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Hi Povers!
Now after the LINUXTAG 2000 has ended at Sunday I'll give you a summary
of our work at the POV-Ray booth at the Linuxtag.
We (Christian Perle, Jan Theofel, Manuel Moser, Martin Trautmann, and
me) prepared this event for several weeks. We made Posters, Videos,
organized Computers two Beamers several hundred Flyers ...
We have been invited to this biggest european Linux convention to be
part of the opensource pavillion where projects like Debian, XFree86,
OpenBSD and sevral others resided. The event was free to everyone to
visit. No fees at all. Many big names where there ... IBM, Compaq, hp,
Siemens, O'Reilly, Redhat, Suse ... to name a few.
There were many lectures and many new things for Linux but no time for
us.
We presented a video containing IRTC anims (thanks to Neil Alexander,
H.E.Day, Glenn McCarter and John VanSickle for allowing me to copy their
work) which 20 min long and nice to look at and sevral pics from the
IRTC, promoting the site.
We had lot's of questions asked to us (modeller for Linux, conversion
routines, scripting) and I hope we were able to give satisfying answers.
It was good to see that POV-Ray is well known and that the interest was
quite high (our booth under siege).
Christian held a small lecture about POV-Ray that also had some good
response.
We had been invited by IBM and Compaq to render animations on their
Clusters (a 4 node AS6000 and a 8 node Alpha Cluster) which we did
happily during Linuxtag. :-)
The only more or less negative feedback had been about the license. All
but one person made friendly inquiries about the license and asked why
it is not GPL or something similiar and if there is hope that it could
change someday. The one not so friendly one walked down the aisle before
our booth and pointed the thumb down. To those who know the scene I say
only three letters ..... RMS.
We also tried to sell IRTC CDROMS for Chris but had not been all too
successful, so you people who love the IRTC, please buy them.
Some pictures can be found at:
http://www.zpg.ica.uni-stuttgart.de/~marc/pics.html
There are more but I don't have them now.
Povingly,
Marc
--
Marc Schimmler
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Thanks for the report, sounds like it was fun.
Could you clear up a couple of anacronyms for me?
GPL and RMS
Ta.
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On Thu, 06 Jul 2000 14:05:35 +0200, Marc Schimmler wrote:
>The one not so friendly one walked down the aisle before
>our booth and pointed the thumb down. To those who know the scene I say
>only three letters ..... RMS.
How very Roman of him. I wonder how many of his sycophants realize that
he has a Caesar complex.
--
Ron Parker http://www2.fwi.com/~parkerr/traces.html
My opinions. Mine. Not anyone else's.
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On Thu, 6 Jul 2000 13:37:38 +0100, Tom Melly wrote:
>Thanks for the report, sounds like it was fun.
>
>Could you clear up a couple of anacronyms for me?
>
>GPL and RMS
General Public License
Richard M. Stallman
For explanations of both, see www.fsf.org. Then look around til you find
the other side of the story, because it's apparently not all as rosy as FSF
would have you believe.
--
Ron Parker http://www2.fwi.com/~parkerr/traces.html
My opinions. Mine. Not anyone else's.
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Tom Melly wrote:
>
> Thanks for the report, sounds like it was fun.
>
> Could you clear up a couple of anacronyms for me?
>
> GPL and RMS
>
> Ta.
GPL - Gnu Public license ( http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html )
Well RMS ... Just look at http://www.gnu.org
He calls himself Saint IGNUcius
You find him there ... believe me :-)
Marc
--
Marc Schimmler
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"Ron Parker" <ron### [at] povray org> wrote in message
news:slr### [at] linuxparkerrfwicom...
> On Thu, 6 Jul 2000 13:37:38 +0100, Tom Melly wrote:
> >Thanks for the report, sounds like it was fun.
> >
> >Could you clear up a couple of anacronyms for me?
> >
> >GPL and RMS
>
> General Public License
> Richard M. Stallman
>
> For explanations of both, see www.fsf.org. Then look around til you find
> the other side of the story, because it's apparently not all as rosy as
FSF
> would have you believe.
>
Well, I had a quick read, and on the surface I can't see any obvious
distinction between the pov-ray terms and gpl - what issues have got rms's
goat? The only area that seems different is that IIRC no program based on
POV can be charged for, whereas GPL allows for charging, but not
restricting.
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On Thu, 6 Jul 2000 14:03:38 +0100, Tom Melly wrote:
>Well, I had a quick read, and on the surface I can't see any obvious
>distinction between the pov-ray terms and gpl - what issues have got rms's
>goat? The only area that seems different is that IIRC no program based on
>POV can be charged for, whereas GPL allows for charging, but not
>restricting.
You can't reuse POV's code in other projects. That's the one he doesn't like,
if I had to guess. Certain people are forbidden from distributing POV. There
is a limit to how much money you can charge for a copy. Certain modifications
to the source code are not allowed, even in a custom version. You need to get
the permission of the Team to distribute it in certain ways.
There are a few differences, but none that affect the average POV user too
significantly.
--
Ron Parker http://www2.fwi.com/~parkerr/traces.html
My opinions. Mine. Not anyone else's.
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Ron Parker wrote:
>
> You can't reuse POV's code in other projects. That's the one he doesn't like,
> if I had to guess. Certain people are forbidden from distributing POV. There
> is a limit to how much money you can charge for a copy. Certain modifications
> to the source code are not allowed, even in a custom version. You need to get
> the permission of the Team to distribute it in certain ways.
>
After the incident a friend made a good proposal for a license. Make it
like the
GPL but exclude the FSF and RMS from it. :-) Ave Imperator!
Marc
--
Marc Schimmler
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Serge LAROCQUE wrote:
>
> > only three letters ..... RMS.
>
> Does he still have long hair? (I never met him, only saw his photo in a book
> "Voices from the Open Source community" (IIRC))
Like at:
http://www.stallman.org/rms.jpg
Marc
--
Marc Schimmler
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Marc Schimmler <sch### [at] icauni-stuttgartde> wrote:
: The only more or less negative feedback had been about the license. All
: but one person made friendly inquiries about the license and asked why
: it is not GPL or something similiar and if there is hope that it could
: change someday. The one not so friendly one walked down the aisle before
: our booth and pointed the thumb down. To those who know the scene I say
: only three letters ..... RMS.
The ideology of the Open Source Software world is in principle good. Their
fight about oppressing and dictatorshop-like companies like microsoft is
remarkable (see http://www.opensource.org/halloween/ to get an idea of this).
However, judging from the behaviour described above, their ideology has
converted into fanatism, making (at least some of) them almost as bad as
those oppressing companies themselves.
Well, we can only deduce that no matter what ideology, there will always
be fanatics.
--
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/
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Warp wrote:
>
> The ideology of the Open Source Software world is in principle good. Their
> fight about oppressing and dictatorshop-like companies like microsoft is
> remarkable (see http://www.opensource.org/halloween/ to get an idea of this).
> However, judging from the behaviour described above, their ideology has
> converted into fanatism, making (at least some of) them almost as bad as
> those oppressing companies themselves.
>
> Well, we can only deduce that no matter what ideology, there will always
> be fanatics.
>
It is a fatal (if not lethal :) ) error to connect RMS with the
Opensource
movement! RMS and ESR (Eric S. Raymond) are not the closest friends in
the
world.I prefer ESR though, because he is less idealistic (religious)
about
software.I try to keep away from extremists which RMS sure is.
Marc
--
Marc Schimmler
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Marc Schimmler <sch### [at] icauni-stuttgartde> wrote:
: It is a fatal (if not lethal :) ) error to connect RMS with the
: Opensource
: movement!
Sorry if I offended anyone :)
--
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/
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In article <3964b22e@news.povray.org> , Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
> Well, we can only deduce that no matter what ideology, there will always
> be fanatics.
Unfortunately the FSF GNU project is lead by a fanatic.
If you look closer at Richard Stallman rants you will always find lists like
this <http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/apsl.html> (taken as example because
this is one of the very few I ever read):
>>
* It is not a true copyleft, because it allows linking with other files
which may be entirely proprietary.
* It is unfair, since it requires you to give Apple rights to your changes
which Apple will not give you for its code.
* It is incompatible with the GPL.
<<
Of particular interest is his last "point", which is no point at all. While
the extremist attitude outlined here might sound OK because he is talking
about individual freedom (to use, copy, etc software). Simply put, the idea
that comes up in my mind is the sentence "It is not GPL, it is no good
software" - now change "GPL" to "German", and "software" to "person" and go
back in history :-( Admitted, he is a "left extremist".
Thorsten
____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde
Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org
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Serge LAROCQUE wrote:
> Does he still have long hair? (I never met him, only saw his photo in a book
> "Voices from the Open Source community" (IIRC))
Contrast with the pictures at
http://www.mailbag.com/users/mtgordon/pictures.html ;-)
(note: the ponytail isn't really visible in either picture, but it goes
to the middle of my back)
-Mark Gordon
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Thorsten Froehlich wrote:
>
> Unfortunately the FSF GNU project is lead by a fanatic.
> ...
> Admitted, he is a "left extremist".
This used to bother me, this whole left extremist thing.
In lawyer terms, the ACLU [1] are a bunch of nut cakes who
will defend to the death any very-left cause. This is a waste.
But then i realized that if they didn't do this thing, the
radical right would declare the death penalty for anyone
reverse engineering code (or playing DVDs on Linux). I think
both sides are a necessary evil so that those of us in the
middle can exist (mostly) peacefully.
It's like labor unions. Unions are bad, evil, corrupt. But,
take them away and management craps all over the workers.
My favorite RMSism was when he invaded the linux-kernel list
4-5 years ago insisting that Linux be called liGNUx or GNU/Linux.
We argued that by his rules, we could call it whatever we wanted,
but he didn't buy that.
BTW: i believe the name St. iGNUsious was given to him by salon.com
I'm surprised RMS was at LINUXTAG. He usually doesn't get invited
anywhere. The moderate left leadership of the FSF/Open Source movement
try to keep him gagged in a closet, letting him out only to accept
honorary doctorates from University D'Jour.
ESR is the spokesperson of choice. ( http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/travelrules.html
and upcoming talks: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/speaking.html )
[1] American Civil Liberties Union
--
dik _,--"
`-._ ________-_______ "----
_----'--'--------------------------------'--'----_
//_| | \ dic### [at] buckosoftcom / | |_\\
(_____|_|__= Guilford CT +1.203.458.0389 =__|_|_____)
_\_____=___ http://www.buckosoft.com ___=_____/_
\/-(o)-~~-(o)-~~-(o)-`------'-(o)-~~-(o)-~~-(o)-\/
Early Net Poetry:
Wustl, Wustl, ERR RIP MIT BOOT, BIND Wustl
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Dick Balaska wrote:
>
> This used to bother me, this whole left extremist thing.
> In lawyer terms, the ACLU [1] are a bunch of nut cakes who
> will defend to the death any very-left cause. This is a waste.
> But then i realized that if they didn't do this thing, the
> radical right would declare the death penalty for anyone
> reverse engineering code (or playing DVDs on Linux). I think
> both sides are a necessary evil so that those of us in the
> middle can exist (mostly) peacefully.
>
> It's like labor unions. Unions are bad, evil, corrupt. But,
> take them away and management craps all over the workers.
>
> My favorite RMSism was when he invaded the linux-kernel list
> 4-5 years ago insisting that Linux be called liGNUx or GNU/Linux.
> We argued that by his rules, we could call it whatever we wanted,
> but he didn't buy that.
>
> BTW: i believe the name St. iGNUsious was given to him by salon.com
>
> I'm surprised RMS was at LINUXTAG. He usually doesn't get invited
> anywhere. The moderate left leadership of the FSF/Open Source movement
> try to keep him gagged in a closet, letting him out only to accept
> honorary doctorates from University D'Jour.
> ESR is the spokesperson of choice. ( http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/travelrules.html
> and upcoming talks: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/speaking.html )
>
> [1] American Civil Liberties Union
>
I contacted RMS directly when a colleague of mine mailed about licenses
with
him and asked him why he didn't used arguments instead of gestures in
regard
of POV-Ray. I have to say that his response had been very moderate and
he
explained in understandable why he acted like he did which cooled down
my
anger a lot.
What's following up now is a thing of the POV-Ray team and hopefully
something good comes out in the end. Part of me understands him when I
look back at his history.
I gues he had been invited due to the fact that the Debian team is
strongly
involved in the organization of LINUXTAG.
If you like to see some more pictures commented in english look at
http://www.guug.de/~winni/linux/tag/story/
WARNING!!! Huge page !!
All the Best,
Marc
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On Wed, 12 Jul 2000 22:28:35 +0200 Marc Schimmler
<sch### [at] icauni-stuttgartde> wrote:
>What's following up now is a thing of the POV-Ray team and hopefully
>something good comes out in the end.
Hi, Marc. When and if the POV-Team changes our licensing arrangement,
it will be because we feel it is in the best interests of POV-Ray. We
may very well do so when *we* are ready.
If Mr. Stallman does not like our current licensing he is FREE to feel
that way. If he wishes to express his opinions in public using hand
gestures than he is FREE to do so. We don't lose sleep at night,
wondering if POV-Ray has lived up to Mr. Stallman's expectations of what
software should be. He hasn't hurt our feelings <s>.
I do thank you for that story about Mr. Stallman's exploits at
LINUXTAG. I found it to be quite amusing. I just hope that he did not
cause you unwarranted embarrassment or humiliation in front of other
people. You were doing a very nice thing, representing POV-Ray in a good
light. We thank you for that, Marc.
--
Alan - ako### [at] povrayorg - a k o n g <at> p o v r a y <dot> o r g
http://www.povray.org - Home of the Persistence of Vision Ray Tracer
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Marc Schimmler wrote:
>
> http://www.guug.de/~winni/linux/tag/story/
>
> WARNING!!! Huge page !!
Wow, from the "its a small world" category, all
of Winni's mail goes through my server :)
Nice to see he got a new camera.
dik
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Alan Kong wrote:
>
> On Wed, 12 Jul 2000 22:28:35 +0200 Marc Schimmler
> <sch### [at] icauni-stuttgartde> wrote:
>
> >What's following up now is a thing of the POV-Ray team and hopefully
> >something good comes out in the end.
>
> Hi, Marc. When and if the POV-Team changes our licensing arrangement,
> it will be because we feel it is in the best interests of POV-Ray. We
> may very well do so when *we* are ready.
I never would have assumed something else! In fact I made it very clear
that I am NOT a member of the POV-Ray team and that I speak only as a
user. I also said that probably 90% of the user don't care about the
license because it doesn't interferes with their use.
>
> If Mr. Stallman does not like our current licensing he is FREE to feel
> that way. If he wishes to express his opinions in public using hand
> gestures than he is FREE to do so. We don't lose sleep at night,
> wondering if POV-Ray has lived up to Mr. Stallman's expectations of what
> software should be.
>
<g> Neither would I.
He is not the measure of everything but despite his behaviour there is
something to think about in his work. I pointed out to him that he's
not helping his ideas in the way he acted.
> I do thank you for that story about Mr. Stallman's exploits at
> LINUXTAG. I found it to be quite amusing. I just hope that he did not
> cause you unwarranted embarrassment or humiliation in front of other
> people.
It takes more than RMS to humiliate me but I have been angered at that
moment in a very big way. That's also been the reason why I contacted
him.
>You were doing a very nice thing, representing POV-Ray in a good
> light. We thank you for that, Marc.
It's just that I try to give back a piece of the fun I have with
POV-Ray. It's a kind of saying "Thank you!"
All the Best,
Marc
--
Marc Schimmler
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Dick Balaska wrote:
>
> Marc Schimmler wrote:
>
> >
> > http://www.guug.de/~winni/linux/tag/story/
> >
> > WARNING!!! Huge page !!
>
> Wow, from the "its a small world" category, all
> of Winni's mail goes through my server :)
>
> Nice to see he got a new camera.
>
> dik
I noticed the Xpilot address in his mail and your xpilot
link at your homepage but didn't made the connection.
Yes the internet can be a very small world indeed.
All the Best,
Marc
--
Marc Schimmler
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