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Hi developers,
since you got pretty used to define exprity dates and beta (demos?), I
wonder how much PoVRay will cost in future? The only sense I can imagine for
defining expiry dates in betas is to avoid to leave any running version out
there when you start to let user pay for PoV.
Did you already think about the price?
regards
SY
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"Jürgen Scharfy" <sch### [at] surfeu at> wrote in message
news:3c96451e$1@news.povray.org...
<snip>
You meant to add a smiley, right? Just checking...
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> <snip>
>
> You meant to add a smiley, right? Just checking...
No. Just wondering....
It would be easy in the current state to release sources of 3.1g but not of
>=3.5, let the expiration date in and make a product of it one has to buy.
Of course something has to be done to get rid of the MegaPov sources.....
It just came into my mind while asking myself whatfor the expiration date
was made. But maybe I'm simply too negative?
regards
SY
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> Hi developers,
>
> since you got pretty used to define exprity dates and beta (demos?), I
> wonder how much PoVRay will cost in future? The only sense I can imagine
for
> defining expiry dates in betas is to avoid to leave any running version
out
> there when you start to let user pay for PoV.
>
> Did you already think about the price?
> regards
> SY
As usual, POV will cost hours of frustration and triumph (not to mention
hairs which will pull out of your own head, if you still got 'em), hundreds
of dollars spent upgrading your CPU for faster renders and buying larger
monitors, and, if you frequent these newsgroups, the occasional 2¢.
-tgq
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> It just came into my mind while asking myself whatfor the expiration date
> was made. But maybe I'm simply too negative?
The expiration date is only there for beta testing, so old versions of the
3.5 beta aren't kicking around after issues have been resolved and the new
beta issued.
-tgq
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"Jürgen Scharfy" <sch### [at] surfeuat> wrote :
>
> But maybe I'm simply too negative?
Yes, I think you are being too cynical. Expiry of Betas is a time
honored method among real beta testing efforts (not the fake "BETA!!!" hype
of some software marketers). It is used to make sure all people are
performing tests and sending in reports on the same version of the software.
If you are downloading 3.5 with the intention of using it - instead of
testing it for the benefit of the team - you are probably going to be
frustrated. This is a real beta test, not a pre-release.
If I recall correctly, there are firm copyright restrictions on the
Pov-ray development team ever using Pov-ray as a base for developing a
commercial version. Besides that, the current team has individually shown a
firm commitment to the free distribution of Pov-ray.
So points for creativity, but you might need to go back to your
conspiracy blackboard and start over.
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In article <3c9648ab$1@news.povray.org> , "Jürgen Scharfy"
<sch### [at] surfeuat> wrote:
>> You meant to add a smiley, right? Just checking...
>
> No. Just wondering....
> It would be easy in the current state to release sources of 3.1g but not of
>>=3.5, let the expiration date in and make a product of it one has to buy.
> Of course something has to be done to get rid of the MegaPov sources.....
>
> It just came into my mind while asking myself whatfor the expiration date
> was made. But maybe I'm simply too negative?
Maybe you just want to cause a flame war? You are asking probably the most
stupid question ever asked!
Here you have your flame:
Turn on your brain and think why people who spend their time to develop
something for free don't want to answer bug reports for beta versions that
have long been history and some user to stupid to realize it is an old beta,
or want some moron to distribute versions based on beta code. But of course,
thinking about this would require some common sense and maybe even
intelligence :-(
Thorsten
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"TinCanMan" wrote:
> As usual, POV will cost hours of frustration and triumph
> (not to mention hairs which will pull out of your own
> head, if you still got 'em), hundreds of dollars spent
> upgrading your CPU for faster renders and buying larger
> monitors, and, if you frequent these newsgroups, the
> occasional 2¢.
Oh, if you want to get the serious version of POV-Ray, the actual price is
much higher.
For using POV-Ray, I have paid almost my entire real life.
Rune
--
3D images and anims, include files, tutorials and more:
Rune's World: http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk (updated Feb 16)
POV-Ray Users: http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk/povrayusers/
POV-Ray Ring: http://webring.povray.co.uk
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Tom Melly wrote:
>
> You meant to add a smiley, right? Just checking...
Maybe there should be a primitive called "cliche" that does the mirrored
sphere and checkered plane automatically, just to get it out of the way:
cliche {<0,0,0>, texture {default}}
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Thorsten Froehlich wrote:
>
> Maybe you just want to cause a flame war? You are asking probably the most
> stupid question ever asked!
Thorsten, we've missed you! Things were getting dull around here. Welcome back.
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On Mon, 18 Mar 2002 21:56:17 +0100, "Rune"
<run### [at] mobilixnetdk> wrote:
>For using POV-Ray, I have paid almost my entire real life.
Real life ??? You mean there's something besides POV-Ray and other
computer based stuff ??
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> If you are downloading 3.5 with the intention of using it - instead of
> testing it for the benefit of the team - you are probably going to be
> frustrated. This is a real beta test, not a pre-release.
Sure. But what is the difference between testing and using? I can't imagine
any test without using the thing *lol*
> So points for creativity, but you might need to go back to your
> conspiracy blackboard and start over.
What should I start over?
There was no special target for the question. I just wondered. If one wants
to give valueable feedback to the developers showing up a bug, one should
send in a scene file demonstrating it. Doing so, the version at client side
doesn't matter since the bug first must be reproduceable at developers side.
At least this was the way I did when sending in bug reports to developers
and what I forced to do my customers when receiving reports.
Worked fine.
regards
SY
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> The expiration date is only there for beta testing, so old versions of the
> 3.5 beta aren't kicking around after issues have been resolved and the new
> beta issued.
sure. please see also my RE to Bill
regards
SY
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> Maybe you just want to cause a flame war? You are asking probably the
most
No.
> stupid question ever asked!
Really? I am green with envy due to your ability of an objective measurement
of stupidness of a question....
> Here you have your flame:
No, thanks.
> thinking about this would require some common sense and maybe even
> intelligence :-(
Might be. We should investigate this!
regards
SY
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> As usual, POV will cost hours of frustration and triumph (not to mention
> hairs which will pull out of your own head, if you still got 'em),
hundreds
> of dollars spent upgrading your CPU for faster renders and buying larger
> monitors, and, if you frequent these newsgroups, the occasional 2¢.
*lol*
Indeed. Is it not similar to this with any software?
regards
SY
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> For using POV-Ray, I have paid almost my entire real life.
>
> Rune
I hope not only for using PoV?
Hopefully you have also seen some -real- nature outdoors? .-)
But on the other hand... what is real? *g*
regards
SY
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"Jürgen Scharfy" <sch### [at] surfeuat> wrote in message
news:3c965f27$1@news.povray.org...
> > If you are downloading 3.5 with the intention of using it - instead
of
> > testing it for the benefit of the team - you are probably going to be
> > frustrated. This is a real beta test, not a pre-release.
>
> Sure. But what is the difference between testing and using?
It has been fully explained, go back over the replies and try to figure
it out. If that is not enough, go to the beta news-group and watch what the
testers are doing.
If you are unhappy with the expiration, I am sure someone can instruct
you on how to uninstall the software.
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> > Sure. But what is the difference between testing and using?
>
> It has been fully explained, go back over the replies and try to
figure
That was meant philosophically. Doesn't matter.
> If you are unhappy with the expiration, I am sure someone can instruct
> you on how to uninstall the software.
Hm. The expiration doesn't bother me at all. The thing I am currently
working on runs even on 3.1g but for speed macro I use MegaPoV 0.7
But thank you, anyway.
But why do you think that I am unhappy with the expiration?
regards
SY
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In article <3C9655DB.6AC8B0D3@aol.com> , Dave Dunn <poi### [at] aolcom>
wrote:
>> Maybe you just want to cause a flame war? You are asking probably the most
>> stupid question ever asked!
>
> Thorsten, we've missed you! Things were getting dull around here. Welcome
> back.
I am probably missing the point here - I wasn't away!?!
Thorsten
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"Jürgen Scharfy" <sch### [at] surfeuat> wrote in message
news:3c96626e@news.povray.org...
> But why do you think that I am unhappy with the expiration?
>
...because otherwise it would mean that you were happy to see another
idealistic and co-operative effort sacrificed on the alter of commercialism?
You're either very peculiar or being deliberately provocative. Who needs
usenet?
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> since you got pretty used to define exprity dates and beta (demos?), I
> wonder how much PoVRay will cost in future? The only sense I can imagine
for
> defining expiry dates in betas is to avoid to leave any running version
out
> there when you start to let user pay for PoV.
>
> Did you already think about the price?
As an authorised dealer, I can inform you the final price will $1000US (give
or take 1c).
Why not place a booking for an in house demonstration.
--
Rick
POV-Ray Sales - http://grabbit-and-runn.povray.co.uk
TEL : +44 (01270) 501101 - FAX : +44 (01270) 251105 - ICQ : 15776037
PGP Public Key
http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x231E1CEA
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Rick [Kitty5] <ric### [at] kitty5com> wrote:
> As an authorised dealer, I can inform you the final price will $1000US
I suppose that you mean per month?
And of course bugfix patches will cost separately. (If Sun Microsystems
does it, why not the pov-team? ;) )
--
#macro M(A,N,D,L)plane{-z,-9pigment{mandel L*9translate N color_map{[0rgb x]
[1rgb 9]}scale<D,D*3D>*1e3}rotate y*A*8}#end M(-3<1.206434.28623>70,7)M(
-1<.7438.1795>1,20)M(1<.77595.13699>30,20)M(3<.75923.07145>80,99)// - Warp -
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On Mon, 18 Mar 2002 15:56:17 -0500, Rune wrote:
> For using POV-Ray, I have paid almost my entire real life.
I've spent quite a bit on hardware and books, not to mention time.
-Mark Gordon
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Rune wrote:
> For using POV-Ray, I have paid almost my entire real life.
There is no real life. There is only POV-Ray.
--
Ken Tyler
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"Ken" <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote in message
news:3C969C13.55A99EAD@pacbell.net...
>
> There is no real life. There is only POV-Ray.
Oh, no? I'm managing to have some RL... albeit not anywhere as good a thing
as POV-Ray life is.
bob h
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> As an authorised dealer, I can inform you the final price will $1000US
(give
> or take 1c).
what a pitty. I think, taking the time into count (with a usual per-hour
rate) this wouldn't be enough?
> Why not place a booking for an in house demonstration.
sure. I should be at home somewhen in two months.
but maybe we could meet in switzerland, or a bit later, in hungary? hm..
maybe in the Netherlands soon. I never know *lol*
regards
SY
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> > But why do you think that I am unhappy with the expiration?
> >
>
> ...because otherwise it would mean that you were happy to see another
> idealistic and co-operative effort sacrificed on the alter of
commercialism?
?? I never mentioned that I have a problem with the expiration date. That
was you who assumed that.
> You're either very peculiar or being deliberately provocative. Who needs
> usenet?
This is what you think. You mean everyone has to think in the same way you
do? :)
But there is a funny coincidence: the tool I'm currently developing for the
company I work for has an expiration date *lol*. But only to prevent that
anyone can use the free demo forever.
We have to cover our costs and can not give everything for free....
I was (and I am still) convinced that someone has done some calculations to
see what amount of money is necessary to keep PoV up as it is. Why not?
regards
SY
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"Jürgen Scharfy" <sch### [at] surfeuat> wrote in message
news:3c96efe2@news.povray.org...
> ?? I never mentioned that I have a problem with the expiration date. That
> was you who assumed that.
>
> > You're either very peculiar or being deliberately provocative. Who needs
> > usenet?
>
> This is what you think. You mean everyone has to think in the same way you
> do? :)
Here's the proof - deliberately provocative.
Just to point something out, I've never paid a dime for POV-Ray, and I've
been using it for years. Legally. The Team has been saying the same thing
the whole time - that they can't and won't charge money for POV - and, given
their past performance (over several years) I expect them to keep their
word.
...Chambers
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.323 / Virus Database: 180 - Release Date: 2/9/2002
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On Mon, 18 Mar 2002 20:49:09 +0100, "J�rgen Scharfy" <sch### [at] surfeuat>
wrote:
> The only sense I can imagine for
> defining expiry dates in betas is to avoid to leave any running version out
> there when you start to let user pay for PoV.
Wrong conclusion.
> Did you already think about the price?
Yes, it would be the worst disaster of XXI century.
ABX
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Warp wrote:
>
> Rick [Kitty5] <ric### [at] kitty5com> wrote:
> > As an authorised dealer, I can inform you the final price will $1000US
>
> I suppose that you mean per month?
It's by month,by seat,by potential user and by 8 MHz/cpu.
If you have a 400 Mhz cpu, it's fifty times the basic price which is only for a 8 MHz.
(the happy customers with P4 at 2 GHz are very welcome!!!)
If you have two computer, it's double price, even if you installed it only on one.
A multi-cpu system is considered as distinct systems.
If you have more than one user profile per system, it's time the number of profiles,
even if they are not interested.
Last thing: Month are defined as 4 consecutive weeks, there is about 13 month a year.
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> > Did you already think about the price?
>
> Yes, it would be the worst disaster of XXI century.
Hm. If I had a choice I would prefer to turn PoV to shareware instead of let
it die due to the costs. If it is not necessary: GREAT.
Don't you think?
regards
SY
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> Here's the proof - deliberately provocative.
Hm. Not really. I don't understand why you are so agressive? There is no
reason....
> Just to point something out, I've never paid a dime for POV-Ray, and I've
> been using it for years. Legally. The Team has been saying the same
thing
Did I tell you something different? I used PoV for years as well. But I was
not talking about that.
> the whole time - that they can't and won't charge money for POV - and,
given
> their past performance (over several years) I expect them to keep their
> word.
Me too. But there are costs to cover, right? If the current activities like
Keyring, IRTC, books... are enough to keep PoV up and running: GREAT. If
not, I'd prefer to turn PoV into shareware instead of let it die.
I was not aware of the fact that it insults you to ask for future pricing
policies !?
Sorry about that.
regards
SY
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> If you have a 400 Mhz cpu, it's fifty times the basic price which is only
for a 8 MHz.
> (the happy customers with P4 at 2 GHz are very welcome!!!)
> If you have two computer, it's double price, even if you installed it only
on one.
> A multi-cpu system is considered as distinct systems.
> If you have more than one user profile per system, it's time the number of
profiles,
> even if they are not interested.
> Last thing: Month are defined as 4 consecutive weeks, there is about 13
month a year.
*lol*
sounds like Microsoft....
But it is not the thing I was talking about.
regards
SY
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"Jürgen Scharfy" <sch### [at] surfeuat> wrote :
>
> I was (and I am still) convinced that someone has done some calculations
to
> see what amount of money is necessary to keep PoV up as it is. Why not?
Pov-Ray development cost nearly nothing. The server for the newsgroup
and home page do, but they are not Pov-ray. Pov-Ray development has long
been a labor of love, mostly done by volunteers who want to do it and might
even pay for the privilege (has anyone thought about tapping that source?).
Your assumptions are wrong and your presumptions are insulting. It may be a
language difficulty, but your continued posts make me think it is just that
you are trolling.
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On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:38:23 +0100, "J�rgen Scharfy" <sch### [at] surfeuat>
wrote:
> > > Did you already think about the price?
> > Yes, it would be the worst disaster of XXI century.
> Hm. If I had a choice I would prefer to turn PoV to shareware instead of let
> it die due to the costs.
Fortunatelly it's not your decision :-)
I think that when death by costs could happen there would be enough power in
pov-community for reanimation. I don't know your financial position but I have
enough expenses around my family so only way I can show gratitude is work.
ABX
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Jürgen, I think it is very clear why people feel insulted. If you can't
see it, further discussion is stupid, but anyhow perhaps you can re-read
the key sentence:
> The only sense I can imagine for defining expiry dates in betas is to avoid to leave
any running version out
> there when you start to let user pay for PoV.
Can't you see how insulting it is to the historical behavoir of the
POV-Ray Team? I can't believe so... I only see two alternatives for you
making this sentence:
a) you have not read any of the incontable posts here explaining the
real reason for expiry dates, and your imagination is really limited
when dealing with altruism, or
b) you know the real reason for expiry dates, but you are being
cinical for any mysterious reasons. Perhaps it's the definitve
YKYHBRTL... when you start wondering about the future price of free
raytracers.
--
Jaime Vives Piqueres
http://www.ignorancia.org/
La Persistencia de la Ignorancia
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> Fortunatelly it's not your decision :-)
Of course :-)
And I am happy if PoV stays free. But, as mentioned, I'd buy it.
> I think that when death by costs could happen there would be enough power
in
> pov-community for reanimation. I don't know your financial position but I
have
> enough expenses around my family so only way I can show gratitude is work.
I can imagine!
And you do a lot of good work, as I can see in the newsgroups.
I wish I had some more time for PoV (or personal interests in general).
regards
SY
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> Can't you see how insulting it is to the historical behavoir of the
Maybe it is really a language problem or whatever.
Anyway, now beeing sure about the answer I could answer myself:
PoV was,is and stays free. The expiry will be used for betas only to prevent
bug reports on old versions.
That simple... :-)
BTW: any decicions about the book? It would be very interesting I think!
regards
SY
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On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 12:33:01 +0100, "J�rgen Scharfy" <sch### [at] surfeuat>
wrote:
> BTW: any decicions about the book?
Which one of three book projects are you asking about ?
ABX
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This one:
-----------------------
If we do so, we will start with a beginners-to-intermediate
book that covers v3.5, printed in full color and bound
in such a way that it will be able to be laid flat on a desk
without damage to the binding. Bundled with the book would be a
POV-Ray and utilities CDROM, containing the current version of POV-Ray and a
number of useful utilities (plus source for any
scenes in the book).
-----------------------
regards
SY
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On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 13:29:09 +0100, "J�rgen Scharfy" <sch### [at] surfeuat>
wrote:
> This one:
It's project maintained by the team http://www.povray.org/survey1.html
Another one is available at http://www.povworld.org/book/
There is also project maintained by Mitch waite at http://www.mitchwaite.com/
ABX
--
disc{z,-z 5#macro O()asc(substr("-+((1*(,1,/.-,*/(,&.323/'1"e,1))*.1-4#declare
e=e-1;#end#local e=26;pigment{#local g=function(_){ceil(_)-_}function#local//X
k=function{pattern{object{sphere_sweep{linear_spline 13#while(e>0)<O(),O()//AB
>.01#end}}}}{k(g(atan2(x,y)),g(ln((y+x)^2+1e-5)),0)}}finish{ambient 1}}//POV35
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bob h wrote:
>
> "Ken" <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote in message
> news:3C969C13.55A99EAD@pacbell.net...
> >
> > There is no real life. There is only POV-Ray.
>
> Oh, no? I'm managing to have some RL... albeit not anywhere as good a thing
> as POV-Ray life is.
Get well soon!
--
Ken Tyler
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> It's project maintained by the team http://www.povray.org/survey1.html
Yep, this is the page I had the text from.
> Another one is available at http://www.povworld.org/book/
Ah!
I didn't know this url. I did a search on "book" in the povray sites but
didn't fall over this.
Thanks!
> There is also project maintained by Mitch waite at
http://www.mitchwaite.com/
Didn't know this either.
Thanks a lot.
regards
SY
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You are just being too negative. And such speculations can confuse others.
The Povray team never made any announcement to such effect, and it is not
the first time that povray betas have expiration dates.
Maan
"Jürgen Scharfy" <sch### [at] surfeuat> wrote in message
news:3c9648ab$1@news.povray.org...
> > <snip>
> >
> > You meant to add a smiley, right? Just checking...
>
> No. Just wondering....
> It would be easy in the current state to release sources of 3.1g but not
of
> >=3.5, let the expiration date in and make a product of it one has to buy.
> Of course something has to be done to get rid of the MegaPov sources.....
>
> It just came into my mind while asking myself whatfor the expiration date
> was made. But maybe I'm simply too negative?
> regards
> SY
>
>
>
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> You are just being too negative. And such speculations can confuse
others.
> The Povray team never made any announcement to such effect, and it is not
> the first time that povray betas have expiration dates.
> Maan
Thank you very much for you clear answer.
I always expect the worst and somtimes I get badly surpised .-)
regards
SY
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On Mon, 18 Mar 2002 16:00:05 -0500, Dave Dunn wrote:
> Maybe there should be a primitive called "cliche" that does the mirrored
> sphere and checkered plane automatically, just to get it out of the way:
>
> cliche {<0,0,0>, texture {default}}
Try rendering my signature file:-)
--
#local i=.1;#local I=(i/i)/i;#local l=(i+i)/i;#local ll=(I/i)/l;box{<-ll,
-((I/I)+l),-ll><ll,-l,ll>pigment{checker scale l}finish{ambient((I/l)/I)+
(l/I)}}sphere{<i-i,l-l,(I/l)>l/l pigment{rgb((I/l)/I)}finish{reflection((
I/l)/I)-(l/I)specular(I/l)/I}}light_source{<I-l,I+I,(I-l)/l>l/l} // Steve
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I think POV would be more likely to die if it changed to shareware.
Then there wouldn't be volunteer effort and the cash flow would
be insufficient to keep it going. As a case in point, there was an
early competitor, PolyRay it think was the name, which was shareware.
Do you see any evidence of PolyRay today? I rest my case.
The time expiration was used in beta testing POV 3.1 too, but that
didn't mean it became shareware. The time limitation is just to avoid
having to deal with supporting old and buggy versions of the program.
Long live POV-Ray!
Harold
"Jürgen Scharfy" <sch### [at] surfeuat> wrote in message
news:3c96fa22$1@news.povray.org...
> Me too. But there are costs to cover, right? If the current activities
like
> Keyring, IRTC, books... are enough to keep PoV up and running: GREAT. If
> not, I'd prefer to turn PoV into shareware instead of let it die.
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> I think POV would be more likely to die if it changed to shareware.
Might happen, indeed. Especially I thought about it as a last chance but if
the software doesn't improve anymore due to some reason it most likely wont
do this just because of some (minimal) cash flow.
> Long live POV-Ray!
Agree!
regards
SY
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LOL!
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"Jürgen Scharfy" <sch### [at] surfeuat> a écrit dans le message de news:
3c96efe2@news.povray.org...
> I was (and I am still) convinced that someone has done some calculations
to
> see what amount of money is necessary to keep PoV up as it is. Why not?
From povray's web site :
"Bringing POV-Ray and the IRTC to the public isn't cheap. In fact the annual
costs are enough to buy a brand-new car (and would be much more if it
weren't for the generosity of our hosts). This server is a co-located
machine (owned by a POV-Team member) connected to multiple OC-3's. It moves
an average of 15 gigabytes per day, split almost equally between POV-Ray and
the IRTC. Any difference between income from sales and the cost of the
co-location comes out of the personal finances of a POV-Ray developer. Since
we give POV-Ray away for free sales of these products are the only means we
have of meeting our running costs."
G.
--
**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters
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