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Well why not ?
Pov as it currently exists is still given away to all who care to play
Commercial versions are developed as seamless plugins for the big expensive
3d environments - such as Maya & max. closed source and with a different
licence.
cash raised could be used to pay for the web services, pay someone to
support the commercial versions, etc etc etc
--
Rick
Kitty5 WebDesign - http://Kitty5.com
POV-Ray News & Resources - http://Povray.co.uk
TEL : +44 (01270) 501101 - FAX : +44 (01270) 251105 - ICQ : 15776037
PGP Public Key
http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x231E1CEA
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> Well why not ?
Come on.... This is what makes Povray special and the reason I'm here
today.. I'm so tired of seeing freeware getting ad-supported and so on..
Commercialism is evil as it controls the world.. Free cooperation between
people is something more valuable.
Regards,
Hugo
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Rick [Kitty5] <ric### [at] kitty5 com> wrote:
> Well why not ?
Because making it commercial will make sure that it will lose popularity
and that its developement will eventually stop (why develop something nobody
is buying?).
--
#macro N(D)#if(D>99)cylinder{M()#local D=div(D,104);M().5,2pigment{rgb M()}}
N(D)#end#end#macro M()<mod(D,13)-6mod(div(D,13)8)-3,10>#end blob{
N(11117333955)N(4254934330)N(3900569407)N(7382340)N(3358)N(970)}// - Warp -
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> Because making it commercial will make sure that it will lose popularity
> and that its developement will eventually stop (why develop something
nobody
> is buying?).
This is a strange thing I mentioned already. Most people obviously think
that the author of the software just wants to make personal profit. I think
this is caused by Microsoft.
Nobody thinks that the fee ist used just for covering costs while
development is still free and unpayed.
I think you are right in expecting a loss of popularity. Sad but true.
regards
SY
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> > Well why not ?
>
> Because making it commercial will make sure that it will lose popularity
> and that its developement will eventually stop (why develop something
nobody
> is buying?).
you missed the point
pov is still distributed as it is now for free, and separate commercial
versions are created to integrate with commercial packages that cost a
fortune anyhow.
if you can afford max/Maya (etc) then you can certainly afford the dedicated
pov plug-in, the rest of us will just have to continue doing what we're
doing right now
--
Rick
Kitty5 WebDesign - http://Kitty5.com
POV-Ray News & Resources - http://Povray.co.uk
TEL : +44 (01270) 501101 - FAX : +44 (01270) 251105 - ICQ : 15776037
PGP Public Key
http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x231E1CEA
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> > Because making it commercial will make sure that it will lose
popularity
> > and that its developement will eventually stop (why develop something
> nobody
> > is buying?).
>
> This is a strange thing I mentioned already. Most people obviously think
> that the author of the software just wants to make personal profit.
Unfortunatly even the pov developers have a need to put food on the table
from time to time
> I think
> this is caused by Microsoft.
along with your eggs not being runny enough and getting sand in your shorts.
> Nobody thinks that the fee ist used just for covering costs while
> development is still free and unpayed.
>
> I think you are right in expecting a loss of popularity. Sad but true.
Max/Maya are fiendishly expensive, and both fiendishly popular
--
Rick
Kitty5 WebDesign - http://Kitty5.com
POV-Ray News & Resources - http://Povray.co.uk
TEL : +44 (01270) 501101 - FAX : +44 (01270) 251105 - ICQ : 15776037
PGP Public Key
http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x231E1CEA
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["Rick [Kitty5]" <ric### [at] kitty5com>]
| pov is still distributed as it is now for free, and separate commercial
| versions are created to integrate with commercial packages that cost a
| fortune anyhow.
I think POV-Ray would find it hard to enter a market dominated by Renderman.
Sure, POV-Ray is a ray-tracer, but so is BMRT, and BMRT is Renderman compliant,
whilst POV-Ray is not.
BMRT was actually used in a scene in "A Bug's Life" because ray-tracing
was needed for a glass object.
--
It's a dark day for mad science.
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> > I think
> > this is caused by Microsoft.
>
> along with your eggs not being runny enough and getting sand in your
shorts.
At least the acceptance of program crashes and failures increased heavily
from the days on more and more people used PCs at home, getting the
"personal crash" at home. :) Which one might see as a positive effect.
> Max/Maya are fiendishly expensive, and both fiendishly popular
Yes, but how popular would they be if they were for free?
We were talking about a loss of popularity for PoV not about popularity in
general or in comparison to other products.
Don't you think that PoV would loose users when turning to shareware?
regards
SY
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> I think you are right in expecting a loss of popularity. Sad but true.
Every program would be more popular if it was free.
My last word to this discussion.
Regards,
Hugo
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On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 14:51:56 -0000, Rick [Kitty5] wrote:
>> > Because making it commercial will make sure that it will lose
> popularity
>> > and that its developement will eventually stop (why develop something
>> nobody
>> > is buying?).
>>
>> This is a strange thing I mentioned already. Most people obviously think
>> that the author of the software just wants to make personal profit.
>
> Unfortunatly even the pov developers have a need to put food on the table
> from time to time
That's why we have day jobs.
--
#macro R(L P)sphere{L F}cylinder{L P F}#end#macro P(V)merge{R(z+a z)R(-z a-z)R(a
-z-z-z a+z)torus{1F clipped_by{plane{a 0}}}translate V}#end#macro Z(a F T)merge{
P(z+a)P(z-a)R(-z-z-x a)pigment{rgbt 1}hollow interior{media{emission T}}finish{
reflection.1}}#end Z(-x-x.2y)Z(-x-x.4x)camera{location z*-10rotate x*90}
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Phew! Three days closed in my anti-atomic bunker kept me safe from that toxic cloud
which seems to have crossed this newsgroup recently...
--
Jonathan.
"Rick [Kitty5]" <ric### [at] kitty5com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:3c970111@news.povray.org...
> Well why not ?
>
> Pov as it currently exists is still given away to all who care to play
>
> Commercial versions are developed as seamless plugins for the big expensive
> 3d environments - such as Maya & max. closed source and with a different
> licence.
>
> cash raised could be used to pay for the web services, pay someone to
> support the commercial versions, etc etc etc
>
> --
>
> Rick
>
> Kitty5 WebDesign - http://Kitty5.com
> POV-Ray News & Resources - http://Povray.co.uk
> TEL : +44 (01270) 501101 - FAX : +44 (01270) 251105 - ICQ : 15776037
>
> PGP Public Key
> http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x231E1CEA
>
>
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Yes it would, but not most of them. The problem, as I stated in the other
thread on this issue, is that commercialization would kill the volunteer
support, yet not generate enough income to pay for the necessary
labor. The result would be the death of POV-Ray.
Harold
"Jürgen Scharfy" <sch### [at] surfeuat> wrote in message
news:3c975235$1@news.povray.org...
>
> Don't you think that PoV would loose users when turning to shareware?
> regards
> SY
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It might not lose _users_ of Pov in general- but it would certainly lose
those who didn't have a copy of good old 3.1g installation file squirreled
away }:-)
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> > I think you are right in expecting a loss of popularity. Sad but true.
>
> Every program would be more popular if it was free.
> My last word to this discussion.
Linux & associated apps are free, yet it has less than 1% of the desktop
market. Why?
Rick
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> | pov is still distributed as it is now for free, and separate commercial
> | versions are created to integrate with commercial packages that cost a
> | fortune anyhow.
>
> I think POV-Ray would find it hard to enter a market dominated by
Renderman.
> Sure, POV-Ray is a ray-tracer, but so is BMRT, and BMRT is Renderman
compliant,
> whilst POV-Ray is not.
>
> BMRT was actually used in a scene in "A Bug's Life" because ray-tracing
> was needed for a glass object.
harder still if it never tries.
Rick
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Rick [Kitty5] <ric### [at] kitty5com> wrote:
> Linux & associated apps are free, yet it has less than 1% of the desktop
> market. Why?
You will not make POV-Ray as popular as Windows just by making it
commercial. You need a lot more than that (many of these means are morally
and even legally questionable).
--
#macro N(D)#if(D>99)cylinder{M()#local D=div(D,104);M().5,2pigment{rgb M()}}
N(D)#end#end#macro M()<mod(D,13)-6mod(div(D,13)8)-3,10>#end blob{
N(11117333955)N(4254934330)N(3900569407)N(7382340)N(3358)N(970)}// - Warp -
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The second a free program goes commercial, people start developing more
free programs to replace it just like the GNU project did to commercial
UNIX's.
Brendan
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> Linux & associated apps are free, yet it has less than 1% of the desktop
> market. Why?
Apache Web server is free and has more than 50% of the web server market...
Given enough numbers, you can prove whatever your point is.
It's just a matter of isolating the 'right' number!
(right: good, according to the view to demonstrate.)
Moreover, how do you collect number of the desktop market ?
By cash flow ??? Then of course free desktop count less than expensive one.
And with the MS licence upgrade system, I currently would count as
a 4 MS home system: DOS, W3.11, W95 and W98. Whereas I only kept W98 installed.
Given that after W98, there was WME and now XP that the mass would have
upgraded to, by how much should you adjust the numbers ?
Side note: My system is a dual-boot with Linux, and main serious work
is perform under Linux. I currently kept W98 only for DVD playing, mpeg works
and internet connection (I'm just too lazy to configure that on Linux).
And I really prefer the free StarOffice 5.2 to the 'I cannot afford-bureautic' of MS.
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"Jérôme Grimbert" <jer### [at] atosorigincom> wrote :
>
> Moreover, how do you collect number of the desktop market ?
<snip>
> Side note: My system is a dual-boot with Linux, and main serious work
> is perform under Linux.
There! You get counted under Linux. In answer to your question, you ask
people what OS they primarily use. Haven't you seen those surveys?
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Bill DeWitt wrote:
> There! You get counted under Linux.
Nope...
>In answer to your question, you ask
> people what OS they primarily use. Haven't you seen those surveys?
I avoid surveys as well as dissiminating personal data around to unknown org.
How accurate can be a surveys were only thus who want can answer ?
How can you trust the answers, and therefore the surveys ?
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"Hugo" <hua### [at] post3teledk> wrote in message
news:3c971728@news.povray.org...
> Commercialism is evil as it controls the world.. Free cooperation between
> people is something more valuable.
Very true
Regards,
Gleb
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"Jérôme Grimbert" <jer### [at] atosorigincom> wrote :
>
> I avoid surveys as well as dissiminating personal data around to unknown
org.
> How accurate can be a surveys were only thus who want can answer ?
> How can you trust the answers, and therefore the surveys ?
Because your sort of avoidance is usually small enough to vanish into
noise. Also because if the circumstance are right, as survey preparers work
long hours to accomplish, people like you -would- answer enough questions to
get a good sample. I mean, you answered it today...
They know that a certain percentage of Linux users are paranoid, as are
a certain percentage of Mac users and Windows users and they account for
this.
It is really quite interesting. They do sample surveys, compare that
data to real life, then make adjustments and try again. When the variance
disappears into noise, they are pretty sure that they have a good survey
and -then- and -only- then do successful businesses invest millions of
dollars into a product based upon the data.
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On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 14:51:56 -0000, "Rick [Kitty5]" <ric### [at] kitty5com>
wrote:
>Max/Maya are fiendishly expensive, and both fiendishly popular
Recent investigation showed an almost 20:1 ratio of pirated vs. legal
copies of Max *in use* (not counting the countless kids who d/led it
off a warez site to play with it).
And I am not talking about Bulgaria, I'm talking worldwide.
Peter Popov ICQ : 15002700
Personal e-mail : pet### [at] vipbg
TAG e-mail : pet### [at] tagpovrayorg
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Let's consider some other topics:
free software can only survive providing quality product to an existing
community of users. On the opposite software company can use their
commercial force to spread their products (who has ever seen a PC
configuration including Pov in any shop) and create needs or envies at
customer level (even with blue screen).
Pov is a ray tracer, and if it is not physically reallistic, it is
dedicated to people who prefer refined work rather than productivity. I've
played with 3DS max. and I did'nt like the menu appoach, the fake
effects...; but I have to say that I would use this tool (3DS) in a
profesional context (huge quantity of features, plugins, models..).
Generally, companies fear to work with freeware. One of the reason is
that their main cost is not license fees, but the human workload. That's why
they often prefer to pay for software, from market leader, assuming that
they will find a better (paying) support, a longer product life, more
skilled people... I do not totally agree with this, but it is the trend I
can see (in europe).
Playing with a freeware make me feel to be part of a community of
people, sharing the same hobby. Using a software make me feel to be a
consumer: less positive.
Chaps.
"Jérôme Grimbert" <jer### [at] atosorigincom> wrote in message
news:3C983A63.5F82C7E9@atosorigin.com...
>
> > Linux & associated apps are free, yet it has less than 1% of the desktop
> > market. Why?
>
> Apache Web server is free and has more than 50% of the web server
market...
> Given enough numbers, you can prove whatever your point is.
> It's just a matter of isolating the 'right' number!
>
> (right: good, according to the view to demonstrate.)
>
> Moreover, how do you collect number of the desktop market ?
> By cash flow ??? Then of course free desktop count less than expensive
one.
> And with the MS licence upgrade system, I currently would count as
> a 4 MS home system: DOS, W3.11, W95 and W98. Whereas I only kept W98
installed.
> Given that after W98, there was WME and now XP that the mass would have
> upgraded to, by how much should you adjust the numbers ?
>
> Side note: My system is a dual-boot with Linux, and main serious work
> is perform under Linux. I currently kept W98 only for DVD playing, mpeg
works
> and internet connection (I'm just too lazy to configure that on Linux).
> And I really prefer the free StarOffice 5.2 to the 'I cannot
afford-bureautic' of MS.
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> Linux & associated apps are free, yet it has less than 1% of the desktop
> market. Why?
until now... Wait for koffice (still in an early stage, I know) or the gnome
equivalents. When such applications become an alternative to MS Office (and
when they are able to handle MS documents like there own) there should be no
reason for most companys not to use OS software. And they will, because
support for OS software is much better, there is faster reaction on problems
and new standards can be established without the limitations beeing forced
to one company. Just wait and see, how OS will develope...
Florian
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"Florian Pesth" <fpe### [at] webde> wrote in message
news:3c99f016@news.povray.org...
> > Linux & associated apps are free, yet it has less than 1% of the desktop
> > market. Why?
> until now... Wait for koffice (still in an early stage, I know) or the
gnome
> equivalents. When such applications become an alternative to MS Office
(and
> when they are able to handle MS documents like there own) there should be
no
> reason for most companys not to use OS software.
Which OS? Linux? Well, most people I know would not use it even if it
~could~ read Office documents, they would still say "But it's not
compatible!"
> And they will, because
> support for OS software is much better, there is faster reaction on
problems
> and new standards can be established without the limitations beeing forced
> to one company. Just wait and see, how OS will develope...
Again, which OS?
> Florian
...Chambers
PS Anyone know how to set followups in OE?
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.323 / Virus Database: 180 - Release Date: 2/8/2002
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> Which OS? Linux? Well, most people I know would not use it even if it
> ~could~ read Office documents, they would still say "But it's not
> compatible!"
;) OS is also used for "open source", so I mean GNU / Unix or Linux. I think
for the most work it would be compatible enough, if you think about for what
Word is used in the most cases. But it could be a psychological question as
"Oh this buttons looks different from MS Word". BTW at the moment there is
no export filter for Word, there is an import filter, but I haven't tested
it yet. I prefer Latex for my text work, but this is a completely different
thing...
> PS Anyone know how to set followups in OE?
No...
Best regards
Florian
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"Ben Chambers" <bdc### [at] yahoocom> wrote :
>
> PS Anyone know how to set followups in OE?
First you have to set the 'view' to see 'all headers'. Then the
follow-ups field shows and you can click on it to set follow-ups...
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> >Max/Maya are fiendishly expensive, and both fiendishly popular
>
> Recent investigation showed an almost 20:1 ratio of pirated vs. legal
> copies of Max *in use* (not counting the countless kids who d/led it
> off a warez site to play with it).
>
> And I am not talking about Bulgaria, I'm talking worldwide.
that's not really a bad thing, 'at home joe' is hardly going to use max to
create the next starwars, however if he gets good at it he may end up
working for an employer that buys many copies. The industry is crying out
for highly skilled artists, and the skill level required is not something
that 'at home joe' would realistically be able to achieve through legal
means (like a course or 2). free versions of max & Maya demonstrate their
respective companies understanding of this
--
Rick
Kitty5 WebDesign - http://Kitty5.com
POV-Ray News & Resources - http://Povray.co.uk
TEL : +44 (01270) 501101 - FAX : +44 (01270) 251105 - ICQ : 15776037
PGP Public Key
http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x231E1CEA
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On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 09:05:17 -0000, "Rick [Kitty5]" <ric### [at] kitty5com>
wrote:
>that's not really a bad thing, 'at home joe' is hardly going to use max to
>create the next starwars, however if he gets good at it he may end up
>working for an employer that buys many copies. The industry is crying out
>for highly skilled artists, and the skill level required is not something
>that 'at home joe' would realistically be able to achieve through legal
>means (like a course or 2). free versions of max & Maya demonstrate their
>respective companies understanding of this
I don't consider it bad either because, personally, I have given the
software industry more than I have taken from it, and if I hadn't
taken from it, I would have given it nothing, so it's on the positive
side as far as I am concerned.
That's not the point, though. I wanted to point out that putting a
price tag on good software does not reduce its popularity, only
increase its share in the warez market. It's all in the quality of the
product.
Peter Popov ICQ : 15002700
Personal e-mail : pet### [at] vipbg
TAG e-mail : pet### [at] tagpovrayorg
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Followups to povray.off-topic
> > Linux & associated apps are free, yet it has less than 1% of the desktop
> > market. Why?
> until now... Wait for koffice (still in an early stage, I know) or the
gnome
> equivalents. When such applications become an alternative to MS Office
(and
> when they are able to handle MS documents like there own) there should be
no
> reason for most companys not to use OS software. And they will, because
> support for OS software is much better, there is faster reaction on
problems
> and new standards can be established without the limitations beeing forced
> to one company. Just wait and see, how OS will develope...
Not a hope.
KOffice has 4 (four) developers, it will take them donkeys years to match
office 97, and what do you think MS will be doing with its small army of
developers in the mean time.
The fact that there are K & Gnome (etc etc) attempts at the office suit doom
all to failure, everybody is busy competing instead of collaborating.
Companies do more on their desktops than work in MS office, a powerful
office suit is only one step to the goal of (whatever alternative OS your on
about) on the desktop. and chances are it will be to many, featuring to
little, delivered far to late.
--
Rick
Kitty5 WebDesign - http://Kitty5.com
POV-Ray News & Resources - http://Povray.co.uk
TEL : +44 (01270) 501101 - FAX : +44 (01270) 251105 - ICQ : 15776037
PGP Public Key
http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x231E1CEA
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> free software can only survive providing quality product to an
existing
> community of users. On the opposite software company can use their
> commercial force to spread their products (who has ever seen a PC
> configuration including Pov in any shop) and create needs or envies at
> customer level (even with blue screen).
Not true, the goal of any public software project (free or otherwise) is to
attract users, inwardly looking to an existing user base dooms your project
to obscurity
you will never see pov pre installed on a new home PC, but on that note, you
never see any other 3d rendering system installed either.
> Pov is a ray tracer, and if it is not physically reallistic, it is
> dedicated to people who prefer refined work rather than productivity. I've
> played with 3DS max. and I did'nt like the menu appoach, the fake
> effects...; but I have to say that I would use this tool (3DS) in a
> profesional context (huge quantity of features, plugins, models..).
again, not true. pov & max are both tools that in capable hands can create
stunning works, the amount of 'refinement' often depends on the project in
hand and the users skill level.
Max is a very deap and powerful tool, its not something you can grasp from
just 'playing'
> Generally, companies fear to work with freeware. One of the reason is
> that their main cost is not license fees, but the human workload. That's
why
> they often prefer to pay for software, from market leader, assuming that
> they will find a better (paying) support, a longer product life, more
> skilled people... I do not totally agree with this, but it is the trend I
> can see (in europe).
from a commercial perspective, free software is good only for the short
term, as the continued success of said software is not dependant on its
popularity (and sales) but on its developers personnal, finicial and time
constraints.
> Playing with a freeware make me feel to be part of a community of
> people, sharing the same hobby. Using a software make me feel to be a
> consumer: less positive.
you are a consumer regardless of the software's price.
--
Rick
Kitty5 WebDesign - http://Kitty5.com
POV-Ray News & Resources - http://Povray.co.uk
TEL : +44 (01270) 501101 - FAX : +44 (01270) 251105 - ICQ : 15776037
PGP Public Key
http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x231E1CEA
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> Followups to povray.off-topic
Last Mail about this topic...
> KOffice has 4 (four) developers, it will take them donkeys years to match
> office 97, and what do you think MS will be doing with its small army of
> developers in the mean time.
Hmmm... maybe you are right.
> The fact that there are K & Gnome (etc etc) attempts at the office suit
doom
> all to failure, everybody is busy competing instead of collaborating.
This doesn't have to be a bad thing. It can also improve quality. I think
without Gnome, KDE wouldn't be at this stage. But you are right in saiing
that there are not enough programmers.
> Companies do more on their desktops than work in MS office, a powerful
> office suit is only one step to the goal of (whatever alternative OS your
on
goal of what?
> about) on the desktop. and chances are it will be to many, featuring to
> little, delivered far to late.
Many small companies use Office especially Word only for really simple
textwork. This could be done easy with Word 6.0, so I don't think this stage
isn't achievable. But MS Office 97 formats should be supported, so that the
companies can test this alternative parallel to MS Office.
But let's leave it at that. It would be really great if there would be such
an alternative, but maybe I'm just dreaming ;). (I should join some open
source project)
Best regards,
Florian
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