Did ya miss me? I'm back, and with a proposal for the community. No, no, not
one of those "send me money, I'll make you rich" schemes....

My life has finally come back around to the point where I can get back into
the community, and do something again. =D
I've still been semi-active in the IRC channel, and I've been honing my web
design and programming skills.

Here's the thought - http://povray-central.net  - Somewhat like the
twysted.net of old, but much, much better.

There are 2 reasons for my doing this.
1) I've noticed that there still is no major web-based information portals -
No major image galleries outside of the IRTC, etc. Other than povray.org,
there's not much, at least as far as I've found (checking through the Open
Directory Project yields 39 links.) I could be wrong, and if so, please
don't hesitate to correct me.

2) Experience. I'm working on a resume for web programming/design, and I'd
like to have several sites under my belt. My current project, which is about
95% complete, is http://anime-central.net - There's no content yet, but the
codebase is almost finished. I'm currently rewriting my link system, from
scratch, to give the functionality that I need.

Here are some of the features that I envision coding into the site, some of
which I've already done for anime central:

- Multi-page article system - entirely web-based, with an optional image on
each page. This is similar to tomshardware.com.
- Links Directory - Similar to the DMOZ.org system , but written entirely by
me. PHP is wonderful.
- Newsfeeds - from other graphics/povray related sites. - Possibly
newsgroups - but that would be a nightmare.
- Code Gallery - Searchable, subcategorized code snippets.
- Image Gallery - This is gonna be the fun one. All images stored in the
database, so no problems with duplicate filenames, etc.
- Threaded News Discussion, like slashdot.
- Software Reviews
- Benchmarks
- Tutorials (I have a good idea for this. =D )

A lot of what I'm programming is web interfaces to speed site updating. Why
use an editor, and FTP it over, when I can fill out a form, and it's
auto-magically updated?

Anyways - I wanted to get some discussion on this. One of the things that I
will request, is that I get more people than just me working on this - I
suffered from some major burnout last time. I don't mind doing the
programming - it's consistant, steady content that I have trouble with.

Noel "Twyst" Bundy
----------------------
http://anime-central.net
twy### [at] twystednet
ICQ# 60616248

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 26 Oct 2000 01:47:11 -0600, "Twyst" <twy### [at] twystednet> wrote:

>Noel "Twyst" Bundy
>----------------------
>http://anime-central.net
>twy### [at] twystednet
>ICQ# 60616248

Just a little question, this ICQ number (60616248) is registered to
some weed lover, are you sure you don't have the number wrong?


Peter Popov ICQ : 15002700
Personal e-mail : pet### [at] usanet
TAG      e-mail : pet### [at] tagpovrayorg

Post a reply to this message

Twyst wrote:

> 1) I've noticed that there still is no major web-based information portals -
> No major image galleries outside of the IRTC, etc.
> - Multi-page article system - entirely web-based, with an optional image on
> each page. This is similar to tomshardware.com.- Image Gallery - This is gonna
> be the fun one. All images stored in the
> database, so no problems with duplicate filenames, etc.
> - Tutorials (I have a good idea for this. =D )
>
> Anyways - I wanted to get some discussion on this. One of the things that I
> will request, is that I get more people than just me working on this - I
> suffered from some major burnout last time. I don't mind doing the
> programming - it's consistant, steady content that I have trouble with.
>
> Noel "Twyst" Bundy
> ----------------------
> http://anime-central.net
> twy### [at] twystednet
> ICQ# 60616248

There is a project somewhat like this already under works, with approval of
Chris Cason.  It is a project to collect every povray artist's own favorite 10
images and sell it as a CD to help fund the development activities of the
POV-Team.

http://10best.raytrace.com/10best.html
http://10best.raytrace.com/tracinstyles.html

I pushed for this because yes I too thought there ought to be some more freely
associated image galleries, that there is a lot of very cool stuff that only
sees a very limited audience because it doesn't fit into the criteria of the
IRTC. I envision the CD allowing for multiple ways of browsing the collection.

So look at this and see if there are ways your talents could help with or an
other project that you run complements this one.

Post a reply to this message

Hi Twyst!

Welcome back!

> Here's the thought - http://povray-central.net  - Somewhat
> like the twysted.net of old, but much, much better.

Sounds very interesting.

> There are 2 reasons for my doing this.
> 1) I've noticed that there still is no major web-based information
portals -

There are currently no "Ultimate POV-Ray Portal", but there's a few places
that specialises in different areas that I think cannot be done better on a
central portal than they're done now.

> - Multi-page article system - entirely web-based, with an optional
> image on each page. This is similar to tomshardware.com.

Sounds interesting, but what would the articles be about? (Tutorials are
already covered elsewhere in your list.)

> - Links Directory - Similar to the DMOZ.org system , but written
> entirely by me. PHP is wonderful.

The links section on povray.org is *very* extensive and it is well organised
by Ken Tyler. I don't see why we need a new links resource. Sure it would be
nice, but is it worth the effort when there's already an excellent one?

> - Newsfeeds - from other graphics/povray related sites. - Possibly
> newsgroups - but that would be a nightmare.

How would that be an advantage over using regular newsgroups?

> - Code Gallery - Searchable, subcategorized code snippets.

Sounds useful and convenient if coders would support it.

> - Image Gallery - This is gonna be the fun one. All images stored
> in the database, so no problems with duplicate filenames, etc.

Exactly what would the purpose of the gallery be? Would it be for all
POV-Ray users or restricted? Would it simply be a show-off gallery or should
it serve another purpose too? How much control would users have over how the
images are presented (with regard to comments about the images and so on)?

> - Threaded News Discussion, like slashdot.

What would the advantage over news.povray.org be?

> - Software Reviews

Sounds great!

> - Benchmarks

Nice.

> - Tutorials (I have a good idea for this. =D )

If people supported this it could be a great resource. I don't quite see
though what the big advantage is of having all tutorials at one place
instead of simply linking to different people's tutorials (like on
povray.org/links ).

> Anyways - I wanted to get some discussion on this.

I'd like to discuss this: What exactly is the great advantage of having
everything at one place? There are many general portals on the net, but I
think most people use not just one portal for all their Internet activities,
but use some services from one portal, others from another portals, and do
some things on their own.

The links collection on povray.org and these povray newsgroups are things
that I think work fine as it is now, and I don't see why we need a new links
collection or new newsgroups.

Don't get me wrong - I think your initiative is a great one; I'm just being
critical and joining the discussion as you requested :)

> One of the things that I will request, is that I get more
> people than just me working on this
> I don't mind doing the programming - it's consistant, steady
> content that I have trouble with.

I hope you will have success with the project.

Greetings,

Rune
--
\ Include files, tutorials, 3D images, raytracing jokes,
/ The POV Desktop Theme, and The POV-Ray Logo Contest can
\ all be found at http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk (updated October 9)
/ Also visit http://www.povrayusers.org

Post a reply to this message

"Peter Popov" <pet### [at] usanet> wrote in message
news:9lrfvs492v8cn473l3q42o6pr30s5eokd8@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 26 Oct 2000 01:47:11 -0600, "Twyst" <twy### [at] twystednet> wrote:
>
> >Noel "Twyst" Bundy
> >----------------------
> >http://anime-central.net
> >twy### [at] twystednet
> >ICQ# 60616248
>
> Just a little question, this ICQ number (60616248) is registered to
> some weed lover, are you sure you don't have the number wrong?

Woops! Mistyped! it's actually 61606248. heh. My bad!

Post a reply to this message

"Rune" <run### [at] inamecom> wrote in message
news:39f82bb0@news.povray.org...
> Hi Twyst!
>
> Welcome back!
>
> > Here's the thought - http://povray-central.net  - Somewhat
> > like the twysted.net of old, but much, much better.
>
> Sounds very interesting.
>
> > There are 2 reasons for my doing this.
> > 1) I've noticed that there still is no major web-based information
> portals -
>
> There are currently no "Ultimate POV-Ray Portal", but there's a few places
> that specialises in different areas that I think cannot be done better on
a
> central portal than they're done now.
>
> > - Multi-page article system - entirely web-based, with an optional
> > image on each page. This is similar to tomshardware.com.
>
> Sounds interesting, but what would the articles be about? (Tutorials are
> already covered elsewhere in your list.)
>

Oh, I don't know - Rants, articles on how things work, that sort of thing.

> > - Links Directory - Similar to the DMOZ.org system , but written
> > entirely by me. PHP is wonderful.
>
> The links section on povray.org is *very* extensive and it is well
organised
> by Ken Tyler. I don't see why we need a new links resource. Sure it would
be
> nice, but is it worth the effort when there's already an excellent one?
>

Ah, good point - I had forgotten about that links collection. =D

> > - Newsfeeds - from other graphics/povray related sites. - Possibly
> > newsgroups - but that would be a nightmare.
>
> How would that be an advantage over using regular newsgroups?

Some people don't have access to newsgroups... and by newsfeeds, I meant
stuff like headline grabbers, last 10 active newsgroup topics, that sort of
thing - not a replacement, but an enhancement.
>
> > - Code Gallery - Searchable, subcategorized code snippets.
>
> Sounds useful and convenient if coders would support it.
>
Yea, I'd  actually look at categorizing it like :

Functions | Objects | Textures | Animation

with subcategories in each, and possibly a preview image.

> > - Image Gallery - This is gonna be the fun one. All images stored
> > in the database, so no problems with duplicate filenames, etc.
>
> Exactly what would the purpose of the gallery be? Would it be for all
> POV-Ray users or restricted? Would it simply be a show-off gallery or
should
> it serve another purpose too? How much control would users have over how
the
> images are presented (with regard to comments about the images and so on)?
>

Well, I think it should be an open gallery, for showing off , with comments
, and possible ratings - something like www.ratemypicture.com - this way
people can get feedback, etc. One of the things I'll incorporate is a way to
'update' an image, so as the image progresses, people can see it. The nice
thing about doing web-based, as opposed to p.b.i, is that people just
randomly surfing by will go "oooh, pretty pictures, how can I make them?"

Note: At the time I wrote the original message, I didn't know about the
10best project.

> > - Threaded News Discussion, like slashdot.
>
> What would the advantage over news.povray.org be?

Again, web-accessible. Some people can't use newsreaders, due to
firewalling, or other silliness.
That, and there are people who surf the web to find interesting things.

>
> > - Software Reviews
>
> Sounds great!
>

Well, this'll be more of a "Here's the software. This is what it does.
Comments?" thing - so it's people who use it who can review it, and make
comments on it.

> > - Benchmarks
>
> Nice.

Well, It'd be started from scratch, with a few different benchmark files, to
give a more applicable benchmark - just because a computer can render
skyvase really quick, doesn't mean it can do media fast too.

>
> > - Tutorials (I have a good idea for this. =D )
>
> If people supported this it could be a great resource. I don't quite see
> though what the big advantage is of having all tutorials at one place
> instead of simply linking to different people's tutorials (like on
> povray.org/links ).
>

Well, the plan I have is to design a tutorial system, based on steps. Each
step has an optional image, and steps are displayed 5 per page. This allows
for a clear, consistant method of writing tutorials.


> > Anyways - I wanted to get some discussion on this.
>
> I'd like to discuss this: What exactly is the great advantage of having
> everything at one place? There are many general portals on the net, but I
> think most people use not just one portal for all their Internet
activities,
> but use some services from one portal, others from another portals, and do
> some things on their own.

Well, look at planetquake.com, for example. They have info on every aspect
of quake - from models to maps, configuration to customization. It's a
centralized jumping-off point, with constant updates and rants. Yes, there
are other resources you can use - IRC chat, newsgroups, ICQ, but many times,
if you're on the go, at someone else's house, or a cybercafe, you have to
install/configure a program to get on any of those, and many times you just
can't. So this becomes a viable alternative. That and there's a considerable
reduction in the 'spam' quota.

>
> The links collection on povray.org and these povray newsgroups are things
> that I think work fine as it is now, and I don't see why we need a new
links
> collection or new newsgroups.
>

Well, as I said, I had forgotten about the links collection by Ken-san.
(kenshin? oro? sorry .. anime reference) and I see no reason to set up 'new'
newsgroups.

> Don't get me wrong - I think your initiative is a great one; I'm just
being
> critical and joining the discussion as you requested :)
>

And I appreciate it - I've been out of touch for far too long, and how
better to get input?

> > One of the things that I will request, is that I get more
> > people than just me working on this
> > I don't mind doing the programming - it's consistant, steady
> > content that I have trouble with.
>
> I hope you will have success with the project.
>
> Greetings,
>
> Rune
> --
> \ Include files, tutorials, 3D images, raytracing jokes,
> / The POV Desktop Theme, and The POV-Ray Logo Contest can
> \ all be found at http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk (updated October 9)
> / Also visit http://www.povrayusers.org
>
>

Noel "Twyst" Bundy
----------------------
twy### [at] twystednet
http://anime-central.net
ICQ: 61606248

Post a reply to this message

A common layout and structure for tutorials, code, gallery etc. definitely has
it's advantages, but i doubt it everyone would be content with it.  For example
i would not like to be forced to press a tutorial i write into a predefined
mask.  

On the other hand a site covering a lot of things concerning povray would be
good especially for new users and people 'accidently' jumping in.

In any case i would prefer a more open concept without fixed rules for
everything.  What seems most important to me is to show the individual ideas and
opinions of many different people (that's for example what makes things like
DMOZ better than commercial web directories IMO)

Christoph

-- 
Christoph Hormann <chr### [at] gmxde>
Homepage: http://www.schunter.etc.tu-bs.de/~chris/

Post a reply to this message

Twyst,

Why not http://www.povray.org ?

In the whole 3+ years I have been using pov-ray, I have not seen any major
redesign of the pov-ray web site which I believe it desperately needs.  Most of
the ideas you have listed below could greatly enhance a user's experience at the
main Pov-Ray site, and enhance the official image of the program.  I think some
good solid work on the established Pov-Ray web site would benefit the community
and new users much more than a new site.

This is just my opinion! I have no idea what are the plans of the pov team with
regards to the web site.

Andrew C



> Here's the thought - http://povray-central.net  - Somewhat like the
> twysted.net of old, but much, much better.

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:36:21 -0700, Andrew Clinton wrote:
>In the whole 3+ years I have been using pov-ray, I have not seen any major
>redesign of the pov-ray web site which I believe it desperately needs.  

There was one.  It wasn't received very well, then got pulled for technical
reasons, and hasn't resurfaced.  Be careful what you ask for, you might get it.

-- 
Ron Parker   http://www2.fwi.com/~parkerr/traces.html
My opinions.  Mine.  Not anyone else's.

Post a reply to this message

Ron Parker wrote:

> There was one.  It wasn't received very well, then got pulled for technical
> reasons, and hasn't resurfaced.  Be careful what you ask for, you might get it.

Actually glad it was *technical* reasons and not the fussy complainers on c.g.r.r.

Post a reply to this message

Twyst wrote:

> > Exactly what would the purpose of the gallery be? Would it be for all
> > POV-Ray users or restricted? Would it simply be a show-off gallery or
> should
> > it serve another purpose too? How much control would users have over how
> the
> > images are presented (with regard to comments about the images and so on)?
> >
>
> Well, I think it should be an open gallery, for showing off , with comments
> , and possible ratings - something like www.ratemypicture.com - this way
> people can get feedback, etc. One of the things I'll incorporate is a way to
> 'update' an image, so as the image progresses, people can see it. The nice
> thing about doing web-based, as opposed to p.b.i, is that people just
> randomly surfing by will go "oooh, pretty pictures, how can I make them?"
>
> Note: At the time I wrote the original message, I didn't know about the
> 10best project.

I remember that your site was technically sharp--both very professional looking
and with lots of good ways to find the information.  I think I have a pretty
good idea for this whole project, and the structure for how the CD should be
laid out. But I've never been known for the looks of my web pages.    One
possibility once the images are all collected is for me to write the spec--be
your customer as it were-- and you deliver html pages which can be put on the CD
for sale.

Just an idear......

Post a reply to this message

If I remember correctly, all that was 'redesigned' in that makeover were the
colours on the site and the layout of the main page, as well as some font changes
(correct me if I'm wrong!).  I think a real redesign would involve new 'user
gallery' page, new 'hall of fame', new 'resources', 'questions', etc.  I mean
updating that stuff that hasn't changed, adding new stuff that would be useful, and
making the whole site more usable.

These days the only areas I ever visit are the 'newsgroups' page (which
surprisingly isn't even linked from the main page) and the excellent links
collection.

Andrew C


Ron Parker wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:36:21 -0700, Andrew Clinton wrote:
> >In the whole 3+ years I have been using pov-ray, I have not seen any major
> >redesign of the pov-ray web site which I believe it desperately needs.
>
> There was one.  It wasn't received very well, then got pulled for technical
> reasons, and hasn't resurfaced.  Be careful what you ask for, you might get it.
>
> --
> Ron Parker   http://www2.fwi.com/~parkerr/traces.html
> My opinions.  Mine.  Not anyone else's.

Post a reply to this message

Heh, well, I'm not all that great with graphics - I'm more of a web
'engineer' than I am an artist. But heck, anything is possible. I like node
systems - each node has several items and sub-nodes. (I prefer node to
category - it's more descriptive).

But if you're looking for a low-bandwidth, crisp sitelook, yea, I can help
you. =D

Twyst.

"Greg M. Johnson" <gre### [at] my-dejanewscom> wrote in message
news:39F89EE9.B8DD8B8E@my-dejanews.com...
> Twyst wrote:
>
> > > Exactly what would the purpose of the gallery be? Would it be for all
> > > POV-Ray users or restricted? Would it simply be a show-off gallery or
> > should
> > > it serve another purpose too? How much control would users have over
how
> > the
> > > images are presented (with regard to comments about the images and so
on)?
> > >
> >
> > Well, I think it should be an open gallery, for showing off , with
comments
> > , and possible ratings - something like www.ratemypicture.com - this way
> > people can get feedback, etc. One of the things I'll incorporate is a
way to
> > 'update' an image, so as the image progresses, people can see it. The
nice
> > thing about doing web-based, as opposed to p.b.i, is that people just
> > randomly surfing by will go "oooh, pretty pictures, how can I make
them?"
> >
> > Note: At the time I wrote the original message, I didn't know about the
> > 10best project.
>
> I remember that your site was technically sharp--both very professional
looking
> and with lots of good ways to find the information.  I think I have a
pretty
> good idea for this whole project, and the structure for how the CD should
be
> laid out. But I've never been known for the looks of my web pages.    One
> possibility once the images are all collected is for me to write the
spec--be
> your customer as it were-- and you deliver html pages which can be put on
the CD
> for sale.
>
> Just an idear......
>

Post a reply to this message

Well, my idea is to have user-contributed news/stuff. - I don't think that
forcing people to 'login' to submit stuff is a good plan, either. But I also
believe in moderation - Users submit news, it goes into a verification
queue, and the editors check it over, then approve it.

As for the 'predefined mask' - the system I have planned allows you to be
very freeform - There's no constraint on how many steps you use, or if you
must use an image, or even how big a step is.

The problem with not having a defined layout is abuse. If I allow, for
example, someone to simply type in their HTML page (which is a daunting task
for many) there is the inevitable chance that someone will abuse the system,
either for their amusement ('First-Post' syndrome, like slashdot suffers
from), or for personal gain (ie. link in a bunch of porn banners, or
something)

Basically, I want to make it so that anyone can submit an item - article,
tutorial, image, whatever - and then an editor reviews it and either
approves or disapproves of it.


Twyst

"Christoph Hormann" <Chr### [at] schunteretctu-bsde> wrote in
message news:39F87D96.261C080C@schunter.etc.tu-bs.de...
>
>
> A common layout and structure for tutorials, code, gallery etc. definitely
has
> it's advantages, but i doubt it everyone would be content with it.  For
example
> i would not like to be forced to press a tutorial i write into a
predefined
> mask.
>
> On the other hand a site covering a lot of things concerning povray would
be
> good especially for new users and people 'accidently' jumping in.
>
> In any case i would prefer a more open concept without fixed rules for
> everything.  What seems most important to me is to show the individual
ideas and
> opinions of many different people (that's for example what makes things
like
> DMOZ better than commercial web directories IMO)
>
> Christoph
>
> --
> Christoph Hormann <chr### [at] gmxde>
> Homepage: http://www.schunter.etc.tu-bs.de/~chris/

Post a reply to this message

All sounds like good stuff but:

Most of it sounds like a duplication of effort with both current and 
proposed projects.

Maybe it'd be better to offer your services towards helping in 
renovating www.povray.org which will include many of the features
that you talk about, but has the added advantage of working with
a team so the whole thing doesn't rely on you - which is why all
the progejcts of a similar nature in the past have 
failed/dissapeared because there's so much content to bring 
together and once up and running needs a considerable amount of 
maintenance no matter how much you automate the processes.  

Certain aspects of the current POV site need fixing and 
revamping, for example the software reviews link doesn't
work, the user galleries page hasn't changed in over a 
year I wonder how many of those links are still live? 
And the texture library though fairly comprehensive is very
monotonous, look through it for five minutes and you start
to fall asleep. 

Of course the jewel in the crown of www.povray.org has to be 
the new links section maintainte by our very own Uncle Ken. 

And when it comes to forums/chat, there's nothing better than
these news groups.  If someone's behind a firewall it's because
they're at work and probably shouldn't be reading these NGs 
anyway, and if they need to as part of their job they can go to 
the sys admin and get that access given to them.  Also I'm 
always against anything that requires a person to be on line 
for long periods of time, here in Europ we pay dearly for our
time on-line (through phone charges). 

Didn't you used to maintain the patch station, now that's something
that would be very useful. 

-- 
Cheers
Steve              email mailto:ste### [at] zeroppsuklinuxnet

%HAV-A-NICEDAY Error not enough coffee  0 pps. 

web http://www.zeropps.uklinux.net/

or  http://start.at/zero-pps

  1:33pm  up 16 days, 14:53,  2 users,  load average: 1.00, 1.00, 1.00

Post a reply to this message

> Here's the thought - http://povray-central.net  - Somewhat like the
> twysted.net of old, but much, much better.

Welcome back!  If povray.org was improved, it could be a central web site for
POV-Ray.
Brendan

Post a reply to this message

> If I remember correctly, all that was 'redesigned' in that makeover were the
> colours on the site and the layout of the main page, as well as some font changes
> (correct me if I'm wrong!).  I think a real redesign would involve new 'user

Not correct. The entire back-end was radically altered from a static HTML basis
to being almost completely dynamically-generated (using mod_perl, templates, and
data files). This included things such as the hall of fame etc, which would have
been MUCH easier to maintain.

So while it may have looked similar from the viewers perspective, nothing could
be further from the truth.

However, all this took more memory, and the new memory we added to the machine
was causing it to crash so it had to be yanked. We only recently (about three
weeks ago) got this put back (different brand of RAM, no more crashes).

That aside, I will not bring the new design back since it had problems with 256
color mode and too many people bitched about it. It will have to wait until I have
some free time to correct the colors. I am also considering (nothing concrete yet)
adding slashcode or some other news-type setup to the site. The server is already
equipped with everything it needs for this (apart from a time machine so I can
stuff 36 hours into a single day).

-- Chris

Post a reply to this message

> That aside, I will not bring the new design back since it had problems
with 256
> color mode and too many people bitched about it. It will have to wait
until I have
> some free time to correct the colors. I am also considering (nothing
concrete yet)
> adding slashcode or some other news-type setup to the site. The server is
already
> equipped with everything it needs for this (apart from a time machine so I
can
> stuff 36 hours into a single day).
>
> -- Chris
>
>

Might I recommend using PHPweblog? I much prefer PHP for webstuff than perl,
since it's faster, and uses less memory, especially if compiled into apache.
That's what I use (heavily modified, though) for http://anime-central.net.
The URL for PHPweblog is http://phpweblog.org

One of the nicest features of phpweblog is that it uses templates, and can
be changed on the fly, and it's relatively easy to add a new feature into
the system (like what I've been doing) and have it use the templates too.

Twyst

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let's see...
how about a contest for some site logo or something?

anyways...
about that slashdot similar thingie...

slashdot has support for special programs and script for like, mIRC and
stuff...
meaning it's possible to grab headlines directly from an updated database or
something...

as for the gallery... look at litestep.net
they have a commenting system, and a login thingie...

wouldnt that be great?

Zilvah

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