Is there an easy way of taking a topographic map as yoinked from
Terraserver and making a heightfield of it such that each elevation
line and the space to the next line is a single greyscale?
The only way I have of accomplishing this at the moment is going
into PSP and manually putting in a vector point-to-point line over
each elevation line in a new layer...excessively time consuming.
I suppose I could try using a regular 1x1 paintbrush and my Wacom
tablet and drawing the lines in a new layer, but...if there's an
even easier way, I'd like to know about it!

-- 
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.scifi-fantasy.com

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Post a reply to this message

"Timothy R. Cook" wrote:
> 
> Is there an easy way of taking a topographic map as yoinked from
> Terraserver and making a heightfield of it such that each elevation
> line and the space to the next line is a single greyscale?

Are you aware this would lead to a terraced terrain which would be far
from realistic?

If you are having a file of vector lines a possible solution would be to
close all lines which are not yet closed, fill them with the appropriate
color and layer the resulting polygons in the correct height order.

Christoph

-- 
POV-Ray tutorials, IsoWood include,                 
TransSkin and more: http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0013390/  
Last updated 21 Feb. 2002 _____./\/^>_*_<^\/\.______

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 01 Mar 2002 08:36:01 -0500, "Timothy R. Cook"
<tim### [at] scifi-fantasycom> wrote:
> if there's an
> even easier way, I'd like to know about it!

I don't know how accurate is input and how accurate should be output but try
this:

1. Open image with lines in image manipulation software.
2. Assign each height to separate intensity of gray with rule: lowest height
is black, largest height is white.
3. Take filler/bucklet tool and fill each region (and line) of height range
with apropriate gray intensity (I hope lines are closed)
4. Look for largest distance beetween height-lines and perform blur/smooth
operation with this size/2 as radius.
5. Save image and use it as heigh field.

in step 3 if lines are not closed then add extra pixels to close it.

in step 4 you can experiment with lower radius of blur, handy blur with pencil
and/or separate blur for pairs of heights

ABX

Post a reply to this message

Christoph Hormann wrote:
> Are you aware this would lead to a terraced terrain which would be far
> from realistic?

Seeing's I've no other way of transferring topo data into POV/Moray,
I'll take what I can get.  Plus I do a blur after putting in all the
lines/filling them thereby getting a smoother image...but even then
I get a terraced look.  Even if I could output more than 256 shades
of grey, it'd still be terraced, just at a finer level.

-- 
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.scifi-fantasy.com

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"W³odzimierz ABX Skiba" wrote:
> I don't know how accurate is input and how accurate should be output but try
> this:
> 
> 1. Open image with lines in image manipulation software.
> 2. Assign each height to separate intensity of gray with rule: lowest height
> is black, largest height is white.
> 3. Take filler/bucklet tool and fill each region (and line) of height range
> with apropriate gray intensity (I hope lines are closed)

Problem with this is the Terraserver/USGS topographic maps aren't just
the
elevation lines.  They also have a red grid, roads, green areas for
trees,
black boxes for buildings, labels for things, et cetera.

-- 
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.scifi-fantasy.com

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Post a reply to this message

"Timothy R. Cook" wrote:
> 
> > Are you aware this would lead to a terraced terrain which would be far
> > from realistic?
> 
> Seeing's I've no other way of transferring topo data into POV/Moray,
> I'll take what I can get.  Plus I do a blur after putting in all the
> lines/filling them thereby getting a smoother image...but even then
> I get a terraced look.  Even if I could output more than 256 shades
> of grey, it'd still be terraced, just at a finer level.
> 

I doubt you would have any luck with that method.

There are programs performing height line -> DEM conversion, for example
GRASS:

http://www.geog.uni-hannover.de/grass/index2.html

but they usually produce unnaturally smooth results.  Methods taking into
account the sharp edges typical for terrain are quite complicated and
usually rely on further information like river lines etc.

Christoph

-- 
POV-Ray tutorials, IsoWood include,                 
TransSkin and more: http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0013390/  
Last updated 21 Feb. 2002 _____./\/^>_*_<^\/\.______

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 01 Mar 2002 09:15:21 -0500, "Timothy R. Cook"
<tim### [at] scifi-fantasycom> wrote:
> Problem with this is the Terraserver/USGS topographic maps aren't just
> the
> elevation lines.  They also have a red grid, roads, green areas for
> trees,
> black boxes for buildings, labels for things, et cetera.

What the problem to fill all pixels with color different to elevation lines
with background color first. It should be easy possible with any image
manipulation software. IIRC it was possible even with paint in windows.

ABX

Post a reply to this message

Christoph Hormann wrote:
> but they usually produce unnaturally smooth results.

Considering I'm using the heightfield for an underwater scene,
and the fact that at the scale I'm working with, the vertical
difference of grass is negligible...smoothing is NOT a problem.
-- 
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.scifi-fantasy.com

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On Fri, 01 Mar 2002 09:15:21 -0500, Timothy R. Cook wrote:
> Problem with this is the Terraserver/USGS topographic maps aren't just
> the
> elevation lines.  They also have a red grid, roads, green areas for
> trees,
> black boxes for buildings, labels for things, et cetera.

Have you considered just getting a DEM for that area instead?  The DRG maps
aren't really made for trying to get data out of.

If you're really set on using the topo lines, you can get them in vector 
format from the USGS website without all of the extraneous data.

-- 
plane{-z,-3normal{crackle scale.2#local a=5;#while(a)warp{repeat x flip x}rotate
z*60#local a=a-1;#end translate-9*x}pigment{rgb 1}}light_source{-9red 1rotate 60
*z}light_source{-9rgb y rotate-z*60}light_source{9-z*18rgb z}text{ttf"arial.ttf"
"RP".01,0translate-<.6,.4,.02>pigment{bozo}}light_source{-z*3rgb-.2}//Ron Parker

Post a reply to this message

"Timothy R. Cook" <tim### [at] scifi-fantasycom> wrote in message
news:3C7F8CA0.9700B111@scifi-fantasy.com...
> Christoph Hormann wrote:
> > Are you aware this would lead to a terraced terrain which would be far
> > from realistic?
>
> Seeing's I've no other way of transferring topo data into POV/Moray,
> I'll take what I can get.  Plus I do a blur after putting in all the
> lines/filling them thereby getting a smoother image...but even then
> I get a terraced look.  Even if I could output more than 256 shades
> of grey, it'd still be terraced, just at a finer level.
>
> --

Leveller has a "deterrace" function....

Post a reply to this message

Ron Parker wrote:
> If you're really set on using the topo lines, you can get them in vector
> format from the USGS website without all of the extraneous data.

Oooh.  Must look into.

...what's wrong with topo data?  It's realistic, and definitely good
enough for general terrain appearance.
-- 
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.scifi-fantasy.com

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"Timothy R. Cook" <tim### [at] scifi-fantasycom> wrote in message
news:3C7F9969.D4DF4B4F@scifi-fantasy.com...
>
> ...what's wrong with topo data?  It's realistic, and definitely good
> enough for general terrain appearance.

I would suggest you take a look at the thread in povray.general "Topographic map
to height field?" started by Timothy R. Cook  for a general discussion of the
problems... ;)

Post a reply to this message

Tom Melly wrote:
> I would suggest you take a look at the thread in povray.general
> "Topographic map to height field?" started by Timothy R. Cook
> for a general discussion of the problems... ;)

Ah, but I've not seen any alternatives offered that produce
any data, let alone data anywhere near as realistic!

-- 
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.scifi-fantasy.com

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On Fri, 01 Mar 2002 10:08:25 -0500, Timothy R. Cook wrote:
> Ron Parker wrote:
>> If you're really set on using the topo lines, you can get them in vector
>> format from the USGS website without all of the extraneous data.
> 
> Oooh.  Must look into.
> 
> ...what's wrong with topo data?  It's realistic, and definitely good
> enough for general terrain appearance.

Nothing, really, except that DEM data is already rasterized and has a 
better vertical resolution.  These days, topo data is often derived from
DEM data.

-- 
#macro R(L P)sphere{L F}cylinder{L P F}#end#macro P(V)merge{R(z+a z)R(-z a-z)R(a
-z-z-z a+z)torus{1F clipped_by{plane{a 0}}}translate V}#end#macro Z(a F T)merge{
P(z+a)P(z-a)R(-z-z-x a)pigment{rgbf 1}hollow interior{media{emission 3-T}}}#end 
Z(-x-x.2x)camera{location z*-10rotate x*90normal{bumps.02scale.05}}

Post a reply to this message

When my final cloth program is ready, you could try it for generating smooth
surfaces.
This should work: define a cloth using the terraced rectangular surface and
let it contract itself with the edges 'locked' to something or with immobile
edges. With gravity = <0, 0, 0> it should should become smooth.

The result won't be a heightfield, but a mesh2 object.

Apache
http://geitenkaas.dns2go.com/experiments/

Post a reply to this message

Apache wrote:
> When my final cloth program is ready, you could try it for
> generating smooth surfaces.
> The result won't be a heightfield, but a mesh2 object.

Sounds good...make a Moray plugin, though, or I won't use it...
(not that I have anything against editing code by hand, it's
just that once I've added something Moray doesn't support, I
can't ever go back to editing it with Moray lest I lose the
piece I added by hand...and have to re-insert it every darn
time after changing it with Moray)

-- 
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.scifi-fantasy.com

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Ron Parker wrote:
> Nothing, really, except that DEM data is already rasterized and has a
> better vertical resolution.  These days, topo data is often derived from
> DEM data.

I just downloaded file at http://edcdaac.usgs.gov/gtopo30/w100n40.html
How do I convert to dxf or raw or something else I can easily get into
Moray?  I did a quick search on the net but didn't find anything useful
(well, I found a realvideo to AVI converter, might be useful it it
works...)

-- 
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.scifi-fantasy.com

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Post a reply to this message

"Timothy R. Cook" <tim### [at] scifi-fantasycom> wrote in message
news:3C80BF7E.2B1674B3@scifi-fantasy.com...
> Ron Parker wrote:
> > Nothing, really, except that DEM data is already rasterized and has a
> > better vertical resolution.  These days, topo data is often derived from
> > DEM data.
>
> I just downloaded file at http://edcdaac.usgs.gov/gtopo30/w100n40.html
> How do I convert to dxf or raw or something else I can easily get into
> Moray?  I did a quick search on the net but didn't find anything useful
> (well, I found a realvideo to AVI converter, might be useful it it
> works...)

If it's the newer format for DEM then this might be of some use:
http://geopotential.com/codes/SDTS/sdts2dem.html
Other than that, maybe all you need is something like Wilbur:
http://www.ridgecrest.ca.us/~jslayton/software.html

bob h

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On Sat, 02 Mar 2002 07:03:10 -0500, Timothy R. Cook wrote:
> Ron Parker wrote:
>> Nothing, really, except that DEM data is already rasterized and has a
>> better vertical resolution.  These days, topo data is often derived from
>> DEM data.
> 
> I just downloaded file at http://edcdaac.usgs.gov/gtopo30/w100n40.html
> How do I convert to dxf or raw or something else I can easily get into

If you really want something that's near 40N 100W you can get better-quality
data than gtopo from USGS; unfortunately the appropriate server seems to be
down at the moment, so I can't get you a URL.  But what you want is a 7.5-
minute DEM (Digital Elevation Model).  There are utilities to convert that
to a TGA, which you can then use as a heightfield.

-- 
#macro R(P)z+_(P)_(P)_(P+1)_(P+1)+z#end#macro Q(C,T)bicubic_patch{type 1u_steps
6v_steps 6R(1)R(3)R(5)R(7)pigment{rgb z}}#end#macro _(Y)#local X=asc(substr(C,Y
,1))-65;<T+mod(X,4)div(X,4)9>-2#end#macro O(T)Q("ABEFUQWS",T)Q("WSXTLOJN",T)#
end O(0)O(3)Q("JNKLCGCD",0)light_source{x 1}// ron### [at] povrayorg

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Hi Timothy R. Cook, you recently wrote in povray.general:

> .. it's
> just that once I've added something Moray doesn't support, I
> can't ever go back to editing it with Moray lest I lose the
> piece I added by hand...and have to re-insert it every darn
> time after changing it with Moray)
You are aware of the possibility of placing code in the INC file that
will not get overwritten, right? Or in the Comments field of the
Scene|Settings.

- Lutz
  email : lut### [at] stmuccom
  Web   : http://www.stmuc.com/moray

Post a reply to this message

Lutz Kretzschmar wrote:
> You are aware of the possibility of placing code in the INC file that
> will not get overwritten, right? Or in the Comments field of the
> Scene|Settings.

Apparently not!  You can do that?

-- 
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.scifi-fantasy.com

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Ron Parker wrote:
> There are utilities to convert that to a TGA, which you can then
> use as a heightfield.

Can I have a link to one of these utilities?

-- 
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.scifi-fantasy.com

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"Timothy R. Cook" <tim### [at] scifi-fantasycom> wrote in message
news:3C836833.672D35A4@scifi-fantasy.com...
> Ron Parker wrote:
> > There are utilities to convert that to a TGA, which you can then
> > use as a heightfield.
>
> Can I have a link to one of these utilities?

If you go to www.povray.org and then the POV Links you can search for DEM
(search is at bottom of page).  A converter is there, along with several
other related things.

bob h

Post a reply to this message

bob h wrote:
> If you go to www.povray.org and then the POV Links you can search for DEM
> (search is at bottom of page).  A converter is there, along with several
> other related things.

Does anybody have a program that can actually convert the DEM
that *I* have to TGA?

-- 
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.scifi-fantasy.com

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Post a reply to this message

> Does anybody have a program that can actually convert the DEM
> that *I* have to TGA?

You mean the topographic/biosphere/environmental stuff?
I once started to write a prog for it but then I saw at the first tests with
the (heightfield only) files that 1km resolution is useless unless you
render a whole planet as seen from outer space....

so for now there is only the heightfield proc which doesn't have any user
interface. so better use the tools available from the net.

Post a reply to this message

"Jürgen Scharfy" wrote:
> so for now there is only the heightfield proc which doesn't have any user
> interface. so better use the tools available from the net.

And what tools would those be?  I can't find any.

-- 
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.scifi-fantasy.com

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On Mon, 04 Mar 2002 09:15:29 -0500, "Timothy R. Cook"
<tim### [at] scifi-fantasycom> wrote:
> And what tools would those be?  I can't find any.

What was wrong with those urls posted by bob h ?

ABX

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 04 Mar 2002 08:39:42 -0500, Timothy R. Cook wrote:
> bob h wrote:
>> If you go to www.povray.org and then the POV Links you can search for DEM
>> (search is at bottom of page).  A converter is there, along with several
>> other related things.
> 
> Does anybody have a program that can actually convert the DEM
> that *I* have to TGA?

GRASS probably can.  I have GRASS 5.0 built and installed here, so I guess
I could give it a try.  But the data from gtopo isn't very high resolution,
so you might not like what you get.

Instead, try one of the DEM files you can find at http://data.geocomm.com/dem/
They appear to have 7.5' data for all of the region of southern Nebraska you
seem to be interested in (but why can't you just use a plane... :) )

They come in SDTS format, but you can get a converter to the older DEM format
from http://www.gisdatadepot.com/dem/sdts2dem.html .  You should be able to
use that format with the tools you'll find on the povray.org links page.

-- 
#local R=rgb 99;#local P=R-R;#local F=pigment{gradient x}box{0,1pigment{gradient
y pigment_map{[.5F pigment_map{[.3R][.3F color_map{[.15red 99][.15P]}rotate z*45
translate x]}]#local H=pigment{gradient y color_map{[.5P][.5R]}scale 1/3}[.5F
pigment_map{[.3R][.3H][.7H][.7R]}]}}}camera{location.5-3*z}//only my opinions

Post a reply to this message

"Timothy R. Cook" wrote:
> 
> Does anybody have a program that can actually convert the DEM
> that *I* have to TGA?
> 

As i have explained various times previously there is no 'DEM' file
format, there are various file formats for storing elevation data, many of
them in simple ASCII form, some more complicated.  The site where you get
the data from should also give you information on the used file format.

Christoph

-- 
POV-Ray tutorials, IsoWood include,                 
TransSkin and more: http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0013390/  
Last updated 21 Feb. 2002 _____./\/^>_*_<^\/\.______

Post a reply to this message

Christoph Hormann wrote:
> As i have explained various times previously there is no 'DEM' file
> format

Could've fooled several programs out there that think there is...

-- 
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.scifi-fantasy.com

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Post a reply to this message

Ron Parker wrote:
> Instead, try one of the DEM files you can find at http://data.geocomm.com/dem/
> They appear to have 7.5' data for all of the region of southern Nebraska you
> seem to be interested in (but why can't you just use a plane... :) )

Actually I'm interested in northeast MO...which isn't even what I'm
REALLY
wanting...I really want northeast Australia, including undersea depth
data,
but...don't know where to get that.

-- 
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.scifi-fantasy.com

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"W³odzimierz ABX Skiba" wrote:
> What was wrong with those urls posted by bob h ?

Good question.  What WAS wrong with them?  I couldn't get to
any of them!

-- 
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.scifi-fantasy.com

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On Mon, 04 Mar 2002 15:29:54 +0100, Christoph Hormann <chr### [at] gmxde>
wrote:
> As i have explained various times previously there is no 'DEM' file
> format, there are various file formats for storing elevation data, many of
> them in simple ASCII form, some more complicated.

If it is like you say then .dem in file-formats chapter can confuse:

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/graphics/fileformats-faq/part3/section-37.html

ABX

Post a reply to this message

> And what tools would those be?  I can't find any.

I don't have link right on the hand but I found them all by using google.
most of them need some pre-converter to switch between new and old formats
or require special preformattings.

however, if all fails send me a small data file and a link wherefrom you got
it to my personal address. maybe I can recover the partially completed tool
for you. but I'm afraid that due to my limited spare time you'll find
finished programs earlier on the net.

regards
SY

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On Mon, 04 Mar 2002 09:47:26 -0500, "Timothy R. Cook"
<tim### [at] scifi-fantasycom> wrote:
> Good question.  What WAS wrong with them?  I couldn't get to
> any of them!

You mean that both links from:
http://www.cs.arizona.edu/topovista/sdts2dem/sdts2dem.exe
http://www.ridgecrest.ca.us/~jslayton/w32s115.zip
works now ?

ABX

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"W³odzimierz ABX Skiba" wrote:
> You mean that both links from:
> http://www.cs.arizona.edu/topovista/sdts2dem/sdts2dem.exe
> http://www.ridgecrest.ca.us/~jslayton/w32s115.zip

I don't need an SDTS to DEM file converter, I need a DEM to
TGA file converter.  The links
http://www.monumental.com/rshorne/3dem.html
http://www.alltel.net/~jonl/dem.html
http://www.geocities.com/bob_franke/pov/povutil.htm (works but
  doesn't support the higher-resolution DEM, plus is only 16 bit)
http://www.ridgecrest.ca.us/~jslayton/software.html (works but
  doesn't do anything with my DEM file)

GRASS isn't windows-based
MacDEM isn't windows-based
NuGraf has a demo version which CAN read my file, but the data export
  skips every 5th polygon

-- 
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.scifi-fantasy.com

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PGP-(--) t* 5++>+++++ X+ R* tv+ b++(+++) DI
D++(---) G(++) e*>++ h+ !r--- !y--
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

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On Mon, 04 Mar 2002 10:24:48 -0500, "Timothy R. Cook"
<tim### [at] scifi-fantasycom> wrote:
> I don't need an SDTS to DEM file converter, I need a DEM to
>TGA file converter.
> http://www.ridgecrest.ca.us/~jslayton/software.html (works but
> doesn't do anything with my DEM file)

and have you tried sdts->dem->tga combination ?

ABX

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Timothy R. Cook wrote:
> "W³odzimierz ABX Skiba" wrote:
> 
>>You mean that both links from:
>>http://www.cs.arizona.edu/topovista/sdts2dem/sdts2dem.exe
>>http://www.ridgecrest.ca.us/~jslayton/w32s115.zip
>>
> 
> I don't need an SDTS to DEM file converter, I need a DEM to
> TGA file converter.
I wrote some time ago DEM->TGA converter. Look at thread in 
povray.binaries.images:
news://news.povray.org:119/35371959.29D1B861@student.canberra.edu.au
If this link does not work, then search for thread:
Problem DEM2POV/DEM2TGA from 17.04.1998
There are attached 2 windows exe files in my messages, grab latter, as 
first one has errors in it (it converts incorrectly, second one should 
be OK). If you are lucky, then it might be what you need.

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Vahur Krouverk wrote:
> I wrote some time ago DEM->TGA converter. Look at thread in 
> povray.binaries.images:
D'oh, *povray.binaries.utilities* should it be! Time for sleep!

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Vahur Krouverk wrote:
> I wrote some time ago DEM->TGA converter. Look at thread in
> povray.binaries.images:

Works smashingly!  Thanks!
...now to find a DEM dataset with underwater, I think I remember
seeing one in my searches for a converter...
-- 
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.scifi-fantasy.com

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GFA dpu- s: a?-- C++(++++) U P? L E--- W++(+++)>$
N++ o? K- w(+) O? M-(--) V? PS+(+++) PE(--) Y(--)
PGP-(--) t* 5++>+++++ X+ R* tv+ b++(+++) DI
D++(---) G(++) e*>++ h+ !r--- !y--
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

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Hi Timothy R. Cook, you recently wrote in povray.general:

> Apparently not!  You can do that?
Yes. In the Scene | Settings Dialog in the Comments Tab you can add
code like this:


*/
...
POV CODE
...
/*

And it will be exported at the beginning of your POV file. Suitable
for default definitions and other global stuff.

You can also edit the INC file of your scene and add code to after a
texture that you're not going to change. Before this texture Moray
exports a line containing "$MRY: ...". If you change this to "$MRX:
..", Moray will not export this texture again (even if you change it
in the Texture Editor) and will preserve everything between that line
and the next "$MRY: ..." line in that file between renders.

Regards,

- Lutz

Followups to moray.win

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