remove all CSS from the POV-Ray HTML help and povray.org
> site, or either stop that bullshit. Thanks.

Nice discussion, but don't you think this would be much more adequate in
.off-topic?

>   Besides, how many % of people are using Netscape 4 and refuse to upgrade?

I'm still using Netscape 4 regularly and i know a lot of reasons why one
should use it.  More than 10% of my website visitors use Netscape 3 or 4
BTW.

Christoph

-- 
POV-Ray tutorials, IsoWood include,                 
TransSkin and more: http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0013390/  
Last updated 13 Aug. 2002 _____./\/^>_*_<^\/\.______

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Warp wrote:

>   Besides, how many % of people are using Netscape 4 and refuse to upgrade?

Refuse to do so?

I haven't upgraded simply because I have yet to find a compelling reason to do so.
I have spent literally thousands of hours using this program in its present form
and I am very comfortable with it. I have the views all set the way I like them, my
preferences are set where I need them, my email and newsgroup filters are all in
place, my news groups are properly identified and view as I like them to and most
importantly my bookmarks file is layed out, structured and functioning perfectly.
Every time I have upgraded a browser in the past they have made changes or additions
that annoyed the hell out of me. Can you assure me that absolutely nothing that
I am comfortable with now will change if I upgrade, especially with regards to the
bookmarks feature in Netscape and the way messages are viewed in the mail and news
clients? Do you know both versions so well you can make that recommendation with
100% confidence that I will be 100% satisified with the outcome? I don't think so!

-- 
Ken Tyler

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In article <3D7214A1.83859343@gmx.de> , Christoph Hormann 
<chr### [at] gmxde>  wrote:

> Nice discussion, but don't you think this would be much more adequate in
> .off-topic?

I don't read p.off-topic.... ;-)

But otherwise you are more or less right.  On the other hand it is about the
readability of an important POV-Ray resources................


____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

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In article <3D7219E3.5B7F344A@pacbell.net> , Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet>  
wrote:

> I haven't upgraded simply because I have yet to find a compelling reason to do
> so. I have spent literally thousands of hours using this program in its
> present form and I am very comfortable with it. I have the views all set the
> way I like them, my preferences are set where I need them, my email and
> newsgroup filters are all in place, my news groups are properly identified and
> view as I like them to and most importantly my bookmarks file is layed out,
> structured and functioning perfectly. Every time I have upgraded a browser in
> the past they have made changes or additions that annoyed the hell out of me.
> Can you assure me that absolutely nothing that I am comfortable with now will
> change if I upgrade, especially with regards to the bookmarks feature in
> Netscape and the way messages are viewed in the mail and news clients? Do you
> know both versions so well you can make that recommendation with 100%
> confidence that I will be 100% satisified with the outcome? I don't think so!

Most important, I yet i have to figure out where IE stores its bookmark file
on Windows.  Not sure about Mozilla either.

And the scripts that build the links collection (btw, it should have been
updated on povray.org by now) depend on the Netscape 4.x bookmark file to
extract all in information.  They would fail should the format change...

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

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Thorsten Froehlich wrote:

> And the scripts that build the links collection (btw, it should have been
> updated on povray.org by now) depend on the Netscape 4.x bookmark file to
> extract all in information.  They would fail should the format change...

One of my major fears had been that it would break the povray.org links page
update facility. Thanks for getting the update finished. I was exploring the
changes just before reading this last message. I only noted a couple of typos
on my part, which means there are probably a dozen more or so that I missed
<sigh!>.

-- 
Ken Tyler

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"Thorsten Froehlich" <tho### [at] trfde> wrote in message
news:3d721dc2$1@news.povray.org...
> Most important, I yet i have to figure out where IE stores its bookmark
file
> on Windows.  Not sure about Mozilla either.
>


    They're in your Favourites folder - they're just stored as shortcuts,
rather than a list of URLs in a file - if you want to export them to a file
go to File->Import/Export (for I.E 6 at least, previous version may be
different (though, not in terms of the Favourites folder))...

--
Pandora/Scott Hill/[::O:M:C::]Scorpion
Software Engineer.
http://www.pandora-software.com

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