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Hi,
have you ever asked a question about povray, a specific question and got the
answer "Read the manual, that should answer your question" or "Try
www.povray.org or www.irtc.org they got plenty of examples..." ?? I mean... I
know that already! I'm actually pretty good at povray and I read a lot of the
manual and looked a some of the examples! This is a useless answer, why do
people answer this kind of thing? I've seen this here in povray's newsgroup
server, but only a few times, while on MesaGL mailing list I see ONLY that kind
of answer!
I used to ask 5 specific questions about OpenGL, here they are:
For my very simple program I need a few things such as:
-Loading JPEG (still looking for an official library...)
-Creating transparent textures
-Knowing the mouse's position at every frame
-Activation of a function when the mouse button is pressed
-Activation of another function when the mouse button is released
I would have expected something like:
> -Loading JPEG (still looking for an official library...)
I can't help you with that... Never done this...
> -Creating transparent textures
This is easy, you should read section 2.3 of the manual it explains this in
detail, and if I can give you an hint try not to have textures over 256x256
since some 3d cards do not support more!
And so on...
Instead I got:
Take a look at www.opengl.org
They have lots os example code to look at.
---------
Am I stupid or what? Did you see One example that does this? I looked and
found nothing, can you point me more directly?? Like
www.opengl.org/examples/source/texture.html or something like that...
I'm sick of this! What about you?
Simon
--
+-------------------------+----------------------------------+
| Simon Lemieux | Website : http://www.666Mhz.net |
| Email : Sin### [at] 666Mhz net | POV-Ray, OpenGL, C++ and more... |
+-------------------------+----------------------------------+
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Simon Lemieux <lem### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
: have you ever asked a question about povray, a specific question and got the
: answer "Read the manual, that should answer your question" or "Try
: www.povray.org or www.irtc.org they got plenty of examples..." ??
No.
: I'm actually pretty good at povray and I read a lot of the
: manual and looked a some of the examples! This is a useless answer, why do
: people answer this kind of thing?
I don't remember any concrete example of seeing this kind of answer to
a very specific question which is not trivially answered in the documentation
of some (V)FAQ.
At least here, usually when people answer with an RTFM, it's a very trivial
thing that can be found directly in the documentation if the user just looked
a bit at it (eg. "how can I read a GIF and use it as an image map?").
Some (V)FAQs have answers to questions which are not so easily found (if
at all) in the povray documentation but oftenly asked by people. If the
question is directly answered in the (V)FAQ, it's not a bad thing to answer
with an URL to the correct answer (actually it saves time, bandwidth and
server resources).
Usually when someone asks something not found in the docs or faqs, or is
not trivially understood, then usually people answer properly.
Actually the problem in this news-server is a bit the other way around:
People answer too many trivial questions instead of just saying the chapter
to the documentation or an URL to the correct answer.
It's not a problem in itself, but when there are lots of "useless" answers
like this, it only consumes time and resources in vain.
--
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):_;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/
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Simon Lemieux wrote:
> have you ever asked a question about povray, a specific question and got the
> answer "Read the manual, that should answer your question" or "Try
> www.povray.org or www.irtc.org they got plenty of examples..." ?? I mean... I
> know that already! I'm actually pretty good at povray and I read a lot of the
> manual and looked a some of the examples! This is a useless answer, why do
> people answer this kind of thing?
Most often, the question itself shows that the user didn't bother at all to read the
manual, or doesn't know about the examples in the demos directory. Some questions are
also very vague, or general, with no simple answer.
I do agree, however that some of the knee-jerk RTFM answers are a little rude.
It's also true that some of the answers are so well hidden in the manual that even
experienced users may have trouble finding them.
G.
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Warp wrote:
> Simon Lemieux <lem### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
> : I'm actually pretty good at povray and I read a lot of the
> : manual and looked a some of the examples! This is a useless answer, why do
> : people answer this kind of thing?
>
> I don't remember any concrete example of seeing this kind of answer to
> a very specific question which is not trivially answered in the documentation
> of some (V)FAQ.
> At least here, usually when people answer with an RTFM, it's a very trivial
> thing that can be found directly in the documentation if the user just looked
> a bit at it (eg. "how can I read a GIF and use it as an image map?").
How about if we made a team of people willing to help novices with problems, even
if the answers were (in the opinion of a few) "trivially answered in the docs" ?
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"Simon Lemieux" <lem### [at] yahoocom> wrote in message
news:3A02B341.D95A4CC5@yahoo.com...
Well, I think the main point is to avoid rudeness unless the poster has been
rude or especially inconsiderate. In any particular situation, some people
may feel that a rtfm is an appropriate response, others that a more
considered answer is okay. All can respond to the post as they deem
appropriate.
I don't think I've ever winced at an rtfm, but I've often felt very
embarassed when a newbie gets given a rough ride in the way it's phrased.
POV is a complex program, and for many probably their first contact with any
kind of programming language. Having your first post met with withering
scorn must be a fairly debilitating experience.
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"Greg M. Johnson" <gre### [at] my-dejanewscom> wrote in message
news:3A02C974.7498ACB1@my-dejanews.com...
> How about if we made a team of people willing to help novices with
problems, even
> if the answers were (in the opinion of a few) "trivially answered in the
docs" ?
>
... or just promote the new-users ng more (and add a guideline against
rudeness and rtfms in replies).
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I agree, I think that if people are not willing to take the time explain something,
they
should not waste valuble bytes on the server.
Some people here are very good and I really look forward to their responses because I
will probably learn an awful lot. While on the other hand, some people just waste
everyones time.
Sometimes I feel that I could find the answer, but that I would learn more about the
topic if I ask here.
paul
>
--
-------------------------------------------#
Paul Daniel Jones
120 Chandlee Laboratory
Penn State University
814-865-2090
pdj### [at] psuedu
http://research.chem.psu.edu/glassgrp/paul
--------------------------------------------#
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On Fri, 03 Nov 2000 09:19:32 -0500, Greg M. Johnson wrote:
>
>How about if we made a team of people willing to help novices with problems, even
>if the answers were (in the opinion of a few) "trivially answered in the docs" ?
We have that. All the advanced users who subscribe to .newusers.
--
Ron Parker http://www2.fwi.com/~parkerr/traces.html
My opinions. Mine. Not anyone else's.
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In article <3A02C974.7498ACB1@my-dejanews.com>,
gre### [at] my-dejanewscom wrote:
> How about if we made a team of people willing to help novices with
> problems, even if the answers were (in the opinion of a few)
> "trivially answered in the docs" ?
http://tag.povray.org/
--
Christopher James Huff
Personal: chr### [at] maccom, http://homepage.mac.com/chrishuff/
TAG: chr### [at] tagpovrayorg, http://tag.povray.org/
<><
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"Simon Lemieux" <lem### [at] yahoocom> wrote :
>
> I'm sick of this! What about you?
When ever I am dissatisfied with the quality of service I am getting I
always try to get my money back. You would be surprised how often you can
get money refunded, coupons for additional service and a heartfelt apology.
Failing that, I try to make my own service more valu-plus. Maybe it will
rub off.
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I consider a simple "RTFM" answer rude and worthless. I also don't like a simple "read
the VFAQ." One, it doens't help that much, and two, it does not help us work together
as
a community. With a few exceptions, I consider all of us to be friends on this board,
and new users should be welcomed.
As far as answering a questions, I don't mind "Read Section 5.4.2 of the Manual" or
"look at question 34 of the VFAQ". Those arent' so bad.
Josh
Simon Lemieux wrote:
> Hi,
> have you ever asked a question about povray, a specific question and got the
> answer "Read the manual, that should answer your question" or "Try
> www.povray.org or www.irtc.org they got plenty of examples..." ?? I mean... I
> know that already! I'm actually pretty good at povray and I read a lot of the
> manual and looked a some of the examples! This is a useless answer, why do
> people answer this kind of thing? I've seen this here in povray's newsgroup
> server, but only a few times, while on MesaGL mailing list I see ONLY that kind
> of answer!
>
> I used to ask 5 specific questions about OpenGL, here they are:
> For my very simple program I need a few things such as:
> -Loading JPEG (still looking for an official library...)
> -Creating transparent textures
> -Knowing the mouse's position at every frame
> -Activation of a function when the mouse button is pressed
> -Activation of another function when the mouse button is released
>
> I would have expected something like:
> > -Loading JPEG (still looking for an official library...)
> I can't help you with that... Never done this...
>
> > -Creating transparent textures
> This is easy, you should read section 2.3 of the manual it explains this in
> detail, and if I can give you an hint try not to have textures over 256x256
> since some 3d cards do not support more!
>
> And so on...
>
> Instead I got:
> Take a look at www.opengl.org
>
> They have lots os example code to look at.
>
> ---------
>
> Am I stupid or what? Did you see One example that does this? I looked and
> found nothing, can you point me more directly?? Like
> www.opengl.org/examples/source/texture.html or something like that...
>
> I'm sick of this! What about you?
>
> Simon
>
> --
> +-------------------------+----------------------------------+
> | Simon Lemieux | Website : http://www.666Mhz.net |
> | Email : Sin### [at] 666Mhznet | POV-Ray, OpenGL, C++ and more... |
> +-------------------------+----------------------------------+
--
Josh English -- Lexiphanic Lethomaniac
eng### [at] spiritonecom
The POV-Ray Cyclopedia http://www.spiritone.com/~english/cyclopedia/
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Ron Parker wrote:
> We have that. All the advanced users who subscribe to .newusers.
Let me restate. I've seen it all:
1. Someone who *should* be told to RFTM and being rude about the solution not being
intuitive *to him* without sufficient thought or search. For these, let me offer my
thanks and apologies for what the POV-TAG has to put up with.
2. Someone being told to RFTM, sometimes with more effort spent in explaining why it's
a stupid question than in answering it, for something that is neither clear nor
obvious where to find in the docs. Hence Simon's very valid expression of frustration
and we don't need to dredge up examples. Some things aren't well defined in the docs;
some things are thoroughly explained, but with terms that are logically coined but not
obvious to the newbie: a Bryce-like progressive render is called "mosaic preview."
Many of the media terms are defined like "this term goes with that term" for some of
the hits when you search for them in the Windows Help program. For these, let me
offer my thanks and apologies for what the POV-TAG has to put up with, but also say
take it easy.
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Josh English wrote:
> As far as answering a questions, I don't mind "Read Section 5.4.2 of the Manual" or
> "look at question 34 of the VFAQ". Those arent' so bad.
When I point someone to the VFAQ I direct them to the exact passage
that applies to the question asked. If I point to the manual I often
copy and paste the relevant part into the body of my reply with additional
explanations as warranted.
The VFAQ took a lot of time and effort to write and IMO offers
a valuable service to the community. We wrote it so we don't have
to answer the same simple questions over and over and over again
here in the groups. But like any resource it is not all encompassing
and there are many times when a worded response is warranted and
I don't think you will find any lack of that around here.
--
Ken Tyler - 1400+ POV-Ray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/
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I'm not implying that there is a lack of it, but I've seen a few here and there and it
grates on my nerves. The way you answer questions is appropriate and complete. What
else
can we expect from you Ken?
Josh
Ken wrote:
> Josh English wrote:
>
> > As far as answering a questions, I don't mind "Read Section 5.4.2 of the Manual"
or
> > "look at question 34 of the VFAQ". Those arent' so bad.
>
> When I point someone to the VFAQ I direct them to the exact passage
> that applies to the question asked. If I point to the manual I often
> copy and paste the relevant part into the body of my reply with additional
> explanations as warranted.
> The VFAQ took a lot of time and effort to write and IMO offers
> a valuable service to the community. We wrote it so we don't have
> to answer the same simple questions over and over and over again
> here in the groups. But like any resource it is not all encompassing
> and there are many times when a worded response is warranted and
> I don't think you will find any lack of that around here.
>
> --
> Ken Tyler - 1400+ POV-Ray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
> http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/
--
Josh English -- Lexiphanic Lethomaniac
eng### [at] spiritonecom
The POV-Ray Cyclopedia http://www.spiritone.com/~english/cyclopedia/
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"Greg M. Johnson" wrote:
> For these, let me offer my thanks and apologies for what the POV-TAG
> has to put up with, but also say take it easy.
One problem we all suffer from is that we do no know who we are
responding to, how much knowlege they have, and exactly how much
detail to put into a reply. I am not going to spend an hour
composing a reply when a couple of sentences may be enough. Where
do we draw the line and how much is really expected from us ?
We often get compliments from the quality of support here and
for the most part I think these groups work quite well.
--
Ken Tyler - 1400+ POV-Ray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/
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Simon Lemieux wrote:
>
> I'm sick of this! What about you?
I'm sick of people who can't be bothered to make any effort on their own
behalf and just expect everything to be handed to them on a silver
platter with a big red ribbon for the asking. I think it's extremely
rude, lazy, and disrespectful of those people to demand more time and
patience from their superiors in the field than they're willing to put
in themselves, and they're lucky if they get off with a surly "RTFM" in
response.. what they need is a good kick in the ass for motivation.
Not that I'd accuse anyone here of being like this. I'm just presenting
the other POV.
-Xplo
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> I'm sick of people who can't be bothered to make any effort on their own
> behalf and just expect everything to be handed to them on a silver
> platter with a big red ribbon for the asking. I think it's extremely
> rude, lazy, and disrespectful of those people to demand more time and
> patience from their superiors in the field than they're willing to put
> in themselves, and they're lucky if they get off with a surly "RTFM" in
> response.. what they need is a good kick in the ass for motivation.
>
> Not that I'd accuse anyone here of being like this. I'm just presenting
> the other POV.
First, I'd say that mostly everybody here on povray's newsgroups are very kind
and answer correctly...
I just had to post this after I got an answer for OpenGL...
It's not that I "can't be bothered to make any effort on my own"... I just don't
want to reinvent the wheel... I mean there are a few ways to make a texture in
OpenGL... the first one I used made one polygon for every pixels... ;) that was
slow, and I knew it...
But using textures in opengl is very difficult (at least to me), and so I was
wondering about suggestions, hints, examples... specific ones... not the look at
www.opengl.org... fuck.. there are over a thousand examples there with links to
other sites... I don't even know what they do...
It's all about understanding the concept... I've read the whole manual, seen
some examples, and I still don't understand the concept! Can You make me
understand the concept? If you think I will understand the concept by reading
the manual, well you're wrong since I already read it... so a specific example
would be better, or writing the functions I should look information for...
----
BTW, I'm sorry if I was rude... I just couldn't stand that... The people here
on povray seems to Share their ideas, their discoveries... Povray is older than
OpenGL and on OpenGL everybody got the thing working by their own, everybody had
to reinvent the wheel... And I feel, they are jealous(?) of me asking how the
wheel is made? This is a feeling, I might be wrong...
IMHO,
Simon
--
+-------------------------+----------------------------------+
| Simon Lemieux | Website : http://www.666Mhz.net |
| Email : Sin### [at] 666Mhznet | POV-Ray, OpenGL, C++ and more... |
+-------------------------+----------------------------------+
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"Xplo Eristotle" <inq### [at] unforgettablecom> wrote in message
news:3A0313C0.B888F105@unforgettable.com...
<SNIP>
Mother, make the bad man go away.
Seriously, this seems very harsh (I'm not sure if you're serious or playing
devil's advocate). Yes, newcomers can ask some pretty basic questions that
are almost certainly answered in the vfaq or are prominent in the manual.
And, yes, they can end up posting in general rather than new users.
But they may well be new not just to POV but to the internet and computers
in general. Firm and friendly guidence in basic netiquette is appropriate,
but they don't deserve to be humiliated or scared witless.
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Tom Melly wrote:
>
> Seriously, this seems very harsh (I'm not sure if you're serious or playing
> devil's advocate).
I was serious. Abject stupidity and incompetence should be punished (or
at least ignored), not coddled and encouraged. In my experience,
punishment results in less incompetence; the punished either shape up,
or they find a field better suited to them. These are both positive
effects, IMO.
> But they may well be new not just to POV but to the internet and computers
> in general.
The common perception seems to be that not only *do* computers require
no training to use, but they *should* require no training to use, and
this is egregiously false on both counts.
When they get a computer, it usually comes with a manual. They should
RTFM. When there is software installed on their computer, it usually
comes with a manual. They should RTFM. If they can't be bothered to do
these things, then they deserve whatever they get.
-Xplo
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"Xplo Eristotle" <inq### [at] unforgettablecom> wrote in message
news:3A03887A.21CD6B8B@unforgettable.com...
<SNIP>
Mother, the bad man's still here. He's in my cupboard.
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